Tree Mafia [GAME OVER]

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I would encourage those who've already voted for Diiny to at least pause for a moment and carefully consider their vote and their mindset, because this is one of those wagons that could easily drift into a lynch while everyone complacently just waits. That's rarely ideal -- critically assess the situation and ensure you're really giving him a fair opportunity.

I wish I had more time to personally address this in a thorough way instead of just rendering advice, but yanno. I gotta get to sleep now, but I'll be back tomorrow with plenty of time to spare. I hope it continues to be an active discussion.

[Epignosis]

@Epignosis:

I can understand why someone might perceive your move against Floyd to be one that promotes a policy lynch. Actually your stated reason for placing the vote is rather policy-oriented.

Far too many times have I witnessed Mafia coast to endgame by staying out of it. If Floyd is Mafia, then I have no intention of letting him coast. If he's a civilian, then he's not contributing and wins if he's dead anyway (from what I understand).

The highlighted portion is the definition of a lurker policy lynch. Your vote is motivated by his inactivity -- his chronic inactivity (suggests to me that your perspective extends beyond the boundaries of this game, if that's untrue then say so). Inactive players can be anything and lynching them is by nature a roll of the dice. For this reason, a vote for anyone who has actually done something suspicious, however one might define that -- think in Zebra's mindset here, would be a better vote.

Zebra has expressed plenty of suspicions, so his preferred votes shouldn't need elaborating.

Considering what I posted, this is a curious thing on which to concentrate. No comment on a2z's zebra shit response to FZ.?

I only cited the above as a hypocritical example of misrepresentation on zebra's part. My vote of Floyd is decidedly NOT personal (policy is even the dictionary antonym of personal). zebra is therefore misrepresenting me. My point is that zebra's suspicion of FZ. is hypocritical- at best.

[motel room]

firmly on motel. Sorsha's cool.

ohh no you dont, explain why there cowboy

[Enrique]

u first tiger

[a2thezebra]

Moving to FZ for self prez and that.

Someone tell me why they're voting me when Wilgy is literally just lying and there's no such thing as a non vt peek

Because that doesn't make you good.

Elaborate, pls, are you saying it makes me look bad?

Maybe there are reasons for suspecting you besides Wilgy's claim (except for FZ of course). After all, his claim didn't even happen until after Floyd had already jumped on your "wagon" remember?

[a2thezebra]

(policy is even the dictionary antonym of personal).

Must...resist...temptation...to start pointless unnecessary semantics war with Epi...does this give you a better idea of why I decided to enter observer mode, JJJ?

[Epignosis]

(policy is even the dictionary antonym of personal).

Must...resist...temptation...to start pointless unnecessary semantics war with Epi...does this give you a better idea of why I decided to enter observer mode, JJJ?

If something is based on policy, then it isn't personal. Simple.

If that's not the case, then stop misusing the word "policy."

[MacDougall]

I would encourage those who've already voted for Diiny to at least pause for a moment and carefully consider their vote and their mindset, because this is one of those wagons that could easily drift into a lynch while everyone complacently just waits. That's rarely ideal -- critically assess the situation and ensure you're really giving him a fair opportunity.

I wish I had more time to personally address this in a thorough way instead of just rendering advice, but yanno. I gotta get to sleep now, but I'll be back tomorrow with plenty of time to spare. I hope it continues to be an active discussion.

Counterpoint, Diiny is scum and you are being contrarian for reasons.

[motel room]

u first tiger

right, i'm suss of you because of your little hop away from your Diiny vote to voting Wilgy after his cop claim, to getting back on Diiny. Reads like you didn't know where to sit and now have a theory involving them both being scum.

[motel room]

Probably gonna switch to FZ for self preservation soon

Moving to FZ for self prez and that.

Someone tell me why they're voting me when Wilgy is literally just lying and there's no such thing as a non vt peek

Pretty soon I'm gonna change my vote. Heeere goes, look..

This is a 48 hour day. Self preservation now?

[a2thezebra]

"curious thing to concentrate"

AHEM. Alright guys, lemme clarify what I meant to say, for Epi's sake.

*clears throat*

Epi is advocating a non-town-benefiting lynch based on a more-likely-than-not-personal issue with Floyd? Is that better?

Nope, never mind, I can't do this. I can't bullshit so blatantly as this. It's a policy lynch, and it's for personal reasons. There's no way to sugarcoat it. If a politician is advocating for harsher policies against abortion, that might be because they have a personal issue with it that relates to their morals. If a player personally feels that another player has chronic non-participation problems, they might advocate a policy lynch against that player. Simple.

[MacDougall]

"curious thing to concentrate"

AHEM. Alright guys, lemme clarify what I meant to say, for Epi's sake.

*clears throat*

Epi is advocating a non-town-benefiting lynch based on a more-likely-than-not-personal issue with Floyd? Is that better?

Nope, never mind, I can't do this. I can't bullshit so blatantly as this. It's a policy lynch, and it's for personal reasons. There's no way to sugarcoat it. If a politician is advocating for harsher policies against abortion, that might be because they have a personal issue with it that relates to their morals. If a player personally feels that another player has chronic non-participation problems, they might advocate a policy lynch against that player. Simple.

In games past we have had no qualms lynching him (when scum and not scum) due to his in game contributions however lax they are.

Ergo I feel that Epi's rationalisation that we must lynch him day 1 because of a pereceived lack of input and/or the inferred inability for civs to read into his intentions is actually an incorrect rationalisation and one that coming from who it's coming from is one that I can easily see being scum attempting to not try very hard at all on day 1 because Epignosis has been privy to almost all examples to the contrary of the point he is trying to demonstrate.

In and of itself is low content production a reason to lynch a player on day 1 as a policy? If yes, is Epignosis the type to attempt this on day 1, a particularly active healthy day 1. If no, is Epignosis the type to push for a fallacious policy lynch?

If low content production is a good policy lynch reason, then let's argue whether Floyd genuinely is a low content producer? I would say no for the purposes of analysing him. While sheer volume is down on most other players, he has a tendency for posting things that are quite easy to read into. So again, for Epignosis to postulate that he is the type of low poster that must be lynched day 1 lest he become a problem, which is the inference of a policy lynch, irks me greatly.

Ergo Epignosis is now a bad guy to me. Take that Epignosis. Take that right in the batty.

[a2thezebra]

I'm actually somewhere between neutral and town on Epignosis, I just think he's putting semantics on too high of a pedestal. He didn't even realize I was being self-deprecating with the Ayn Rand comment.

[MacDougall]

I'm actually somewhere between neutral and town on Epignosis, I just think he's putting semantics on too high of a pedestal. He didn't even realize I was being self-deprecating with the Ayn Rand comment.

He is a busy boy. So perhaps he just phoning it in.

That being said NAY I will not be allowing excuses of such nature. Epignosis you are a bad guy. Core bad. Bad to the marrow.

[a2thezebra]

I'm actually somewhere between neutral and town on Epignosis, I just think he's putting semantics on too high of a pedestal. He didn't even realize I was being self-deprecating with the Ayn Rand comment.

He is a busy boy. So perhaps he just phoning it in.

That being said NAY I will not be allowing excuses of such nature. Epignosis you are a bad guy. Core bad. Bad to the marrow.

Are you advocating a policy lynch? :P

[Enrique]

u first tiger

right, i'm suss of you because of your little hop away from your Diiny vote to voting Wilgy after his cop claim, to getting back on Diiny. Reads like you didn't know where to sit and now have a theory involving them both being scum.

I want to hear YOUR opinion on Diiny.

For the record, I've always been perfectly okay with a Diiny lynch. Wilgy did look more dangerous for a bit, but really, as long as we get a bad guy today there's no rush. Lynching DrWilgy is taking too big a risk atm when we know so little about what he's trying to do.

I think Diiny is scum. I think DrWilgy most likely is but until Diiny is gone, we don't want to lynch him.

[motel room]

u first tiger

right, i'm suss of you because of your little hop away from your Diiny vote to voting Wilgy after his cop claim, to getting back on Diiny. Reads like you didn't know where to sit and now have a theory involving them both being scum.

I want to hear YOUR opinion on Diiny.

For the record, I've always been perfectly okay with a Diiny lynch. Wilgy did look more dangerous for a bit, but really, as long as we get a bad guy today there's no rush. Lynching DrWilgy is taking too big a risk atm when we know so little about what he's trying to do.

I think Diiny is scum. I think DrWilgy most likely is but until Diiny is gone, we don't want to lynch him.

edgy as it may be I'm not as certain Diiny is scum

Why are you suspicious of me like you said?

[MacDougall]

u first tiger

right, i'm suss of you because of your little hop away from your Diiny vote to voting Wilgy after his cop claim, to getting back on Diiny. Reads like you didn't know where to sit and now have a theory involving them both being scum.

I want to hear YOUR opinion on Diiny.

For the record, I've always been perfectly okay with a Diiny lynch. Wilgy did look more dangerous for a bit, but really, as long as we get a bad guy today there's no rush. Lynching DrWilgy is taking too big a risk atm when we know so little about what he's trying to do.

I think Diiny is scum. I think DrWilgy most likely is but until Diiny is gone, we don't want to lynch him.

edgy as it may be I'm not as certain Diiny is scum

Why are you suspicious of me like you said?

U r bad 2 the bown.

[Enrique]

u first tiger

right, i'm suss of you because of your little hop away from your Diiny vote to voting Wilgy after his cop claim, to getting back on Diiny. Reads like you didn't know where to sit and now have a theory involving them both being scum.

I want to hear YOUR opinion on Diiny.

For the record, I've always been perfectly okay with a Diiny lynch. Wilgy did look more dangerous for a bit, but really, as long as we get a bad guy today there's no rush. Lynching DrWilgy is taking too big a risk atm when we know so little about what he's trying to do.

I think Diiny is scum. I think DrWilgy most likely is but until Diiny is gone, we don't want to lynch him.

edgy as it may be I'm not as certain Diiny is scum

Why are you suspicious of me like you said?

The way you're dodging questions and overall saying as little as possible, misplaced faith on Wilgy, vote on FZ. You haven't given me one reason to trust you.

[motel room]

u first tiger

right, i'm suss of you because of your little hop away from your Diiny vote to voting Wilgy after his cop claim, to getting back on Diiny. Reads like you didn't know where to sit and now have a theory involving them both being scum.

I want to hear YOUR opinion on Diiny.

For the record, I've always been perfectly okay with a Diiny lynch. Wilgy did look more dangerous for a bit, but really, as long as we get a bad guy today there's no rush. Lynching DrWilgy is taking too big a risk atm when we know so little about what he's trying to do.

I think Diiny is scum. I think DrWilgy most likely is but until Diiny is gone, we don't want to lynch him.

edgy as it may be I'm not as certain Diiny is scum

Why are you suspicious of me like you said?

The way you're dodging questions and overall saying as little as possible, misplaced faith on Wilgy, vote on FZ. You haven't given me one reason to trust you.

That's a lot of things to be dodging that I've done made a stand on. Not buying it.

My vote on FZ was from the weird defensiveness of that wager she dropped so early on. Will it stay? Let's see.

Why did you vote Diiny in the first place?

[TheFloyd73]

It's clearly an omgus just without my vote on him. I pressure him, he calls me hypocritical (incorrectly) and leaves after, content with flinging his vote onto the only wagon quickly behind the first two votes.

Look at the actual posts, I make a fair analysis of the guy, and if that wasn't fair enough after his vote I explain my stance further. Why did you see why he voted for me? Because I was the wagon and he's looking for an easy place to drop dat vote? Because I totally agree

Excuse me? Am I not permitted to engage in social activities and my essential education?
That is insanely rude of you to suggest I call you hypocritical (which I didn't) and leave.

Pet Sounds Floyd posts

He got decently involved and even put up a rainbow, but on Day 1 he was pretty quiet.

Bare in mind I'm still trying to find my feet. Usually if I notice something I want to make noted, someone already beats me to it. It also doesn't help I'm on a different time zone to everyone, the "rush hour" here tends to be while I'm at school, which is pretty inconvenient when you've got teachers breathing down your back.

The MacDougall mega list of confirmed scum and confirmed townies

Confirmed townies;

1. Enrique
2. Zebra

Confirmed scum;

1. Diiny
2. FZ

Can't disagree with that.

I think Diiny is scum. I think DrWilgy most likely is but until Diiny is gone, we don't want to lynch him.

Can't disagree with that either.

At the moment, Diiny, Wilgy and FZ are on my scum radar.

[FZ.]

Out of all the votes on me, Sorsha's seems the most opportunistic. I said that the exact reason I'm choosing to trust Wilgy's information is the fact that in the game she's talking about, I almost saved the baddie because I was looking anywhere but the obvious information. It was a bad game on my part, but in my defence, the roles weren't as simple as this game. The fact that Sorsha chose to ignore my post and just latch on my other posts, makes me her big time.

[DrWilgy]

Looks like civ Floyd to me...

What puts me on your scumdar Floyd?

[FZ.]

u first tiger

right, i'm suss of you because of your little hop away from your Diiny vote to voting Wilgy after his cop claim, to getting back on Diiny. Reads like you didn't know where to sit and now have a theory involving them both being scum.

I want to hear YOUR opinion on Diiny.

For the record, I've always been perfectly okay with a Diiny lynch. Wilgy did look more dangerous for a bit, but really, as long as we get a bad guy today there's no rush. Lynching DrWilgy is taking too big a risk atm when we know so little about what he's trying to do.

I think Diiny is scum. I think DrWilgy most likely is but until Diiny is gone, we don't want to lynch him.

edgy as it may be I'm not as certain Diiny is scum

Why are you suspicious of me like you said?

The way you're dodging questions and overall saying as little as possible, misplaced faith on Wilgy, vote on FZ. You haven't given me one reason to trust you.

That's a lot of things to be dodging that I've done made a stand on. Not buying it.

My vote on FZ was from the weird defensiveness of that wager she dropped so early on. Will it stay? Let's see.

Why did you vote Diiny in the first place?

My wager was because zebra was annoying me. I admit. Sorry I can't stay cool when people are so full of shit. It's a bad habit I'm trying to lose, but no success yet.

[Sorsha]

Out of all the votes on me, Sorsha's seems the most opportunistic. I said that the exact reason I'm choosing to trust Wilgy's information is the fact that in the game she's talking about, I almost saved the baddie because I was looking anywhere but the obvious information. It was a bad game on my part, but in my defence, the roles weren't as simple as this game. The fact that Sorsha chose to ignore my post and just latch on my other posts, makes me her big time.

I suppose I should give you credit for not playing like you did in that game.

I don't believe that wilgy got a peek at a baddie though.

[Diiny]

It's clearly an omgus just without my vote on him. I pressure him, he calls me hypocritical (incorrectly) and leaves after, content with flinging his vote onto the only wagon quickly behind the first two votes.

Look at the actual posts, I make a fair analysis of the guy, and if that wasn't fair enough after his vote I explain my stance further. Why did you see why he voted for me? Because I was the wagon and he's looking for an easy place to drop dat vote? Because I totally agree

Excuse me? Am I not permitted to engage in social activities and my essential education?

Stop trying to make it seem like that's my line of reasoning. You're either taking offense for no reason or deliberately misinterpreting what I'm saying. We all have social lives and things to do, Floyd. And yet, here we all are. I'm not even saying I wouldn't be ok with you flat out missing a day because of other shit. This is just a game, after all. But it's how you use the time you're on here (and you were on for a good while) that is telling. The activity you had on that day was nothing. Your vote for me isn't made ANY better by your lack of time. You could've easily told the thread you were busy like a couple of people have done already. But no, you choose to bring it up now without warning in an attempt to besmirch me.

Floyd, say something game relevant please

Because this is surely game relevant.

If a tree wins a poll in the forest but nobody is around to hear it, does it get lynched?

Dinny

That is insanely rude of you to suggest I call you hypocritical (which I didn't) and leave.

Maybe you didn't literally say it but that was your reason for voting. Unless it's not, in which case I'm interested as to why you are. Is it because the mechanic that doesn't exist says I'm scum?

[Diiny]

...don't call me rude, man.

[Diiny]

folks, you really need to elaborate why you're voting for me so I can convince you otherwise. Let's start day 1 with a scum lynch.

[Diiny]

FZ's grappling with Wilgy makes sense to me, it's a confusing situation, and FZ strikes me as someone wanting to get to the bottom of it quick. What gives me more pause is her stance on me which isn't very solid. I'd be glad to see someone say I wasn't bad normally, but she seemed to want to stay out of the entire conflict, possibly because she knows I'll flip town if I die but doesn't want the hassle of defending someone a lot of people think is bad. She has some pretty brutal disses in her post history.

Audio Version:


link: fug

How poetic that my biggest scum read understands the reasoning behind my second biggest scum read better than anyone else.

Wait, this reasoning for your second scum read doesn't even make sense if I'm scum. And you underlined stuff that involved me being town specifically. What's up?

[Diiny]

Also I remember seeing an epi post asking why I turned the question back at him; I didn't see that he commented on floyd beforehand and thought it strange that he asked others about him before saying anything himself. Meant to rectify but then I got caught up in a hurricane of zeb.

[Diiny]

EBWOP: scratch that, all he said about floyd was a joke post about him saying he wouldn't be playing mafia. It's weird.

[DrWilgy]

That was a fun exercise, and I have collected what I wanted. So as the others have pointed out, I did not get a day 1 red check. I did get a green, but I haven't revealed it yet.

Reactions:
Diiny

Peek on Diiny was red. EZ$$

What's your game, Wilgy?

Na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na WILGY!!!! (is most definitely a doctor) and we should kill the confirmed scum.

Your confirmed scum is not scum, but I'm going to wait and see how you play this.

If I was trying to make him look bad I'm perfectly capable of actually sounding like I've made up my mind. If you feel like it's weak, Mac, it's because I'm not actively trying to make him look bad. I don't know why you've assumed I have.

I'm really enjoying your allegations of 'double crossing' (?) zeb and making her look bad that don't actually deal with what I said, keep 'em coming. I'm apparently collecting day 1 votes anway

First of all, if I'm scum (and yes, I know we may play differently) and I'm trying to make someone look bad, the last thing I'm going to do is give off the impression that I've made up my mind. I try to throw shade and point everyone else in a civilian victim's direction while trying to make it as forgettable as possible that I was the one who pointed. Second, and more importantly, you seem nervous.

I agree, but the way Mac phrased it suggested that I was deflecting/lashing out onto Floyd due to being RVS'd, which would imply that I'm trying to frame the guy. I'm saying that what I posted isn't exactly framing him, it's way too objective for that.

I'm not nervous, just really annoyed to be collecting votes like this, and I really don't know what Wilgy's playing at.

So here are the first 3 Diiny quotes, involving me and my false red check. Diiny casually takes the check, while acknowledging that he doesn't know what I'm trying to do.

I'm not going to be able to post any more and I really shouldn't be posting this because I have a deadline in four and a half hours and I'm not done yet. But basically Wilgy's up to no good. He's left it too late for this to be some kind of ruse with the intention of seeing how fast people bandwagon onto me. That said, it's probably telling how quickly some people bandwagoned onto me. Bottom line: I'm town, and wilgy's trying to get me killed.

Now I don't know whether to vote on a wagon for self preservation or on Wilgy because he's scum.

I don't want to lynch jim or mac. Floyd's a better target, but wilgy is scum.

Wilgy it is, fuck it. My train will be informative

A day IRL goes by, and Diiny completely shifted positions. There is very little as to what inspired this change, but Diiny went from "Idk" to "he must be scum, because I'm town". The problem with this I see is that Diiny ignored the fact that I could be a lying cop, or I could just be a lying civ.

ALSO this occurred to me: do cops even get peeks on scum? I don't know how things work here but I've never heard it. He's lying so baaaad. He's so bad.

More time had passed between Diiny's posts when this one came around. Diiny acknowledges that I was lying badly, but doesn't give any information as to why my lying badly makes me scum. Still not acknowledging the other possibilities.

Essay over, feeling GOOD. NO STRESS. let's GO, boys. I haven't read the thread. Ask me questions. throw your shit. Because you're not lynching me and wilgy's lying

Why would he be lying?

To get me killed. I don't know how he'll squirm or WIFOM his way out of it. Doing such an obvious bad move could honestly get people to think it was too obvious for him to be scum in the scenario where I flip town tonight.

That or this is some really stupid town gambit and it's not helping in the slightest.

Reverse... WIFOM? I'm not sure what to make of this, other than what I have stated previous. I suppose that I could add that he seems more sold than ever that I'm scum, but added the "stupid town gambit" part while not willing to explore that possibility.

FZ's grappling with Wilgy makes sense to me, it's a confusing situation, and FZ strikes me as someone wanting to get to the bottom of it quick. What gives me more pause is her stance on me which isn't very solid. I'd be glad to see someone say I wasn't bad normally, but she seemed to want to stay out of the entire conflict, possibly because she knows I'll flip town if I die but doesn't want the hassle of defending someone a lot of people think is bad. She has some pretty brutal disses in her post history.

Audio Version:


link: fug

Acknowledges FZ's struggle with my false red check.

Moving to FZ for self prez and that.

Someone tell me why they're voting me when Wilgy is literally just lying and there's no such thing as a non vt peek

Continues to point out that I'm lying.

I responded quick, but sensed a townie ruse/gambit that I didn't want to spoil. As time passed I was less sure- much less sure.

Short reveal as to why the playful IDK turned to scumminess, with no reason other than time.

That's pretty much it for Diinis, and I have decided that I can vote for him without feeling regret. The lack of prodding into the territory of why he is lying, or what are the possibilities since I know he is lying is what tips me off into the direction of him being scum. The fact that he never once mentioned "He may not be scum, but I don't think he's cop" is the part that bothers me the most. He was willing to say that I was lying, he was willing to base the fact that I was lying on faulty mechanics AFTER others had pointed it out, and he never even bothered to respond to me after I had asked him several times to explain his thoughts on me, several chances to make me think he isn't scum, and didn't take any of them.

Mac

Peek on Diiny was red. EZ$$

I heart u Wilgtown.

I am voting for Jimmy.

Mac sees my posts and ignores it, lol <3 you too bae

I think Wilgy is the cop on the double bluff and either did get an ID or is just really confident in a scum read.

Acknowledges that he thinks I'm the cop, but doesn't follow me in the vote. Interesting...

And the answer is...

BECAUSE HE'S SCUM!

woo!!

If you say so.

DrWilgy

what does he stand to gain by lying right here on Day 1? Or do you think he's bussing?

Fishing out the real cop, would be my guess. Either way I seriously doubt that

1) He got to choose his peek.
2) He got a scummie.
3) It happened to be Diiny.

He's lying, and I don't see any way it's civ-motivated. I say lynch him today, worry about Diiny later.

So you think he's doing this to try to see if someone bites as the real cop? Either to find one or eliminate that paradigm?

I actually feel you. I think you're right.

Wilgtown. Diiny was already attracting negative attention. You could have just added to the case on him. What advantage to town if you were the cop would there be for you to just be out with it like this even if you really are a cop with a red check? Diiny was probably getting lynched regardless, you've just outed yourself for no reason.

Now he shifts to believing Enrique, and questions my reveal timing and intentions...

That's it out of Mac regarding this. I feel a want to buddy buddy, but nothing that pings me as scum. It was a good point to make when questioning my timing, but I'm unsure why he didn't pursue it afterwards when I missed it.

Enrique...
*Wilgy looks at the posts pertaining to Wilgy on Enrique's in-topic*
I'll be back in abit... just thought I should share my thoughts so far...

[Diiny]

My first response to epi's game so far is that he's coasting, but he does hold some controversial views which makes me feel the opposite like his stance on zeb. Looks more like someone who's reserved and observing day 1 but still engaging and contributing, albeit not through quantity. I'm not sure I understand the Floyd stance; can you explain? Is it literally just because he's not playing, or is it because that makes you think he's scum, if you catch my drift? Is it....... POLICY?? Also whilst objective stuff normally pings me epi was pretty fond of it last game and was town, and apparently that's kinda his style.

wilgy: I never bothered to respond to you because I've already voiced my opinion on your peek bullshit and in doing so said I wouldn't be surprised if you were scum. I told you why I didn't immediately discredit with full force and you seem to acknowledge yet ignore that. Also whilst I knew you were lying I didn't realise that's not how peeks worked until I thought about it for a bit.

[Diiny]

You want me to explore the stupid town gambit? You're so sure I'm scum that you pretend to be cop with a peek that l i t e r a l l y c a n n o t e x i s t w i t h i n t h e g a m e. Then if I flipped scum the mafia will kill you, sparing the real cop for a night. Or doctor shenanigans. Either way it's stupid because you're condemning a townie to death and if you're town you're not putting yourself in a great position either. Also the mafia can whittle down their list of potential cops by one.

[Diiny]

Mac's day 1 is solid imo. Shame about his stance on me.

I'm gonna find out if me getting a ping from JJJ is just because he isn't posting or not

[DrWilgy]

You want me to explore the stupid town gambit? You're so sure I'm scum that you pretend to be cop with a peek that l i t e r a l l y c a n n o t e x i s t w i t h i n t h e g a m e. Then if I flipped scum the mafia will kill you, sparing the real cop for a night. Or doctor shenanigans. Either way it's stupid because you're condemning a townie to death and if you're town you're not putting yourself in a great position either. Also the mafia can whittle down their list of potential cops by one.

Aaaactually yes, because you were on the receiving end. It's not a lie that I was unsure of your scumminess or not when I decided to pick you. You of all people should be the most wanting to explore it. Why can mafia whittle down their list of potential cops? I am the cop, I just didn't red check you

btw doc on me if you exist. TY!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I would encourage those who've already voted for Diiny to at least pause for a moment and carefully consider their vote and their mindset, because this is one of those wagons that could easily drift into a lynch while everyone complacently just waits. That's rarely ideal -- critically assess the situation and ensure you're really giving him a fair opportunity.

I wish I had more time to personally address this in a thorough way instead of just rendering advice, but yanno. I gotta get to sleep now, but I'll be back tomorrow with plenty of time to spare. I hope it continues to be an active discussion.

Counterpoint, Diiny is scum and you are being contrarian for reasons.

I didn't offer a contrary perspective, so I don't know why you'd say I'm being contrarian. I advised caution and care, because I am wary of lynches that develop as easily as this Diiny wagon did. Its easiness doesn't imply it's misguided, but I do think there are countless examples of complacent wagons that have started early in a phase, lasted the long haul, and ended badly.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@Epignosis:

I can understand why someone might perceive your move against Floyd to be one that promotes a policy lynch. Actually your stated reason for placing the vote is rather policy-oriented.

Far too many times have I witnessed Mafia coast to endgame by staying out of it. If Floyd is Mafia, then I have no intention of letting him coast. If he's a civilian, then he's not contributing and wins if he's dead anyway (from what I understand).

The highlighted portion is the definition of a lurker policy lynch. Your vote is motivated by his inactivity -- his chronic inactivity (suggests to me that your perspective extends beyond the boundaries of this game, if that's untrue then say so). Inactive players can be anything and lynching them is by nature a roll of the dice. For this reason, a vote for anyone who has actually done something suspicious, however one might define that -- think in Zebra's mindset here, would be a better vote.

Zebra has expressed plenty of suspicions, so his preferred votes shouldn't need elaborating.

Considering what I posted, this is a curious thing on which to concentrate. No comment on a2z's zebra shit response to FZ.?

I only cited the above as a hypocritical example of misrepresentation on zebra's part. My vote of Floyd is decidedly NOT personal (policy is even the dictionary antonym of personal). zebra is therefore misrepresenting me. My point is that zebra's suspicion of FZ. is hypocritical- at best.

I concentrated on the content that I had something to say about when I made that post. I agree that your Floyd vote is not personal (I do understand how Zebra could have interpreted it that way though). You seem to grant that it is a matter of policy, and I would assert that your endorsement of a policy lynch is inherently suspicious.

Because policy lynches are worse than zebra shit.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

In fact Epignosis, I would state that your own reasoning for a Floyd vote is not far removed from randomization, something you openly loathed on Day 1 of Talking Heads (rightfully so in my opinion). I don't think you have the content at your disposal to make a confident read on Floyd, and that means you're intention is to punish him for chronic inactivity instead of his actually being suspicious -- the result of that lynch is left to chance just like a randomized vote because there could be no conviction (as far as I can see) for either a mafia or town read on Floyd at the time of your vote.

[FZ.]

Wilgy, I think that's a shit ass way to get to the end of the day.

If you're not lying now, you should have ended up this fiasco way sooner. I think it twisted things, but hopefully, something good will come out of it eventually. I didn't think Diiny is bad before you came along with your gambit, and it coloured everything for me, so I'm taking my vote off. If it comes down to me against him in terms of votes, I'll put it on him again, but if not, I won't be voting him. The way he's handled everything today makes me feel good about him, and you were the real reason I voted for him.

Now, looking back at everything that has transpired, the person that worries me the most is Epi. At the risk of alienating the only person that seems to defend me this game, there was something about his defence that felt like he knew defending me might come handy later on, while not really getting involved in the Diiny lynch either way. I also think the Floyd lynch is too easy, but I was too engrossed in the Diiny debacle to pursue another line.

So for now, I'm moving my vote to Epi.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm torn on Diiny. I've stated my misgivings. Here are my misgivings about my misgivings:

1.) DrWilgy asserts Diiny did not entertain the possibility that he is town despite his lie -- I disagree. I think Diiny's initial reaction could easily be described as exactly that. Maybe he's making a move here, obviously he's lying but I don't want to interfere with his maneuver immediately in case he has something up his sleeve. That is entertainment of a town angle.

2.) Diiny's responses to Wilgy changed with the passing of time. DrWilgy thinks this is unlikely town behavior, and again I am not sure I agree. It does fall in line with the prior point -- if some part of Diiny thought Wilgy might be employing a gambit that didn't necessarily have to end in a bandwagon on him, then his initial reaction could viably be to stand back and let it develop. But when that doesn't change after a day -- Doc is still making the false claim of a red peek and still endorsing a lynch, Diiny's patience would have to wear thin and so would his ability to have any trust in the guy who is screaming at the thread to slaughter him.

I think there's a town angle for Diiny here. I'm not sure he handled this perfectly, but I also wonder how any of us would have handled the same scenario had Doc red peeked us instead.

Doc, how do you think you'd have responded if I had opened this game with an immediate red peek on you?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Wilgy, I think that's a shit ass way to get to the end of the day.

If you're not lying now, you should have ended up this fiasco way sooner. I think it twisted things, but hopefully, something good will come out of it eventually. I didn't think Diiny is bad before you came along with your gambit, and it coloured everything for me, so I'm taking my vote off. If it comes down to me against him in terms of votes, I'll put it on him again, but if not, I won't be voting him. The way he's handled everything today makes me feel good about him, and you were the real reason I voted for him.

Now, looking back at everything that has transpired, the person that worries me the most is Epi. At the risk of alienating the only person that seems to defend me this game, there was something about his defence that felt like he knew defending me might come handy later on, while not really getting involved in the Diiny lynch either way. I also think the Floyd lynch is too easy, but I was too engrossed in the Diiny debacle to pursue another line.

So for now, I'm moving my vote to Epi.

While I haven't voted for you, I have placed you low in my rainbow so I'll try to explain my gut. I want you to have the chance to influence my read of you in direct dialogue. I think this post displays pretty clearly the concern I have with you -- that you've seen any glimmer of town in Diiny's behavior but were still willing to join his bandwagon based on a very dubious claim of a red peek by DrWilgy. This seemed opportunistic to me, almost transparently so I admit, and I struggled to reconcile it with a town mindset.

Could you try to describe why you felt there was any chance of honesty in Doc's conduct?

[FZ.]

Wilgy, I think that's a shit ass way to get to the end of the day.

If you're not lying now, you should have ended up this fiasco way sooner. I think it twisted things, but hopefully, something good will come out of it eventually. I didn't think Diiny is bad before you came along with your gambit, and it coloured everything for me, so I'm taking my vote off. If it comes down to me against him in terms of votes, I'll put it on him again, but if not, I won't be voting him. The way he's handled everything today makes me feel good about him, and you were the real reason I voted for him.

Now, looking back at everything that has transpired, the person that worries me the most is Epi. At the risk of alienating the only person that seems to defend me this game, there was something about his defence that felt like he knew defending me might come handy later on, while not really getting involved in the Diiny lynch either way. I also think the Floyd lynch is too easy, but I was too engrossed in the Diiny debacle to pursue another line.

So for now, I'm moving my vote to Epi.

While I haven't voted for you, I have placed you low in my rainbow so I'll try to explain my gut. I want you to have the chance to influence my read of you in direct dialogue. I think this post displays pretty clearly the concern I have with you -- that you've seen any glimmer of town in Diiny's behavior but were still willing to join his bandwagon based on a very dubious claim of a red peek by DrWilgy. This seemed opportunistic to me, almost transparently so I admit, and I struggled to reconcile it with a town mindset.

Could you try to describe why you felt there was any chance of honesty in Doc's conduct?

Basically, I felt that if as a baddie, Wilgy had zero reasons to act the way he did, assuming he'd go though with it, and as a civ, I thought he'd put a stop to it way before. I have to say, and you can believe me or not, that if I were a cop that got a red peek in this setting, I might have done exactly that, trying to confuse the mafia and making them hesitate to try and NK me for the chance I might be saved by the doctor. In my experience, scum pick up on hints way faster than townies do because they know what to look for, so if there was really a red peek, and I would only try to hint it, I think they would NK and get me out of the way. I thought there's a merit to what assumed Wilgy was trying to do.
The fact that I saw Diiny as civ other than that means nothing to me after my last game of almost saving all baddies.

[FZ.]

The if in the first line should be omitted

[JaggedJimmyJay]

FZ, what about Diiny's behavior today makes him look good to you?

[FZ.]

I'm going to try writing it again, because I made too many mistakes:

"Basically, I felt that as a baddie, Wilgy had zero reasons to act the way he did, assuming he'd go though with it to the lynch, whereas as a civ, I thought he'd put a stop to it way before.
I have to say, and you can believe me or not, that if I were a cop that got a red peek in this setting, I might have done exactly that, trying to confuse the mafia and making them hesitate targeting me for a NK, at the risk I might be saved by the doctor. In my experience, scum pick up on hints way faster than townies do because they know what to look for, so if there was really a red peek, and I would only try to hint it, I think they would find it, NK me, and get me out of the way without me making sure a baddie went down before. I thought there's a merit to what assumed Wilgy was trying to do.
The fact that I saw Diiny as civ other than that means nothing to me after my last game of almost saving all baddies. "

There, I hope it's easier to understand.

linki: I think his reaction to Wilgy after his reveal, is what I'd expect of a frustrated civ. Plus, like I said, there was never anything that felt that scummy to me in the first place.

[DrWilgy]

I'm torn on Diiny. I've stated my misgivings. Here are my misgivings about my misgivings:

1.) DrWilgy asserts Diiny did not entertain the possibility that he is town despite his lie -- I disagree. I think Diiny's initial reaction could easily be described as exactly that. Maybe he's making a move here, obviously he's lying but I don't want to interfere with his maneuver immediately in case he has something up his sleeve. That is entertainment of a town angle.

2.) Diiny's responses to Wilgy changed with the passing of time. DrWilgy thinks this is unlikely town behavior, and again I am not sure I agree. It does fall in line with the prior point -- if some part of Diiny thought Wilgy might be employing a gambit that didn't necessarily have to end in a bandwagon on him, then his initial reaction could viably be to stand back and let it develop. But when that doesn't change after a day -- Doc is still making the false claim of a red peek and still endorsing a lynch, Diiny's patience would have to wear thin and so would his ability to have any trust in the guy who is screaming at the thread to slaughter him.

I think there's a town angle for Diiny here. I'm not sure he handled this perfectly, but I also wonder how any of us would have handled the same scenario had Doc red peeked us instead.

Doc, how do you think you'd have responded if I had opened this game with an immediate red peek on you?

"Odd... I didn't think there were two cops."
Is how I would've responded.

Now back to what I was doing previous...

[FZ.]

Since I have no reason to find Diiny bad now, it paints everyone else in a different colour. I'll have to read back, but I don't have time. Even Wilgy needs to be re-examined

[DrWilgy]

Enrique

wilgy what

What do you mean what?

"wilgy what" is about right i guess

I get the wuts.

C'mon people it's not hard. Little button next to Diinys name click that, then hit submit.

I have a real hard time believing the cop would start with a "red" ID.

Enrique was actually the first to question the fact that the check was red.

It's not like you decide to get a red ID. lol, can you imagine that? "Host I would like the name of a baddie."

I voted for Diiny almost from the start and his replies just make him look worse and worse but yeah you're so blatantly lying I'm just trying to figure out why.

Lol, pretend I'm Diiny responding to you Enrique.

Diiny, is DrWilgy telling the truth?

No, I don't really understand his angle. I already am receiving a lot of pressure from Zebra, but now DrWilgy is pretending to be cop and adding onto that. I wish I knew why he would choose me over any other player to pretend he got a red check on.

I have no idea what's going on but this is hilarious.

This includes something I wanted to comment about. The question Enrique proposed to Diiny, why? why would he ask that unless he was trying to convince Diiny to call me a liar along with Enrique... because that's the only real purpose I can see behind this post. It just doesn't make sense. My snarky response was made because of the pointlessness of it.

And the answer is...

BECAUSE HE'S SCUM!

woo!!

If you say so.

DrWilgy

Actually votes for me because he thinks I'm lying, lol

And the answer is...

BECAUSE HE'S SCUM!

woo!!

If you say so.

DrWilgy

what does he stand to gain by lying right here on Day 1? Or do you think he's bussing?

Fishing out the real cop, would be my guess. Either way I seriously doubt that

1) He got to choose his peek.
2) He got a scummie.
3) It happened to be Diiny.

He's lying, and I don't see any way it's civ-motivated. I say lynch him today, worry about Diiny later.

How hard did you try to look for civ-motivations for my lie Enrique? Also, this is interesting that you would say worry about Diiny later. It's almost as if you are wanting to quiet down the Diiny conversation, last time I checked, conversation was a good thing.

Also, if I were mafia, drawing out the real cop by these means would be such an absurd Idea.

If that's the angle, the only situation where I see that working are:
1. a cop who isn't me, checked Diiny
2. The Diiny check was green
3. The cop felt that the green check was worth exposing them self for...

~ Or
1. a cop who isn't me, checked someone
2. That cop got a red check
3. That cop counter claims to prevent a possible civ mislynch WHILE lynching a baddie.

Meaning, I'm not mafia trying to draw out cop, rather I'm cop who got a day 1 red peek.

Yeah, MM pm'd me when he was setting up the chat boards.

Actually securing a baddie? do you understand how frustrating Pet Sounds was?

No, what? You're failing to mention... every single other option. You're drawing out the cop one way or another by claiming a red peek that is obviously false. Even if you're right about Diiny, that's guaranteed civ cred for the rest of the game + possibly having the cop nailed. The Mafia absolutely stands to win in this case.

This post also pings me. The thing is, Enrique also fails to mention... every single other option. I never saw how I was drawing out the cop, considering I've already outed myself, plus you forgot to mention my high chances of getting lynched if another cop were to flip. If I were to somehow out the cop, for sacrificing my own teammate, and then we kill the cop and they flip, how would I survive? It would be a team of 9 civs vs 1 mafia... why would I do that? this angle doesn't make sense...

Yo what?!? "Even if I'm right about Diiny?" Does that mean I'm not scum? Scum aren't right or wrong, they know who is civ and baddie, lol

You're lying, and you're not protecting anyone except yourself.

How am I protecting myself?

DrWilgy it's Day 1, why'd you have to make my head hurt like that?

And this is the weird part... I wanna know how others feel about this, Enrique decides to flip sides here after I posted random song lyrics and instructed him to look at the bigger picture... What did you catch that I missed Enrique? do you like 156?

I think Zeeb got him completely off-balance and he didn't know how to deal with the heat. I'm changing my vote back. Either way I feel like he's the safest option.

Diiny.

What makes Diiny the safest option?

He looks bad and he's not claiming a power role. If you were saying something before, and if I understood it right, then I definitely think this is the way to go.

Here's something... Kinda outside the realm of reaction, but here it is, why should Diiny claim a power role? what purpose does that serve? are you trying to encourage role outing? especially when most players should have no knowledge of there even being roles in play?

Diiny was going one way or another, as far as I can tell you're the only one voting for him because Wilgy said so.

He's hooking the doctor. That's true. You don't need to be good to do that. If the Doctor protects a scummie, that gives them free reign to kill whoever they want that night, plus the cred of a claimed role.

DrWilgy is definitely lying.

And now I'm a liar again, but he still chooses to go with Diiny seeing it as inevitable. This contradicts the Wilgy now, Diiny later from earlier... I don't understand why.

I think "postpone LYLO" is a weird way to put it, btw. We're lynching baddies because that's the goal of the game... not to postpone anything.

Tis be a good point, but doesn't really change anything... another off reaction response here. Postponing Lylo is technically all we can do until there is one mafia remaining. It is only at that point we can win.

Because that draws out ALL the opposition. That civ cred will allow him to coast through the rest of the game unopposed, AND, he might just hook the real cop and get rid of him ASAP.

I think Diiny is bad so it's better we lynch him today anyway. The point is that, whatever Wilgy's trying to do, he's not being transparent.

linki- you're missing the point, FZ. Diiny was going one way or another. DrWilgy "outing" himself did nothing for that case, in fact, it's only looking to split the vote more.

I don't believe in red peeks. A cop coming out fully with a green peek on Day 1 would be straight up dumb. Wilgy is lie etc etc

More he's a liar liar

Unless he's a crazy bastard

Boom.

kek

Diiny should still be lynched. But not because DrWilgy says so.

So something I've noticed here... Enrique states that Diiny is bad, more so than I even though I'm lying, but as I'm cruising through his posts... It seems that he's never explained his vote or why Diiny should be lynched over me.

I want to hear YOUR opinion on Diiny.

For the record, I've always been perfectly okay with a Diiny lynch. Wilgy did look more dangerous for a bit, but really, as long as we get a bad guy today there's no rush. Lynching DrWilgy is taking too big a risk atm when we know so little about what he's trying to do.

I think Diiny is scum. I think DrWilgy most likely is but until Diiny is gone, we don't want to lynch him.

This is unsettling... I can't imagine why you would see my lynch as a risk. Enrique, who has stated that I am a liar more than anyone else in this game so far, thinks that my lynch is risky for him.

Generally what I see in Enrique, is that he is willing to call out my shenanigans, but he won't commit to anything himself, other than "Lets lynch Diiny!" I can see a mafia angle in this, one where we lynch Diiny, Diiny flips green, and Enrique pushes my lynch after. Also, based upon this, and Enrique's obsession with the possibility of me lynching my own teammate, I don't think Enrique or Diiny should be given leniency if one of the two were to flip bad. I would be ok with an Enrique vote today, not as much as Diiny though.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm kind of annoyed you have come out so town, Doc. Makes my green peek on you seem less useful.