[ENDGAME] Seinfeld Mafia

[Nicol Bolas]

Again, do we think Jackie is going to be that blatant in bussing a team mate? I don't honestly believe you believe that----deep down.

When you leave the tracker AND the cop alive, what other options do you have?

[Nicol Bolas]

I'm going to engage in a little dangerous night kill analysis for Soup Nazi. I just stated that his being killed over me is something I've considered, and there is also at least one discernible motive I can conceive of to kill him over the two role claimers -- their reads. If the mafia team decides that none of the three (Elaine, Steinbrenner, and Soup Nazi) is going to be lynched, then they have less obvious interest in killing a role claimer given that both are claimed to be expended. Their choice can then be otherwise motivated. I want to see what Soup Nazi's reads looked like in his final day.

Where did I claim to be expended, Jerry?

I am not all out of sponges at all.

[Nicol Bolas]

Catching up. Sorry peeps, RL has kicked me in the ass majorly.

What are these reasons, Jerry?

At the time of those reads:

Elaine - role claim
George Costanza - decent, effortful infusion into the thread soon before those reads
Steinbrenner - consistently relevant contributions under the role play, handles questions gracefully
Jackie - strong start to the game, tonally agreeable
Soup Nazi - Indignant and irritable, particularly in my direction, in a way that seemed civilian
Leo - A few incidents where I felt he exhibited genuine hunting effort

I want to take a peek myself to see if I can find the nipple in somebody's soul.

I'll start with George.

I get slightly negative vibes from George:

I'm feeling good about you people
Kramer
George Steinbrenner
Uncle Leo
Jerry
Jackie

I got bad feelings about you people
Elaine
The Soup Nazi
Estelle
Dad

I got no feelings about the rest of ya.

I'm good and STELLA! is dead.

This last post though:

Jackie has been quiet.

This is such a...I don't know...random thing to say about someone he felt good about, but said he felt bad about Estelle, who had said even less than Jackie Chiles.

what is this even.

You know, I did think it was rather farfetched that all four main characters of the show (George, Seinfeld, Elaine and Kramer) would RANDOMLY be picked as town. Kramer was town, I'm town, pretty sure I have good feelings about Jerry...so Elaine, as someone who roleclaimed and wasn't night killed, what's your deal?

Sure Estelle is dead. Yes, I felt peculiar about her. No, I didn't vote for her at any time. Suspicion arises. Everyone is suspicious at some point.

Jackie was a lot more vocal, and when he was, I had good feelings about him. He disappeared, he missed voting. I questioned it. What's up with that? How is it random? I liked the way Jackie was talking, I didn't like the direction Estelle was headed. I'm allowed to make judgement calls based on how I see them.

This post stinks worse than Kramer's laundry. Bear in mind that I knew Jackie was bad news when I posted this, so my interest in George calling Jackie quiet was piqued.

If the roles are randomly assigned, why would it be farfetched that we're all good guys?

By the logic George presented, he has to be bad!

But this kind of thinking has me thinking he isn't. Even I- confession!- have fallen victim to the erroneous thought that somebody in the main of the theme has to be bad, and I know better!

And nobody was calling Jackie bad.

Unvote.

[Julinook]

I'm glad to see some work was done overnight. I had a terrible night. My girlfriend Jodi is a masseuse, and she refuses to give me a massage. What's the deal with that? What's the point then?

[November]

Frank hasn't commented on me IDing him at all. Frank hascn't commented on a lot of things and it makes him difficult to read. I am leaning toward voting for him today. I am unlikely to be here for the EOD.

[November]

I think Big Stein's analysis of the lawyer has a lot of merit. And not just because he's black. I mean, not because he's black at all! But one thing you missed, Steinbrenner: he did mention Estelle before challenging Jerry.

On another not, rereading Estelle's three posts, I find it satisfying to read them in her roleplaying voice. It works despite her admission that she doesn't know how.

Not sure what to make of that, other than that he's mentioning her to mention her.

I'd also love to here a follow up to this post. I've asked a few times now what parts of my Jackie ISO had merit, and the bottom comment about Jackie/Estelle seems like something he arbitrarily tacked on. I see a relatively good amount of potential for soft distancing between Jackie and Frank in their respective posts.

[November]

here, hear. whatever.

[November]

ASSMAN! I'LL GIVE HIM ASSMAN!

*votes Kramer*

Now where did this vote come from? You criticize George, Elaine, Estelle... but then vote Kramer with no real explanation! Not to mention that this is a follower vote on someone I'm feeling pretty good about. Highly questionable behavior.

On another not, rereading Estelle's three posts, I find it satisfying to read them in her roleplaying voice. It works despite her admission that she doesn't know how.

Change vote: Frank

This was the only vote for Frank on Day 1, and it came late in the phase. Uncle Leo accused Elaine and The Soup Nazi of casting meaningless votes on each other for distancing purposes on Day 1. I can level the same accusation against Jackie here.
Frank makes no mention of Jackie until my ISO and Elaine's claim at the end of Day 3, at which point he becomes a cheerleader on the bandwagon.

[November]

Jackie consistently named Frank as a suspect without ever actually applying pressure to him.

[Julinook]

It's a vote I could support. Lynching a civilian who has been ID'd civilian with a godfather still alive would be a gut punch, but that's only relevant if he's a civilian. I think he looks bad.

[November]

It's a vote I could support. Lynching a civilian who has been ID'd civilian with a godfather still alive would be a gut punch, but that's only relevant if he's a civilian. I think he looks bad.

A nagging feeling in the back of my mind tells me the two cop IDs were put to the worst possible use, targeting the Night 1 kill victim and the godfather.

Additionallly, I've been reviewing the interactions between George and Jackie just now. I think they reflect favorably on George. In contrast to my most recent point about Jackie/Frank, there seems to have been deliberate pressure applied to George by Jackie for a couple of days, while hanging back on Frank despite proclaiming them as his two most prominent suspects.
George, meanwhile, did an apparent 180 on Jackie and began prodding people about him mid-game. I like George more each time I read his posts, honestly. The bit about one of the four main characters needing to be bad stinks, but I don't think that thought has to have come from a dishonest mind. As a great man once said, it's not a lie if you believe it.

[Julinook]

The biggest point of contention seems to be Whatley, who I view as a top suspect and a member of my 3-player and [hopefully] game-winning lynch set. Others have voiced trust (Elaine, George, perhaps Big Stein to a lesser degree). I arrive at my suspicion largely given my reduction of potential teams, which allowed me to tentatively move past Leo and Peterman. The other three are what's left.

So I'd ask someone who trusts Whatley to examine all the interactions I checked which include Peterman and/or Leo and tell me if/where you disagree with my conclusions.

[November]

My ID is the one reason I have not to vote for Frank. Even if he does turn out to be the godfather, it would be preferable today to find his teammate. I'd feel a hell of a lot better about lynching Frank if we had two confirmed vanilla mafias.

I've been ignoring Peterman today. I see him now as low hanging fruit and I still can't shake my bad feeling about Leo because f the way he's treated Peterman.

[Julinook]

Elaine and you, Steinbrenner-advocate, have both voiced improved feelings about George. I can at least state that his urgency and effort this phase are good to see and inspire hesitation in my own suspicion. I haven't removed him from the pool though given the remaining interactive dynamics in play.

It has me viewing a Frank/Whatley team as the most likely of all.

[November]

I could vote for Whatley. What stands out to me most about his posts right now is three similar instances of him giving unsatisfying answers for his questionable behavior:

Spoiler: show

Do you think it would be unwise for power roles to claim at this point in the game?

Depends really. There are too many variables in play still.

@George Costanza Where are you and where is your head at? Why did you vote the Soup Nazi day 1 but not day 2? You did say you had a bad feeling about him.

This is a true assessment, Whatley. Who knows what roles could be out there at this time? But I have a bone to pick with you here and Big Stein's gonna fight, you better believe that! First, you criticize Elaine because she asked for role claims. But then you can't point to any specific harm that could come from this. You gave a non-answer. The Yankees are all about answers! I don't know how you do it in dentistry, but here we get to the bottom of things! I'm as iffy on Elaine's roleclaim as anybody, but I don't understand what you're saying about her here.

I see, I interpreted what she was asking differently. I see no harm in asking for role claims. I see harm in people who are lying to make vague statements about needing to get more information.

This relates the core of our situation. We are always trying to get more information. I'm sure when we have more information and the time is right to share, we will. Elaine should know this.

Sien, what do you think of Uncle Leo's vote for you? What do you want right now?

Don't be so upset Jerry, discussion will come.

Your theories regarding Steinbrenner, that's a lie isn't it? At least in regards to having deeper thought on him.

I'm not sure what you mean. I'm lying about welcoming opposing reads on him?

Tim Whatley, I'd like an answer to this question please.

Ah, sorry. I was just poking you to see what would happen. Nothing interesting unfortunately.

Good evening everyone. I'd like to apologize for my absence today. The office was slammed.

Regarding my Peterman vote without much reason, truth is there was none other than me wanting to gauge reactions. I figured if Peterman was bad, I should pressure vote and see who scrambles. This didn't happen.

I probably would've swapped to Leo or Elaine if it weren't for her hard claim.

I will review my suspects tomorrow. Until then, goodnight.

I don't feel he ever adequately explained why Elaine's plea for information was troublesome, and his two claims of reaction baiting don't really address the underlying thought process of his gameplay. His prod of Jerry came out of nowhere and looks bizarre to me, and he waves his hand at the Peterman vote claiming it was done for reactions, but as far as I can tell he disappeared from the thread soon after and didn't return until well after the deadline had passed.

[Julinook]

I follow you, Yankeeman. This post in particular is perplexing:

I see, I interpreted what she was asking differently. I see no harm in asking for role claims. I see harm in people who are lying to make vague statements about needing to get more information.

This relates the core of our situation. We are always trying to get more information. I'm sure when we have more information and the time is right to share, we will. Elaine should know this.

Sien, what do you think of Uncle Leo's vote for you? What do you want right now?

I don't know what is being implied in the highlighted portion or how it applies to Elaine's behavior.

[Julinook]

To further clarify how I've arrived at Frank/Whatley, I'll return to my chart. This time I have removed George from the equation, dangerously trusting in the fire seemingly lit under his Day 4 arse.



Three compatible pairings remain.

Note though: Frank, Bania, and Whatley have never said a word to or about one another in this game thread. It's not typical mafia behavior, but I am not sure it'd be surprising in this scenario wherein both player slots have generally been populated by low posters.

[Julinook]

Within that paradigm, Peterman is only mafia if Leo is his teammate. That entire interaction can be reduced to Leo's "these guys are civilians because they voted Peterman" analysis, which occurred during a night phase when there'd be no urgency for Leo to rip on his teammate so blatantly. I don't feel much about that.

If it's Leo/Frank, it's again only that post which hints toward it -- I think a bit more convincingly than the Peterman/Leo link.

[Julinook]

I may have just convinced myself to realign my 3-player POE to this though:

Frank Costanza
Tim Whatley
Uncle Leo

[Principal Skinner]

ASSMAN! I'LL GIVE HIM ASSMAN!

*votes Kramer*

Now where did this vote come from? You criticize George, Elaine, Estelle... but then vote Kramer with no real explanation! Not to mention that this is a follower vote on someone I'm feeling pretty good about. Highly questionable behavior.

On another not, rereading Estelle's three posts, I find it satisfying to read them in her roleplaying voice. It works despite her admission that she doesn't know how.

Change vote: Frank

This was the only vote for Frank on Day 1, and it came late in the phase. Uncle Leo accused Elaine and The Soup Nazi of casting meaningless votes on each other for distancing purposes on Day 1. I can level the same accusation against Jackie here.
Frank makes no mention of Jackie until my ISO and Elaine's claim at the end of Day 3, at which point he becomes a cheerleader on the bandwagon.

I agree with this: Jackie casting a "throwaway" vote on Frank and then "one-sided distancing." This makes me suspect Frank. His initial defenses of Stein & Soup could have been role play, which was discussed here I believe. The "unexplainable" vote on Puddy becomes explainable.

It's a vote I could support. Lynching a civilian who has been ID'd civilian with a godfather still alive would be a gut punch, but that's only relevant if he's a civilian. I think he looks bad.

I am now working under the theory that the remaining two are Whatley/Frank. If Frank has been potentially ID'd as civ, doesn't it make more sense to vote Whatley tonight? (Jerry, I see your vote is currently on Whatley) If Whatley is the Godfather, we know Frank is clear and can spend energy elsewhere. If Whatley is vanillia mafia, we can afford to mis-lynch Frank in pursuit of the Godfather. We run the same risk of getting civ on Whatley as we do Frank. We should at least vote someone who has not been ID'd civ already.

Placing a vote for Whatley now and will be unable to play again until 630pm central. I will be here for end of day discussions and potential vote swap.

[November]

Frank/Whatley is currently looking like the most plausible team to me, but I'm not yet at a point where I'm comfortable removing anyone else from my POE.

[Julinook]

Frank/Whatley is currently looking like the most plausible team to me, but I'm not yet at a point where I'm comfortable removing anyone else from my POE.

Officially speaking, all five remain in my POE. As I work through the scenarios though, I can "eliminate" them separately, for pretend, and see where that leaves me. It has been illuminating, I think.

[Julinook]

Goddamnit Leo I like that post.

[November]

[mention]Uncle Leo[/mention], when you return, my most pressing concern about you is your treatment of J. Peterman in this game. You've been a vocal supporter of his bandwagon without actually supplying any of your own input on the player. I'm sure you can understand why this might look bad from my perspective. I want to know what it is that you saw in him, and why you're willing to drop it now? This post in particular does not sit well with me.

[November]

If we can reach a consensus on Whatley then he'd be my preferred lynch today for the reasons Leo laid out. It's safer to lynch a player who does not have a town ID on them.

[Julinook]

I want to state that I don't care about the "safer" lynch, because I think playing it safe it often the same as "not winning". However, I do think the notion of avoiding Frank is logical this time if and only if there is confidence and consensus in the alternative. Three of us seem okay with Whatley. I'm looking forward to hearing from Elaine, Peterman, and Whatley himself.

[Julinook]

By the way, if Leo and George are civilians -- this Day 4 has been a wonderful example of teamwork. Even if not, most of it's genuine and I really appreciate that. This is what makes Mafia such a great game; when numerous players coordinate their different mind-spaces into a single, combined effort. So many civilian teams simply don't do it.

[November]

Voting whatley. I'm probably not going to be here for EOD, but I'll try my best to make it. If I need to move a vote, I should at least be able to do that. But at this very moment I feel good about where it is.

[Julinook]

Four hours. The game is on the line. Bring me your concerns ASAP.

I'll be around, but tonight I'm taking Winona out to that great Chinese place if I can find it. Maybe this guy knows where it is...

[Larry David]

I am burnt the fuck out after today (and really for the last few days). I'm going to try to recharge for a bit and be back to actually play, but I just wanted to apologize for being so absent.

[Julinook]

I am burnt the fuck out after today (and really for the last few days). I'm going to try to recharge for a bit and be back to actually play, but I just wanted to apologize for being so absent.

Do what you have to do Peterman, but please be aware that the lynch is finalized in 3 hours! There's little time to waste! Anything you can say or do could be immensely helpful and turn the game over completely. Imagine how big a boost it would be if you could convince others that you might be a civilian -- even without wasting time defending yourself and instead just finding those dang baddies.

I'm rooting for you, Peterman. I believe in you. The burnout is real, but the game is nearing its end. Let us cross the line together.

[Spooky Ghost]

I still think Frank is the better lynch today. I hear what you're saying about Whatley and will move my vote if it makes a difference.

[Julinook]

I still think Frank is the better lynch today. I hear what you're saying about Whatley and will move my vote if it makes a difference.

If you had to narrow your suspect pool to just three names, who would they be?

[Spooky Ghost]

Not because I believe Whatley is mafia, though, I don't see it (especially based on Kenny Bania's attitude--yeah, all 3 posts of them--read more like vanilla townie to me) but because this is a team effort and I want to be a team player.

[Spooky Ghost]

Frank
Leo
Peterman

[Julinook]

Not because I believe Whatley is mafia, though, I don't see it (especially based on Kenny Bania's attitude--yeah, all 3 posts of them--read more like vanilla townie to me) but because this is a team effort and I want to be a team player.

I appreciate the mindset. I know about your concerns regarding Frank. Is there something about Leo and/or Peterman that concerns you as well that we could talk about?

[Julinook]

Wait a minute, hell no, George Costanza is scum. Full stop. Voting George.

[Spooky Ghost]

Explain?

[Julinook]

you're basing your entire votes on Jackie's interactions with me, jerry/elaine? that's really lazy scum hunting. Terrible in fact.

Worst post in the thread.

From this defense:

Just a thought for you: after Elaine all but sealed his deal confirming she'd tracked him, he went down shouting me as his top suspect.

Do you honestly think that, along with the post above, is actually something a team mate would do? Do I think one of the people he named in that post is a team mate? Sure, it's more than probable. Do I think it's the name he was yelling the loudest aka me; no.

I think you should give Long Con as a player a little more credit than that. That said, no doubt he's laughing in his grave now at how he got the two most vocal posters to vote for me without a hesitation. Well done Jackie. You played it well.

Why the hell wouldn't Jackie do that? It's the point of WIFOM. I've seen a mafioso fake track their own teammate into a kill and cruise to victory with it; I can certainly conceive of this.

[Celeste]

So... I guess we are en route to lynching me. Positives are that me dying won't end the game, negatives are we'll be closer to it.

I was hoping to come here and get to hunting but looks like I gotta defend for a moment, so let me take care of that first.

I could vote for Whatley. What stands out to me most about his posts right now is three similar instances of him giving unsatisfying answers for his questionable behavior:

Spoiler: show

Do you think it would be unwise for power roles to claim at this point in the game?

Depends really. There are too many variables in play still.

@George Costanza Where are you and where is your head at? Why did you vote the Soup Nazi day 1 but not day 2? You did say you had a bad feeling about him.

This is a true assessment, Whatley. Who knows what roles could be out there at this time? But I have a bone to pick with you here and Big Stein's gonna fight, you better believe that! First, you criticize Elaine because she asked for role claims. But then you can't point to any specific harm that could come from this. You gave a non-answer. The Yankees are all about answers! I don't know how you do it in dentistry, but here we get to the bottom of things! I'm as iffy on Elaine's roleclaim as anybody, but I don't understand what you're saying about her here.

I see, I interpreted what she was asking differently. I see no harm in asking for role claims. I see harm in people who are lying to make vague statements about needing to get more information.

This relates the core of our situation. We are always trying to get more information. I'm sure when we have more information and the time is right to share, we will. Elaine should know this.

Sien, what do you think of Uncle Leo's vote for you? What do you want right now?

Don't be so upset Jerry, discussion will come.

Your theories regarding Steinbrenner, that's a lie isn't it? At least in regards to having deeper thought on him.

I'm not sure what you mean. I'm lying about welcoming opposing reads on him?

Tim Whatley, I'd like an answer to this question please.

Ah, sorry. I was just poking you to see what would happen. Nothing interesting unfortunately.

Good evening everyone. I'd like to apologize for my absence today. The office was slammed.

Regarding my Peterman vote without much reason, truth is there was none other than me wanting to gauge reactions. I figured if Peterman was bad, I should pressure vote and see who scrambles. This didn't happen.

I probably would've swapped to Leo or Elaine if it weren't for her hard claim.

I will review my suspects tomorrow. Until then, goodnight.

I don't feel he ever adequately explained why Elaine's plea for information was troublesome, and his two claims of reaction baiting don't really address the underlying thought process of his gameplay. His prod of Jerry came out of nowhere and looks bizarre to me, and he waves his hand at the Peterman vote claiming it was done for reactions, but as far as I can tell he disappeared from the thread soon after and didn't return until well after the deadline had passed.

How was that unsatisfactory? Elaine had pinged me with her claims, I think I had pointed this out. Then for the person who I was suspicious of to come in and request further information (while lying) pushed my ping into full suspicion. Elaine's plea for information wasn't troublesome, more so unnecessary and this is because we were already trying to get more information. We are always trying to get information, that's the only way for us to solve this game and is a given. Fluffy unnecessary posts along side purposeless lies create a chaos state and I didn't think it was assisting us in solving the game, only promoting some scheme she had going on (which I was technically right about).

And my pressure vote on Peterman? Is there anything wrong with that? am I supposed to not hunt and generate information? Also, to go back to the events of my Peterman vote, if I had a reason other than it being a pressure vote, why the hell did I swap to Chiles?

I suppose you either don't have an understanding of what I saw or you don't want my answers to satisfy you currently.

[Spooky Ghost]

lol.

You literally voted for me after analyzing my interactions with Jackie. You can call it whatever you want, I think it's weak. Sorry if that upset you but it doesn't change my mind.

[Julinook]

Whatley, defending yourself is pointless at this point. Just do that hunting. That hunting is your defense. Who's bad?

[Julinook]

lol.

You literally voted for me after analyzing my interactions with Jackie. You can call it whatever you want, I think it's weak. Sorry if that upset you but it doesn't change my mind.

I literally voted for you after analyzing everyone's interactions with Jackie, deeming yours the worst, in combination to never having read you as a civilian at any point prior to that. I didn't think you looked good before Jackie, and I think you look worse after Jackie. Exactly how is that "weak"? That's what scumhunting is. It's a deliberate usage of information in the thread to arrive upon an educated conclusion.

"lol"

This is how you take pressure in crunch time, after willfully planting your flag in the lynch of a player you read as a civilian to be a "team player"? No way, George Costanza. No way.

[Spooky Ghost]

Why the hell wouldn't Jackie do that? It's the point of WIFOM. I've seen a mafioso fake track their own teammate into a kill and cruise to victory with it; I can certainly conceive of this.

we've all seen a lot of things. Since the narrator has chosen to disclose the actual identity of the player at death, I'm assuming that would help determine some player habits.

Sorry to break you out of roleplay mode, but would the player Long Con shout LYNCH GEORGE COSTANZA after getting lynched and knowing he'll be flipping scum if I was his team mate? If you say there's a greater percentage that he would, then lynch me. You'll be lynching a vanilla townie, but at least it'll give you information on how NOT to assess a situation.

[Julinook]

Why the hell wouldn't Jackie do that? It's the point of WIFOM. I've seen a mafioso fake track their own teammate into a kill and cruise to victory with it; I can certainly conceive of this.

we've all seen a lot of things. Since the narrator has chosen to disclose the actual identity of the player at death, I'm assuming that would help determine some player habits.

Sorry to break you out of roleplay mode, but would the player Long Con shout LYNCH GEORGE COSTANZA after getting lynched and knowing he'll be flipping scum if I was his team mate? If you say there's a greater percentage that he would, then lynch me. You'll be lynching a vanilla townie, but at least it'll give you information on how NOT to assess a situation.

I have no idea why you're insisting this is some kind of impossibility. This happens all the time. I have done it myself as a mafioso, in the championship game of the MU tournament two years ago. I was on my way to the gallows and I posted a huge ISO incriminating my only teammate.

He survived the game and won.

[Spooky Ghost]

Sorry, the lol is one of exasperation. I feel like I've been guilty to you since Day 1, quite literally, and all I've done is go round in circles defending myself. so if you need to lynch me to get it out of the way, you do that Jerry. I hope everyone else can see the truth though.

[Paul Stevens]

Alright, I'm back, SERENITY NOW'ed, and ready to vote for George now that Jerry has also seen the light. Will look at Whately just to be fair.

He looks to me like a civilian being thrown into the game and wanting to engage with the main posters, make sure they didn't escape suspicion. That both of those main posters have turned out to look eminently civ is just the way the game unfolded.

Joining in Day 2 I was very much fixated on Elaine and Jerry. So much so that I've decided to take a step back and review other leads and questions I have.

The thing that looks worst to me is this.

Regarding my Peterman vote without much reason, truth is there was none other than me wanting to gauge reactions. I figured if Peterman was bad, I should pressure vote and see who scrambles. This didn't happen

That's after previously defending the vote with this:

Interesting. What should I say over his 7 posts that hasn't been said already?

That strikes me as a lack of transparency, which isn't a great look at this point in the game, when we're all really scrambling to solve and avoid LYLO. My gut says it's good for him to come clean rather than fabricate a reason, but I realize that's open to interpretation.

In summary, I still think George is a stronger suspect based on what he's said about Estelle and Jackie.

[Spooky Ghost]

Would be hilarious if Jerry is scum though. I mean really, hats off to you. While no one is questioning Elaine and Steinbrenner, you're not even a confirmed PR and no one's questioning your alliance.

[Celeste]

Whatley, defending yourself is pointless at this point. Just do that hunting. That hunting is your defense. Who's bad?

Leo, Frank, recent posts makes me want to look at George but I can also see the angle of a frustrated civ taking heat solely based on mafia actions.

George, how do your actions counteract what is being claimed? Can any of your actions hold you accountable or no?

[Julinook]

Frank, I don't understand what's happening in that post. Do you trust Whatley or not?