[ENDGAME] Seinfeld Mafia

[November]

Moved my vote to George. I do not expect to be here for the EOD proceedings again. George can easily put his vote on Frank to force a tie at this point. [mention]J Peterman[/mention] [mention]Uncle Leo[/mention], please be cautious and considerate of where you place your votes. If the town splits its votes, then the remaining mafia can just force a tie and put this lynch in the hands of a coin or something.
If we are going to split the votes, I'd rather it be on the two players I suspect most. I'd rather not split the votes at all.

[Spooky Ghost]

Sorry guys, I'm on a deadline with a work project report. I promise I'll address as much as I can before end of day.

[November]

Sorry guys, I'm on a deadline with a work project report. I promise I'll address as much as I can before end of day.

The Penske file?

[Spooky Ghost]

Moved my vote to George. I do not expect to be here for the EOD proceedings again. George can easily put his vote on Frank to force a tie at this point. @J Peterman @Uncle Leo, please be cautious and considerate of where you place your votes. If the town splits its votes, then the remaining mafia can just force a tie and put this lynch in the hands of a coin or something.
If we are going to split the votes, I'd rather it be on the two players I suspect most. I'd rather not split the votes at all.

You're making a mistake. I will address your posts, and hope you can show up and read them before EOD.

[November]

Moved my vote to George. I do not expect to be here for the EOD proceedings again. George can easily put his vote on Frank to force a tie at this point. @J Peterman @Uncle Leo, please be cautious and considerate of where you place your votes. If the town splits its votes, then the remaining mafia can just force a tie and put this lynch in the hands of a coin or something.
If we are going to split the votes, I'd rather it be on the two players I suspect most. I'd rather not split the votes at all.

You're making a mistake. I will address your posts, and hope you can show up and read them before EOD.

That's what everyone keeps telling me when I vote for them.

[November]

Jerry Seinfeld
Uncle Leo
Frank Costanza
J Peterman
George Costanza

I do not advise lynching Frank today. I think we should lynch Peterman or George. If we're wrong, lynch the other one tomorrow. If we're wrong again, somebody has fooled me.

[Julinook]

Jerry Seinfeld
Uncle Leo
Frank Costanza
J Peterman
George Costanza

I do not advise lynching Frank today. I think we should lynch Peterman or George. If we're wrong, lynch the other one tomorrow. If we're wrong again, somebody has fooled me.

Agreed.

[Julinook]

Not Frank.

[November]

George and Peterman are about even in my mind. I'm voting for George because that's where the other votes are. I'm confident that it's one of those two, but I do not know which one. I wouldn't hate splitting the votes between them if we can't reach a consensus.

[Spooky Ghost]

I'm back for a bit! (breaking this down into 2 posts as I've been on/off)

I sounds like you've conclusively decided that Leo is a civilian. I'd be interested to hear about what leads you to that read.

I've said what stroke me as suspicious.
Initially, I felt good about him. His posts seemed constructive, even things I disagreed with, I felt like we were two townies discussing things. The best example of this is when I heard what he was saying about you, related to it, and tried to offer my 2 cents why I didn't find it plausible it could be an intentional move on your part (post-Newman lynch). During Day 2, I specifically questioned you why you were trusting Uncle Leo, since Leo posted for Puddy alongside 2 of his named suspects, which wouldn't be something I'd do personally. If my 2 suspects voted for someone, I'd vote for someone else. That's what started my bad feelings towards Leo.

Day 3 I held the same opinion on Leo: "I'm someone who goes by gut instincts a lot, and I felt Uncle Leo was wishy washy in his stances, as long as he didn't draw attention to himself or garner too much opposition and preferred following the bunch; insincere; not as vocal or skeptical as people should be on Day 2."

I didn't see anything from Leo to change my opinion, although his absense did make me pause and reconsider my vote. By Day 4, I felt like scum had to be someone who wasn't paying attention (killing Soup Nazi). Along with my past suspicions of Leo, I felt he could fit the bill.

Self-voting isn't something a scum would do to get people to feel guilty. That's emotionally manipulative on an out-of-game level in some ways, so call it what you will, but the gesture has almost solidified Leo to me as much as Elaine or Steinbrenner.

[Spooky Ghost]

2. Why was my EOD4 so bad, Jerry? I mean, more so than my usual?

3. I genuinely got upset when Whatley flipped. I was happy we caught a scum of course, but really felt bad about my reads. When I posted that post about how it's not possible to have 2 cops? Elaine made fun of me, but that was me feeling dumbfounded and genuinely bad at how wrong I was about someone. Right after I'd gotten it wrong about Leo too.

These are related so I'll answer together. I can easily forgive you for being wrong about Whatley. I don't think that's a good reason to suspect somebody, at least not at face value -- indeed, civilians are inherently prone to wrongness given their lack of information. That's the point! However, I am concerned that your efforts at the very end of Day 4 were so kind to Whatley that I am forced to question your sincerity. You went to some trouble to supply a civilian read in that case, and it could have swayed the lynch permanently onto Leo (and if Leo is a civilian that sends us to LyLo).

Think of this scenario. I am a scum. I contributed to Leo's lynching (who will flip town, since Whatley is scum and I'm the godfather). I did this by being aggressivly supportive of Whatley who more than 2/3rds of all players have already named as a suspect at one point or the other. So I am scum, and Whatley is my team mate. Where does this leave me, exactly? Why would I defend Whatley so much? Why did I switch to Frank and not Whatley even when his fate was sealed?

If I was scum, and I did try to get a bandwagon on Leo started, and this didn't happen for whatever reason; wouldn't it have been smarter to iso Whatley and hop on that bandwagon?

I was dumbfounded he was scum. Seriously. I had faith in his vanilla-role. He plays confusion well.

But play that scenario in your head, and since you THINK you know ME, tell me, does that sound like something I'd do? Is it a win/win scenario? Will you cite to me mafia games where someone did that and say I give you icky feelings because it's plausible. Anything is possible. But what are the chances, is what I'm asking.

[Principal Skinner]

Vote moved to George per the conversation that has taken place today. I'm away for the day but can check to potentially move the vote again closer to EOD. I'm really not feeling Peterman based on his vote record but that is faulty instinct at work and not necessarily based on analysis laid out by the group.

[Spooky Ghost]

However, I'll also state that I am more concerned about your reception of the Jackie Chiles analyses than anything else. The arguments you raised are familiar to me, and in the wrong way.

That stung didn't it? I should have given you more credit for your work. Well done! You put in a lot of effort. And I do appreciate the time and effort it takes you to do these for reals.

However I still stand by my assertion that viewing a dead mafia's player's interactions with each player individually and determining I am scum based on those interactions alone isn't fair on me. It's easy for scum to misrepresent innocents, or try to frame us. It's easier for analyzers to then feel someone is bad when they aren't based on a slight tunnel vision, as opposed to looking at the bigger picture and all general contributions. Call me defensive and whiney, but don't call me scum again, Jerry. Whine. Moan. Complain.

[Spooky Ghost]

I haven't given up yet, but if I am lynched, please look into Frank/Peterman or possibly Jerry! Analyze Jerry. Everyone's kinda given him carte blanche and he's not confirmed townie. I am not in a timely position to do an analysis tonight but it's worth looking into.

[Spooky Ghost]

Most importantly, your cases for and against the other players in the suspect pool is what is likely to decide how I read you (and Steinbrenner too perhaps among others). The merit and usefulness of self-defense has is minimal at this point.

I don't have a case against Peterman. After Frank, he's my second likely suspect. It's hard to read him with not so many contributions which are greatly masked in roleplay. The fact he isn't as aware of the innings and outings of the thread as Whatley was (which I previously took for granted as a sign to be townie), could impact the way I see him now. The main reason I voted for him now instead of Frank is to save my ass because I'm vanilla.

I'll try to explain as best I can why I would rather place a vote on Frank as soon as I can!

Finally, I have to admit, Jerry has really made this game difficult for me. There's not been a single day/night stage where he hasn't cast suspicion on me no matter how hard I try to explain myself. I wanna say it's been fun knowing ya, but it hasn't.

[November]

Vote moved to George per the conversation that has taken place today. I'm away for the day but can check to potentially move the vote again closer to EOD. I'm really not feeling Peterman based on his vote record but that is faulty instinct at work and not necessarily based on analysis laid out by the group.

If you can, tell me more about your thoughts on Peterman's vote record.

[November]

I haven't given up yet, but if I am lynched, please look into Frank/Peterman or possibly Jerry! Analyze Jerry. Everyone's kinda given him carte blanche and he's not confirmed townie. I am not in a timely position to do an analysis tonight but it's worth looking into.

Do you have time to analyze these people today?

[Spooky Ghost]

Edit: I voted for Frank! With Peterman. Ignore me. Still to save my ass, and also because I think he's the godfather.

[Spooky Ghost]

I haven't given up yet, but if I am lynched, please look into Frank/Peterman or possibly Jerry! Analyze Jerry. Everyone's kinda given him carte blanche and he's not confirmed townie. I am not in a timely position to do an analysis tonight but it's worth looking into.

Do you have time to analyze these people today?

I'll focus on Frank (for myself and others itt) right now in the next hour or so. I don't think I can build a huge case against Peterman, but I'll do what I can after Frank since it wouldn't take as long as I guess.

I do not have the time to even attempt to try and get through Jerry tonight.

[Julinook]

Still reading and thinking as much as I can. I hope as many people as possible are available at EOD with or without me.

[November]

I am out and am not likely to return prior to the deadline. I hope that we all make good decisions tonight. Sorry I can't hear you out, Georgey boy.

[Spooky Ghost]

One thing I'd like to understand is why people call all my votes (because they aren't bandwagons, or popular) possibly scummy? I don't get it. Should I vote for someone I think is scum or should I vote for someone everyone else thinks is scum? If I was scum, would I care more about blending in or being ousted in this way?

Just a question to think about (and anyone can answer or consider it rhetorical, idc). But take a guys total contributions to heart, not one or two things amplifying your suspicions by mafia.

[Principal Skinner]

Vote moved to George per the conversation that has taken place today. I'm away for the day but can check to potentially move the vote again closer to EOD. I'm really not feeling Peterman based on his vote record but that is faulty instinct at work and not necessarily based on analysis laid out by the group.

If you can, tell me more about your thoughts on Peterman's vote record.

The following includes certain statements from a previous post of mine:

Peterman:

Day 1 vote for civ Newman, however it was alongside 1 definite civ and 2 more than likely civilians (Stein/Jerry). Could scream innocent townie mistake a la Kramer/Stein/Jerry.
(a la those people because they are innocent and also made the mistake of voting Newman. Thus, this vote is meaningless to me)

Day 2 vote for Puddy – WITH Frank. That makes it tricky for me.
There were four votes for Puddy. Two are 100% innocent (Me & Elaine) It's difficult for me to get a read on Peterman's vote for Puddy when I made the same mistake. Also, Frank's vote was here too. So, if the current theory is George is mafia, it sort of makes sense that Frank & JP have votes here on Puddy.

Day 3 for Jerry.. understandable. I am sure we have all thought about voting for Jerry at one point or another.
I still can't eliminate the idea that we are going to find out Jerry is the GF at the end of this. It's a far fetched idea, of course. I am simply explaining why his vote for Jerry here also fails to arouse suspicion in me WHILE I AM ANALYZING HIS VOTING RECORD ONLY.

Day 4 for Tim with the majority.
Hard to find inherent fault with that.

To me, Frank & Tim voting Jackie (D3) feels more mafia than Peterman’s vote on Tim here on D4.

tl;dr: The main point I am attempting to establish is JP's voting record is incredibly similar my own. With me as a innocent/townie/civilian, I can't rush to judgement when I analyze his voting patterns. (As opposed to George, whose record Jerry calls "distinctly bad" and I happen to agree.)

[Spooky Ghost]

@Uncle Leo If I vote Frank, what will you do?

I have a really bad feeling about this post. Like, a feeling that makes me question whether my suspicion towards Frank is unwarranted.

[Spooky Ghost]

As opposed to George, whose record Jerry calls "distinctly bad" and I happen to agree.

But why? I want to know why.

[Spooky Ghost]

As opposed to George, whose record Jerry calls "distinctly bad" and I happen to agree.

But why? I want to know why.

[mention]Uncle Leo[/mention]

One thing I'd like to understand is why people call all my votes (because they aren't bandwagons, or popular) possibly scummy? I don't get it. Should I vote for someone I think is scum or should I vote for someone everyone else thinks is scum? If I was scum, would I care more about blending in or being ousted in this way?

Just a question to think about (and anyone can answer or consider it rhetorical, idc). But take a guys total contributions to heart, not one or two things amplifying your suspicions by mafia.

[Spooky Ghost]

Why does everyone have distinguishable trust in Jerry and what Jerry says? Is he a confirmed PR and I didn't know about it? How many times has he been wrong in his suspicions? I mean, you can trust that someone isn't mafia and you can assume someone is, on your own instincts, but until you see the cards flip, everyone is suspect tbh.

[Spooky Ghost]

Some reasons for voting Frank:
1. The night killings have been very random. It makes me feel like it can't be someone who is extremely involved in the game. The fact that Whatley was not informed of key information itt makes me question whether his circle is also as absent from the thread as him. A scum team with at least 1 active participant would have easily and clearly relayed this info to his scum-mates and ensured either the cop or self-claimed tracker would have been earlier night kills. They were not, so we are left to ponder why that is.
2. I noticed that Frank didn't once comment on being ID'd civ by our cop or use it as a defense at any time until a brief post late Day 4. This further pushes my theory above at how the scum team was slightly disconnected from every day happenings.
3. He placed a vote on me on the basis of me mentioning Estelle as a suspect on Day 1, and how I found it suspicious she was questioning Jerry's state of non-death after night 1 since he was very vocal during that day phase. As such, her dying the next night reflected bad on me according to Frank. Then calls out Jackie for doing exactly the same thing as his reasoning to why he was placing a vote on Jackie and why Jackie was suspicious. Seems like a weak reason just to give a reason for the sake of looking like someone who was voting for someone with a valid reason to do so and not just a bandwagon to avoid suspicion.
4. He was asked about it by Jerry, and Frank claimed that I killed Estelle because I wouldn't be able to give a reason if someone asked me why I suspected her... so to avoid being asked about it, I chose to kill her. That was his reasoning. I can assure you my reasoning for questioning Estelle's motives in casting suspicion over Jerry's aliveness were slightly more convincing than that.

Some reasons that make me question my vote:
That Whatley post to Leo at the eleventh hour. I don't quite know what the purpose was behind it. Was Whatley hoping to get a Frank lynch going on before the tables turned on him? It may seem like a minor and moot point, but it's made me question my suspicion.

[Julinook]

Still listening, phone is really low on battery.

George, thoughts on Peterman please

[Spooky Ghost]

I want answers to questions I've asked. I'm getting lynched in an hour and a half and that's all you got to say?

[Julinook]

I want answers to questions I've asked. I'm getting lynched in an hour and a half and that's all you got to say?

It's impossible unfortunately. I'm at 14% and am unlikely to be back home in time. All I can do is open this sparingly, read, and vote.

[Spooky Ghost]

whatevs man

[Spooky Ghost]

Some reasons for voting Peterman:
1. The night killings have been very random. It makes me feel like it can't be someone who is extremely involved in the game. The fact that Whatley was not informed of key information itt makes me question whether his circle is also as absent from the thread as him. A scum team with at least 1 active participant would have easily and clearly relayed this info to his scum-mates and ensured either the cop or self-claimed tracker would have been earlier night kills. They were not, so we are left to ponder why that is.

Some reasons that make me question my vote:
1. He was there when Elaine self-proclaimed vigilante on Day 2. So following my line of thought in #1 above, despite her claim being bogus, it was suspicious. If I was scum, and I saw it, I would have most likely targeted her on Night 2, unless I was attempting to frame her but even then I would have targeted her Night 3 instead of Night 4 - especially when she claimed she wasn't out of shots.
2. His voting patterns and line of questioning feel genuine to me. Not so much beef, but not much to hide. He's been incredibly consistent in his role play and for someone who's been nominated for lynching as often as he has, and as the godfather, I feel like he would have been stronger, more defensive and more participant one way or the other. Instead, he's playing like a busy vanilla townie to me.
3. He sees Frank as bad, and I see Frank as bad, so we're in this together.

I don't care if I'm wrong about Peterman and he is the godfather. There is genuinely not enough content or even context through other mafiaers to warrant my total suspicion of him. He's going to be second or third on my list, following my look into Jerry (a brief one since I don't have much time, fuck a Saturday evening).

[Spooky Ghost]

And last parting words, in case I DONT post about Jerry before I am lynched, Frank then Jerry are my top suspects.

[Julinook]

George, would you lynch Peterman instead of Frank?

[Spooky Ghost]

George, would you lynch Peterman instead of Frank?

I would not.

[Julinook]

Voting Frank.

His civilian case hinges upon one thing, the Peterman read at EOD4. That's not incredibly compelling.

I agree with George that he's the most likely to be clueless about the power roles, which implicates him in the kills. I also hate that he's sat quietly today while we've argued about everyone else, mostly to his benefit.

George's self referential critiques in his casings looks like legacy civilian more than frantic mafioso. If I'm wrong, well-played.

A LyLo with George and Peterman is a daunting one, but winnable.

[Spooky Ghost]

I don't have time to go into specific posts and whatnot, so here I am trying to generalize.

Reasons to vote for Jerry
1. The night killings have been very random. It makes me feel like it can't be someone who is extremely involved in the game... Or is it a set up? How can someone like Jerry ensure he isn't held suspect when he's one of the most outspoken members of the game and not being killed? By throwing everyone off guard, random unexplainable night kills and keeping other outspoken players alive so he doesn't look like that odd one out. Makes sense to me and entirely plausible if we consider him an experienced player--play as if you're a townie and make random killings and try to analyze them as though you were a townie.
2. Self-confidence. He's very vocal, very loud. God father trait, nothing to worry about, probably hasn't been sending in the kills either and after Whatley died he went and killed Elaine (the tracker) so that no one can bust him at any time and after already fitting into the God role itt, he's almost guaranteed victory since he's cast agreeable suspicion on literally every other player except Big Stein. After my lynch, someone's going to die, probably Leo. Then it'll be lynching Peterman/Frank.
3. The Puddy ordeal. He screamed Puddy for days, and when people actually listened, he started backtracking a little. He made it seem like a Puddy lynch wasn't what he actually wanted, even though he initiated it. He came at me for the very same reason re: my Leo votes, despite actually unvoting him when I felt Leo was genuine after the self-vote fiasco. He's done the same with Peterman unsuccessfully, and after I'm lynched I can assure you he'll be all over Peterman again.

Some reasons that make me question my vote:
1. He's been generally helpful, contributed a great deal. Had no problems effortlessly lynching his team mates, but we've seen that sort of heartlessness before so I won't give him all the benefit of the doubt but just a little.
2. There's more but I want to post this to give people Food for Thought that lynching me today is not in your best interest. I want this to be a townie win gosh darn it!

[Spooky Ghost]

I will not make casings for Big Stein and Leo as I have no suspicions towards them.

[Spooky Ghost]

a pity Steinbrenner and Uncle Leo won't be showing up. I think I've burned all my brain cells for Saturday night. The more I look at it, the guiltier Jerry looks. : (

[Julinook]

I'm not good enough at this game to be a mafioso with this post history. Big posts are easy. Real emotion and solving urgency are not.

[Spooky Ghost]

I don't have time to go into specific posts and whatnot, so here I am trying to generalize.

Reasons to vote for Jerry
1. The night killings have been very random. It makes me feel like it can't be someone who is extremely involved in the game... Or is it a set up? How can someone like Jerry ensure he isn't held suspect when he's one of the most outspoken members of the game and not being killed? By throwing everyone off guard, random unexplainable night kills and keeping other outspoken players alive so he doesn't look like that odd one out. Makes sense to me and entirely plausible if we consider him an experienced player--play as if you're a townie and make random killings and try to analyze them as though you were a townie.
2. Self-confidence. He's very vocal, very loud. God father trait, nothing to worry about, probably hasn't been sending in the kills either and after Whatley died he went and killed Elaine (the tracker) so that no one can bust him at any time and after already fitting into the God role itt, he's almost guaranteed victory since he's cast agreeable suspicion on literally every other player except Big Stein. After my lynch, someone's going to die, probably Leo. Then it'll be lynching Peterman/Frank.
3. The Puddy ordeal. He screamed Puddy for days, and when people actually listened, he started backtracking a little. He made it seem like a Puddy lynch wasn't what he actually wanted, even though he initiated it. He came at me for the very same reason re: my Leo votes, despite actually unvoting him when I felt Leo was genuine after the self-vote fiasco. He's done the same with Peterman unsuccessfully, and after I'm lynched I can assure you he'll be all over Peterman again.

Some reasons that make me question my vote:
1. He's been generally helpful, contributed a great deal. Had no problems effortlessly lynching his team mates, but we've seen that sort of heartlessness before so I won't give him all the benefit of the doubt but just a little.
2. There's more but I want to post this to give people Food for Thought that lynching me today is not in your best interest. I want this to be a townie win gosh darn it!

Reasons to make me question my vote:
His reacting to Leo's self vote. It was a bit of shock and general negative towards it possibly being a scum move. He seemed to question it as much as anyone else. Reaction was very genuine. If an act he deserves an oscar.

[Principal Skinner]

I'm responding to things right now.

[Principal Skinner]

this is brief because of the time

george:
To me, the outlying votes are a way to obscure motivations and make a read harder. IMO, that’s what makes it “distinctly bad.”

Why does everyone have distinguishable trust in Jerry and what Jerry says? Is he a confirmed PR and I didn't know about it? How many times has he been wrong in his suspicions? I mean, you can trust that someone isn't mafia and you can assume someone is, on your own instincts, but until you see the cards flip, everyone is suspect tbh.

I agree with this 100%.

Some reasons for voting Frank:
…
2. I noticed that Frank didn't once comment on being ID'd civ by our cop or use it as a defense at any time until a brief post late Day 4. This further pushes my theory above at how the scum team was slightly disconnected from every day happenings.
…

Some reasons that make me question my vote:
That Whatley post to Leo at the eleventh hour. I don't quite know what the purpose was behind it. Was Whatley hoping to get a Frank lynch going on before the tables turned on him? It may seem like a minor and moot point, but it's made me question my suspicion.

I appreciate this particular point. I hadn’t considered it.


Jerry - if I switch (back) to Frank and he is innocent, who is at the top of your list tomorrow?
Same question to you, George

I am still uncomfortable with a JP vote. George agrees with me on that so perhaps I should move to Frank and then see if George reneges on that claim, I could be more certain placing a vote for him.

[Julinook]

Tomorrow will demand another reassessment if necessary. My first guess would be Peterman gun to head. He'd be the only one left for whom I cannot provide any inspiring civilian argument and have no strong feeling for.

[Principal Skinner]

George and Peterman are about even in my mind. I'm voting for George because that's where the other votes are. I'm confident that it's one of those two, but I do not know which one. I wouldn't hate splitting the votes between them if we can't reach a consensus.

Jerry, with what you know about Steinbrenner and how he has played the game thus far, would you be willing to wager that he supports the move to Frank?

[Spooky Ghost]

I'd like to know what the argument for Peterman and not Frank is from Big Stein.

I'd like a bullet point list of why Peterman from anyone. 3 reasons.

[Principal Skinner]

I don't know if this is relevant. Soup died on Night 3. This was a Day 3 post.

....

Now that I've gained a little bit of perspective back, I realize the Soup Nazi's been knocked down a few rungs on the suspect list, especially by Jerry and Uncle Leo.

Of those remaining, I hate to say it, but my gut says my son. It's just the kind of sick, twisted thing he'd do after putting her on his baddie list, especially after providing no reason. She was a suspect he couldn't defend if he got asked, so he knocked her off to avoid being asked about her. And he was even the last one seen at her bedside!

He realizes Soup is no longer a suspect so Soup is worthless as far as adding to the confusion and thus Soup becomes a target for N3 kill? It doesn't make sense because either way the Soup kill is not a good one.

[Principal Skinner]

I'd like to know what the argument for Peterman and not Frank is from Big Stein.

I'd like a bullet point list of why Peterman from anyone. 3 reasons.

Changing back to Frank based on this post. It's tough (I believe ) to come up with this as mafia. I hope.

[Spooky Ghost]

If Frank is town, I'll vote for either Jerry or Peterman. I'll have more time to analyse Jerry's post history during the night if I am not lynched today. I still think it's Frank. Peterman still strikes me as townie. Jerry has a lot of question marks but he has genuine reactions and urgency going for him.

It's hard to call at this moment beyond not feeling it about Frank.