RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

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Golden
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2521

Post by Golden »

Also, I did see myself as town win compatible. If I just could have killed Jay, I would have suggested lynching me. The town deserved to win, in my view (and golden 1.0 would have won too, I guess!)
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2522

Post by JaggedJimmyJay »

There was no way for me to know that my being killed would allow for a combined win. It's a bastard game in that regard because it meantthat I was harming my own win chance just by using my role. I'd have never used it on Night 4 if I'd known. I used it because it stood a chance of eliminating a suspect (it did with Sloonei).

Town didn't lose this game because of "PoE". INH was never going to realize his game-long BTSC partner was not on his team. There's nothing he can do about that, and the game effect was evident.

This is not to gripe about the setup. It made for a fun twist and that suits the narrative. It's not to take away from Golden either. I'd definitely prefer he win in that role than a guy with 3 posts. Usually when town loses though I feel it's the result of a town failure. This time I don't. Just the way it goes.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2523

Post by Ricochet »

Golden wrote:It is inherently corrupted by invisible uncommon power roles to be sure,
No, we're talking non-civilian forces. What part of there being a serial killer was "invisible" and "uncommon"? Least to speak of baddies themselves. It's not rocket science, really. "Hey guys let's gather our reads into PoE"... said the wolf. It wasn't the case, this game. It'll be one day.
Golden wrote: but the reason I was able to do it was only by forcing mm and Jay into reaching mechanical conclusions that were wrong. As Jay said earlier, it's silly to expect it to be utterly infallible.
Didn't follow D5 in depth. Justification of the method doesn't influence the point made, though.
Golden wrote:Where it's benefit lies, is in coming as a town to collective town read conclusions that enable you to narrow the field.
Ok this is the part where I'll bring to attention that your idea of "coming as a town to collection town" was to 1) simply agree with Sloonei about the charges brought towards Scotty on Day 1, then 2) simply state that "you agree with Jay's PoE", hence it becoming your PoE. Sure, you elaborated once inquired, but as far as I recall, this was the basic gist of your first two phases. You call it "coming as a town to collectiveness", but it was really borderline wagoning. And then you started acting like the voice of the nation in regards to the path of light that is the PoE, which was further enraging. Don't grab and wave the banner, just like that, especially if your methods are about as basic as wearing an "I'm with =====>" T-Shirt. Sit back down at the table and compare notes. I gave the example straight away back then: Boomslang's death being a relief for you (since PoE) wasn't the same relief for me (since no suspicions on him, plus town deficit created: one lynch, two deaths). There was nothing remotely "collective" in this death, for instance, being treated as good PoE reduction.
Golden wrote: what my power was in this case wasn't important - what is important is not lynching outside of the poe. It's true you might clear baddies, it's not infallible. But what it is, is something that increases town win percentage overall in these types of games.
So far, it's zero percent. Only way is up, though, so that's good.
Golden wrote: If I was to put it another way, it would be this... It's about not pursuing a tinfoil read in a situation where you can accept there are good logical reasons for others to read them as town
Epignosis would have been a good instance to tinfoil. Of course, I'm not going to pretend I tinfoiled him at any point. His vote move looked real clean. Besides, I never implied tinfoil being the path towards light at any point; it's just a look at what might be. Also, good logical reasons to read them as town? Cool. Let's do good logical reasons for mafia, as well, then. "I suspect X because I have nothing with which to townread him - and that happens to be 60% of my must-be-bad category?"... *tommy lee stare*
Golden wrote:running with consensus town reads
run run run awaaaaa- oh wait what is consensus? From two people? Uhm.
Golden wrote: and lynching people who don't have that, even if the suspicion isn't active.
Witchhunt. Doesn't sound too kosher.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2524

Post by JaggedJimmyJay »

Yes, it is possible for a PoE to be corrupted by a bad guy. Nobody denied that.

Until I am shown a single town strategy that isn't susceptible to making a bad read, I don't care. Nothing is perfect. If people don't prefer the strategy, that's fine. To dismiss the strategy entirely and beg to be nightkilled because other people are using it is something else.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2525

Post by JaggedJimmyJay »

And the strategy is not at 0% on The Syndicate. It's been used a ton, just not under the term "PoE".
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2526

Post by Ricochet »

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Town didn't lose this game because of "PoE". INH was never going to realize his game-long BTSC partner was not on his team. There's nothing he can do about that, and the game effect was evident.
The point was never that the loss was caused by PoE. Such a conclusion was not reached, due to third party handling the last mafia member.

As for INH, whilst this is in no way an implication regarding what he could have done, I'm noticing that, if he received his role card the way it's written in post-game, there isn't a mention that he has BTSC. Lover role cards usually go both ways. :ninja:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:And the strategy is not at 0% on The Syndicate. It's been used a ton, just not under the term "PoE".
I didn't say 0% on Syndicate.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2527

Post by JaggedJimmyJay »

It's not 0% in any subforum either. :meany:
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2528

Post by Marmot »

Question about the town win condition. What is it and did we achieve it?
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?

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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2529

Post by Marmot »

Golden wrote:Also, I did see myself as town win compatible. If I just could have killed Jay, I would have suggested lynching me. The town deserved to win, in my view (and golden 1.0 would have won too, I guess!)
According to the host post, you did assassinate Jay.
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?

The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2530

Post by Golden »

Look, Rico, I'm not here to sell you a bill of goods. The PoE strategy is proven over thousands of games from other mafia cultures, and it worked here perfectly.

I'm not trying to convince you to change your game style, and I doubt I'll play more heist games because they aren't really my jam, so do whatever you want with it.
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Canucklehead wrote:Civ Golden is a hurricane of self-assurance.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2531

Post by Golden »

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Golden wrote:Also, I did see myself as town win compatible. If I just could have killed Jay, I would have suggested lynching me. The town deserved to win, in my view (and golden 1.0 would have won too, I guess!)
According to the host post, you did assassinate Jay.
But only to be the last man standing.
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Canucklehead wrote:Civ Golden is a hurricane of self-assurance.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2532

Post by Golden »

Ricochet wrote:Lover role cards usually go both ways.
I think he noticed from the fact we had a btsc thread.
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Canucklehead wrote:Civ Golden is a hurricane of self-assurance.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2533

Post by JaggedJimmyJay »

Hell, without PoE we would have probably lost this game to reywaS instead. :grin:
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2534

Post by Marmot »

Golden wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Golden wrote:Also, I did see myself as town win compatible. If I just could have killed Jay, I would have suggested lynching me. The town deserved to win, in my view (and golden 1.0 would have won too, I guess!)
According to the host post, you did assassinate Jay.
But only to be the last man standing.
Never mind, I read the posts out of order.

Curse you and killing your BTSC mate. :fist:
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?

The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2535

Post by Golden »

Ricochet wrote:No, we're talking non-civilian forces. What part of there being a serial killer was "invisible" and "uncommon"?
Unless the setup is open, all roles are invisible. I've never seen someone have 'civilian btsc' with a SK before, so that's very uncommon.

I won this game by getting myself mechanically cleared by inh because he thought he had btsc with a civilian. I mean, really, what is anyone going to do with that? It's not me corrupting a system through my wiles - it's the fact I got a role that no-one could predict.

The further you get from fully closed role madness, the more effective PoE becomes.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2536

Post by Marmot »

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Hell, without PoE we would have probably lost this game to reywaS instead. :grin:
I'll take solace in the fact that I actually caught a baddie there.

Anyway, great games all around. Thanks for being a good sport Jay and pouring your heart into it yet again. Thanks Golden for killing Epignosis (that was yuuge). Sorry Quin for wrongly lynching you twice in this game. I think this is our first game together, so I'll keep this in mind for the future.

Thanks for the game G-Man. I do think this game was a tough one for the civilians, bu we certainly could have done it, and I think we performed better than the average group of players would have done.
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?

The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2537

Post by Golden »

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Golden wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Golden wrote:Also, I did see myself as town win compatible. If I just could have killed Jay, I would have suggested lynching me. The town deserved to win, in my view (and golden 1.0 would have won too, I guess!)
According to the host post, you did assassinate Jay.
But only to be the last man standing.
Never mind, I read the posts out of order.

Curse you and killing your BTSC mate. :fist:
I had to - INH would target Jay that night (so Jay would have survived) and in any event I targetted Jay the night before, and couldn't double target.
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Canucklehead wrote:Civ Golden is a hurricane of self-assurance.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2538

Post by Marmot »

Golden wrote:
Ricochet wrote:No, we're talking non-civilian forces. What part of there being a serial killer was "invisible" and "uncommon"?
Unless the setup is open, all roles are invisible. I've never seen someone have 'civilian btsc' with a SK before, so that's very uncommon.

I won this game by getting myself mechanically cleared by inh because he thought he had btsc with a civilian. I mean, really, what is anyone going to do with that? It's not me corrupting a system through my wiles - it's the fact I got a role that no-one could predict.

The further you get from fully closed role madness, the more effective PoE becomes.
Another question for inh. With leetic never posting in the game thread but sending in the kills, did he also never show up to the chatroom? What went on in that Day 2 - Day 3 phased where he kinda disappeared?
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?

The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2539

Post by Golden »

He posted twice in our thread. One post says 'hello'. The other one says he is starting school tomorrow but will try to be active.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2540

Post by Ricochet »

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:It's not 0% in any subforum either. :meany:
I consider to have played a town game with PoE strategy for the first time. If it shared similarities with previous occasions and strategies, it must have not been delivered back then like a preach of the Commandments from the top of the Mount Mafia Universe. :shrug2:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Question about the town win condition. What is it and did we achieve it?
Yeah, man, we've won the game, can't you tell?
Golden wrote:
Ricochet wrote:Lover role cards usually go both ways.
I think he noticed from the fact we had a btsc thread.
No, we're talking role cards here. If there's a "Julianna, you and Dave have BTSC" card, there should be a "Dave, you and Julianna have BTSC" one.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2541

Post by Ricochet »

Golden wrote:Look, Rico, I'm not here to sell you a bill of goods. The PoE strategy is proven over thousands of games from other mafia cultures, and it worked here perfectly.
You were doing so well until you drove it back to square one with the underlined. The operation was successful, the patient is dead.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2542

Post by JaggedJimmyJay »

Rico, you and Marmot won Talking Heads with me by cooperatively using process of elimination to arrive at Diiny and Russ at the end.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2543

Post by Golden »

Ricochet wrote:And then you started acting like the voice of the nation in regards to the path of light that is the PoE, which was further enraging. Don't grab and wave the banner, just like that, especially if your methods are about as basic as wearing an "I'm with =====>" T-Shirt.
By the way, lets be clear. I think this, not PoE, is at the heart of what's going on here. You got enraged with me, and you spent the rest of the game not really playing because you were mad at me. There was far too much anger going on in this game. Mafia is not a good place for anger.

If you have a problem with me, there are ways to address that.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2544

Post by Ricochet »

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Rico, you and Marmot won Talking Heads with me by cooperatively using process of elimination to arrive at Diiny and Russ at the end.
Except I achieved literal process of elimination due to my cop reads (and even so, testing them out - sacrificing motel room in a lynch to confirm MM's role - since there was a chance they could have been doctored), achieved after 11 cycles of gaming and still needing to put a monumental fight to firstly convince you of the theory on MM, then convincing the both of you to stick to the plan whilst those two were biting back. I don't deny it was total cooperation reached to vanquish the opposing forces left, but it was as asiduous and strongly debated coming to consensus as any mafia game deserves to contain.

If that's the same as "hey Jay what's your five? I can run with that. PoE, everyone!" then kill me now.
Golden wrote:
Ricochet wrote:And then you started acting like the voice of the nation in regards to the path of light that is the PoE, which was further enraging. Don't grab and wave the banner, just like that, especially if your methods are about as basic as wearing an "I'm with =====>" T-Shirt.
By the way, lets be clear. I think this, not PoE, is at the heart of what's going on here. You got enraged with me, and you spent the rest of the game not really playing because you were mad at me. There was far too much anger going on in this game. Mafia is not a good place for anger.

If you have a problem with me, there are ways to address that.
You're wrong in assessing that. I used the word "enraging" for the effect a method had, when voiced in a highly principled manner to emphasize previous methods that were, imo, much more shallow.

If there's anything that crashed my game into abandon, it must have been the four hours in which it devolved into "why vigi kills are good" and "why PoE is the way to go". I basically ended up doing the same thing Epig did, later on (although, again, he was Mafia, so, who knows, possible fakery). Was he actually angery when he said "ok you tell me where to vote and I'll just do that from now on"? :shrug2:
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2545

Post by Golden »

Nah, epi is epi. I know what I'm going to get from him. I don't believe he gets angry in mafia, and I believe you can always trust that what's in the game is in the game for epi.

I'm glad I'm interpreting it wrong. I've never seen the kind of thing from you where you sort of stopped playing, though, and maybe I interpreted that wrong too, and that frustrated me because it didn't bother me in the slightest if you didn't use or like PoE (as I tried to make clear multiple times), it bothered me much more that you would stop playing because I was using it. It felt like it was because you were mad at me, so I'm glad it's not that. I don't ever want you to stop trying hard on my account, because you are too much of an asset to do that.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2546

Post by G-Man »

Catching up on all the posts. One thing I want to make clear is that Jeb was not compatible with the civvies. Had JJJ been NK'd by Jeb, he would leave the game. If this happens when the mafia is still alive, Jeb gets a win and leaves the game. Then the rest of the civvies still have to eliminate the baddies.

With the mafia gone, a Jeb win means a civvie loss. Jeb either takes Trump out himself or he takes everyone else out to be the LMS. Even if the mafia is eliminated, the civvies need to get rid of Jeb to win.

Let me explain it this way- the civvies were tasked with eliminating all threats to Trump's campaign. They can't win with Jeb because he is a threat to the campaign. I couldn't spell it out for you guys because the closed setup required me to keep killing faction information from you. If that devolved into a grey area, then I guess that's just my fault as the host. It was always civvies-v-mafia-v-sk. Had Trump been lynched, Jeb could have accomplished his mission in the narrative had he made it as LMS.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2547

Post by Golden »

Ricochet wrote:If that's the same as "hey Jay what's your five? I can run with that. PoE, everyone!" then kill me now.
I had my PoE before Jay stated his. They happened to align. I don't need to debate what I already agree with. Jay and I were remarkably in sync in this game, while I was town. Others who weren't against the PoE in principle also seemed to have very similar lists.

So, I mean, apologies for not taking your views, or inhs views, so much but I can't easily figure out what to do with opinions that consider the entire approach invalid. I don't think you and I have ever been able to get in to the others head very easily, so it's much harder for me to know what to do with your perspective. You weren't giving anyone a town read at all, so... I don't know what to do with that.

One thing to recognise about the PoE is its a 'for today' thing each time. So you aren't looking for ironclad reasons to remove someone from any possibility of being bad. You are trying to find reasons to see them as more likely town than not and town enough that at least 'they should not be lynched today'.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2548

Post by Golden »

G-Man wrote:Catching up on all the posts. One thing I want to make clear is that Jeb was not compatible with the civvies. Had JJJ been NK'd by Jeb, he would leave the game. If this happens when the mafia is still alive, Jeb gets a win and leaves the game. Then the rest of the civvies still have to eliminate the baddies.

With the mafia gone, a Jeb win means a civvie loss. Jeb either takes Trump out himself or he takes everyone else out to be the LMS. Even if the mafia is eliminated, the civvies need to get rid of Jeb to win.

Let me explain it this way- the civvies were tasked with eliminating all threats to Trump's campaign. They can't win with Jeb because he is a threat to the campaign. I couldn't spell it out for you guys because the closed setup required me to keep killing faction information from you. If that devolved into a grey area, then I guess that's just my fault as the host. It was always civvies-v-mafia-v-sk. Had Trump been lynched, Jeb could have accomplished his mission in the narrative had he made it as LMS.
So, if I had NKed Jay when Sloonei died, I would have won, and then left the game, and with no baddies left, the townies would have automatically won?
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2549

Post by Golden »

If so then ironically, the town could have won if they'd just stuck with sloonei instead of that CFD on to Quin I wasn't around for.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2550

Post by Ricochet »

Golden wrote:
G-Man wrote:Catching up on all the posts. One thing I want to make clear is that Jeb was not compatible with the civvies. Had JJJ been NK'd by Jeb, he would leave the game. If this happens when the mafia is still alive, Jeb gets a win and leaves the game. Then the rest of the civvies still have to eliminate the baddies.

With the mafia gone, a Jeb win means a civvie loss. Jeb either takes Trump out himself or he takes everyone else out to be the LMS. Even if the mafia is eliminated, the civvies need to get rid of Jeb to win.

Let me explain it this way- the civvies were tasked with eliminating all threats to Trump's campaign. They can't win with Jeb because he is a threat to the campaign. I couldn't spell it out for you guys because the closed setup required me to keep killing faction information from you. If that devolved into a grey area, then I guess that's just my fault as the host. It was always civvies-v-mafia-v-sk. Had Trump been lynched, Jeb could have accomplished his mission in the narrative had he made it as LMS.
So, if I had NKed Jay when Sloonei died, I would have won, and then left the game, and with no baddies left, the townies would have automatically won?
G-Man wrote:With the mafia gone, a Jeb win means a civvie loss.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2551

Post by Quin »

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Hell, without PoE we would have probably lost this game to reywaS instead. :grin:
I'll take solace in the fact that I actually caught a baddie there.

Anyway, great games all around. Thanks for being a good sport Jay and pouring your heart into it yet again. Thanks Golden for killing Epignosis (that was yuuge). Sorry Quin for wrongly lynching you twice in this game. I think this is our first game together, so I'll keep this in mind for the future.

Thanks for the game G-Man. I do think this game was a tough one for the civilians, bu we certainly could have done it, and I think we performed better than the average group of players would have done.

We've played together like 5 times :haha: I guess I'm not very good at making an impression.
Lunalee wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:13 amQuin's ISO is full of posts that are actually trying to be helpful to the game. This doesn't look like town Quin.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2552

Post by Golden »

Oh, right. So the town was doomed from the moment I chose epi. Well, it would have been very difficult for me to win and the town to win in the same game, then.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2553

Post by Quin »

This was actually probably the worst game I've ever had. I didn't vote a single baddie and town read two of them
Lunalee wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:13 amQuin's ISO is full of posts that are actually trying to be helpful to the game. This doesn't look like town Quin.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2554

Post by Golden »

Quin wrote:This was actually probably the worst game I've ever had. I didn't vote a single baddie and town read two of them
Sorry for lynching you and not being sorry, Quin. Btw, I'm always sorry for a mislynch outside of the game. I just have to be honest about how I feel from a game perspective only while inside the game.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2555

Post by Quin »

Golden wrote:
Quin wrote:This was actually probably the worst game I've ever had. I didn't vote a single baddie and town read two of them
Sorry for lynching you and not being sorry, Quin. Btw, I'm always sorry for a mislynch outside of the game. I just have to be honest about how I feel from a game perspective only while inside the game.
I don't mind. I don't take anything personally.
Lunalee wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:13 amQuin's ISO is full of posts that are actually trying to be helpful to the game. This doesn't look like town Quin.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2556

Post by Marmot »

Quin wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Hell, without PoE we would have probably lost this game to reywaS instead. :grin:
I'll take solace in the fact that I actually caught a baddie there.

Anyway, great games all around. Thanks for being a good sport Jay and pouring your heart into it yet again. Thanks Golden for killing Epignosis (that was yuuge). Sorry Quin for wrongly lynching you twice in this game. I think this is our first game together, so I'll keep this in mind for the future.

Thanks for the game G-Man. I do think this game was a tough one for the civilians, bu we certainly could have done it, and I think we performed better than the average group of players would have done.

We've played together like 5 times :haha: I guess I'm not very good at making an impression.
Oops, I meant to say first time playing for any length of time. I know we played together briefly in the other game and I've hosted you twice. :P
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2557

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Golden wrote:Nah, epi is epi.
Scotty wrote:Rico is good.
MP is bad.
Beck is gab.
JJJ is meh.
SVS is gone.
Leetic is hi.
Boom is high.
Epi is Epi.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2558

Post by Epignosis »

Golden wrote:Oh, right. So the town was doomed from the moment I chose epi. Well, it would have been very difficult for me to win and the town to win in the same game, then.
See? I fuck over the civilians even when I'm bad and getting night killed by the serial killer. :feb:

It's like, my thing.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2559

Post by JaggedJimmyJay »

Thanks for the game G-Man. I always appreciate such a big effort in narration and flavor. :beer:
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2560

Post by insertnamehere »

Ricochet wrote:As for INH, whilst this is in no way an implication regarding what he could have done, I'm noticing that, if he received his role card the way it's written in post-game, there isn't a mention that he has BTSC. Lover role cards usually go both ways.
Golden wrote:
Ricochet wrote:Lover role cards usually go both ways.
I think he noticed from the fact we had a btsc thread.
No, we're talking role cards here. If there's a "Julianna, you and Dave have BTSC" card, there should be a "Dave, you and Julianna have BTSC" one.
Not 100% on what you're asking, but here's what I got in a PM when the game began.
Good morning,

You are IVANKA TRUMP, a member of the Trump family. You are one of Donald Trump's most trusted children and advisers. You're strong bond to your family gives you the strength to protect them. Each night, you may protect one member of the Trump Family. This will keep them safe from nightkills on the night you send their name in. PM your protection choice by the end of the night phase, specifying which Trump family member (not a player name) that you wish to protect. You cannot protect anyone whose last name is not Trump, so you cannot protect your husband.

You also have BTSC with your husband, Jared Kushner. Here is a link to a private chat for you two until we can get a BTSC thread set up.
Me and Leetic/Golden never completely shared our roles with each other until Day 5, when I laid out that Trump had to be still in the game because of my power. So I didn't see what his role card looked like at all.

I poked G-Man along in regards to replacing Leetic, as from my perspective he'd been inactive for multiple phases. G-Man couldn't really keep him in the game for much longer without me needing some form of explanation as to why he was still around. I kinda forced his hand there.

As for the whole PoE thing, I rest squarely on Rico's side. Frankly, the whole entire thing is just exhausting at this point, and I hope that in the future everybody can recognize everyone else's viewpoints as valid without dismissing them solely because they disagree on strategy. I also hope we can avoid people emphasizing one particular playstyle as the clear, superior, and obvious choice based on their anecdotal evidence, and chastising others for not getting behind them.

And that's all I have to say about that.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2561

Post by insertnamehere »

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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2562

Post by Golden »

I had a story I was able to tell inh if he pressed. It was that my role was to swap out a kill on Trump to someone else. I guess it would have been helpful in making me appear to be protecting Trump, although all of his lackeys were town as well...

I should have used that to infer what Trump's role was, but I never did. I always (right back from before I had this role) was thinking there might be some kind of redirect role in play, but I never considered that it was intentional self-defence.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2563

Post by JaggedJimmyJay »

Somehow I always seem to end up drawing the role that never dies.

Talking Heads, can't be night killed.
Turf Wars, would never be targeted anyway.
2015 GOC, immune to first night kill/lynch.
Red vs. Blue, other townies take bullets for me.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2564

Post by Epignosis »

Heists aren't really my thing, but I might still pop in from time to time. I prefer the more elaborate goings on.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2565

Post by JaggedJimmyJay »

I think the main reason I usually prefer simpler games is that I can be more confident that they're balanced. I tend to play Mafia so dang hard that it's ideal to feel like it's worthwhile, and that all that effort has at least a decent chance of helping my team win the game.

I think that generally speaking the more complex a game is, the less balanced it is. There are exceptions of course. I think complexity tends to work against town though and in role madness games (open or closed setups) I always have less faith that what I am doing really matters that much.

I also probably just have a general preference for the core investigation/deception concept of Mafia over games more reliant upon night actions and such. To each their own. :)
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Overall: 73-57 (.56) | Town 49-41 (.54) | Mafia 18-11 (.62) | Independent 6-4 (.60)

The Syndicate: Town 23-26; Mafia 10-5; Indy 5-1 | RateYourMusic: Town 14-13; Mafia 5-4; Indy 0-3 | Mafia Universe: Town 6-0; Mafia 1-0 | Student Doctor Network: Town 2-1; Mafia 1-0 | HeroClixRealms: Town 1-0; Mafia 0-1 | Bulbagarden: Mafia 0-1; Indy 1-0 | 2+2 POG: Town 1-0 | Naruto Forums: Town 0-1 | Personality Café: Town 1-0 | Vendetta Strada: Town 0-1 | Mafia451: Town 1-0 | Wintreath: Mafia 1-0

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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2566

Post by Golden »

I want to point out I did the exact opposite of 'chastising people for not getting behind them'. I tried to explain the concept, and got a lot of people who chastised me for having it. To which I responded things like the following:
Golden wrote:Btw Rico, I don't think you have to AGREE with this way of thinking about the game
Golden wrote:All I hear your posts saying, rico, is 'I'm a great mafia player the way I am, I refuse to take on board anything that could change my perspective'.

Which is your prerogative, and fine if you want to be that way - Epi will probably call what we are talking about bullshit as well, and you are both great players, so it's certainly a view you can have.
So, while I was very much trying to explain to people the way in which I was playing and make it very clear, and what I found is people were rejecting it outright without even trying to understand it, I was trying very expressly to make it clear that I did not expect others to play that way and that I was trying to explain why I was using it. In response, this was the kind of stuff I was getting...
insertnamehere wrote:So lemme get this straight. You've invented arbitrary reasons why people HAVE to be town. You've also invented arbitrary reasons why they HAVE to be scum. You go through with this method, and start lynching. Unfortunately, you bump off a civilian. Instead of thinking, "Oh gee, maybe my reasoning was incorrect." you double down and try to lynch more people for the same exact reasons.

I guess I'm not the type of person who can gleefully murder one innocent person to save five others, and then pat myself on the back for doing so.

I also think this entire style of gameplay is downright dangerous to civilians. You've essentially built yourself a little echo chamber where you can have a little list of people, and proceed to try and bump every single one of them off, completely indifferent to anything which may prove you wrong, because you have more faith in the system than anything else.
insertnamehere wrote:I disagree that this is good strategy, and I disagree that this is what civilians should listen to and do. I think your goals are misguided and wrong.
insertnamehere wrote:Then again, I believe that the only difference between how 3J/Golden and everyone else plays the game is a combination of apathy towards lynched civilians, complete and utter conviction in reads that will never be doubted for a second, (that last one describes Golden more than 3J) and an air of superiority.
So I very much hope that when you make that comment, you are being honest in your analysis about exactly who was being chastised, and who was doing the chastising, for 'not getting in behind' someone else's playstyle. I never expect others to play the game the way I play it, and if others do see merit in it then that's neat. But I don't expect others to, and I'm certainly not chastising anyone for not. In turn, I hope that people come out of this understanding that the PoE is a legitimate way of playing, and don't chastise me or others for using it.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2567

Post by Epignosis »

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I think the main reason I usually prefer simpler games is that I can be more confident that they're balanced. I tend to play Mafia so dang hard that it's ideal to feel like it's worthwhile, and that all that effort has at least a decent chance of helping my team win the game.

I think that generally speaking the more complex a game is, the less balanced it is. There are exceptions of course. I think complexity tends to work against town though and in role madness games (open or closed setups) I always have less faith that what I am doing really matters that much.

I also probably just have a general preference for the core investigation/deception concept of Mafia over games more reliant upon night actions and such. To each their own. :)
Civilians win more in my games than mafia do. :)
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2568

Post by Golden »

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I think that generally speaking the more complex a game is, the less balanced it is.
This is probably true, but I also think that large complex games have an additional factor, which is that it does not matter how balanced it starts, the number of potential outcomes available make it far more likely to become imbalanced as the game wears on. I've had complex games (like BSG) where the town has come through to a resounding win that I think was possible because of the number of events designed to potentially go either way that went the towns way.
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Canucklehead wrote:Civ Golden is a hurricane of self-assurance.
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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2569

Post by JaggedJimmyJay »

It's probably not coincidental that the two people who utilized PoE in this game the most frequently are the ones who experienced dominating town wins in Thingyman's tournaments. My season 2 qualifier game was won going away with that strategy at the forefront, and it's something that stuck with me after that. Both of Golden's season 3 games were similar, and it's obvious that it has stuck with him too.

Maybe it's something folks have to see work. I dunno.

There are a thousand ways to play Mafia.
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Overall: 73-57 (.56) | Town 49-41 (.54) | Mafia 18-11 (.62) | Independent 6-4 (.60)

The Syndicate: Town 23-26; Mafia 10-5; Indy 5-1 | RateYourMusic: Town 14-13; Mafia 5-4; Indy 0-3 | Mafia Universe: Town 6-0; Mafia 1-0 | Student Doctor Network: Town 2-1; Mafia 1-0 | HeroClixRealms: Town 1-0; Mafia 0-1 | Bulbagarden: Mafia 0-1; Indy 1-0 | 2+2 POG: Town 1-0 | Naruto Forums: Town 0-1 | Personality Café: Town 1-0 | Vendetta Strada: Town 0-1 | Mafia451: Town 1-0 | Wintreath: Mafia 1-0

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Re: RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

#2570

Post by JaggedJimmyJay »

Epignosis wrote:Civilians win more in my games than mafia do. :)
You've hosted a million games obviously, and I know balance is something you pay a lot of attention to in that role. :nicenod:
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Overall: 73-57 (.56) | Town 49-41 (.54) | Mafia 18-11 (.62) | Independent 6-4 (.60)

The Syndicate: Town 23-26; Mafia 10-5; Indy 5-1 | RateYourMusic: Town 14-13; Mafia 5-4; Indy 0-3 | Mafia Universe: Town 6-0; Mafia 1-0 | Student Doctor Network: Town 2-1; Mafia 1-0 | HeroClixRealms: Town 1-0; Mafia 0-1 | Bulbagarden: Mafia 0-1; Indy 1-0 | 2+2 POG: Town 1-0 | Naruto Forums: Town 0-1 | Personality Café: Town 1-0 | Vendetta Strada: Town 0-1 | Mafia451: Town 1-0 | Wintreath: Mafia 1-0

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Best Moderator, Maffies 8 and 9
Most Valuable Player, Maffies 7 and 9
Best Roleplay, Maffies 4 and 6
Spirit Award, Maffies 9
Hall of Fame inductee, Maffies 4

Mafia Universe

Mafia Championship Finalist, 2015 and 2020
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Hosts:

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