RED vs. BLUE: Endgame

[insertnamehere]

[Golden]

I had a story I was able to tell inh if he pressed. It was that my role was to swap out a kill on Trump to someone else. I guess it would have been helpful in making me appear to be protecting Trump, although all of his lackeys were town as well...

I should have used that to infer what Trump's role was, but I never did. I always (right back from before I had this role) was thinking there might be some kind of redirect role in play, but I never considered that it was intentional self-defence.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Somehow I always seem to end up drawing the role that never dies.

Talking Heads, can't be night killed.
Turf Wars, would never be targeted anyway.
2015 GOC, immune to first night kill/lynch.
Red vs. Blue, other townies take bullets for me.

[Epignosis]

Heists aren't really my thing, but I might still pop in from time to time. I prefer the more elaborate goings on.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think the main reason I usually prefer simpler games is that I can be more confident that they're balanced. I tend to play Mafia so dang hard that it's ideal to feel like it's worthwhile, and that all that effort has at least a decent chance of helping my team win the game.

I think that generally speaking the more complex a game is, the less balanced it is. There are exceptions of course. I think complexity tends to work against town though and in role madness games (open or closed setups) I always have less faith that what I am doing really matters that much.

I also probably just have a general preference for the core investigation/deception concept of Mafia over games more reliant upon night actions and such. To each their own.

[Golden]

I want to point out I did the exact opposite of 'chastising people for not getting behind them'. I tried to explain the concept, and got a lot of people who chastised me for having it. To which I responded things like the following:

Btw Rico, I don't think you have to AGREE with this way of thinking about the game

All I hear your posts saying, rico, is 'I'm a great mafia player the way I am, I refuse to take on board anything that could change my perspective'.

Which is your prerogative, and fine if you want to be that way - Epi will probably call what we are talking about bullshit as well, and you are both great players, so it's certainly a view you can have.

So, while I was very much trying to explain to people the way in which I was playing and make it very clear, and what I found is people were rejecting it outright without even trying to understand it, I was trying very expressly to make it clear that I did not expect others to play that way and that I was trying to explain why I was using it. In response, this was the kind of stuff I was getting...

So lemme get this straight. You've invented arbitrary reasons why people HAVE to be town. You've also invented arbitrary reasons why they HAVE to be scum. You go through with this method, and start lynching. Unfortunately, you bump off a civilian. Instead of thinking, "Oh gee, maybe my reasoning was incorrect." you double down and try to lynch more people for the same exact reasons.

I guess I'm not the type of person who can gleefully murder one innocent person to save five others, and then pat myself on the back for doing so.

I also think this entire style of gameplay is downright dangerous to civilians. You've essentially built yourself a little echo chamber where you can have a little list of people, and proceed to try and bump every single one of them off, completely indifferent to anything which may prove you wrong, because you have more faith in the system than anything else.

I disagree that this is good strategy, and I disagree that this is what civilians should listen to and do. I think your goals are misguided and wrong.

Then again, I believe that the only difference between how 3J/Golden and everyone else plays the game is a combination of apathy towards lynched civilians, complete and utter conviction in reads that will never be doubted for a second, (that last one describes Golden more than 3J) and an air of superiority.

So I very much hope that when you make that comment, you are being honest in your analysis about exactly who was being chastised, and who was doing the chastising, for 'not getting in behind' someone else's playstyle. I never expect others to play the game the way I play it, and if others do see merit in it then that's neat. But I don't expect others to, and I'm certainly not chastising anyone for not. In turn, I hope that people come out of this understanding that the PoE is a legitimate way of playing, and don't chastise me or others for using it.

[Epignosis]

I think the main reason I usually prefer simpler games is that I can be more confident that they're balanced. I tend to play Mafia so dang hard that it's ideal to feel like it's worthwhile, and that all that effort has at least a decent chance of helping my team win the game.

I think that generally speaking the more complex a game is, the less balanced it is. There are exceptions of course. I think complexity tends to work against town though and in role madness games (open or closed setups) I always have less faith that what I am doing really matters that much.

I also probably just have a general preference for the core investigation/deception concept of Mafia over games more reliant upon night actions and such. To each their own.

Civilians win more in my games than mafia do.

[Golden]

I think that generally speaking the more complex a game is, the less balanced it is.

This is probably true, but I also think that large complex games have an additional factor, which is that it does not matter how balanced it starts, the number of potential outcomes available make it far more likely to become imbalanced as the game wears on. I've had complex games (like BSG) where the town has come through to a resounding win that I think was possible because of the number of events designed to potentially go either way that went the towns way.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

It's probably not coincidental that the two people who utilized PoE in this game the most frequently are the ones who experienced dominating town wins in Thingyman's tournaments. My season 2 qualifier game was won going away with that strategy at the forefront, and it's something that stuck with me after that. Both of Golden's season 3 games were similar, and it's obvious that it has stuck with him too.

Maybe it's something folks have to see work. I dunno.

There are a thousand ways to play Mafia.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Civilians win more in my games than mafia do.

You've hosted a million games obviously, and I know balance is something you pay a lot of attention to in that role.

[Marmot]

I used PoE in Recruitment Mafia before it was cool.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I used PoE in Recruitment Mafia before it was cool.

[Golden]

I used PoE in Recruitment Mafia before it was cool.

We are now in the post-cool era. It didn't last long.

[DrWilgy]

I'm curious. Why was I killed... Twice?

[Marmot]

I'm curious. Why was I killed... Twice?

Looks like Epignosis killed you Night 1, then he killed you again Night 3.

But the second time, he tried to kill Triple-J, whose role redirected the kill to you.

[Epignosis]

I'm curious. Why was I killed... Twice?

I was trying to eliminate roles with powers. I thought you had one.

[Marmot]

Was there a Spectator Chat for this game?

[G-Man]

Was there a Spectator Chat for this game?

Yes but it was poorly attended. Maybe if another game requiring 38 players hadn't been going on at the same time, a few people may have stumbled upon it. Then again, a heist game featuring more posts than most Speed games may have scared people off too. Seriously, over 10% of JJJ's total posts sitewide come from this game.

[G-Man]

Under 24 hours to go to submit your MVP votes!

[G-Man]

Voting is over. In one last surprise twist, METALMARSH89 has been voted MVP of the game. Congratulations!

[Ricochet]

Has a request for a recount been filed?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think that's a deserved recognition. I hope you don't take it the wrong way Golden, because you also played well and would have been deserving. I think this is one of those scenarios where the person who played the best Mafia might not have been in the winning faction. Marmot had a hell of a town game and I'm glad it was noticed.

[Ricochet]

It's not the first time, actually, when the MVP is not from Camp Win.

Plus, it's very appropriate to the theme: you can't screw everyone over and expect to earn the popular vote.

[Golden]

I would have been disappointed to win MVP. Economics this was not. I voted mm!

[Golden]

Although, actually, I think my performance of a member of the town (in both roles - since I never realised that I wasn't a member of the town in any scenario after the mafia were dead) was a long way better than my performance as sk. Even though I did correctly identify the last member of mafia and Trump with my kills, I think that this speaks far more to how well I was seeing the game as a townie than to how well I played as a sk.

[Marmot]

Voting is over. In one last surprise twist, METALMARSH89 has been voted MVP of the game. Congratulations!

Thank you for the votes everyone! Most importantly, I think we did a good job of putting a team effort into this one. Go team!

[G-Man]

EPILOGUE

David Koch sat in his favorite chair, reveling at the chaos unwinding on his television. Donald Trump was dead and media pundits were falling all over themselves to cover the first assassination of a presidential candidate in almost 50 years. First, there was the crime itself. A massive manhunt was underway for Donald’s son-in-law, Jared Kushner.

Second, there was the political fallout. What would the RNC do now? Who would replace Trump as the nominee? With ballot deadlines fast approaching for most states, the Republican Party had to act fast to avoid widespread confusion on Election Day. David didn’t care. He would wield his money and influence over the GOP in an attempt plant his desired politician as the replacement. If that failed, he could stomach four years of Hillary. When you’re a billionaire, it’s easy to stomach a lot of things.

His brother was in the other room, talking on the phone. His face soured at his brother’s happy discourse and tone. Charles Koch walked into the room and flashed a smug grin as he finished his phone call.

“So Jeb made it to the safe house?” David asked even though he already knew the answer.

“Yes,” Charles said. “He is officially off the grid now. And to think, you suggested we hire Ted Cruz for this mission.”

“Yes, indeed. What next, then?”

“Just like we planned,” Charles explained. “In two weeks, he will be picked up and undergo surgery to make him look like himself again.”

“And he knows that this means he cannot be the replacement candidate?”

“Yes, he is well aware of that.”

“Good then,” David said. “I think I’ll go for a drive.” He got up from his chair and made it halfway across the room before his brother coughed in an attention-getting way.

“Don’t forget about our bet, David,” he said. “You lost.”

“Indeed I did,” David sighed. “Which of your accounts shall I wire your million dollars to?”

“None of them,” Charles said. “I think this time I’d like my winnings in hand. Gold bullion will do nicely.”

--------------------------------------------

Pamela Brown woke up in a strange place. It took her a minute to realize that she was in a hospital room. She racked her brain to recall what put her here. Then she noticed a boy sitting in a chair, staring at her with contempt. It all came back to her in an instant- the mission, the accident, everything.

“Good,” Barron Trump said, “you’re awake.”

“What happened? How long have I been out?”

“None of that matters right now. At least, not to me. My father and sister are dead. I don’t know if you’re responsible for that but until I learn otherwise, I am going to treat you as though you are. I don’t know who you are yet but you are going to tell me everything you know about Operation Cobalt and the people you work for.

“Now that you’re awake, we can take you anywhere we want for further treatment. Your cooperation will determine where we take you, the duration of your stay, and the conditions you will be subjected to. I will avenge my father. Believe me.”

--------------------------------------------

Will Barron Trump get his revenge?

Find out in BLUE vs. RED

Coming ???

[Marmot]

I like mafia games with recurring characters. This'll be exciting!

[G-Man]

I am going to lock this thread and request it to be transferred over to the archives. The game has been over for more than a week now, so it's time to move on. Replacing this spot on the main page with a big gaping hole may even help spur interest in the other games currently in sign-ups. It's time for the next Heist host to step up as well!

Thanks for playing, everyone. It was fun and just a tad surreal.