Why didn't you counterclaim against FZ.?Long Con wrote:Long Con wrote:
Long Con
speedchuck
Epignosis
Elohcin
Dyslexicon - Sorry, but the third baddie would know to buddy me.
insertnamehere - bad vote today, careless
Marmot - Looked really bad in today's vote, to me.
JaggedJimmyJay - Absolutely looks like well-planned distancing from FZ when you look back over his posts. So much of it.
FZ.
Currents Mafia [END]
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Re: Currents Mafia [DAY 3]
Stream my music for free: https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/
- Long Con
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Re: Currents Mafia [DAY 3]
1. Because you did.Epignosis wrote:Why didn't you counterclaim against FZ.?Long Con wrote:Long Con wrote:
Long Con
speedchuck
Epignosis
Elohcin
Dyslexicon - Sorry, but the third baddie would know to buddy me.
insertnamehere - bad vote today, careless
Marmot - Looked really bad in today's vote, to me.
JaggedJimmyJay - Absolutely looks like well-planned distancing from FZ when you look back over his posts. So much of it.
FZ.
2. I said she was lying
- JaggedJimmyJay
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
A few thoughts:
~ Lynching nutella first was big. She has learned to clear herself effectively when civilian and to prevent that was significant.
~ The MP kill was unorthodox in that it wasn't cop-centric. It's almost the exact same kill my team made in the champs finale two years ago in this setup. MP was the motivational heart of the civilian faction and we ripped it out. The thread stagnated thereafter, to our gain.
~ The Luke kill was a mistake, and Dizzy and I get most of the blame for that. FZ wanted Epi. Luke was our #1 cop and Long Con was #2.
~ The fake cop claim was an idea all three of us developed at all times until it was needed. When the time came, FZ's execution was excellent.
~ When Golden subbed in, I said "aw SHIT" to my laptop screen. I sensed an unspoken mutual distrust between us, like a strategic shadow war waiting to reveal itself. I never believed he trusted me. Had I gone to a final three he'd have been dead, which is the ultimate nod of respect. I was literally a mafioso tinfoiling on a civilian.
~ Dizzy did an awesome job putting effortful content into the thread under pressure. Both of my teammates were fantastic in what I consider my core baddie belief: being suspected means nothing. Who gives a crap. Just get to the next day.
~ I didn't want to kill Epi. He gets killed too damned much. The cop ID sealed it though.
~ This was extremely close to going the other way. My hammer vote on INH processed simultaneous to the poll ending. We'd have been dead to rights.
Again, great game everyone.
~ Lynching nutella first was big. She has learned to clear herself effectively when civilian and to prevent that was significant.
~ The MP kill was unorthodox in that it wasn't cop-centric. It's almost the exact same kill my team made in the champs finale two years ago in this setup. MP was the motivational heart of the civilian faction and we ripped it out. The thread stagnated thereafter, to our gain.
~ The Luke kill was a mistake, and Dizzy and I get most of the blame for that. FZ wanted Epi. Luke was our #1 cop and Long Con was #2.
~ The fake cop claim was an idea all three of us developed at all times until it was needed. When the time came, FZ's execution was excellent.
~ When Golden subbed in, I said "aw SHIT" to my laptop screen. I sensed an unspoken mutual distrust between us, like a strategic shadow war waiting to reveal itself. I never believed he trusted me. Had I gone to a final three he'd have been dead, which is the ultimate nod of respect. I was literally a mafioso tinfoiling on a civilian.
~ Dizzy did an awesome job putting effortful content into the thread under pressure. Both of my teammates were fantastic in what I consider my core baddie belief: being suspected means nothing. Who gives a crap. Just get to the next day.
~ I didn't want to kill Epi. He gets killed too damned much. The cop ID sealed it though.
~ This was extremely close to going the other way. My hammer vote on INH processed simultaneous to the poll ending. We'd have been dead to rights.
Again, great game everyone.
Spoiler: show
Re: Currents Mafia [DAY 3]
I shouldn't bother with these types of games then.Long Con wrote:1. Because you did.Epignosis wrote:Why didn't you counterclaim against FZ.?Long Con wrote:Long Con wrote:
Long Con
speedchuck
Epignosis
Elohcin
Dyslexicon - Sorry, but the third baddie would know to buddy me.
insertnamehere - bad vote today, careless
Marmot - Looked really bad in today's vote, to me.
JaggedJimmyJay - Absolutely looks like well-planned distancing from FZ when you look back over his posts. So much of it.
FZ.
2. I said she was lying
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Re: Currents Mafia [DAY 3]
Whaa, no, I thought it was AWESOME! Mostly because I thought you believed in me, and were throwing yourself in the path of the bullet.Epignosis wrote:I shouldn't bother with these types of games then.Long Con wrote:1. Because you did.Epignosis wrote:Why didn't you counterclaim against FZ.?Long Con wrote:Long Con wrote:
Long Con
speedchuck
Epignosis
Elohcin
Dyslexicon - Sorry, but the third baddie would know to buddy me.
insertnamehere - bad vote today, careless
Marmot - Looked really bad in today's vote, to me.
JaggedJimmyJay - Absolutely looks like well-planned distancing from FZ when you look back over his posts. So much of it.
FZ.
2. I said she was lying
I am of the opinion that the game was all but lost on that lynch because of an unfortunately apathetic night on the Civ front. People just weren't there to get convinced that FZ was lying.
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
I didn't really follow this game at all after I got lynched but wow. JJJ and Dizzy can be baddies?? That's possible??
Congrats guys.
Congrats guys.
avatar art credit to chardonnay! (colors added by me tho)
http://www.last.fm/user/nutella23 ~ http://ofmonstersandmintcookies.tumblr.com ~ https://rateyourmusic.com/~nutella23
http://www.last.fm/user/nutella23 ~ http://ofmonstersandmintcookies.tumblr.com ~ https://rateyourmusic.com/~nutella23
- Golden
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
There is no way I was letting you get lynched if I'd been around on that day one. Biggest travesty in the game. People still don't seem to get you.nutella wrote:I didn't really follow this game at all after I got lynched but wow. JJJ and Dizzy can be baddies?? That's possible??
Congrats guys.
- Long Con
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
It was a good game. FZ pulled off a masterfully-timed fake cop claim and got me, the cop, lynched. Makes me want to play another game just like this, armed with the experience of this fakeclaim. Completely blindsided me!nutella wrote:I didn't really follow this game at all after I got lynched but wow. JJJ and Dizzy can be baddies?? That's possible??
Congrats guys.
- speedchuck
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
I want to apologize for not being on top of my game. Being sick for a whole week was legit, and it put me way behind. Behind enough to get LC to waste a Cop Check on my sorry butt. :P
Good game, though, scum. Even when here I couldn't read you guys for crap.
When we have bad gut feels about someone D1, can we not murder everyone else till D3? While FZ played us well there, we have no excuse for that one.
Good game, though, scum. Even when here I couldn't read you guys for crap.
When we have bad gut feels about someone D1, can we not murder everyone else till D3? While FZ played us well there, we have no excuse for that one.
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- speedchuck
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
On a note, you did get to see a good bit of vanilla town chuck.
My vanilla town game is pretty bad.
My vanilla town game is pretty bad.
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- Sloonei
- Cap'n Sloonbeard
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
Good game, folks. And thanks for making my first MoD experience a breeze.
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- Golden
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
I might need you now after it turns out Jay is literally Houdini.Sloonei wrote:Good game, folks. And thanks for making my first MoD experience a breeze.
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
I think this is the most balanced setup I've seen. Having played it 4 times now, it really is perfect for equalizing the matchup. Its weakness is that it is so cop-focused that the entire game revolves around that player. Being the cop in this setup is probably more pressure than being mafia.Long Con wrote:It was a good game. FZ pulled off a masterfully-timed fake cop claim and got me, the cop, lynched. Makes me want to play another game just like this, armed with the experience of this fakeclaim. Completely blindsided me!nutella wrote:I didn't really follow this game at all after I got lynched but wow. JJJ and Dizzy can be baddies?? That's possible??
Congrats guys.
I've never been the cop though. Vanilla town twice and mafia twice.
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- JaggedJimmyJay
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
I was so mad when I drew mafia in my Vompatti game. I really intended to do that the entire game and only stopped because I was bad and wanted to support my teammates better.
I was so ready to phone it in if I'd been a civilian.
I was so ready to phone it in if I'd been a civilian.
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- Indecent Bastard
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
When you stopped Vompatti'ing it I was about to make a NP joke about it but I thought that you could be doing exactly this so I'm glad I didn't end up doing it and giving people ammo against youJaggedJimmyJay wrote:I was so mad when I drew mafia in my Vompatti game. I really intended to do that the entire game and only stopped because I was bad and wanted to support my teammates better.
I was so ready to phone it in if I'd been a civilian.
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- Golden
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
I put a lot of thought into your Vomping. Trying to figure out if this was really Jay Vomping as best as possible, or if there was a little too much effort for that and it was indicative of you being bad. I also thought about the fact you were moving into a mafia break...JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I was so mad when I drew mafia in my Vompatti game. I really intended to do that the entire game and only stopped because I was bad and wanted to support my teammates better.
I was so ready to phone it in if I'd been a civilian.
In the end I discarded all of it. It was influencing me reading you just based on the thread.
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Re: Currents Mafia [DAY 3]
These lynch end times were bad for me this past week. I've been spending my spring break working for a friend, and haven't been able to be around at End-of-Day time. This is no harp on Floyd by the way (you did great! Extremely punctual!). Just me grumbling over missing all the crazy End-of-Day shenanigans.Long Con wrote:Whaa, no, I thought it was AWESOME! Mostly because I thought you believed in me, and were throwing yourself in the path of the bullet.Epignosis wrote:I shouldn't bother with these types of games then.Long Con wrote:1. Because you did.Epignosis wrote:Why didn't you counterclaim against FZ.?Long Con wrote:Long Con wrote:
Long Con
speedchuck
Epignosis
Elohcin
Dyslexicon - Sorry, but the third baddie would know to buddy me.
insertnamehere - bad vote today, careless
Marmot - Looked really bad in today's vote, to me.
JaggedJimmyJay - Absolutely looks like well-planned distancing from FZ when you look back over his posts. So much of it.
FZ.
2. I said she was lying
I am of the opinion that the game was all but lost on that lynch because of an unfortunately apathetic night on the Civ front. People just weren't there to get convinced that FZ was lying.
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?
The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
I don't know if I would have handled the FZ case differently, probably not, but I did manage to catch that in a skim on my phone and vote LC accordingly. I agree, masterfully played FZ.
But missing this last EoD sucked. But them's the breaks I guess.
But missing this last EoD sucked. But them's the breaks I guess.
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?
The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
-
- Uomini D'onore (Man of Honor)
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
Lol Jay is suddenly mafia all the time.
I've unleashed a monster with GYBE.
I've unleashed a monster with GYBE.
- Marmot
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
Who was mafia in GY!BE?Ricochet wrote:Lol Jay is suddenly mafia all the time.
I've unleashed a monster with GYBE.
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?
The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
-
- Uomini D'onore (Man of Honor)
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
He was anti-civ, tis my point.Marmot wrote:Who was mafia in GY!BE?Ricochet wrote:Lol Jay is suddenly mafia all the time.
I've unleashed a monster with GYBE.
Re: Currents Mafia [END]
Oh wow, we won?? Well done guys!
This was one of my worst games as mafia. I was so bummed getting the pm saying I was mafia, and I knew it would be really hard for me coming from a long break (after getting NK very early last game). I felt bad for JJJ and Dizzy for screwing it up for them. I'm glad the cop claim gamble worked out. I worked hard to make sure I can back it up in the thread, but I don't think anyone actually bothered to check...
You all should have really lynched me on that first day. I deserved it. The only one who gets off for not doing it is Epi who might have PTSD when it comes to lynching me, because of that one infamous game which he wrongfully pushed for my lynch.
I think LC played an amazing game. I wanted to kill him every night. I think he disguised his cop role very cleverly, and it took us time to realise it was him. I think your only mistake LC, was when I faked claim, you should have outed yourself at that point. First of all, if you're going to get lynched, better take a baddie down and then die. By that time we knew you were the cop, so there was no point in hiding it. That lynch was the turning point for us, but like my partners said, it could have gone either way at any point in the game. I think both JJJ and I were on the chopping board way too often, especially me. And that Luke mistake almost cost us the game.
When it comes down to it, I think the civvies saw through all of us, but just made some really bad decisions at EOD.
JJJ and Dizzy, thanks for not giving up on me. It was fun planning and plotting with you. While I hate being mafia, I got lucky with my team And thanks for winning the game for us!
Floyd, thank you for hosting the game. It's great that you took on the challenge of hosting, and I think you did great. I still haven't been able to do it.
This was one of my worst games as mafia. I was so bummed getting the pm saying I was mafia, and I knew it would be really hard for me coming from a long break (after getting NK very early last game). I felt bad for JJJ and Dizzy for screwing it up for them. I'm glad the cop claim gamble worked out. I worked hard to make sure I can back it up in the thread, but I don't think anyone actually bothered to check...
You all should have really lynched me on that first day. I deserved it. The only one who gets off for not doing it is Epi who might have PTSD when it comes to lynching me, because of that one infamous game which he wrongfully pushed for my lynch.
I think LC played an amazing game. I wanted to kill him every night. I think he disguised his cop role very cleverly, and it took us time to realise it was him. I think your only mistake LC, was when I faked claim, you should have outed yourself at that point. First of all, if you're going to get lynched, better take a baddie down and then die. By that time we knew you were the cop, so there was no point in hiding it. That lynch was the turning point for us, but like my partners said, it could have gone either way at any point in the game. I think both JJJ and I were on the chopping board way too often, especially me. And that Luke mistake almost cost us the game.
When it comes down to it, I think the civvies saw through all of us, but just made some really bad decisions at EOD.
JJJ and Dizzy, thanks for not giving up on me. It was fun planning and plotting with you. While I hate being mafia, I got lucky with my team And thanks for winning the game for us!
Floyd, thank you for hosting the game. It's great that you took on the challenge of hosting, and I think you did great. I still haven't been able to do it.
- Golden
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
From an external perspective, I have to disagree FZ. I was never sure if you were bad or not, I could have seen you slip through. And the cop gambit was pulled off to perfection.
Re: Currents Mafia [END]
Thanks!! That's a big complement coming from you.Golden wrote:From an external perspective, I have to disagree FZ. I was never sure if you were bad or not, I could have seen you slip through. And the cop gambit was pulled off to perfection.
- Long Con
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
Yeah, I had you pegged from the get-go... although I used my day 0 peek on Epi for his strange start, I checked you on Night 1 because I thought you were bad. I was happy to let you keep living because I figured my continued pressure on you would make it too risky to nightkill me.FZ. wrote:Oh wow, we won?? Well done guys!
This was one of my worst games as mafia. I was so bummed getting the pm saying I was mafia, and I knew it would be really hard for me coming from a long break (after getting NK very early last game). I felt bad for JJJ and Dizzy for screwing it up for them. I'm glad the cop claim gamble worked out. I worked hard to make sure I can back it up in the thread, but I don't think anyone actually bothered to check...
You all should have really lynched me on that first day. I deserved it. The only one who gets off for not doing it is Epi who might have PTSD when it comes to lynching me, because of that one infamous game which he wrongfully pushed for my lynch.
I think LC played an amazing game. I wanted to kill him every night. I think he disguised his cop role very cleverly, and it took us time to realise it was him. I think your only mistake LC, was when I faked claim, you should have outed yourself at that point. First of all, if you're going to get lynched, better take a baddie down and then die. By that time we knew you were the cop, so there was no point in hiding it. That lynch was the turning point for us, but like my partners said, it could have gone either way at any point in the game. I think both JJJ and I were on the chopping board way too often, especially me. And that Luke mistake almost cost us the game.
When it comes down to it, I think the civvies saw through all of us, but just made some really bad decisions at EOD.
JJJ and Dizzy, thanks for not giving up on me. It was fun planning and plotting with you. While I hate being mafia, I got lucky with my team And thanks for winning the game for us!
Floyd, thank you for hosting the game. It's great that you took on the challenge of hosting, and I think you did great. I still haven't been able to do it.
People were Civ-reading me WAY too much from the start, and I made a decision to start acting sketchy in order to protect me from "he's so Civ" syndrome. "MP is bad k" and stuff like that were me trying to camouflage. IT was working great, but I just didn't see the fakeclaim coming, and I didn't react right... although I think my reaction, and what WOULD have been subsequent discussions, might have pulled it through for the Civs if there had been a higher level of presence at the time.
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
We can be awful vanilla townie buddies together!speedchuck wrote:On a note, you did get to see a good bit of vanilla town chuck.
My vanilla town game is pretty bad.
*high five
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?
The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
- speedchuck
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
Yeah!Marmot wrote:We can be awful vanilla townie buddies together!speedchuck wrote:On a note, you did get to see a good bit of vanilla town chuck.
My vanilla town game is pretty bad.
*high five
...
There is no high five emoji. *returns high five*
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Re: Currents Mafia [DAY 3]
This rainbow looks better LC. At least you don't have me listed red on this one.Long Con wrote:Shoot, I was supposed to copy that list over to here and post this post after updating it. Anyway, here you go:
So I went through JJJ's posts with the idea that I'm reading a baddie. I don't know how useful it was, because now I feel like he's bad. It was easy to see the baddie reasons for certain posts, I guess. I don't know if it's valid or not, but here's my updated rainbow list:
Long Con
speedchuck
Epignosis
Marmot
Elohcin
insertnamehere
JaggedJimmyJay
Dyslexicon
FZ.
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?
The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
- Long Con
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Re: Currents Mafia [DAY 3]
Damn, that is a sweet list. Sorry about that redness dude. Why did I suspect you?Marmot wrote:This rainbow looks better LC. At least you don't have me listed red on this one.Long Con wrote:Shoot, I was supposed to copy that list over to here and post this post after updating it. Anyway, here you go:
So I went through JJJ's posts with the idea that I'm reading a baddie. I don't know how useful it was, because now I feel like he's bad. It was easy to see the baddie reasons for certain posts, I guess. I don't know if it's valid or not, but here's my updated rainbow list:
Long Con
speedchuck
Epignosis
Marmot
Elohcin
insertnamehere
JaggedJimmyJay
Dyslexicon
FZ.
- Marmot
- Marmot
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Re: Currents Mafia [DAY 3]
Probably because I saw FZ's copclaim and voted you since she called you bad.Long Con wrote:Damn, that is a sweet list. Sorry about that redness dude. Why did I suspect you?Marmot wrote:This rainbow looks better LC. At least you don't have me listed red on this one.Long Con wrote:Shoot, I was supposed to copy that list over to here and post this post after updating it. Anyway, here you go:
So I went through JJJ's posts with the idea that I'm reading a baddie. I don't know how useful it was, because now I feel like he's bad. It was easy to see the baddie reasons for certain posts, I guess. I don't know if it's valid or not, but here's my updated rainbow list:
Long Con
speedchuck
Epignosis
Marmot
Elohcin
insertnamehere
JaggedJimmyJay
Dyslexicon
FZ.
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?
The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
- TheFloyd73
- The Mark
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
I"ve only received a handful of MVP votes. Need to send them pronto.
Winner:
Tree Mafia (MVP)
Lost Again Mafia (Season One)
Haiku Mafia
Game Of Champions 2016
Host:
Currents Mafia
Tree Mafia (MVP)
Lost Again Mafia (Season One)
Haiku Mafia
Game Of Champions 2016
Host:
Currents Mafia
- TheFloyd73
- The Mark
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
The MVP of Currents Mafia is...
...FZ!
Congrats!
...FZ!
Congrats!
Winner:
Tree Mafia (MVP)
Lost Again Mafia (Season One)
Haiku Mafia
Game Of Champions 2016
Host:
Currents Mafia
Tree Mafia (MVP)
Lost Again Mafia (Season One)
Haiku Mafia
Game Of Champions 2016
Host:
Currents Mafia
- Marmot
- Marmot
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
Congrats FZ! That was a well-deserved one. I know it stressed you out a bit, but your ability to stay alive and copclaim were top-notch.
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: ↑Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?
The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
- Dyslexicon
- <3
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
Congrats, FZ, well deserved!^^
- JaggedJimmyJay
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- speedchuck
- Knight of No Renown
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Re: Currents Mafia [END]
Seriously???
Thank you so much!! I honestly thought I played a bad game. I got us all into trouble on the first day and barely got out of it. I couldn't have made it in one piece if it wasn't for JJJ and Dizzy. It was really a joint effort. Even the possibility of a fake cop claim was discussed since day 0.
In any case, I thank those voting for me, and mostly, I thank those who believed my fake role claim
Thank you so much!! I honestly thought I played a bad game. I got us all into trouble on the first day and barely got out of it. I couldn't have made it in one piece if it wasn't for JJJ and Dizzy. It was really a joint effort. Even the possibility of a fake cop claim was discussed since day 0.
In any case, I thank those voting for me, and mostly, I thank those who believed my fake role claim
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Re: Currents Mafia [DAY 1]
still reading Dizzy in Currents, but this jumped at me in the second page of his ISO. It was a response to MP:
like, they literally used the same "o.o" text emoji and everything. alarming find. consider me hyper alarmed. will continue to read. i'm most curious to see how dizzy reacts to suspicion when they are scum and i haven't come across that yet.
they made a very similar post to me here:Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:51 pmThis cordial response is exactly the kind of thing that does not alleviate any concerns lol. But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate it. Mafia is a terrible game. o.oMovingPictures07 wrote:I understand your response regarding my mannerisms. I would emphasize that they're non-alignment-indicative, but obviously you can do with that information however you wish. When I'm actually invested in games, I've grown accustomed to getting the eyeball. I'm not always good at dealing with it but feel free to suspect or prod me however you like, and I'll try to do my best to alleviate any concerns.
Dyslexicon wrote: ↑Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:30 pmUgh, I'm not getting less paranoid with you suddenly being extremely nice to me o.odunya wrote: ↑Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:23 pmsweet dizzy, so much has happened since that post. i'm like, 100% sure it's him now and he was buddying me and trying to manipulate meDyslexicon wrote: ↑Thu Nov 22, 2018 3:20 pmCan you explain why? Is there some dynamic I'm unaware of here?
sorry if i gave you grief in this game for suspecting you before, i've never played with you before now. i feel like after the first game we will have a better grasp of each other's meta.
But I also don't want to be a jerk, and I completely think that anything you've done this game is fair and all no matter your alignment. It's just that I can't not get affected by it. And yeah, I'm also suspected a lot with players who are unfamiliar with me (but as I said also scaped goated on this site, or at least attempted, so I'm a bit hyper aware).
like, they literally used the same "o.o" text emoji and everything. alarming find. consider me hyper alarmed. will continue to read. i'm most curious to see how dizzy reacts to suspicion when they are scum and i haven't come across that yet.