Mafia Championship Scrimmage [END]

[Marco]

@silverwolf, I posted already that my no. 1 problem with frog's plan is that it makes it harder to look at vote histories later.

I was posting a semi long post about a2thezebra but I had a power cut just near the end of it. Posting this from my phone, so give me an hour or so for my power to be back and I can get back to you more properly. I also have to respond to zexy.

[Tangrowth]

so after rereading the first few pages (more like glossed), sig seems odd, I agree on silvers idea of MP being "cautious" (town should not care IMO)

town read delex, frog (not doing the plan), and sloonie.

anyone else want to talk to me go right ahead i got about 20-30 mins

Town shouldn't care about where they cast their votes?

"sig seems odd".
1) Does odd = suspicious?
2) How does sig seem odd?
3) Do you suspect sig?

[Silverwolf]

Spoiler: show

I just woke up and am still a little cranky but I have to rant for a bit cuz it's bugging me and will make me feel better:

In Turf Wars, I went after low content lurkers and turned out to be right that some of them were scum. I was basically discredited by townies in that game as being tinfoil because those posters had low content and they kept going after each other and the wrong people. Even after I was killed, they ignored me.

My MP vote was to get a reaction out of him. I DO NOT appreciate Golden's insinuations that I was going after him for RL which I would never do. Golden kept twisting it to that and it pissed me off. There was nothing wrong with my vote and I have no idea of MP's alignment-I'm gonna go read all his posts a little later-but I DO NOT appreciate Golden interfering with my vote and interaction with MP and defending MP the way he did. If MP is town and Golden is town, it's fine but there is no way for Golden to know that unless he's scum.

I think he's scum who knows MP's alignment. It's the only way for him to be that defensive of him because it's way too early with too little content to get a read on MP so he's not defending a townread as town.

He's a damn good player. As scum, it is easy to get into an argument and be all logical and level headed and look like town. Who's to say he didn't do that? That said, I'm gonna read all the reactions to is and see what others thing. I incorrectly tunneled Golden in Turf Wars when he was town and even though I realized that and backed off then, I don't want to make the same mistake here. Also, us tunneling back and forth will get us nowhere. I need to get some reads on and ISO others today.

ika defending me is null, he defends me all the time but I need to see more than just defending me here from him when he can post properly again

Have you read my posts on this topic before writing this?

No, I hadn't read the new comments yet. I am doing that now.

[ika]

so after rereading the first few pages (more like glossed), sig seems odd, I agree on silvers idea of MP being "cautious" (town should not care IMO)

town read delex, frog (not doing the plan), and sloonie.

anyone else want to talk to me go right ahead i got about 20-30 mins

I want to know if you have the intention of reading the whole thread before day ends?

probally not. this is not only due to the fact im heading out, but if i fall behind and try to read i jsut start glossing over and get disintrested.

its noramly why i try to go from the start

[ika]

so after rereading the first few pages (more like glossed), sig seems odd, I agree on silvers idea of MP being "cautious" (town should not care IMO)

town read delex, frog (not doing the plan), and sloonie.

anyone else want to talk to me go right ahead i got about 20-30 mins

Town shouldn't care about where they cast their votes?

"sig seems odd".
1) Does odd = suspicious?
2) How does sig seem odd?
3) Do you suspect sig?

yes, town has a lack of anwareness and woundt car if they voted willy nilly(ie me and silver do it all the time as town), scums try to move their votes little as possible to not be caught by their votes

that being said, what i find odd about sig is that hes diffrent then what i played with him before.

[ika]

ok heading out dunno when i can post again

[DrWilgy]

Omoshiroi

Frog you amuse me. I'm in agreement with this plan.

If you're agreeing with this you're one of the people who is up for a lynch. Good idea?

Also, if you agree, then why is your vote not on anyone? Are you caught up with the thread?

Using the hammer by this means will help us gain valuable information based on flip. If I cannot be judged based on my little contribution, at least by this plan I can assist town in some way.

The only negative I see is the potential of hitting a low key civ power role.

No I'm horribly behind. I've been looking for my name during my skim though. Still have a bad gut feel on Sloon. I'm having trouble reading Sig. I have a bad gut feel on Golden.

[Dyslexicon]

Spoiler: show

I just woke up and am still a little cranky but I have to rant for a bit cuz it's bugging me and will make me feel better:

In Turf Wars, I went after low content lurkers and turned out to be right that some of them were scum. I was basically discredited by townies in that game as being tinfoil because those posters had low content and they kept going after each other and the wrong people. Even after I was killed, they ignored me.

My MP vote was to get a reaction out of him. I DO NOT appreciate Golden's insinuations that I was going after him for RL which I would never do. Golden kept twisting it to that and it pissed me off. There was nothing wrong with my vote and I have no idea of MP's alignment-I'm gonna go read all his posts a little later-but I DO NOT appreciate Golden interfering with my vote and interaction with MP and defending MP the way he did. If MP is town and Golden is town, it's fine but there is no way for Golden to know that unless he's scum.

I think he's scum who knows MP's alignment. It's the only way for him to be that defensive of him because it's way too early with too little content to get a read on MP so he's not defending a townread as town.

He's a damn good player. As scum, it is easy to get into an argument and be all logical and level headed and look like town. Who's to say he didn't do that? That said, I'm gonna read all the reactions to is and see what others thing. I incorrectly tunneled Golden in Turf Wars when he was town and even though I realized that and backed off then, I don't want to make the same mistake here. Also, us tunneling back and forth will get us nowhere. I need to get some reads on and ISO others today.

ika defending me is null, he defends me all the time but I need to see more than just defending me here from him when he can post properly again

Have you read my posts on this topic before writing this?

No, I hadn't read the new comments yet. I am doing that now.

I asked, cause what you said seemed to echo what I said, quite literally at times.
Don't know if this is just my perception (others can comment)

[Tangrowth]

Alright, new catch up post! Starting at page 6, except for these first two quotes.

Page 6

What's good? I ate some brownies last night that still haven't completely worn off.

(How could I not start a post with this?)

Regarding the continued discussion on claiming mechanics:

Spoiler: show

Sup! I randed Town so GG.

I'll read what you guys have posted so far, but insofar as tempo control to immediately move out of the RVS stage, I'm going to bring up a polarizing strategy related question:

I've JUST finished a C12 match on MU where many vanillagers were fake claiming TPRs, and fake counter claiming TPRs all over the place. Some of them worked, some of them didn't. Those that didn't work were because of a cognitive dissonance between players. With this in mind, if you are town reading a player, and they fake claim a power role, would you counter claim them?

Furthermore, with respect to claims, I'm planning on following this format every day:
If I'm X role, I did this N1, N2, N3, etc.
If I'm Y role, I did this N1, N2, N3, etc.
If I'm Z role, I did this N1, N2, N3, etc.

Nope, I wouldn't cc but I get why some would for WIFOM. I have mixed feeling on WIFOMing results like this. Part of me wonders why it is necessary and part of me understands it's a protown thing to do. I really don't want to discuss this topic any further as it seems somewhat helpful to scum as well.

I agree with this sentiment expressed by Silverwolf.

Spoiler: show

Just caught up.

Quick thoughts:
Between the whole Frog, Marco, Sloonei deal I'm most suspicious of Sloonei. His posts reads calculated, and more about showing as town than being town (?). In all the meta game discussion I agree with him, and I can see his playstyle as quite similar to mine (believe it or not :3), and he kind of looks like me when I'm scum. Early iffy read.

Marco looked a bit weird at first with the reluctance to vote others, and I always frown at unvotes. But his explanations makes sense, and him misunderstanding and thus rejecting Frog's claiming plan because town wouldn't know what to claim looks town (unless it's very cleverly planned).

Frog looks townish just due to the fact that he is completely seeing his own angle. However, I think his "logic" as he refers to it is only one side of the issues his bringing up. His Marco "slip" is not a slip. There also are risks to the claiming plan he suggests. He also ignored Marco's first explanation that Marco was merely correcting sig's interpretation of whatever post that was. (Which btw, I agree with, cause I remember having the same kind of thoughts about it). I don't know if scum would play this way, cause it reads genuine, even if I disagree with a lot of things.

I thought sig looked good at a point but I don't remember why.

Zexy is a bit iffy? But may be playstyle.

Golden game saying things I definitely follow.

The guy with the red/pink avatar gives iffy vibes too.

I do vibe reads a lot. Deal with it.

Oh, and I remember PSI, who is the only one I've played a few games with, I agree with him calling the claiming plan potentially messy, so town point for that, kind of.

---

Regarding claiming actions:
There is a risk to this, and that is that it will be easier for mafia to read into posts and find PTs in two ways: 1. How different people act around claiming. And 2. They will be able to cross someone off the list as "not that PT" - and remember mafia do know what PT they are looking for. So for example if they are looking for a Tracker, and player A claims "Tracked player C and got no result", but players C is scum and did target someone, then mafia knows player A is not a Tracker. There's different versions of this.

Apart from that hypo-claiming would be messy and confusing imo, and I'd rather not deal with it.

I'm of the (maybe controvertial?) opinion that PT is not the be all end all of town, but rather town together needs to find and kill scum. That is the mission and is being done by voting in thread primarily. Yes, it's nice having working PTs, but I think it's a valid and good enough strategy to have PT claim information when they have something useful to say like a Tracker result that leads to a dead body i.e. We don't really need to know who the Tracker saw sleeping like an angel in their bed imo.

I'll go with whatever the majority wants, but I'd really like to just drop the whole PT discussion and scum hunt as normal.

Feeling slightly town about this post, Dizzy. Digging it. Your reads are easy to comprehend yet they appear genuine. Can you elaborate on your reads of sig and Zexy?

Spoiler: show

I don't have an overview over who knows who, who's from here and how familiar this type of setup is to people, and I'd really like to have that.

So I'll just state that:
- I've played a couple of games with PSI.
- I'm not from here (but I really like the site *buddies everyone)
- I consider this setup pretty standard.

And if other would like to share that would be appreciated.

Dizzy, what do you think of PSI this game?

Spoiler: show

Well, Golden, looks like it wasn’t LC’s opening that was strange. His entire playstyle just feels a bit quirky to me, but if that’s his meta it’s null.

~1500 posts d1 is too much, I think. Last year’s finals didn’t hit 2000 posts total, and although it had 13 players instead of 17, 1500 posts in Day 1 is an overstatement.

Sometimes very early reads are the most accurate. Frequently people make their biggest mistakes before they find their footing in the game. If sloonei really believed in his read, why would it be expected for him to 'not only rely on that'?

Maybe but they may not be based on early posts alone.
Well that's what I questioned early on, did he believe, or was he scum trying to set up a read he could use later?
It's cleared up by this point.

Lol, nothing is scummy- I'm suggesting optimal strategy and pointing out things to keep eyes on. Literally none of my points have been refuted on a logical basis- all of my perspectives, warrants and basis for claims remain intact. Instead we see Sloonei and Marco discrediting my content based on fallacious logic, often times side stepping my points entirely.

It's quite sad to see your scum game Zexy

Ultimately you're shoving a false narrative that straddles every side. I don't like it.

Scum like to seem useful by suggesting optimal strategy, though. I agree that your points are all logical, just saying that the early stuff could've been said by scum as well. The later make you look better.

It's quite sad to see you think this is my scum game
You also called me town earlier.

Do we have any ideas on Marco meta? Latest posts look townier than before, even Frog acknowledged it.

I didn't like the way Zexy minimised sloonei's sig read, and put in an early perspective that, essentially, no rational player should be reading sig off so little and if sloonei continues with the read he must be a scum looking for a bandwagon.

If you are going about making sure an early wagon doesn't build on your teammate, it's a subtle and clever way of doing it.

I'm better than that, if I was sig's buddy I wouldn't come to his defense that early for such minimal reasoning. It's unnecessary attention.
As for "reading sig off" please remember that I don't know sig as well as you all do.

It's not really subtle and clever, such early defense on a scumbuddy when chances are that wagon won't stay till the end is just unnecesarry, if not an outright bad move.

Silverwolf preferred to focus on people like ika and MP instead of the bunch that was discussed the most, and that’s slightly scummy I think. She just doesn’t seem to like Frog going on with his very solvy cases and Sloonei/Marco throwing their fair share of townie posts in thread… later on she questions Sloonei about sig, though. Still, there’s that vibe she’s trying to avoid the main discussion.

This is useful information. Does it usually take the form of the rather inconclusive maybe this, but maybe this? Zexy can clarify this too if he wants. Thing is he is commenting on a lot, but no stances. Not sure it's a problem, cause I definitely can relate to a point (probably doing it right now), but it is a thing I noticed.

Indeed that’s the case, I’m not one who easily reads people this early. I also get townreads more easily than scumreads, so I’m working with process of elimination. I’ve noticed that when I voice my early reads too much, I tend to flip them later and look scummy for that.

This is peculiar! I kind of love it, cause I'm confused now. Why do you think I'd tunnel you or tunnel at all? I'm merely joking around/taking RVS seriously.

At the time you haven’t talked about anybody else. This is not even close to what’s really going on now that you are wallposting, though, so that point’s obsolete. I like how you finally comment a lot as well.

Zexy, bet you're going to get tired of my questions, aren't you? Here are some more:
1) How do Marco's posts seem townier now compared to earlier?
2) Why is Silverwolf providing commentary on players who aren't being discussed the most slightly scummy? What's the motivation for a mafia player to do this?
3) You say here you like to work via process of elimination because you get more town reads than mafia reads. Would you mind providing a rainbow list when you get a chance? (assuming you haven't already once I catch up fully)

Lastly, you say that you are found scummy because you tend to flip your POV on players, but I think that's not your problem and more so those who are suspecting you. Mafia tend to be more consistent because they have to fabricate their reads; civilians are free to change their mind at any time. I'd suggest that you not be afraid to put your early reads out there, but if you don't feel confident in them, just express your level of confidence (or lack thereof).

Spoiler: show

I only know Soneji as we both come from the same board and have played dozens of games together. I think we both read each other pretty well, as we've also been on the same scum team 4-5 times (won each game too), but we're not infallible.

I don't consider the exact setup standard (semi-open nature with 1 out of possible 12 setups), but I've played some of the possible setups and am more than familiar with each role.

Thanks. Did you already state your read of Soneji (if you have one)? I don't recall.

Oooops, I thought Sloonei and Soneji was the same player, just different versions of the username. I see now that they are two seperate people. I did not mean to make them conjioned twins.

SLOONEJI STRIKES AGAIN!

Spoiler: show

I feel like Silverwolf's posts have a very "drifter" quality to them. Just moving along, picking random posts and responding to them. There seems to be no desire to interact beyond the occasional observation or to engage anyone. The participation seems superficial. What do others think?

VOTE SILVERWOLF

This is a good observation, Marco, but having seen Silverwolf in Turf Wars, I'd hesitate to read her as mafia for this. She seemed willing to engage folks in participation there as well, despite picking out random posts that pinged her for whatever reason. I'll see how she posts once I'm fully caught up and provide more thoughts at that time.

[Dyslexicon]

Using the hammer by this means will help us gain valuable information based on flip. If I cannot be judged based on my little contribution, at least by this plan I can assist town in some way.

The only negative I see is the potential of hitting a low key civ power role.

No I'm horribly behind. I've been looking for my name during my skim though. Still have a bad gut feel on Sloon. I'm having trouble reading Sig. I have a bad gut feel on Golden.

What valuable information would be gathered by lynching a lurker?
What information do you see coming out of lynching you based on you having low content?

What is your reason for mentioning you have trouble reading Sig, is there a point to this?

[Silverwolf]

Ok, Caught up. I'm fine with MP's explanation for his hammer caution. This is a concept not used here on the Syndicate as the Syndicate does plurality lynch. That's probably why they don't wagon as much early game.

Dyslexicon looks pretty townie overall: Relaxed and trying to game solve and I agree with the reads as well

Frog: Although I don't agree with all of it, I think he's town for trying to figure out the game in a protown way, he has the proper amount of paranoia also

Golden: See my earlier rant

ika: You have to talk about others besides me, null

Zexy: Still town but will do a separate ISO as promised

MP: null, I think it's gonna take me a bit to adjust to his playstyle, this is our first game together

sloonei: very slight town, does a good job of explaining himself and I agree with the though process, still could easily do this as scum

sig: I'm gonna re-read and comment separately as he has a lot of posts and I am not able to form much of a read off them so far surprisingly

Zebra: Null, I can never read properly here, don't agree with going after lurkers as a policy lynch

Dr wilgy, Metalmarsh-null, it is not unusual for them to start slow in games

soneji-no posts

Psittachiform, IAWY-need to ISO cuz I don't remember much about them on read through but I wanted to get some initial reads out there

[Silverwolf]

Spoiler: show

I just woke up and am still a little cranky but I have to rant for a bit cuz it's bugging me and will make me feel better:

In Turf Wars, I went after low content lurkers and turned out to be right that some of them were scum. I was basically discredited by townies in that game as being tinfoil because those posters had low content and they kept going after each other and the wrong people. Even after I was killed, they ignored me.

My MP vote was to get a reaction out of him. I DO NOT appreciate Golden's insinuations that I was going after him for RL which I would never do. Golden kept twisting it to that and it pissed me off. There was nothing wrong with my vote and I have no idea of MP's alignment-I'm gonna go read all his posts a little later-but I DO NOT appreciate Golden interfering with my vote and interaction with MP and defending MP the way he did. If MP is town and Golden is town, it's fine but there is no way for Golden to know that unless he's scum.

I think he's scum who knows MP's alignment. It's the only way for him to be that defensive of him because it's way too early with too little content to get a read on MP so he's not defending a townread as town.

He's a damn good player. As scum, it is easy to get into an argument and be all logical and level headed and look like town. Who's to say he didn't do that? That said, I'm gonna read all the reactions to is and see what others thing. I incorrectly tunneled Golden in Turf Wars when he was town and even though I realized that and backed off then, I don't want to make the same mistake here. Also, us tunneling back and forth will get us nowhere. I need to get some reads on and ISO others today.

ika defending me is null, he defends me all the time but I need to see more than just defending me here from him when he can post properly again

Have you read my posts on this topic before writing this?

No, I hadn't read the new comments yet. I am doing that now.

I asked, cause what you said seemed to echo what I said, quite literally at times.
Don't know if this is just my perception (others can comment)

Yes, I was responding to Marco's post (as you can see by the butchered quote) which was the last post in the game before my rant. I do agree though that VCA would be a mess if we all coordinated our votes and scum would have a very easy time blending in with that plan. I don't mind Frog brought it up. He's trying to be proactive.

[Dyslexicon]

Feeling slightly town about this post, Dizzy. Digging it. Your reads are easy to comprehend yet they appear genuine. Can you elaborate on your reads of sig and Zexy?

Think I had town point on sig at first just due to mention he liked living (seemed like a town mindset). But I've grown suspicious of him, cause I don't feel he adds a lot. Not much else to say, but I should probably ISO him at a point.

Zexy, I don't know. On the townier side of null to me. Just due to the fact that I'm able to look at his whole play and see it as a comprehensive town play I guess. I don't have much specifics here either.

Dizzy, what do you think of PSI this game?

I commented on this in the post you quoted above this one. Most of all I want him to post more now.

[Tangrowth]

More catching up stuff:

Page 7

Spoiler: show

I didn't. Because he hasn't posted anything yet. That's characteristic of him. He enjoys the monotony of reading gazillion posts at once, picking out what interest him, and then make a post quoting a couple of people with his reads based on those posts.

Yeah, sorry, I thought you were talking about Sloonei. I will be looking forward to the Soneji catch up then.

Do you mean this?

Seems like an attempt to get through loopholes. I wouldn't allow it as a host.

You'd rather have the mafia NK pr before they have the chance to share useful information?Well that's a town mindset if I ever saw one!
+ It's totally fair play, but probably messy in this setup (which I'll get back to why I think)

I didn't quite understand what you're referring to when you say mindslip. And on that note, could you list the various color tags, like orange for sarcasm, I presume.

I mean having the mindset of a scum, so thinking like one. The post Long con replied to put Hypo claiming in a positive light (afair), something that helps town. He responded with that it seemed like trying to get through loopholes and he'd disallow it (presumably because it would be unfair to the mafia that town would get that advantage). So that is a scummy mindset, or taking scum's side if you will. Does that make sense?

These things can be stretch, maybe. But it is something I noticed. And nothing else Long con has said has made me think town on him.

Honestly, to me, it looked like he just didn't understand the concept. I can't quite see why he'd consider it an attempt to get through loopholes.

I agree with this evaluation of Long Con's behavior put forth by Marco. As I explained in my meta read of LC last night, his experience is almost entirely with open setup role madness games. I don't find him suspicious or town for any of those comments.

Spoiler: show

I can definitely see how Zexy is coming across as scummy. I don't mind switching my vote over to him either. @Golden, what are your thoughts on SilverWolf?

Don't see anything out of the ordinary from what I know of her yet. But I know very little of her.

In Turf Wars, she was the voice that kept saying we should be focussing on some other people to the people who were the main topic of conversation. She was ultimately right, and also town. It doesn't bother me if she focusses on places that are different to where others are for this reason.

I agree with this perspective of Golden regarding Silverwolf, having hosted that game.

Spoiler: show

Lol, IAWY - but I have no other gauge on you other than top posting!!!

:-O

Haha, it's all gravy, take it chill. I'll lead.

I'm never voting you D1 anyway so I guess that should extend offsite as well.

[Side note - of my four votes D1, I voted and pressured 3/4 of scum D1 in Princess. :-D]

Frog, why won't you vote for IAWY on D1?

Spoiler: show

I feel like Silverwolf's posts have a very "drifter" quality to them. Just moving along, picking random posts and responding to them. There seems to be no desire to interact beyond the occasional observation or to engage anyone. The participation seems superficial. What do others think?

VOTE SILVERWOLF

Considering I'm catching up and responding to what I feel I need to, this is a fair assumption but it's wrong. I'm catching up. Unfortunately, RL has made it hard for me to stay focused on this game.

I will say, I think Marco v Frog is TvT. Sloonei vs Sig-I like Sloonei better and I will look into this more and elaborate soon. MP needs to post more content and not keep making excuses for not doing so. Dyslexicon looks town also. Goldem-can you go into detail on Zexy as scum? I liked some of the content there so what am I missing?

MOVING PICTURES

You need to post more.

Also, I'm around if anyone has any questions or wants to talk for about an hour or so.

Silverwolf, why did you pressure vote me instead of a different player with low posts at the time (such as Soneji, Metalmarsh, etc.)?

To clarify, I'm not making excuses, merely providing context for why I'm not here more often. I can understand why you'd see it as an excuse, but trust me, I post as much as I humanly can regardless of alignment. I'm not a lurker unless I just legitimately don't have time to play. My free time almost exclusively goes to mafia.

I provided specific details as to why I wouldn't be around and for what periods I wouldn't be around yesterday, so if you still find me suspicious after I catch up, I'd like further clarification.

Spoiler: show

My logic was:
Why is Marco shielding Sloonei? Weird.
Why is Sloonei later shielding Marco? Also weird.
Why are neither of them V reading each other? Weird.

After pressuring Marco a while it felt TvT to me so I dropped it.

Is there a world where they both could be town to you?

I have found preflip associatives this early in the game to almost always be false. One game I was tunneled as town by another townie who swore I was scummates with two other people because of our interactions. He was wrong on me and them. I'm not so sure scum would be this obvious right out of the gate either when there is no need for it as neither one is really under pressure of lynch.

Regarding my thoughts on this topic, I agree with Silverwolf that preflip associations are dangerous. I've made the mistake of tunneling based on such associations myself as town in many past games, and I try to avoid that now, because I was never once right.

Spoiler: show

I misliked his push on me

I love sig's neologisms.

I should create my own language, first thing we'd do would be to get ride of C You can use K or S instead.

So, sig: what is TS? What do you think of Sloonei’s push on you? You defended, but what does that mean in regards to his alignment?

I disagree on the fake claiming part because in MU there actually a power role cover system where everybody claims all the roles so that the real ones get to “naturally” throw their real results in without standing out too much. And others fakeclaim to draw NKs.

Zexy is towny as flip.

Zexy + Sig = Town

Marco + Sloonei = scum teamish - On page 2 Marco randomly defends Sloonei. Lol. Obv slip is obvious.

At this point my gut read is to see it opposite. Zexy + sig scum, marco + sloonei town.

I didn't like the way Zexy minimised sloonei's sig read, and put in an early perspective that, essentially, no rational player should be reading sig off so little and if sloonei continues with the read he must be a scum looking for a bandwagon.

If you are going about making sure an early wagon doesn't build on your teammate, it's a subtle and clever way of doing it.

Why?

So I've got to many light civ reads and null reads, nothing really that pingy. Golden is looking okay, minus him gut reading me as mafia and voting for me. :P
Marco is a little weird he seems to be focusing on the claiming thing a bit to much, espacilly since he went after Frog earlier for doing the same thing.
I don't think Zexy is mafia.

sig, a couple of questions:
1) Why don't you think Zexy is mafia?
2) You say Marco is a little weird and for a specific reason; do you suspect him for this or not?
3) If you have too many light civ and null reads, can you provide them in detail? You only provided "Golden is looking okay".

Spoiler: show

I don't like this vote at all.

MP has been up front about his schedule and exactly when he will be trying to post. There are people who haven't posted at all. Feels like you are picking on the person who has self-admitted they will be quiet. And anyway, why exactly does he, specifically, need to post more?

As far as the detail of Zexy as scum - I don't know what you're missing? I've posted the reason I am pinged by him. There isn't anything more to it because it's a relatively small ping, what would you like me to explain more? What was the 'some content' that you liked? Was there part of it you didn't like?

Hey golden, remember heist and turf? Silver was spot on. Not only that but the people were lurkers.

Knowing someon Scedule does not excuse them from not posting. For me existing everything is scum tell 101.

Perot: and silver ninjas me

ika, I wasn't asking anyone to excuse me from posting. I provided times I wouldn't be posting, with the assumption and inherent promise that I would deliver thereafter.

Further, just because Silverwolf was accurate in one game doesn't mean she is accurate in this game, or vice versa. That's a dangerous fallacy.

Spoiler: show

Since I'm playing to my standard MMMeta, might as well continue the RVS! D1 is the time to hear from everyone, so since Soneji is the only who left who hasn't checked in yet, my vote goes with him for the moment. Heyo Soneji! How are you doing? TELL US THE NAMES OF YUR SCUMMEHS!!!

*cough* Ahem, who would you, er, "conveniently" place as your list of baddies? Yeah, that's a good question. I'll show him!]/s]

I'm pinged here by inawordyes's declaration that he is playing to his own meta. Dom caught me in Arkham Mafia for saying this same thing. It indicates the mindset of someone who is purposefully making posts with the intention of playing to an existing standard, which can be defended against with the mere declaration that it's "my meta".

Spoiler: show

Golden stop voting silver, it's only going to irritate her, you saw turf.

ika, stop defending Silverwolf every time someone eyeballs her. It's a part of the game, and you of all people should understand that everyone is fair game for being suspected. Sometimes I and others will want Silverwolf to respond to accusations herself, instead of you coming in and responding for her, because then we can never get a read on any responses from her that are directed to her. It impedes our ability to solve the game. It's only going to irritate everyone else.

I'm all for defending someone else you think is town in game for specific reasons, but you do this regardless of Silverwolf's status in game, and literally every time she comes under suspicion, so it's clearly not flexibly strategic, rather something you do instinctively.

[Dyslexicon]

Yes, I was responding to Marco's post (as you can see by the butchered quote) which was the last post in the game before my rant. I do agree though that VCA would be a mess if we all coordinated our votes and scum would have a very easy time blending in with that plan. I don't mind Frog brought it up. He's trying to be proactive.

Not what I was getting at at all. I wondered if you borrowed reasoning from me w.r.t your read on Golden. I've underlined the parts I found to be the same in my post on it and your's:

Between the whole Silver/Golden discussion my thoughts are roughly this: First of all I didn't really see anything wrong with the MP vote. Second, none of Golden's questions were unreasonable or misrepping or whatever else Silver called it, it was just normal questioning. Reacting in this way seems to be normal for Silver though as I read it. All in all Silver reads townish to me, even if I don't agree with how she takes Golden's questioning. She seems to be putting herself in a position of being above questioning. Which she is not. Still reads more town to me. Golden however is if he is scum given a golden opportunity (see what I did there? :3) to defend himself in a way that makes logical sense all the way and he could objectively defend his position.
However my question is: Golden, do you still suspect Silver?
I also note that Golden is slightly apologetic in this interaction for "ticking Silver off" (which I don't think he needs to be cause he did nothing wrong). He may just be a polite young gentleman, but it reads a bit guilty mindset.
Like, I find it really hard to trust Golden, and I don't know whether I'm paranoid or not.

I don't know if this thought process will make sense to anyone.

My MP vote was to get a reaction out of him. I DO NOT appreciate Golden's insinuations that I was going after him for RL which I would never do. Golden kept twisting it to that and it pissed me off. There was nothing wrong with my vote and I have no idea of MP's alignment-I'm gonna go read all his posts a little later-but I DO NOT appreciate Golden interfering with my vote and interaction with MP and defending MP the way he did. If MP is town and Golden is town, it's fine but there is no way for Golden to know that unless he's scum.

I think he's scum who knows MP's alignment. It's the only way for him to be that defensive of him because it's way too early with too little content to get a read on MP so he's not defending a townread as town.

He's a damn good player. As scum, it is easy to get into an argument and be all logical and level headed and look like town[. Who's to say he didn't do that?/color] That said, I'm gonna read all the reactions to is and see what others thing. I incorrectly tunneled Golden in Turf Wars when he was town and even though I realized that and backed off then, I don't want to make the same mistake here. Also, us tunneling back and forth will get us nowhere. I need to get some reads on and ISO others today.

- I also wonder if Ika defends you also when you are scum? In other words, would you be able to fool him if you were scum and he town?

Ika, what does your read on Silver consist of, specifically?

[Dyslexicon]

^Color got messed up. Purple color is supposed to end after "Who's to say he didn't do that?"

[Tangrowth]

I wish ppl would stop voting sw,it's clear she is town.

This gets old.

[Tangrowth]

Tomorrow I will ISO Zexy and I'll explain my read on him. I'm also gonna ISO Sloonei v sig as I got the feeling there is something there I need to figure out. I am too tired and crazy as hell from RL to do it now though. I also have a headache.

Hey Silverwolf, have you gotten around to this yet? I'll find out soon enough, but I thought I'd throw it out there now instead of including it in a catchup post.

[Silverwolf]

Dyslexicon-I didn't borrow your reasoning but I can see where you would think that as it does look similar. Don't know what else to say. I do agree with you there on Golden but I've given several independent thoughts on him as well as directly interacting with him last night.

ika does not defend me as much when I am scum, he has caught on to me pretty quick in 2 of my scum games against him, the third I fooled him most of the game but this was before we were dating so I think the defending things is due to that plus if he truly believes I am town, he will strongly defend me no matter what. He can answer a lot more to this. He's still out of town.

I agree with MP that ika should let me answer for myself so ika, please do that, TIA.

[Marco]

Spoiler: show

Okay, now I have a total of 11 posts. I am no longer in the bottom four.

...And yet I am just as likely to be bad as I was before I started posting.

Frog can deny it all he wants, but the methods he's using to base his vote are absolutely advocating a policy lynch.

If you're fine with a policy lynch, okay, whatever, but advocating a policy lynch while denying that it's a policy lynch is highly suspicious to me. Especially when that policy lynch is based on going after the lurkers. I have seen baddies use lurker policy lynches time and time again to pick off the civilian lower posters while cruising their way to endgame by being very opinionated and very vocal, and almost every time I've seen that they have always advocated lynching lurkers while shying away from the term "policy lynch" as much as possible.

I appreciate the effort and analysis Frog, but my personal opinion on that tactic - if it is genuine - is fuck that noise.

Not to mention that I've gone after lower posters as a baddie while being extremely loud and obnoxious myself. I've totally used the myth that lower posters are more likely to be baddies than higher posters to my advantage, almost every single time I've been bad in this game. Even after people got used to that being my meta both here and on RYM, it would still work.

"Zebra can't be a baddie even though she did this suspicious thing and that suspicious thing...she's posting so much! I say we lynch one of the lurkers!"

-A few hours later-

"Ah shit, RIP So-and-so. I was so convinced, too. Well, what other lurker could we lynch tomorrow?"

The lesson is never learned.

I would like some input on a2thezebra's post and "performance". Is she generally a principled player who likes doing show-and-tell to make her points? Someone who shows their disapproval of an idea by demonstrating how it fails? Is she someone who has a history of being vehemently against policy lynching low-posters?

This is basically in reponse to a2thezebra's opposition to Frog's plan. I think the case she makes is correct, that we can't automatically assume low posters are scum. It's true. But instead of just pointing that out in a single post with a couple examples, she performs this whole song and dance of making filler posts to rack up her post count, to "demonstrate" the flaw in Frog's plan. That anyone could easily make posts for the numbers. But she's missing out the point.

Scum that lurk and don't post a lot don't just do it to not attract attention. That's counter-intuitive since they know that being on the bottom of the Activity list is bound to draw attention to them. Similarly, just posting for the heck of it (spam posts, etc) to rack up your post count is also not going to help as people are going to find you suspicious if you just fluff-post. So, it's not as simple as low-posting scum coming in and posting a bunch of garbage and they'll be fine. Barring RL reasons, scum who are on the bottom of the activity list are usually there as they don't know how to act town. Primarily because they're not actually motivated to "solve" the game an/or they're uncomfortable with acting in that manner.

To better explain my train of thought, I'll describe a scenario that I have come across myself. You see that you flipped scum, you talk a bit with your scumbuddies but don't post in game thread since you feel a bit awkward just posting on the first page or so when nothing has gone down. You come online much later to find 500+ posts already made. Now, you have to catch up on all this and post your thoughts, but as scum, you already know the motivations behind everyone's posts and it can get both, boring and awkward, to frame responses. So, you just respond to 3-4 posts, maybe make a post or two about your reads, etc, and then hop back to your QT to watch town towning each other. This is the general pattern I see in low posting scum who are at least trying to look like they're making an effort.

Anyway, getting back to my point about a2thezebra, I feel like she is misrepresenting the "low posters are scum" or "policy lynch lurkers" philosophy, whether intentionally or unintentionally. I don't disagree with her that just because someone has low activity/lurking doesn't automatically mean they're scum any more than the people who have high activity. In my experience (and I believe, most everyone else), in practice, it's actually true that each game will have a couple scum at the bottom of the activity list. It's not 100% of course, but the motivation behind pushing low posters / lurkers is understandable and one that I support.

While all 4 lowest activity posters are unlikely to be scum, it's likely that at least one or two among them are scum. This isn't a true "scientific" fact, i.e. logically speaking it can be easily refuted, and I know I've played in games where none of the scum were low posters. And I feel that a2thezebra is using this knowledge (that low posts = scum isn't necessarily true) to discredit Frog's entire stand. Because, even if none of the low posters are scum, pushing them and forcing them to post more is only a good thing for us.

Now, the question I pose is that "Is a2thezebra discrediting Frog's plan to "policy lynch" lurkers because she is completely against this school of thought (Low posters = scum) and can't see the merit of pushing these people to post more? Or is she so convinced that Frog is scum for pushing the "policy lynch" angle that she can't see the merit in going after low posters? Or is she discrediting Frog's plan in an attempt to soft-defend her fellow low posters?"

I think I was a far too wordy above, so I'll lay down my points again in a concise manner. But I suggest people to read the above for better context:

1. While Frog's plan isn't perfect (IMO as I've already pointed out in another post), I think the intent and basic motivation behind the plan is sound. i.e. we pressure the lurkers and not give anyone (even town) an opportunity to post less than they should.
2. a2thezebra is against Frog's plan to "policy lynch" lurkers, which I agree with, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't even pressure them.
3. And while a2thezebra isn't actually saying we shouldn't pressure them, the way she went about discrediting Frog's plan seems far too "passionate" and "theatrical" (I don't mean to say fake, just with a flair) to just be an observation. Looks to me like she's either very passionate against policy lynches on low posters or she's trying to soft-defend low posters by discouraging a push on them.

[Silverwolf]

Tomorrow I will ISO Zexy and I'll explain my read on him. I'm also gonna ISO Sloonei v sig as I got the feeling there is something there I need to figure out. I am too tired and crazy as hell from RL to do it now though. I also have a headache.

Hey Silverwolf, have you gotten around to this yet? I'll find out soon enough, but I thought I'd throw it out there now instead of including it in a catchup post.

Getting to it shortly here.

[Tangrowth]

Page 8:

Spoiler: show

Golden stop voting silver, it's only going to irritate her, you saw turf.

I'll vote for whoever I think is being disingenuous. I irritated silver in turf wars by saying I thought she was town. As much as It hink silverwolf is both an awesome person and a very good mafia player, I don't actually mind if I'm irritating her by trying to solve the game. Solving the game is what I'm here to do.

Slight town look here for Golden. He is infamous for being able to replicate his supatown personality as mafia, but I still think this illustrates a town mindset. Furthermore, I think mafia Golden, and mafia in general, would be less apt to post something like this, because it unnecessarily potentially antagonizes other player(s) and brings attention.

Spoiler: show

Golden, I suggest you read my fucking posts before you ask questions. One thing that will irritate me to now end is not getting time to read, post, and develop my reads. You immediately attacking me is scum motivation as it distracts me from doing that. Anyone who knows me knows that. I welcome interaction, I welcome questioning, but being attacked, voted, misrepped, for simply asking a question will set me off and piss me off to no end.

You clearly don't welcome questioning. I asked you a number and you told me off for getting defensive instead of answering them.

I did not 'immediately attack you as scum' - as I've pointed out. I'm not 'looking for a reason to vote you'.

It's really simple SW - I don't like your MP vote AT ALL, or your reasoning for it. I find it as scummy as heck. Trying to make it out like I'm being personal against you is not helpful to me, it doesn't help prove me wrong. Just engage with me on a game level. If you are emotionally frustrated at taking my vote, please talk to Dom. I want clear headed SW as much as the next person. I have a lot of respect for your town game.

But, you do not get a pass from suspicion. You cannot ask me not to suspect you because it will 'distract you'. Taking suspicion is part of the game.

I have read your 'fucking posts', so stop telling me to iso you to understand you.

GTH I read the exchange between Golden and Silverwolf as most likely town on town, but I'm considering all possibilities still. I'd like to examine the back and forth in more detail later, time permitting.

Spoiler: show

lol... oh god this again. :-P

You two (Ika + Silverwolf) got lucky you were mechanically cleared in that last hydra game. It seems like almost every game you two are in, this play style doesn't bode well. ** This is their (Ika + Silver) standard town meta. :-/

I'm calling it a night. Cheers.

It's their standard everything meta.

From what I've seen, yeah, I agree with this assessment regarding ika and Silverwolf.

I will grant that they very likely can read each other well, but I don't put that much stock in meta alone. Although I respect them both greatly, I will be not putting too much stock in their reads of each other unless those reads are substantively shown with content, rather than sole reliance on someone else's assessment of meta.

Spoiler: show

@SilverWolf, what is your read of ika?

Null, He defends me regardless of alignment. It's NAI.

Golden, I'll answer you tomorrow. I welcome questioning and discussion and interactions. I do not welcome misreps and that's what you are doing.

I am not getting into a fight with you.

No, Soneji hasn't posted anything. I call out lurkers who post but don't post content and fly under the radar, not those who don't post at all. That's more like RL related.

MP has posted but I don't like his content which I pointed out and you ignored while ASSUMING that I only voted him on RL which is a misrep that will piss me off every time.

Seems Silverwolf agrees that it's NAI, so yeah.

Also, this mostly answers my question I directed at you earlier regarding why you voted / called out me in particular, Silver, so feel free to ignore it if you wish.

Spoiler: show

Golden, I suggest you read my fucking posts before you ask questions. One thing that will irritate me to now end is not getting time to read, post, and develop my reads. You immediately attacking me is scum motivation as it distracts me from doing that. Anyone who knows me knows that. I welcome interaction, I welcome questioning, but being attacked, voted, misrepped, for simply asking a question will set me off and piss me off to no end.

You clearly don't welcome questioning. I asked you a number and you told me off for getting defensive instead of answering them.

I did not 'immediately attack you as scum' - as I've pointed out. I'm not 'looking for a reason to vote you'.

It's really simple SW - I don't like your MP vote AT ALL, or your reasoning for it. I find it as scummy as heck. Trying to make it out like I'm being personal against you is not helpful to me, it doesn't help prove me wrong. Just engage with me on a game level. If you are emotionally frustrated at taking my vote, please talk to Dom. I want clear headed SW as much as the next person. I have a lot of respect for your town game.

But, you do not get a pass from suspicion. You cannot ask me not to suspect you because it will 'distract you'. Taking suspicion is part of the game.

I have read your 'fucking posts', so stop telling me to iso you to understand you.

There is nothing scummy about me trying to get MP to participate. What I find scummy is your interference in that and your constant defensive of him. I never once said I want a pass from suspicion. Again, don't put words in my mouth. I gave a game related reason for not liking one of MP's votes and I have seen scum come into games plenty and make excuses for not posting. I'm trying to get him to post. Period.

Despite being on the same page as Golden for a significant portion of the game, I wholeheartedly agree with this underlined sentence by Silverwolf. I can understand the perspective of both of them right now, and I don't see either perspective as particularly forced.

I find it very much in character for Golden to defend me, regardless of his alignment, since it's something we both will not hesitate to do if we think the other one is town and is attracting heat early on, since we both often talk a lot and attract a lot of early suspicion, whether fairly or unfairly. A town Golden will not hesitate to defend with conviction any player he believes is town, but a scum Golden would have a similar incentive here since he would know I'm town. So the fact that he defends me is NAI, but I wanted to elaborate upon this nonetheless, in an attempt to provide meaningful context for Silverwolf and anyone else interested.

[Tangrowth]

I'm getting close!

[Silverwolf]

Geez, I forgot LC and Marco in my earlier reads list. I also think I need to stay caught up or read everything before posting from here on out.

LC is null, need to read again

Marco leans town-I agree with his thought process and I liked his questioning of myself and ika during my argument with Golden. I didn't agree with the reasoning for his vote on me but he was willing to re-evaluate it based on new info which leans town to me.

Zexy ISO-I liked his read and his analysis of Marco's vote on me, I don't agree with his Marco read but I get where he's coming from with it, his development of dyslexicn read seems natural to me, his saying I'm slightly scummy I obviously disagree with but it's not unreasonable-I have a tendency to focus more on under the radar players in games as a rule as both alignments, agree with him on sloonei vs sig, a lot of stuff trying to develop reads and game solve-looks town. Overall town lean.

Sig is next

[Dyslexicon]

Dyslexicon-I didn't borrow your reasoning but I can see where you would think that as it does look similar. Don't know what else to say. I do agree with you there on Golden but I've given several independent thoughts on him as well as directly interacting with him last night.

Alright, fair enough I guess.

ika does not defend me as much when I am scum, he has caught on to me pretty quick in 2 of my scum games against him, the third I fooled him most of the game but this was before we were dating so I think the defending things is due to that plus if he truly believes I am town, he will strongly defend me no matter what. He can answer a lot more to this. He's still out of town.

Noted.

I agree with MP that ika should let me answer for myself so ika, please do that, TIA.

Yeah, that would be helpful. No need to say "SW is town don't bother her" in every post. We know his position now lol.

[Marco]

I feel like Silverwolf's posts have a very "drifter" quality to them. Just moving along, picking random posts and responding to them. There seems to be no desire to interact beyond the occasional observation or to engage anyone. The participation seems superficial. What do others think?

VOTE SILVERWOLF

While I don’t disagree, I think this is the kind of wagon scum could easily lead on a townie and look just fine.

Do your post just tend to be one-liners? It feels like there is not much thought and a scum motivation behind them…

First, I feel you're leading me in your questions. They don't look like questions you actually want answers to. You're just saying those things under the guise of actually asking me those questions.

Anyway, no, my posts don't tend to be one-liners. I admit every post of mine isn't a bunch of thoughts requiring a lot of exposition but I think I have posted more substance-full posts (I mean quantity, the actual number of non-superficial posts, not that any post of mine has more substance or value than anyone else's) than the majority, in this game. But I do believe not every post has to be a bunch of lines. Sometimes a one-liner is more than appropriate.

I think I put a fair lot of thought behind most of my posts. Some have been on a whim but if I'm making a read, suggestion, etc, I generally think about it more than once before posting. I definitely don't think any of my posts have a scum motivation behind them. Why do you think my posts don't have thought behind them? Or that they're scum-motivated?

Particularly, in the post you quoted, what is so "thoughtless" or "scum-motivated" about it? You say it is a wagon that scum can easily lead on a townie and look fine. Why do you find my post "thoughtless" when multiple others (Golden, MovingPictures) have acknowledged that my observation is legit? And does your read change knowing that I actually rescinded my vote on Silver soon after that vote?

Do we have any ideas on Marco meta? Latest posts look townier than before, even Frog acknowledged it.

Lastly, can you tell me what started making my posts look like "thoughtless one-liners" with "scum motivation" behind them when just some time ago you thought I was looking townier, and that others acknowledged it, even the person who was convinced I was scum?

[Marco]

Marco 43 – Too many one-liners, kinda “fake” activity if you ask me. Not feeling too good about him yet.

What do people think about this? I ISO'd myself and I can sort of see some one-liners, but I can't really see how Zexy is calling my activity fake. She feels disingenuous IMO. I have had other reasons to suspect Zexy, too, but it could be that it's OMGUS-motivated, so I request others to ISO me and tell me what they think about Zexy's read on me.

[Silverwolf]

Sig ISO and thoughts:

First @Sig:

-Why is my argument with Golden TvT to you, can you elaborate on this please?

-You said you don't think zexy is mafia. Elaborate please?

-Why do you not think sloonei is mafia but are null reading him after your interaction with him?

-What was townie about In a words entrance to the thread?

I notice sig makes a lot of comments like this without much explanation so I'm gonna wait for his answers to these questions before I give a read here.

[Silverwolf]

Marco 43 – Too many one-liners, kinda “fake” activity if you ask me. Not feeling too good about him yet.

What do people think about this? I ISO'd myself and I can sort of see some one-liners, but I can't really see how Zexy is calling my activity fake. She feels disingenuous IMO. I have had other reasons to suspect Zexy, too, but it could be that it's OMGUS-motivated, so I request others to ISO me and tell me what they think about Zexy's read on me.

I'll add this to my list of things to look at. Your posts do not look like one liners to me at this point.

[a2thezebra]

Zebra: Null, I can never read properly here, don't agree with going after lurkers as a policy lynch

You do realize...

[Silverwolf]

Zebra: Null, I can never read properly here, don't agree with going after lurkers as a policy lynch

You do realize...

Holy crap, good point.

Change my as to an is there.

I don't agree going after lurkers IS a policy lynch, LOL.

[Tangrowth]

Page 9:

Spoiler: show

What I didn't like about your posts is that they seemed like an easy opportunistic set of early observations when there wasn't a whole lot of content to analyze. It's a good and easy way to establish yourself early on as a town leader.

I don't think you are the kind of person who would base a read only on that anyway when so much more is going to happen.
I'd like to believe same goes for sig.

Sometimes very early reads are the most accurate. Frequently people make their biggest mistakes before they find their footing in the game. If sloonei really believed in his read, why would it be expected for him to 'not only rely on that'?

Nah, i'm reading sig as town. That whole thing with him was just poo-flinging. He responded to well to me.

Sloonei, can you elaborate more upon why you are reading sig as town, as well as how your previous "whole thing" with him was just poo-flinging, if possible?

Spoiler: show

Froggy, on the other hand... It started out as more poo-flinging at an easy target (and I mean that as a compliment. Good or bad, I like Frog's playstyle) but I do not think he has responded as well. I've yet to read everything that happened while I was at work, and probably won't get through it all tonight, but a lot of the things he has said are not sitting right with me. I got a hunch I caught a baddie.

Sloonei, can you elaborate on these thoughts re: Froggy as well? In which specific post(s) has he not responded well and why?

Spoiler: show

For now

Vote: Metalmarshmellow89

This vote is weak.

I agree with Sloonei about Frog's vote. For someone that had such aggressive back and forths and opinions on players (notably Marco and Sloonei), with no real explanation as to mafia reads on them dissipating, I find this vote on MM weak as well.

Spoiler: show

For now

Vote: Metalmarshmellow89

This vote is weak.

Why is it weak? What vote is strong in your opinion and why?

I would think any non voter is weak IMO. Where there exists no pressure on slankers, we're screwing up.

I believe you to be villager (either derp or lynch baiting me, w/e)

USERNAME POSTS
Golden 53
Marco 43
Sloonei 41
Frog 34
Dyslexicon 27
Silverwolf 25
sig 20
Zexy 20
JaggedJimmyJay 14
MovingPictures07 13
ika 11
Long Con 11
Inawordyes 10
DrWilgy 4
Metalmarsh89 4
a2thezebra 3
Psittaciform 2

Straight up, this is how I see today.

I'm pretty much only going to be voting for Dr Wigly, Metalmarsh, a2thezebra, or Psittaciform

[I was trying to lynch bait Zexy earlier, pretty sure Zexy randed Town, just wanted to see who would hop on that opening.]

My vote on Metalmarsh has to do with a complete non-game solvey style.

In case you actually need references to his quotes, tell me how right I am and then vote with me.
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/search ... 8&sr=posts

Frog, a few questions please and thank you:
1) Why do you not think your vote on MM is weak when you clearly have expressed strong suspicion of other players?
2) Why should we believe you were lynch baiting Zexy earlier, i.e., can you show us the posts where you were lynch baiting?
3) Why Metalmarsh and not other players with a complete "non-game solvey style"?
4) Is that rainbow list of players with their post counts supposed to represent how you feel about each player in the game with respect to town versus mafia? Because... if so, that not only contradicts your earlier suspicions and essentially all of your non-strategy-related game content, but is absurd.

Spoiler: show

Quick Plan:

These players
Golden 53
Marco 43
Sloonei 41
Frog 34
Dyslexicon 27
Silverwolf 25
sig 20
Zexy 20

Will Split up into groups of 2 and vote these players, putting each of them at 2 votes:
DrWilgy 4
Metalmarsh89 4
a2thezebra 3
Psittaciform 2

These guys will have to make a cases for each of the slankers, and finish up the votes:
MovingPictures07 13
ika 11
Long Con 11
Inawordyes 10

If this splits evenly, all 4 slankers should be put at 3 votes each.

For reference, with a hammer, the vote required to hammer is currently 9 votes.
Since there are 4 wolves, it would require 5 town to pile onto the incorrect pick, and all 4 wolves to snipe the incorrect pick, thereby explicitly revealing their team. What I'm saying is, if we choose these 4 players as wagons now, we are certainly safe within the realms of variation putting each of the 4 lurkers to 3+/- 2 votes (1-5 votes on each).

I think this is an optimal strategy since, as I've pointed, I believe wolves are least likely to be engaged in the game because it is not in their wincon, and wolves are lazy AF in games unfortunately. I believe at least one wolf must exist in that group of 4, although I believe more exist in that group of 4 personally. If we force wolves to vote amongst wolves and nonwolves, we put them in a situation that makes them mechanically vulnerable! This is optimal IMO.

I hope you all join me in my plan to make wagons on these 4 players and collect everyone's reads on these 4 players.

Voting plans like this, Frog, will not go over well at this site, since generally players do not like being told what to do with their votes. I do not support this plan. Players should vote however they feel appropriate. It's different if, in real time, certain players who are town reading each other want to coordinate (such as the coordinated CFD on Fuzz in Turf Wars on Day 2), but a strict voting plan like this is nonsensical and inflexible.

Furthermore, you haven't even given players 24 hours to post and contribute in this game, which I find completely unreasonable for a 60-hour day period.

I'm increasingly finding your "content" in this game disingenuous. It looks like you really just want to seem like you're solving the game, in my view. Please convince me otherwise.

Okay, now I have a total of 11 posts. I am no longer in the bottom four.

...And yet I am just as likely to be bad as I was before I started posting.

Frog can deny it all he wants, but the methods he's using to base his vote are absolutely advocating a policy lynch.

Spoiler: show

Not to mention that I've gone after lower posters as a baddie while being extremely loud and obnoxious myself. I've totally used the myth that lower posters are more likely to be baddies than higher posters to my advantage, almost every single time I've been bad in this game. Even after people got used to that being my meta both here and on RYM, it would still work.

"Zebra can't be a baddie even though she did this suspicious thing and that suspicious thing...she's posting so much! I say we lynch one of the lurkers!"

-A few hours later-

"Ah shit, RIP So-and-so. I was so convinced, too. Well, what other lurker could we lynch tomorrow?"

The lesson is never learned.

Slight town read for zebra.

Golden, I'm a bit surprised you're in favor of the idea. Can you elaborate?

Spoiler: show

To reply to MP’s question of my meta; I use it a lot in my reads, problem is, here and in the Championship, I won’t be able to use it as much as I’d like. From what little meta I can use I think Frog’s likely town and Psittaciform may not be, I want to see more.
I believe mafia tends to be more defensive because townies don’t know alignments and should be more uncertain, so they wouldn’t just defend when not sure themselves. Mafia can also defend fellow mafia to save them or defend fellow town to buddy them.
Other than a reaction, I wanted an actual explanation as well when I asked Sloonei.

A bit more I need to post in a bit.

Zexy, thanks for addressing this. I don't agree with your assessment on mafia being more defensive; it may be true in certain circumstances, but I think it depends on the player, the game circumstances, etc. way too much for any generalized statement to be remotely accurate.

Another question though:

If here and in the Championship, you won't be able to use meta as much as you'd like, why have you requested for it as much as you have?

And with that, I'm at where I posted when I first entered the thread this morning! Booyah! Now I'll just properly read everything posted since then, and I'll be technically caught up.

[a2thezebra]

Looks to me like she's either very passionate against policy lynches on low posters or she's trying to soft-defend low posters by discouraging a push on them.

It's both. I take no shame in soft(?) defending the lower posters, if for no other reason that I feel like they get taken advantage of by manipulative baddies almost every game. I'm not ruling out the possibility that any of them are bad, but I am ruling out the possibility that they are bad simply for not posting a lot of content.

[Tangrowth]

I don't have an overview over who knows who, who's from here and how familiar this type of setup is to people, and I'd really like to have that.

So I'll just state that:
- I've played a couple of games with PSI.
- I'm not from here (but I really like the site *buddies everyone)
- I consider this setup pretty standard.

And if other would like to share that would be appreciated.

I like this.

- I'm a fairly regular member of the Syndicate community and have played with most of the players in this game, but this is not my "home" site.
- Players I've not played with before are: Dyslexicon, Frog, Inawordyes, Marco, Psittacitform, Zexy.
- Played exactly 1 game with each of Ika, Soneji, Silverwolf
- I've never played a semi-open setup before, and I've not heavily played in games with role claiming in years, and even when I did I was never big on doing it.
- I'll be playing in the Champs tournament next month, can't wait to see you other dudes there, whoever you are.

I'll do this myself as well.
- I have played extensively with most of the players in this game, and it is my home site.
- Players I've not played with before are: Dyslexicon, Frog, ika, Inawordyes, Marco, Psittacitform, Silverwolf, and Zexy.
- Played exactly 1 game with Soneji, but it was on NF and I sucked.
- I've never played a semi-open setup before in my over 5 years of playing, and I've not heavily played in games with role claiming until the past year. I've played maybe a handful of such games.
- I'm the alternate for the Champs tournament on TS, so I'll get to watch Golden kick some ass.

[a2thezebra]

And to answer your concern Marco, I'm not entirely sold on a baddie read of Frog yet, because this approach could just be his style and therefore I could be suspecting him for something irrelevant to his alignment. I do however think that in general going after lurkers is a common baddie tactic, and I also think that the way he's gone about it by denying that it's a policy lynch is very alarming.

[Tangrowth]

EBWOP: I guess since I've never played with 8 players, having played with "most" is not true. Lol. Just substitute "most" with everyone not listed below.

[a2thezebra]

Now that I've CTRL-F'd my name and responded to (I think) everything, I'm going back to sleep.

[Dyslexicon]

I find it very much in character for Golden to defend me, regardless of his alignment, since it's something we both will not hesitate to do if we think the other one is town and is attracting heat early on, since we both often talk a lot and attract a lot of early suspicion, whether fairly or unfairly. A town Golden will not hesitate to defend with conviction any player he believes is town, but a scum Golden would have a similar incentive here since he would know I'm town. So the fact that he defends me is NAI, but I wanted to elaborate upon this nonetheless, in an attempt to provide meaningful context for Silverwolf and anyone else interested.

Do you think Golden had any reason to read you town at that time?

[a2thezebra]

Oh and one last thing, I'd just like to make a comment about how all the newcomers are doing an outstanding job with the game so far, regardless of alignment. You all should fit in nicely here.

[Dyslexicon]

Randomly calling out the scum team: Wildy, sig, Golden and Zebra.

Yay me.

[Marco]

Spoiler: show

I'm thoroughly over Ika defending Silver at any given chance. Can someone just clarify what their relationship normally is in games? It's bizarre as hell.

Ika should contribute something else.

Between the whole Silver/Golden discussion my thoughts are roughly this: First of all I didn't really see anything wrong with the MP vote. Second, none of Golden's questions were unreasonable or misrepping or whatever else Silver called it, it was just normal questioning. Reacting in this way seems to be normal for Silver though as I read it. All in all Silver reads townish to me, even if I don't agree with how she takes Golden's questioning. She seems to be putting herself in a position of being above questioning. Which she is not. Still reads more town to me. Golden however is if he is scum given a golden opportunity (see what I did there? :3) to defend himself in a way that makes logical sense all the way and he could objectively defend his position.
However my question is: Golden, do you still suspect Silver?
I also note that Golden is slightly apologetic in this interaction for "ticking Silver off" (which I don't think he needs to be cause he did nothing wrong). He may just be a polite young gentleman, but it reads a bit guilty mindset.
Like, I find it really hard to trust Golden, and I don't know whether I'm paranoid or not.

I don't know if this thought process will make sense to anyone.

I really like this post and Dyslexicon is starting to be one of my strongest town reads this game.

What is a TMI post?

Too much information. Like "But mafia could just block them with their roleblocker!"
The example Frog gave doesn't necessarily read TMI to me. I think I tend to talk to people like they are town in most instances naturally. Cause I'm just that much of a trusting, warm and kind individual.

I want to clarify what I meant in that post since I seem to have caused some misunderstanding.

Spoiler: show

This is the post he was referring to when he said I had "too much information".

@Frog, you came in encouraging a strategy involving hypo-claiming. How did you think about going about it accurately if you don't know what setup we're playing?

What I'm saying here is that, "If Frog is town, he doesn't know what setup we're playing. Then why is he advising a hypo-claim strategy?" This is because I thought Frog was asking us to hypo-claim just one role each.

Here's what I said right before the above quoted post:

Assuming I'm Vanilla Townie, I have no way to know which setup we're playing until we see some PR (town and/or mafia) deaths. I could see the potential for PR cover after we have better idea of what setup we're in but mafia is going to probably have that knowledge alone for a while and hypo-claiming requires the contribution of quite a number of well-informed townies.

Link: http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 48#p263448

Here's more clarification I provided on this "TMI" point.

My friend Marco, if you want to be taken seriously, at least make an argument. You've read my analysis from various perspectives that involve claims, warrants, and basis. Your response is: I disagree because reasons. But you don't list reasons. LOL. You haven't even engaged which parts you disagree with with respect to my analysis. It really just seems like you're randomly defending Marco, but cautiously backing off in case you get linked. I think you know I'm onto something, I've just posted TWO of Marcos slips.

1) TMI - he KNOWS that I don't have knowledge of the entire setup - aka, he's presuming me a Town, and yet he's voting me, lol.
2) Defending you after you make THESE trolls posts that I've ALREADY brought to your attention, and told you to please refrain from self-lynch baiting. I even explain WHY self-lynch baiting is horrible for Town. If you choose not to interact with me in actual content based discussion I can only concluded the worst for you.

1. That was my point. I was calling out that if you're town, you don't know which setup we're playing. Then how could you be suggesting a hypo-claim strategy. As I admitted, I hadn't understood your strategy clearly. I didn't get that you meant we claim all the possible roles. It appeared to me that you knew the setup we're in and forgot that the rest of us don't have that information.
2. I wasn't defending Sloonei. I was pointing out that Sig was answering the wrong question.

What do you think about the possibility this will harm VCA (vote count analysis for those who are not familiar with the terminology) later in the game?

This is my biggest problem with Frog's plan. I find vote histories to be very informative. Here's my post that you may have missed.

Quick Plan:

These players

Spoiler: show

Golden 53
Marco 43
Sloonei 41
Frog 34
Dyslexicon 27
Silverwolf 25
sig 20
Zexy 20

Will Split up into groups of 2 and vote these players, putting each of them at 2 votes:

Spoiler: show

DrWilgy 4
Metalmarsh89 4
a2thezebra 3
Psittaciform 2

These guys will have to make a cases for each of the slankers, and finish up the votes:

Spoiler: show

MovingPictures07 13
ika 11
Long Con 11
Inawordyes 10

Spoiler: show

If this splits evenly, all 4 slankers should be put at 3 votes each.

For reference, with a hammer, the vote required to hammer is currently 9 votes.
Since there are 4 wolves, it would require 5 town to pile onto the incorrect pick, and all 4 wolves to snipe the incorrect pick, thereby explicitly revealing their team. What I'm saying is, if we choose these 4 players as wagons now, we are certainly safe within the realms of variation putting each of the 4 lurkers to 3+/- 2 votes (1-5 votes on each).

I think this is an optimal strategy since, as I've pointed, I believe wolves are least likely to be engaged in the game because it is not in their wincon, and wolves are lazy AF in games unfortunately. I believe at least one wolf must exist in that group of 4, although I believe more exist in that group of 4 personally. If we force wolves to vote amongst wolves and nonwolves, we put them in a situation that makes them mechanically vulnerable! This is optimal IMO.

I hope you all join me in my plan to make wagons on these 4 players and collect everyone's reads on these 4 players.

I like that you want to focus on the lurkers but I don't think performing vote gymnastics to build competing wagons is a good idea. This works best if you can believe the Top 8 posters are all town (which I think is very improbable). Following this plan basically means their votes are going to be "random". In the sense that we can't use the vote history later for any information. They will just be splitting their votes among the 4 lowest posters regardless of their own suspicions and we'd be at a loss for vote patterns today. Only people we'll really get information on are the MIDposters for stating their cases for or against the LOWposters. Also, we're not yet past half of Day 1 either, I wouldn't say it's fair to say that the low posters are low posters, just yet. There's plenty of time to post and contribute.

I support the spirit of your plan but not the execution. I have an alternative. We each make a list of 4-5 low posters/lurkers/etc. A list of people we think are trying to skirt by with no effort or just people we want to see more participation for. And then we place our votes accordingly.

[Tangrowth]

Spoiler: show

Golden 53 – Just paranoid about him. He’s definitely trying, bringing up good points and all. But I have no clue how good and active he is when mafia.
Marco 43 – Too many one-liners, kinda “fake” activity if you ask me. Not feeling too good about him yet.
Sloonei 41 – Town, I guess, lots of analysis, MP mentioned things about his meta…
Frog 34 – Town lean
Dyslexicon 27 – Town lean
Silverwolf 25 – Slight town lean (so goes for ika)
sig 20 – Not that sure, seems to be skating around a bit
Zexy 20 – SCUMMY SCUM LYNCH HIM NOW
MovingPictures07 13 – Provided slank cover and useful meta… unsure although leaning town.
ika 11 – check Silverwolf
Long Con 11 – Strange meta, could be scum
Inawordyes 10 – Provided some strange cover, could be scum
DrWilgy 4 – Could be scum
Metalmarsh89 4 – Could be scum
a2thezebra 3 – Could be scum
Psittaciform 2 – Could be scum

Zexy, I have the following questions and comments regarding this reads list of yours:
1) What good points has Golden brought up?
2) How does the method by which Marco post make his activity faked? What do you think of the content of his "one-liners"? I find the fact that you are considering the method rather than the content of his activity as the basis of your read suspect.
3) What's the strange cover you are referring to with respect to IAWY? I can't recall off the top of my head after doing all that reading.

Thanks, Zexy! You're the best for dealing with all of my questions, assuming you continue to do so.

Also, what is slank cover, anyone?

[Silverwolf]

I do however think that in general going after lurkers is a common baddie tactic, and I also think that the way he's gone about it by denying that it's a policy lynch is very alarming.

Well, I hate to self meta but here goes, I will try to keep lurkers around as scum. I would much rather go after a higher quality poster. That said, and I believe this was already brought up by someone, it isn't the quantity of the posts that matters but the content. I do keep that in mind and more try to go for UTR (under the radar players) that I can't read or who are not being noticed more than just low content overall.

[Marco]

Quick semi-OT:
1. Can someone explain the color tagging here to me?
2. Is there any way to have the quoted post be linked in the quote box? The board I come from lets us attach the post number after the player's name - quote=ProfessorX;2837489. Convenient, especially when you want to cut out superfluous text but don't want to make tough for people to find out the context.

Did anyone ever answer this question of Marco's, does anyone know? Sorry if it has been answered, but I saw it asked a little while ago on page 5 and I haven't seen a response yet. If not, I can respond.

Yes, I asked this a couple times already and no one responded.

[DrWilgy]

Using the hammer by this means will help us gain valuable information based on flip. If I cannot be judged based on my little contribution, at least by this plan I can assist town in some way.

The only negative I see is the potential of hitting a low key civ power role.

No I'm horribly behind. I've been looking for my name during my skim though. Still have a bad gut feel on Sloon. I'm having trouble reading Sig. I have a bad gut feel on Golden.

What valuable information would be gathered by lynching a lurker?
What information do you see coming out of lynching you based on you having low content?

What is your reason for mentioning you have trouble reading Sig, is there a point to this?

Wagons with this plan it will be easier to pick apart wagons. Better analysis latter, if my lynch is avoided within the 4 provided, yay me! If not, oh well.

Sig is try harding harder than I've seen sig try hard... Or at least it feels that way.

[Tangrowth]

However- going to have to agree with you. Ore flip associations are usually lol. But let the ENTP in me lay out all of the tinfoils anyway!!!

You're ENTP? You should join PersonalityCafe lol \o/

I'm INTJ.

[Silverwolf]

Psittaciform only has 2 posts: First one looked townish, second one was null, need to see a lot more here

Inawordyes-vote for Soneji is bad, even I don't agree with voting someone who has posting nothing at all, claims it is RVS but why hasn't he moved it yet then? null scum lean

Went through my other nulls-they are still null, I need to see more

So basically I have Golden and Inawordyes as possible scum so far, a few townreads, and lots of null reads, MP's latest posts are ok, I'm curious how he will react after all his questions are answered-I want to see his final analysis, reads

[Tangrowth]

I'm thoroughly over Ika defending Silver at any given chance. Can someone just clarify what their relationship normally is in games? It's bizarre as hell.

Ika should contribute something else.

Between the whole Silver/Golden discussion my thoughts are roughly this: First of all I didn't really see anything wrong with the MP vote. Second, none of Golden's questions were unreasonable or misrepping or whatever else Silver called it, it was just normal questioning. Reacting in this way seems to be normal for Silver though as I read it. All in all Silver reads townish to me, even if I don't agree with how she takes Golden's questioning. She seems to be putting herself in a position of being above questioning. Which she is not. Still reads more town to me. Golden however is if he is scum given a golden opportunity (see what I did there? :3) to defend himself in a way that makes logical sense all the way and he could objectively defend his position.
However my question is: Golden, do you still suspect Silver?
I also note that Golden is slightly apologetic in this interaction for "ticking Silver off" (which I don't think he needs to be cause he did nothing wrong). He may just be a polite young gentleman, but it reads a bit guilty mindset.
Like, I find it really hard to trust Golden, and I don't know whether I'm paranoid or not.

I don't know if this thought process will make sense to anyone.

The former.

[Dyslexicon]

Wagons with this plan it will be easier to pick apart wagons. Better analysis latter, if my lynch is avoided within the 4 provided, yay me! If not, oh well.

Sig is try harding harder than I've seen sig try hard... Or at least it feels that way.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

Can you please clarify
- What do you preceive "this plan" to be, and how will it make it easier to pick apart wagons. Examples?
- What do you mean with "the 4 provided".

You mentioned you couldn't read sig, so I wondered why you felt the need to say that. Now you're saying he's different somehow (if I understand you correctly)?

[Tangrowth]

I guess Zebra, Wilgy, Golden, Ika, Inaword, LC and sig are in my suspicion pile atm.

MP could be but he is totally cute so he is excused *buddies*
Metal and Soneji null for obvious reasons.

I have reads. I have the best reads. (someone please take this joke)

I'm cute? Wow, that's the first time I've heard that come from anyone other than my wife.