Phenon Mafia: ENDGAME - Snuffed

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't like this push from you at all. You're making it seem like I was being way more aggressive and repetitive than I was.

I don't care what you like or don't like. If I see something that concerns me, you're going to hear about it.

When I say "insisting" I am not referring to repetition, I am referring to the sirengif. I interpret the sirengif to be a serious expression of suspicion because it has always been such when I have seen it elsewhere. Did you intend it to be less than that?

[Golden]

Also, btw, this was the original post. On what basis do you think this implies I would vote immediately, even to someone who doesn't know me well enough to know I don't throw votes around?

I'm going to read through the original post again, but if you're right this is a great catch. This is what a real slip looks like.

You say the first half is of no relevance even if I know 'nothing' means 'vote'. But it couldn't have been more clear that there was work to do before I accepted it should correctly be considered a slip.

[Silver Lantern]

Not only does Dys link show him making the exact same play but it happened just last month. There might be room to be skeptical if he had to dig up something from years ago but as is there is nothing to contest.

What a great alibi for a scummer, huh?

Do you believe the intent behind the maneuver was to be able to refer to that alibi?

I was just making an observation of how that could be a brilliant scum play, since Soneji so easily dismissed it.

I don't know that the intent in relation to the alibi matters all that much. The "5 scum play" was either intentional or it was not, there is no other option (regardless of alignment).

I believe it was intentional since he posted a game where he allegedly did it a month ago (which I have not independently corroborated btw), but the question in my mind should not be whether he did it intentionally.

The question should be "what happened last time he did this play as town that would lead him to believe that doing it this time as town would be somehow beneficial?

Cause, "I did it for the lol" isn't really the type of play (even if town) I am necessarily interested in having to contend with later.

[Soneji]

Polls are usually kept in a separate thread Silver Lantern. That may not be the case here, so you could ask Spirityo if you're allowed to screenshot them. You said mafia don't have much reason to vote together here though, which is true but altogether an unhelpful statement that could only serve to potentially make others disassociate those voting together in the polls as being teammates. Scum on a fairly regular basis will try to seem like they're contributing by posting info that makes them look like they're being useful when in reality it's just filler disguised as activity. That is why I am questioning a lack of a real point to your statement.

Had I made only the first statement, sure, your "it's just filler statement" analysis would probably make sense.

But you're completely glossing over the fact that I placed that sentence in context in the very next sentence a sentence you also quoted along with the the sentence you're questioning. In fact, I find you're analysis quoted above to be the real "filler disguised as activity" or "mafia trying to seem helpful" way more than my original statement.

I didn't gloss over it at all, it's in the context of wanting records of the votes even though you don't think mafia will vote together that makes it weird to me.

You are probably the most ultra-defensive person I have ever encountered playing mafia. It is a consistent look though and one that doesn't feel faked.

@JoH : Are you meta reading me based off the one game we played together?

[Golden]

I don't like this push from you at all. You're making it seem like I was being way more aggressive and repetitive than I was.

I don't care what you like or don't like. If I see something that concerns me, you're going to hear about it.

When I say "insisting" I am not referring to repetition, I am referring to the sirengif. I interpret the sirengif to be a serious expression of suspicion because it has always been such when I have seen it elsewhere. Did you intend it to be less than that?

I was expressing a ping.

I'm not buying, Jay. You know me far too well for this. How often is the sirengif used here? Judging me by 'how you've seen it used in other places?'

Speedchuck's post was, on the face of it, misrepresentative. I'm happy now that it wasn't intentionally so, but that kind of stuff is going to catch my attention.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Also, btw, this was the original post. On what basis do you think this implies I would vote immediately, even to someone who doesn't know me well enough to know I don't throw votes around?

I don't think it implies that. I am not talking about my interpretation of your post. I am talking about speedchuck's interpretation of your post and your response to that interpretation -- it struck me as a sharper retort than was warranted based upon a grievance that I don't think was significant.

I'm going to read through the original post again, but if you're right this is a great catch. This is what a real slip looks like.

You say the first half is of no relevance even if I know 'nothing' means 'vote'. But it couldn't have been more clear that there was work to do before I accepted it should correctly be considered a slip.

This is where I think you're expecting too much of speedchuck in terms of his interpretive ability to judge your post on the fly (I don't think his initial interpretation was exaggerated or otherwise dubious). I do think it could have been more clear, because you ended the post with a harshly accusatory statement. The qualifying first half can be understood the way you want to be understood (and I understood it way when I encountered it), but I don't fault speedchuck for his initial perspective.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I was expressing a ping.

I'm not buying, Jay. You know me far too well for this. How often is the sirengif used here? Judging me by 'how you've seen it used in other places?'

Speedchuck's post was, on the face of it, misrepresentative. I'm happy now that it wasn't intentionally so, but that kind of stuff is going to catch my attention.

It's a giant gif of a revolving siren. When I see that, I interpret it to mean a significant ping. I can believe that you didn't intend it that way, but again we're at a place where you're demanding my interpretation be exactly what your initial intent was purported to be. That's not logical or fair. It doesn't necessarily make you bad, I'm just trying to understand your response to speedchuck.

[Soneji]

It wouldn't be a brilliant scum play as there is no true benefit for Dys in doing it, while it had a strong chance of getting them lynched with the hammer vote in place. Let's be clear that Dys is not getting town cred for his fake slip, proving that it was just that only removes him from the obvious lynch pile.

[speedchuck]

Why the aloofness? Why not say it was a fake slip right away when people started voting and calling it out?

I believe in somebody acting poorly under pressure (even self-created pressure) more than the number of coincidences the slip requires. I've already called out the aloofness as being crappy, you're right, it is. But you haven't addressed the odds.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't say Dizzy is a townread. I just can't categorize this play as a scumslip. It would be a leap of blind faith against the odds, in my eyes.

I believe that either Dizzy is trying to pull this from a meta game to look towny, as Silver Lantern suggested, or he was legitimately trying to spark discussion, and succeeded, but failed to do anything with it. I've done that before.

I've thrown something outrageous on the first day to get people to stop talking about how drunk they are before. (No offense to our lovable drunken posters)

I am talking about speedchuck's interpretation of your post and your response to that interpretation -- it struck me as a sharper retort than was warranted based upon a grievance that I don't think was significant.

To be fair, I voted him based on that. But I've already voted for three different people.

Based on the way Golden plays, and his explained views, I think his reaction was fine. Unsure about the significance whole ongoing debate.

[Golden]

This is where I think you're expecting too much of speedchuck in terms of his interpretive ability to judge your post on the fly.

Why am I expecting too much of speedchuck.

Is it expecting too much to get him to qualify what he means when he said I did nothing?
Is it expecting too much for him to quote my full quote which, on the face of it, provides a reason for not voting?

What is it that I did to speedchuck that is so repugnant to expectation? I'm trying to figure out who is being honest and dishonest in their suspicions here. That's my job.

You are saying things like 'I don't fault speedchuck for his initial perspective' as though I do fault him for it. That's the same thing as saying I was 'insisting' - it's creating a false narrative that wasn't there. Once speedchuck explained his perspective, I'm fine with it. That doesn't mean he shouldn't have to explain it. I can't come to a final and informed view about speedchuck's initial perspective without understanding what his perspective was.

But, in all of this, what bothers me most is you saying the clipped bit is of no relevance. YOU said that, even though you've now subsequently agreed that my original post doesn't imply I would vote immediately (and in fact, it clearly implies I would not). Don't revert to 'speedchucks interpretation is reasonable'. What about your interpretation that the bit he clipped out was of no relevance?

Also, I'm suffering some kind of regression where recent posts keep vanishing on my work PC, so apologies for however that might affect things today. It's always all things at once.

[speedchuck]

This is where I think you're expecting too much of speedchuck in terms of his interpretive ability to judge your post on the fly.

Also, I'm suffering some kind of regression where recent posts keep vanishing on my work PC, so apologies for however that might affect things today. It's always all things at once.

My sympathy. I am having that same problem.

[Silver Lantern]

Polls are usually kept in a separate thread Silver Lantern. That may not be the case here, so you could ask Spirityo if you're allowed to screenshot them. You said mafia don't have much reason to vote together here though, which is true but altogether an unhelpful statement that could only serve to potentially make others disassociate those voting together in the polls as being teammates. Scum on a fairly regular basis will try to seem like they're contributing by posting info that makes them look like they're being useful when in reality it's just filler disguised as activity. That is why I am questioning a lack of a real point to your statement.

Had I made only the first statement, sure, your "it's just filler statement" analysis would probably make sense.

But you're completely glossing over the fact that I placed that sentence in context in the very next sentence a sentence you also quoted along with the the sentence you're questioning. In fact, I find you're analysis quoted above to be the real "filler disguised as activity" or "mafia trying to seem helpful" way more than my original statement.

I didn't gloss over it at all, it's in the context of wanting records of the votes even though you don't think mafia will vote together that makes it weird to me.

You are probably the most ultra-defensive person I have ever encountered playing mafia. It is a consistent look though and one that doesn't feel faked.

@JoH : Are you meta reading me based off the one game we played together?

Get it straight buster, I'm definitely the most ultra-defensive person you will ever meet in your life.

Just because one can observe that mafia will try to not get caught is not a reason to stop tracking information on possible mafia. That is just a silly proposition all together on your part.

Besides, as I pointed out, it is the fact that they won't vote together which could be beneficial later as it could well indicate that those that did vote together are not scum together. No idea why you think me wanting to track that info is weird. I guess I sorta see your argument, but it just doesn't make much sense to me. Again, this entire approach of yours rings of a scummer trying to note something as useful when it really is not.

[Quin]

I've got some stuff to say too, if you'd be so kind as to answer to the contradiction I pointed out in your posts, Dys.

I didn't understand what you meant, so please explain?

You said earlier that you had three scum reads, but you later denied having any. Why?

[Silver Lantern]

The post counts don't have links to the actual posts? Ugh...

[Golden]

I was expressing a ping.

I'm not buying, Jay. You know me far too well for this. How often is the sirengif used here? Judging me by 'how you've seen it used in other places?'

Speedchuck's post was, on the face of it, misrepresentative. I'm happy now that it wasn't intentionally so, but that kind of stuff is going to catch my attention.

It's a giant gif of a revolving siren. When I see that, I interpret it to mean a significant ping. I can believe that you didn't intend it that way, but again we're at a place where you're demanding my interpretation be exactly what your initial intent was purported to be. That's not logical or fair. It doesn't necessarily make you bad, I'm just trying to understand your response to speedchuck.

No. I don't demand that you understand what I intended, and that wouldn't be logical or fair. What I do expect, based on my experience, is that when you are town you are open-minded rather than closed-minded. You're entry point in to this discussion was not to question or understand my response to speedchuck. It was to agree with speedchuck's suspicion of me by stealth (by saying the bit he clipped wasn't of relevance when I had said it was), and in a way that indicates to me that you didn't actually bother to read my original post and come to an informed opinion first, but simply to j'accuse.

[Quin]

@Fred, That is interesting about Quin. He seemed very inflexible about the slip thing. If he's a confident scum player I will take that into consideration. Can't remember anything from Jack. Am hesitant to read Golden, but no reason to think scum for now at least.

I am usually just a confident player in general. I did use it to steamroll as a baddie in a game earlier in the year, but I'm sure I have moments like that as town. I'll leave it up to whoever wants to defend me to do so on this point.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What is it that I did to speedchuck that is so repugnant to expectation? I'm trying to figure out who is being honest and dishonest in their suspicions here. That's my job.

That's exactly what I'm doing.

I don't think your treatment of speedchuck was "repugnant". I thought it was questionable. So I questioned you. My concern is that you didn't start with the questions, you started with the retorts. sirengif. "plainly misrepresentative". The judgments preceded the questions.

But, in all of this, what bothers me most is you saying the clipped bit is of no relevance. YOU said that, even though you've now subsequently agreed that my original post doesn't imply I would vote immediately (and in fact, it clearly implies I would not). Don't revert to 'speedchucks interpretation is reasonable'. What about your interpretation that the bit he clipped out was of no relevance?

His accusation was focused upon the words he highlighted, and the words that I distinctly separated from the prior half. Even without the qualification of "I need to look back at the OP", your comment was harshly accusatory. "That's what a real slip looks like". Even before the investigation you pledged to do has been done, you've accused Dyslexicon in a meaningful way. That's what speedchuck was talking about. That was the focus of his interpretation. I am saying that I understand why he reacted the way he did to your post, and I am trying to understand why your immediate response was that sharp retort you gave rather than an open line of questioning to understand him. You got there eventually, but I'm not talking about eventually.

[Quin]

The post counts don't have links to the actual posts? Ugh...

Yeah they do. Click on the 'in topic' button under your avatar and each post has a 'link to post' hyperlink on the bottom right.

[sprityo]

will be home soon, with a votals update for you all.

[Quin]

Well, if it was just the slip, there wouldn't be an issue I think. However the interaction with Silver, and the one about lady's being town Sorsha I think? (name of the player escapes me), and INH the interaction (Which I actually think Quin is correct for putting him to taks). Basically anything that flared up or was debated Quine was in the middle of it.

It's something to keep in mind not something to take as gospel. Just my experience with good players. Quin may just be the thread enforcer in general, and this probably just increases my likelihood of being scum in their eyes.

I do not understand how being something 'in general' can enforce the likelihood of being scum. Can you elaborate?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

No. I don't demand that you understand what I intended, and that wouldn't be logical or fair. What I do expect, based on my experience, is that when you are town you are open-minded rather than closed-minded. You're entry point in to this discussion was not to question or understand my response to speedchuck. It was to agree with speedchuck's suspicion of me by stealth (by saying the bit he clipped wasn't of relevance when I had said it was), and in a way that indicates to me that you didn't actually bother to read my original post and come to an informed opinion first, but simply to j'accuse.

Why do you think I opened with a question?

I don't see what relevance the clipped information had to speedchuck's accusation. Why do you feel he should have included it?

That was my entry into this dialogue. I stated a concern and then asked you about it. I didn't condemn you or even accuse you. I asked you a damned question.

[Silver Lantern]

It wouldn't be a brilliant scum play as there is no true benefit for Dys in doing it, while it had a strong chance of getting them lynched with the hammer vote in place. Let's be clear that Dys is not getting town cred for his fake slip, proving that it was just that only removes him from the obvious lynch pile.

He got plenty of town cred from you. You're convinced he's town since he did it a month ago.

Are you seriously arguing that getting instant town cred by saying, "hey look at this link guys, I do this when I am town," isn't a true benefit to a mafioso?

Can I call you butter, cause you're on a roll.

In fact, vote: Soneji because silly arguments are just scummy.

[Golden]

What is it that I did to speedchuck that is so repugnant to expectation? I'm trying to figure out who is being honest and dishonest in their suspicions here. That's my job.

That's exactly what I'm doing.

I don't think your treatment of speedchuck was "repugnant". I thought it was questionable. So I questioned you. My concern is that you didn't start with the questions, you started with the retorts. sirengif. "plainly misrepresentative". The judgments preceded the questions.

But, in all of this, what bothers me most is you saying the clipped bit is of no relevance. YOU said that, even though you've now subsequently agreed that my original post doesn't imply I would vote immediately (and in fact, it clearly implies I would not). Don't revert to 'speedchucks interpretation is reasonable'. What about your interpretation that the bit he clipped out was of no relevance?

His accusation was focused upon the words he highlighted, and the words that I distinctly separated from the prior half. Even without the qualification of "I need to look back at the OP", your comment was harshly accusatory. "That's what a real slip looks like". Even before the investigation you pledged to do has been done, you've accused Dyslexicon in a meaningful way. That's what speedchuck was talking about. That was the focus of his interpretation. I am saying that I understand why he reacted the way he did to your post, and I am trying to understand why your immediate response was that sharp retort you gave rather than an open line of questioning to understand him. You got there eventually, but I'm not talking about eventually.

Jay, you're talking all around it. Either speedchuck accused me of doing nothing at all (in which case the first half is relevant) or he accused me of not voting (in which case the first half is relevant). I am fine that speedchuck saw it as irrelevant and why. But YOU said the bit he clipped wasn't relevant. Forget what speedchuck was up to, this is about what you were up to. I think speedchuck could read that bit as irrelevant. I don't think YOU could read that post and agree that the first half was of no relevance. I think open-minded Jay would be looking at both sides, and see how I saw it as being misrepresentative, rather than coming in from one side of the argument. It feels like you are responding solely to my tone, and not to the content of my post. Did you even go back and read my post that he clipped, or did you just base your response on my precis of it?

[Quin]

I should probably start asking questions.

Silver/Quin/Fred/LC, gtth read someone in my light green to orange area, would you?

I need more evaluation from the players I've played with the most so I can evaluate your evaluations.

GTH bad on Fred, and GTH civ on the marmot, Nacho and Soneji. I agree with everything else.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Polls are usually kept in a separate thread Silver Lantern. That may not be the case here, so you could ask Spirityo if you're allowed to screenshot them. You said mafia don't have much reason to vote together here though, which is true but altogether an unhelpful statement that could only serve to potentially make others disassociate those voting together in the polls as being teammates. Scum on a fairly regular basis will try to seem like they're contributing by posting info that makes them look like they're being useful when in reality it's just filler disguised as activity. That is why I am questioning a lack of a real point to your statement.

Had I made only the first statement, sure, your "it's just filler statement" analysis would probably make sense.

But you're completely glossing over the fact that I placed that sentence in context in the very next sentence a sentence you also quoted along with the the sentence you're questioning. In fact, I find you're analysis quoted above to be the real "filler disguised as activity" or "mafia trying to seem helpful" way more than my original statement.

I didn't gloss over it at all, it's in the context of wanting records of the votes even though you don't think mafia will vote together that makes it weird to me.

You are probably the most ultra-defensive person I have ever encountered playing mafia. It is a consistent look though and one that doesn't feel faked.

@JoH : Are you meta reading me based off the one game we played together?

I'm meta trying to decide if I should give you the benefit of the doubt for a bad push.

[Quin]

And the game he said it in had information in the OP of how many scum there were.

*runs off to investigate*

Strawhenge I don't see it, please help.

Discrepancy between number of player pairs and role powers. It's 6, and I tried to find where there might have been a scum caught, but that website is awful to navigate and I hate it and it's bad.

It's not concrete, but there's some information. Unless I'm massively misunderstanding it.

When this gets cleared up, let me know. But I like Strawhenge a lot right now for putting in that much effort to validate the context.

[Silver Lantern]

The post counts don't have links to the actual posts? Ugh...

Yeah they do. Click on the 'in topic' button under your avatar and each post has a 'link to post' hyperlink on the bottom right.

Yeah, but you can't do it from the post count list here: http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/postin ... t=1266&f=2

Still, I do appreciate the help and info Quin.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't think you're bad Golden so I'm ending this. Yes, I would say that I was perturbed by your tone and that was primary motivator of my injection into the dialogue. I am being completely open-minded in this conversation, indeed that's the entire point. I am asking questions, and then answering your accusations. That creates the image of a restrictive mindset (because I am forced to qualify and repeat points from one side), but it isn't restrictive. The purpose to better understand the other side.

Suspect me if you want, I don't really care. The conversation served its purpose.

[Silver Lantern]

Man, the games on here are a bear. I cannot even imagine how hard it must be to act as a replacement here.

None of you have jobs, right?

[Quin]

I don't know which post it was that brought me there, but I'm town-reading Silver.

[Quin]

The post counts don't have links to the actual posts? Ugh...

Yeah they do. Click on the 'in topic' button under your avatar and each post has a 'link to post' hyperlink on the bottom right.

Yeah, but you can't do it from the post count list here: http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/postin ... t=1266&f=2

Still, I do appreciate the help and info Quin.

Oh yeah, that's just a reference to how many posts each person has. It'd be sweet if that ever became a thing though. There's always a period at the start of games where we wait for the code-savvy guy to come along and put our post links on the front page.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

And the game he said it in had information in the OP of how many scum there were.

*runs off to investigate*

Strawhenge I don't see it, please help.

Discrepancy between number of player pairs and role powers. It's 6, and I tried to find where there might have been a scum caught, but that website is awful to navigate and I hate it and it's bad.

It's not concrete, but there's some information. Unless I'm massively misunderstanding it.

When this gets cleared up, let me know. But I like Strawhenge a lot right now for putting in that much effort to validate the context.

I want to agree, though I am still having difficulty seeing what Strawhenge saw in that OP. The effort to dig is nice.

[speedchuck]

It wouldn't be a brilliant scum play as there is no true benefit for Dys in doing it, while it had a strong chance of getting them lynched with the hammer vote in place. Let's be clear that Dys is not getting town cred for his fake slip, proving that it was just that only removes him from the obvious lynch pile.

He got plenty of town cred from you. You're convinced he's town since he did it a month ago.

Are you seriously arguing that getting instant town cred by saying, "hey look at this link guys, I do this when I am town," isn't a true benefit to a mafioso?

wat

"Let's be clear, Dizzy isn't town for this."
"No, you're convinced he's town. I don't like your reasoning for being convinced he's town. I'm going to vote you for your silly reasoning."

Perhaps I should follow more of this argument, but dang SL, you almost made me switch my vote off of Strawhenge with that reasoning. Is there a post that Soneji makes that argues Dizzy as looking towny?

[Golden]

No. I don't demand that you understand what I intended, and that wouldn't be logical or fair. What I do expect, based on my experience, is that when you are town you are open-minded rather than closed-minded. You're entry point in to this discussion was not to question or understand my response to speedchuck. It was to agree with speedchuck's suspicion of me by stealth (by saying the bit he clipped wasn't of relevance when I had said it was), and in a way that indicates to me that you didn't actually bother to read my original post and come to an informed opinion first, but simply to j'accuse.

Why do you think I opened with a question?

I don't see what relevance the clipped information had to speedchuck's accusation. Why do you feel he should have included it?

That was my entry into this dialogue. I stated a concern and then asked you about it. I didn't condemn you or even accuse you. I asked you a damned question.

Sure. You asked me, in essence, why I saw it as misrepresentation. Then when I replied you said this.

To me it looks more like you insisting upon a misrepresentation that isn't actually meaningful than speedchuck doing the misrepresenting.

The question feels to me like a trap upon which you get me to explain my interpretation, then tell me I'm insisting upon it as the truth.

linki @Jay - I do suspect you. You continue to avoid answering direct questions, such as 'did you go back and read my original post before declaring the clipped bit of no relevance', that I want answers to. To me it feels like you came in with a prejudged viewpoint on the conversation, and this feels false. It didn't feel like you wanted to sort me out, it felt like you were hoping for a reason to read me as bad.

Having said that - I understand your point in not belabouring the conversation. No need to derail the thread, so I'll do my best to respect that.

There's another thing I suspect from you today too, but I have to find it, and I do want to address that one before I leave you alone.

[Quin]

I am expecting the mafia will not vote as a block, at least not early.

That brings to mind, are the poll results stored anywhere or do I need to do a screenshot to retain that info?

What was the point in stating this?

Which part, the top or bottom? And why do I need a point to make a random comment?

Are you really not able to tell that the top part is merely context for the second part? If the polls are not tracked somewhere, which I don't think anyone answered, then it makes sense for us to track them with screenshots to have another measure of where mafia could have potentially voted on a poll as a block. Makes no sense for them to block vote together on something that is public information at this stage of the game. So we can safely assume that if 3 guys voted mutant for example they're probably not Mafia together.

This was the post I liked. Not sure why I liked it so much I civ-read him for it, but I do agree with this. I've never really considered analysing Day 0 polls.

I do think Silver is contributing. He's not in my sights for a lynch.

[Silver Lantern]

It wouldn't be a brilliant scum play as there is no true benefit for Dys in doing it, while it had a strong chance of getting them lynched with the hammer vote in place. Let's be clear that Dys is not getting town cred for his fake slip, proving that it was just that only removes him from the obvious lynch pile.

He got plenty of town cred from you. You're convinced he's town since he did it a month ago.

Are you seriously arguing that getting instant town cred by saying, "hey look at this link guys, I do this when I am town," isn't a true benefit to a mafioso?

wat

"Let's be clear, Dizzy isn't town for this."
"No, you're convinced he's town. I don't like your reasoning for being convinced he's town. I'm going to vote you for your silly reasoning."

Perhaps I should follow more of this argument, but dang SL, you almost made me switch my vote off of Strawhenge with that reasoning. Is there a post that Soneji makes that argues Dizzy as looking towny?

Yes.

Not only does Dys link show him making the exact same play but it happened just last month. There might be room to be skeptical if he had to dig up something from years ago but as is there is nothing to contest.

Filler.

[Golden]

OK, I'm going back to speedchuck because on a read back, I just realised he posted this first, before the post in which he voted for me.

I've never come across an intentional fake slip before.

What did you hope to achieve with it?

I'm not really that bothered about your expectations of me. I haven't played very many closed role madness games and they still have plenty of surprises for me. I might be innovative but that doesn't mean I imagine everything that others think of. When quin posted about a slip it felt like an epiphany.

Others more familiar - is dizzy correct when he says 'fake slips' such as this are common?

Marmot has already fakeslipped. I have already fakeslipped. Dizzy was just more subtle than either of us, but at the same time even more fake.
As I pointed out in a previous post (I am invisible this game, as a busy seldom-poster), there were three scumslips/classic scumtells in that one post. I can't see that as an accident.

And even if Dizzy is too lazy to capitalize on the reads, there's more information/discussion to be had on the way people treated Dizzy's 'slip'.
I've seen people fakeslip to get D1 rolling. I've seen fakeclaims. I've seen people start fabricating scumreads to get people pressured/riled.

This isn't that weird.

Dang you kids post a lot. I'll have thoughts on some other people later today.

Speedchuck, you'd seen the post in which I explained I'd never seen a fakeslip before. This means you had gotten far enough through to see my full progression, from 'this is what a real slip looks like', through 'I'm looked at the op and seen nothing', through 'I'm not voting in part because I don't want a hammer vote' (that one's important), through to this point at which I first realise this could be a scam and not real.

Given you had read the thread through this far and should know that I'd explained at least part of my rationale for why I hadn't voted yet - how do you come to a legitimate vote for me later?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

linki @Jay - I do suspect you. You continue to avoid answering direct questions, such as 'did you go back and read my original post before declaring the clipped bit of no relevance', that I want answers to. To me it feels like you came in with a prejudged viewpoint on the conversation, and this feels false. It didn't feel like you wanted to sort me out, it felt like you were hoping for a reason to read me as bad.

It's much easier to read you as good. If I'm bad I don't need to go looking for reasons to poke you. Even when I was serial killer Alfothad in GY!BE and we got into a little spat, my suspicion was genuine albeit short-lived (I didn't know the scum team either). I understand your point, and I will grant that there is relevance to the prior half of your statement to speedchuck's accusation. After engaging you in this conversation, I better understand the post that initially bothered me. I did go back and read your original post, though I could perhaps admit that the ping was already there because of my reception of your tone. If I am at all pinged by anything you post, I am going to investigate the matter -- not because I want to read you as bad, but because it is literally crucial that you not be allowed to get away with anything even if it's a small offense. You're very hard to lynch, and if you're bad I want every head start to figuring that out.

I'd expect the same treatment in reverse.

There's another thing I suspect from you today too, but I have to find it, and I do want to address that one before I leave you alone.

Sure.

[Quin]

That latter post of Soneji is not something I like. It's shutting down opposition to something that by all rights should be discussed until everyone's sick of talking about it.

[Quin]

linki @Jay - I do suspect you. You continue to avoid answering direct questions, such as 'did you go back and read my original post before declaring the clipped bit of no relevance', that I want answers to. To me it feels like you came in with a prejudged viewpoint on the conversation, and this feels false. It didn't feel like you wanted to sort me out, it felt like you were hoping for a reason to read me as bad.

It's much easier to read you as good. If I'm bad I don't need to go looking for reasons to poke you. Even when I was serial killer Alfothad in GY!BE and we got into a little spat, my suspicion was genuine albeit short-lived (I didn't know the scum team either). I understand your point, and I will grant that there is relevance to the prior half of your statement to speedchuck's accusation. After engaging you in this conversation, I better understand the post that initially bothered me. I did go back and read your original post, though I could perhaps admit that the ping was already there because of my reception of your tone. If I am at all pinged by anything you post, I am going to investigate the matter -- not because I want to read you as bad, but because it is literally crucial that you not be allowed to get away with anything even if it's a small offense. You're very hard to lynch, and if you're bad I want every head start to figuring that out.

I'd expect the same treatment in reverse.

There's another thing I suspect from you today too, but I have to find it, and I do want to address that one before I leave you alone.

Sure.

You are not lazy.

[Golden]

The parallel is close, but it doesn't inherently make Dizzy a townie. I have to ask the following question though:

~ Does Dizzy have any reason to fake fakeslip as a bad guy to appear like their town self (typing that feels hilarious) in this environment where nobody really knows their town self anyway? I'm going to say no.

This is the other Jay post that pinged me.

Why did you come to the 'no' conclusion, Jay?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

You are not lazy.

Agreed. I also don't take on unnecessary workloads. I am an efficient player, I do the work that I think needs doing (as any alignment). Turning against Golden abruptly and briefly is not that for a baddie. That accomplishes nothing other than earning his ire.

[Soneji]

It wouldn't be a brilliant scum play as there is no true benefit for Dys in doing it, while it had a strong chance of getting them lynched with the hammer vote in place. Let's be clear that Dys is not getting town cred for his fake slip, proving that it was just that only removes him from the obvious lynch pile.

He got plenty of town cred from you. You're convinced he's town since he did it a month ago.

Are you seriously arguing that getting instant town cred by saying, "hey look at this link guys, I do this when I am town," isn't a true benefit to a mafioso?

wat

"Let's be clear, Dizzy isn't town for this."
"No, you're convinced he's town. I don't like your reasoning for being convinced he's town. I'm going to vote you for your silly reasoning."

Perhaps I should follow more of this argument, but dang SL, you almost made me switch my vote off of Strawhenge with that reasoning. Is there a post that Soneji makes that argues Dizzy as looking towny?

He is confusing me saying that the argument that Dys legit slilled is pretty much null and void as me giving Dys town cred. Dys can be still be scum and faking his town meta with that fake slip, it is just not an angle that I think is worth pursuing.

A lot of people confuse convoluted with brilliant.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

The parallel is close, but it doesn't inherently make Dizzy a townie. I have to ask the following question though:

~ Does Dizzy have any reason to fake fakeslip as a bad guy to appear like their town self (typing that feels hilarious) in this environment where nobody really knows their town self anyway? I'm going to say no.

This is the other Jay post that pinged me.

Why did you come to the 'no' conclusion, Jay?

If Dyslexicon's initial intent was to fake-fakeslip so that he might appear as his town self, it wouldn't ever work on this website because nobody here has a clue that's something he does a townie. Indeed the only way for Dizzy to get that information to us is to make the slip, get suspected, and then respond with the link to the past game.

That's a more complex mindset than I am inclined to associate with a Day 1 goofball fakeslip.

[Quin]

That latter post of Soneji is not something I like. It's shutting down opposition to something that by all rights should be discussed until everyone's sick of talking about it.

On that note, I still think Dys slipped.

If the fake slip was a tactic to spark discussion, what was the purpose of the contradiction in her scum-reads? If that wasn't a contradiction, it was another conversation starter. I rule that out because Dys has done nothing with the reactions to that part of her post, and she's even asked me to clarify it. Besides, I wouldn't expect two conversation starters in the same post.

[Golden]

It's much easier to read you as good. If I'm bad I don't need to go looking for reasons to poke you. Even when I was serial killer Alfothad in GY!BE and we got into a little spat, my suspicion was genuine albeit short-lived (I didn't know the scum team either). I understand your point, and I will grant that there is relevance to the prior half of your statement to speedchuck's accusation. After engaging you in this conversation, I better understand the post that initially bothered me. I did go back and read your original post, though I could perhaps admit that the ping was already there because of my reception of your tone. If I am at all pinged by anything you post, I am going to investigate the matter -- not because I want to read you as bad, but because it is literally crucial that you not be allowed to get away with anything even if it's a small offense. You're very hard to lynch, and if you're bad I want every head start to figuring that out.

I'd expect the same treatment in reverse.

OK. This is a fair response.

The use of 'sirengif' was intended as a game-referential way to say ping (because of Straw going and looking for it), rather than intended as an overly accusatory one. I like to riff off whatever is going on around me.

[Silver Lantern]

It wouldn't be a brilliant scum play as there is no true benefit for Dys in doing it, while it had a strong chance of getting them lynched with the hammer vote in place. Let's be clear that Dys is not getting town cred for his fake slip, proving that it was just that only removes him from the obvious lynch pile.

He got plenty of town cred from you. You're convinced he's town since he did it a month ago.

Are you seriously arguing that getting instant town cred by saying, "hey look at this link guys, I do this when I am town," isn't a true benefit to a mafioso?

Can I call you butter, cause you're on a roll.

In fact, vote: Soneji because silly arguments are just scummy.

vote: Soneji



Now I see why you need to color your posts. Bolding is practically useless on here. Another thing to hate about this site, JJJ.

Let's see:
1. Black background as default.
2. There are five sign up threads in the sign up forum and I don't understand the difference.
3. Threads disappear (like the sign up thread for this game).
4. The post count list doesn't link to posts.
5. Bolding is useless.
6. JoH is on here. (Just kidding Jackie )

But hey, at least there's no delay between posting.

[Soneji]

That latter post of Soneji is not something I like. It's shutting down opposition to something that by all rights should be discussed until everyone's sick of talking about it.

Says the queen of tinfoil.

[Quin]

You are not lazy.

Agreed. I also don't take on unnecessary workloads. I am an efficient player, I do the work that I think needs doing (as any alignment). Turning against Golden abruptly and briefly is not that for a baddie. That accomplishes nothing other than earning his ire.

I don't believe at all that you're the kind of baddie who'd take the easy route by staying on the good side of one of the best scum hunters on the site. I have faith that your baddie game would be more entertaining than that.

[Golden]

You are not lazy.

Agreed. I also don't take on unnecessary workloads. I am an efficient player, I do the work that I think needs doing (as any alignment). Turning against Golden abruptly and briefly is not that for a baddie. That accomplishes nothing other than earning his ire.

You have trouble concealing the falseness of accusations when you are bad (I remember RYM87 and the 2015 Champs finale). And you also know that I don't feel ire for people merely for their suspicion, but only if I perceive the suspicion as false.