Phenon Mafia: ENDGAME - Snuffed

[Quin]

There's probably at least one scum between JOH, JJJ, Strawhenge, and Golden, but I'm gonna wait until I have a little more info to try to ferret that out. The amount of anti-alignment in these is palpable, in my eyes. I will also be looking at this later in the day.

Is there a particular reason you place these names together in this group?

1. It is my experience that, in most mafia games (esp. when town is struggling to get strong scumreads), at least one Mafioso will be very engaged. Others try to stay out of his way a bit more, or directly engage him. Either way, these selected are active players, strawhenge on the slightly lesser side because of his disappearance and sudden reversal on the fakeslip.
2. I have seen a lot of argument between JOH/JJJ, JJJ/Strawhenge, Golden/JJJ, and some other pairs. Basically, these all look to be engaged players, and none of them look particularly aligned.
3. The arguments that I've seen look very anti-aligned, but they still weasel out into being differences in gameplay style, and apologies go around. The defensive twists that turn everything on end like that worry me. It would surprise me to have THAT MUCH of this type of conflict among town. More of a correlation thing for me then causation, but enough for me to want to look at it today.
4. (Biggest reason) Gut. I do have decent townreads on these four. That probably needs to change, for me at least. That's how I feel. I'm going to try to find out what my gut is telling me before calling for lynch wagons or anything.

An idea, or a question, really:
JOH, JJJ, Strawhenge, and Golden: Who is most likely to be scum out of the other three in this group?
You're the ones that have been debating/disputing a bit, so your opinions probably matter to me.

Oh, I see how it is

[nutella]

Haven't sorted out how I feel about the jay/Quin exchange. I do think the focus on information is odd though. I'm familiar with info dumping being either pretty highly discouraged if not illegal, or with people sometimes hinting at having info but usually fairly subtly. But even with people claiming to have info, I find asking about night results in general as jjj did to be pretty weird especially when we don't even know what the role abilities are.

Not have I figured out how I feel about inh's sassy clapback defense. I'm tending to think it fits his typically zany personality, but I don't think that's necessarily alignment indicative either way for him.

Picking up dinner, I promise I'll get to that annotated rainbow eventually when I'm back at my computer.

[nutella]

Nor* have I figured out

[Quin]

Hey JOH, please tell me about your perspective of Quin.

Town. I like his observations. I like his reactions.

My one hesitation is he's much calmer and less tunnely than last game. This is better town play, it just doesn't 100% match his last pro town performance.

Still put him near the top of my rainbow list.

I'd say that there are a hundred different 'pro-town' performances you might see from me. How I approach a game (alignment aside, even) tends to have a lot to do with how I'm feeling at the time of posting. I can't really support a self-meta analysis like that on my own, but that's just how I perceive myself.

[nutella]

... Idk Q, posts like that make me less and less confident in you. That's a pretty scummy defense there. You're in danger of losing your green status

[Fredwood]

I want to see more of Dys, and I can't justify leaving it there because of gut.

But it's ok to lynch me in my first game...I'm confused as to wanting to lynch Dys so aggressively but now wanting to see more of them, and then voting for another person you haven't seen before.

You still haven't given any reason for a read, or your "gut" feeling, as amorphous as that terminology is, so there really isn't much chance for one to respond. Really, it all originated from an aside I made publicly stating my tempered reservations of your playstyle. Which I have explained twice, once to you specifically and once as a clarification to someone else that the concern was from general experience from being mislead before and not a statement about you specifically, and yet you still haven't made a rebuttal to further the discussion.

So either you're not paying attention and still taking a confrontational approach or you are now playing the "My gut" card just trying to sway the vote in the 11th hour to an unlikely lynch target. Feels a bit like CYA after pushing so hard on DYS, and now that it has soured and people are starting to get annoyed at people who are still voting for Dys, you're scrambling to get off the train you started.

Striking out the first paragraph, because that's where the misunderstandings came from.

I'm caught up to here, so it's time to revisit Fredwood.

I was explicit in my reason for suspecting you. You might be mistaking my mention of gut, which I was referring to Dys in. You never replied to me, but your response to 3J about it doesn't address my reason for suspicion at all. I felt ignored. It just elaborates on your point while changing your stance from a soft defense while simultaneously deferring based on a lack of info, to straight defense.

only reinforces my point. You defend Dys, but you're also saying at the same time 'But I don't know her, it could just be how she plays'.

I'm still not sure I follow. My "soft defense" was because I didn't view it as a slip. The whole fake slip thing had not been addressed at that point or even brought up iirc.

I think what I was saying is, I disnt see a reason outside of sheer stupidity for a legit slip of that magnitude. Additionally I didn't see a purpose to draw that much attention as a ploy for scum unless Dizzy was known as an incredibly risky player. I kind of viewed the whole thing as an exercise in drama wrangling out of a joke post.

When I was talking about deferring to others who had more experience with Diz (at that point I assumed incorrectly that Silver and I were the only new players here), so didn't know if she was known for these shenanigans and would have changed my assessment of the situation if there was more information provided.

Basically until I'm proven wrong I'll assume I'm correct in my read.

[Dyslexicon]

Catch up Quote Post

Well crap, now there's 5 mafia alive and I have 0 scumreads.

I get this reference. How do you know WIlgy wasn't scum?

I kind of love this. Observant.

It would have been easy to justify given dizzy was essentially asking someone to. I feel like this could be noteworthy. Eg, did anyone express suspicion of sig but hold back from the hammer?

I wasn't really asking someone to, as I also said it would be good if Sig showed up before day end. But it's probably true that some could perceive me to be asking for it.

Did Dyslexicon ever explain the strategic benefit of the fake slip on Day 1? Was it just a reaction grab?

I tried explaining as much as I could. Basically just trying to create content/reactions/drama (which is very much my D1 playstyle). How I do it is not as important as that I do it (which is why I found the investigation of whether this particular tactic on my homesite (which is a totally different situation) was concretely "useful" in a black/white manner not relevant). Take it as a reaction grab/spontanious play out of curiousity/personality.

Wow, I should have just put the names in colour. That's hideous.

All your scum reads are sarcasm lol.

3J asked me if my role was tampered with/redirected/whatever, and to that I refuse to answer. It sounds like an attempt to figure out what type of role I have. Why are you asking me in particular?

Why would he be especially interested in your role as scum? It's extremely unsubtle if it's a rolefish attempt.

I'm just posting as I read so ignore it if you've been asked/answered this already, but can you explain all of these pairings? Do you still believe in any number of them now?

Let's see.
Nut/JJJ - JJJ's early hard defense of Nut is unlikely between teammates.
Golden/JJJ - for the interaction where JJJ pushed Golden and Golden pushed hard back. I mean, I have been tinfoiling Golden + JJJ, but that's probably just me being crazy. Plus the back to back Sig votes reinforces them not teamed imo. Plus, I wouldn't be mad if I lost to that performance.
Straw/JJJ - Similar to the Nut/JJJ reasoning in that there seemed to be an early buddying/trusting tone between them that I read unlikely teamed. This may be weaker though.
Silver/Soneji - For RAH RAH disagreement on D1.
Speed/Golden - I actually can't remember why I had this one. o.o

But yeah. I still agree with these (provided I find the reason for my Speed/Golden thing.

I would also like to add:
Fred/Quin - for their/your interaction late D1.

I still feel behind and am struggling to weigh in on a lot of cases because I simply do not have the full context of a lot or things going on in this game. This is not a complaint, just an update on my status. The prospect of reading the entire thread start to finish is daunting and strikes me as an exhausting waste of time, so instead I'd like to ask you all for a favor. If there are any particular series of events that you'd like me to look at or any specific players deserving of my attention, please point me in the right direction and I'll start digging around. If there's anything you think should be getting more attention than it is right now, I am dancing around and begging you to tell me about it, so please use me to your advantage. I have to work tonight and don't usually have energy for huge case-making afterwards, so I likely won't be doing much until tomorrow morning but I'm better off collecting a checklist of Things To Do ahead of time.

please and thanks

I would appreciate you looking into Marmot, as I don't think he's getting nearly enough love and attention. D1 I felt I was basically the only one bothering to question him. I take it you two are familiar as I remember both of you from my first game here.

Also taking a look at Scotty would be good, since you mentioned being able to read him.

Asking Sloonei and me for my history in info-dumping games.

Your reaction to my question led me to that. You reacted in a particular way that I think can be better understood with that information available to me. I'm hoping Sloonei can give me a quick take before I expand on that.

I see what JJJ is getting at here, I think.

[Quin]

... Idk Q, posts like that make me less and less confident in you. That's a pretty scummy defense there. You're in danger of losing your green status

I figured. But you'll notice that I'm one of Jack's strongest town reads, so to defend myself that way as scum would be counter-productive.

[Quin]

I want to see more of Dys, and I can't justify leaving it there because of gut.

But it's ok to lynch me in my first game...I'm confused as to wanting to lynch Dys so aggressively but now wanting to see more of them, and then voting for another person you haven't seen before.

You still haven't given any reason for a read, or your "gut" feeling, as amorphous as that terminology is, so there really isn't much chance for one to respond. Really, it all originated from an aside I made publicly stating my tempered reservations of your playstyle. Which I have explained twice, once to you specifically and once as a clarification to someone else that the concern was from general experience from being mislead before and not a statement about you specifically, and yet you still haven't made a rebuttal to further the discussion.

So either you're not paying attention and still taking a confrontational approach or you are now playing the "My gut" card just trying to sway the vote in the 11th hour to an unlikely lynch target. Feels a bit like CYA after pushing so hard on DYS, and now that it has soured and people are starting to get annoyed at people who are still voting for Dys, you're scrambling to get off the train you started.

Striking out the first paragraph, because that's where the misunderstandings came from.

I'm caught up to here, so it's time to revisit Fredwood.

I was explicit in my reason for suspecting you. You might be mistaking my mention of gut, which I was referring to Dys in. You never replied to me, but your response to 3J about it doesn't address my reason for suspicion at all. I felt ignored. It just elaborates on your point while changing your stance from a soft defense while simultaneously deferring based on a lack of info, to straight defense.

only reinforces my point. You defend Dys, but you're also saying at the same time 'But I don't know her, it could just be how she plays'.

I'm still not sure I follow. My "soft defense" was because I didn't view it as a slip. The whole fake slip thing had not been addressed at that point or even brought up iirc.

I think what I was saying is, I disnt see a reason outside of sheer stupidity for a legit slip of that magnitude. Additionally I didn't see a purpose to draw that much attention as a ploy for scum unless Dizzy was known as an incredibly risky player. I kind of viewed the whole thing as an exercise in drama wrangling out of a joke post.

When I was talking about deferring to others who had more experience with Diz (at that point I assumed incorrectly that Silver and I were the only new players here), so didn't know if she was known for these shenanigans and would have changed my assessment of the situation if there was more information provided.

Basically until I'm proven wrong I'll assume I'm correct in my read.

The crux of my argument against you is, in essence, that I didn't like how you threw your two cents on the idea of Dys's slip (before the fake-slip became a thing) while simultaneously saying you'd defer because of a lack of familiarity. You were essentially discrediting your own argument while maintaining the ability to claim that you weren't on board after the lynch. I don't get the impression that you were seeking input from other people when you said that.

[speedchuck]

There's probably at least one scum between JOH, JJJ, Strawhenge, and Golden, but I'm gonna wait until I have a little more info to try to ferret that out. The amount of anti-alignment in these is palpable, in my eyes. I will also be looking at this later in the day.

Is there a particular reason you place these names together in this group?

1. It is my experience that, in most mafia games (esp. when town is struggling to get strong scumreads), at least one Mafioso will be very engaged. Others try to stay out of his way a bit more, or directly engage him. Either way, these selected are active players, strawhenge on the slightly lesser side because of his disappearance and sudden reversal on the fakeslip.
2. I have seen a lot of argument between JOH/JJJ, JJJ/Strawhenge, Golden/JJJ, and some other pairs. Basically, these all look to be engaged players, and none of them look particularly aligned.
3. The arguments that I've seen look very anti-aligned, but they still weasel out into being differences in gameplay style, and apologies go around. The defensive twists that turn everything on end like that worry me. It would surprise me to have THAT MUCH of this type of conflict among town. More of a correlation thing for me then causation, but enough for me to want to look at it today.
4. (Biggest reason) Gut. I do have decent townreads on these four. That probably needs to change, for me at least. That's how I feel. I'm going to try to find out what my gut is telling me before calling for lynch wagons or anything.

An idea, or a question, really:
JOH, JJJ, Strawhenge, and Golden: Who is most likely to be scum out of the other three in this group?
You're the ones that have been debating/disputing a bit, so your opinions probably matter to me.

Oh, I see how it is

Hey man,
Part of it was gut. Strawhenge isn't really as active as you. Honest. I could suspect you too, if you want. <3

As for Quin's meta, I disagree with Nutella that Quin's 'defense' of it was bad. Quin has had several different styles of play, just in this game. I'm enjoying this one.

[Quin]

There's probably at least one scum between JOH, JJJ, Strawhenge, and Golden, but I'm gonna wait until I have a little more info to try to ferret that out. The amount of anti-alignment in these is palpable, in my eyes. I will also be looking at this later in the day.

Is there a particular reason you place these names together in this group?

1. It is my experience that, in most mafia games (esp. when town is struggling to get strong scumreads), at least one Mafioso will be very engaged. Others try to stay out of his way a bit more, or directly engage him. Either way, these selected are active players, strawhenge on the slightly lesser side because of his disappearance and sudden reversal on the fakeslip.
2. I have seen a lot of argument between JOH/JJJ, JJJ/Strawhenge, Golden/JJJ, and some other pairs. Basically, these all look to be engaged players, and none of them look particularly aligned.
3. The arguments that I've seen look very anti-aligned, but they still weasel out into being differences in gameplay style, and apologies go around. The defensive twists that turn everything on end like that worry me. It would surprise me to have THAT MUCH of this type of conflict among town. More of a correlation thing for me then causation, but enough for me to want to look at it today.
4. (Biggest reason) Gut. I do have decent townreads on these four. That probably needs to change, for me at least. That's how I feel. I'm going to try to find out what my gut is telling me before calling for lynch wagons or anything.

An idea, or a question, really:
JOH, JJJ, Strawhenge, and Golden: Who is most likely to be scum out of the other three in this group?
You're the ones that have been debating/disputing a bit, so your opinions probably matter to me.

Oh, I see how it is

Hey man,
Part of it was gut. Strawhenge isn't really as active as you. Honest. I could suspect you too, if you want. <3

As for Quin's meta, I disagree with Nutella that Quin's 'defense' of it was bad. Quin has had several different styles of play, just in this game. I'm enjoying this one.

Yes please. I'm like tinkerbell. If people stop paying attention to me, I'll die.

[Dyslexicon]

Catch up Other Notes Post

1. So here's my reaction to JJJ's NK analysis:



In my experience, NK analysis is extremely hard to do and involves a lot of assumptions that if you're town you have no way of knowing. How the mafia team dynamic is and what they base their decision on and who ultimately makes that decision is highly complex and circumstantial and involves so much unknown information that it's basically pointless to speculate about it. I don't put much weight into this analysis and not sure what it's supposed to do or help us with. Furthermore, this is a closed game, making it even more speculative.

What I do think is true is that JJJ would not prefer to kill Nacho himself. What this tells me is that JJJ probably did not (intentionally) kill Nacho. It's possible JJJ is particularly devilish as scum (which I won't fault anyone for) and make this argument while having murdered Nacho with cold blood, but I find that type of argument unlikely, because it's unnecessary.

@JJJ, Why did you find it necessary to bring this up at all though, the fact that you were unlikely to kill Nacho?


2. I agree with Silver that INH's vote at EOD looks bad. I don't get much of a read on INH at all, and I find him to be particularly on the side of almost all discussion. Haven't seen him give much in terms of reads or opinions on other players that I can remember. Who here is familiar with him? Is this normal?

3. @JOH, You mentioned you had a theory of me and Straw being teamed on D1. Can you explain this more? I find it very curious given our interaction even before my fakeslip, as he seemed to get upset with me for my crude way of expressing suspicion towards him. I'm me, so I have a different perspective, but I find it odd that you would view our interaction as possible distancing. You also mentioned D1, if iirc, that you had me/Scotty as not teamed (?) Can you expand on this?

4. I'm intrigued by Golden's unsure read on Straw. I should maybe revisit my own read on him, since I did have an initial bad gut feeling. I'm also intrigued by whoever gave account for JOH being a good scum player and will take this into consideration.

5. Analysing the Sig wagon is all fine and dandy. However, I find it just as interesting to analyse the votes that fell outside of this or the ones that didn't vote at all. I don't find that any D1 mislynch is super likely to have a ton of scum in it, rather I think scum are more afraid of getting blood on their hands early in the game while town is very capable of mislynching on their own. This point can be WIFOMed, but I don't think where a particular vote ended is as important as why.

---

At this point I'm wanting to use Occam's Razor on JJJ and just say it's more likely that he's town. Even if I keep seeing things that makes me hm a bit, I can't deny that his actions seems natural and pro-town and just unlikely to be scum. I also would not be upset to lose to a scum!JJJ (maybe a dumb argument, but that's just how I feel right now). I ...don't know. Ironically the whole feeling I have reminds me so much of how I was lulled in by Moving in my first game after initially thinking he was scum. But I'm going to say that ignorance is bliss and Occam has his uses.

Sometimes I feel that Golden acts like I'm confirmed town.

I remember seeing something EOD 1 that made me more suspicious of Speed once Sig flipped town. Will look again.

Suspicions I guess on Marmot/Eloh/Speed, but maybe also LC/INH/Soneji.

---

I find it quite hard to get reads in this game, and this is just me ranting for my own sanity. I usually rely quite heavily upon meta. And it annoys me that I didn't stick to my gut feel on Sig, cause that was actually based on whatever little meta I had, but I completely forgot about it. Speaking of, I had the opposite gut on LC, in that he was town last game and this game he feels a bit different to me.

Silver stikes me as more town. The one thing that throws me off is that he will have this stubborn and aggressive discussion with someone (in which I often disagree with his logic, even if I can see where he is coming from), and then suddenly he will switch gears and just go "Alright, that makes sense now. I can see what you are saying". And it's a completely different energy. He did it with me D1 and he did it with Sloonei this day. Is this normal for Silver?
@Fred @JOH?

I feel Sloonei comes across as more town than not.

[Golden]

If people stop paying attention to me, I'll die.

Infoclaim

[Quin]

If people stop paying attention to me, I'll die.

Infoclaim

I need to be quoted in increasing increments of one every phase. Don't let my light go out.

[Quin]

I'm caught up now. Here's some stuff:

I'm not interested in an Eloh lynch. She hasn't done much more than justify her Day 1 vote, and I'm not pinged by what she had to say at all.
I don't suspect Scotty. His mention that he thinks the big talkers are circumventing is something that's been pinging around in my head for a while. I appreciate that he thinks so too.

I'm likely to vote between Fredwood and Jack, probably in that order. I could entertain 3J.

[Golden]

Sometimes I feel that Golden acts like I'm confirmed town.

Not sure exactly what you're seeing or how you mean this, but I tend to act like everyone is town. Even when I suspect someone on one hand, I don't want to ignore their perspective on things on the other, in case I'm wrong. I think I'm much better at figuring out who is town than who is bad, so this also aids my hunting approach.

[Fredwood]

So because I didn't phrase my objection as a question is why I'm at the top of your list? I mean if someone has more experience on the matter why wouldn't I defer to them...it would be illogical and boorish for me not to.

Or that I went out on a limb and defended a player I knew nothing about?

Either way I still don't get your objection, I don't see how I discredited my defense because I was still defending them.
How else would I have approached defending someone I didn't know? I wasn't interested in pursuing a lynch and thought the amount of pressure was dumb but was still being polite. If I was convinced otherwise I would have said as much, I was never convinced.

[Golden]

OK, its time I need to make a vote, so:

vote insertnamehere

If Eloh is lynched, so be it. The most persuasive reason I have against is she is an attractive vig target, and based on the flavour text around the Wilgy death I can see there being a vig in the game, so I'm willing to give that a chance to happen instead of wasting a lynch on someone who has no content to read.

INH, on the other hand, I'm used to him having strong views and declaring them, and I'm not seeing that. What's more, I don't feel as though he's engaged with criticisms, or where he has he's been simply dismissive, and I don't like the feel it gives me.

[Quin]

I admit to an extent my skepticism of 3J might just be that I'm forming this expectation in my head for what his baddie game should be like. I've gone after him twice in a game where we were both civilians for what's probably the same reason.

[Dyslexicon]

Also, I want to say that iirc I found it pretty easy to read Marmot as town that one game I played here. And this game I'm certainly not getting the same feeling. I know he's busy with multiple games, and while that is a fair excuse for not being as active, it doesn't make him town. He's still one of my top suspicions and I want to have a cup of tea with him and talk about life.

Speed still has good tone, but I can't shake the unsettling feeling that his erring in his read on me is scummy. It read like not stopping a potential mislynch, while staying clean of it himself. Arguing that my slip was not for real is simply too easy to do.

Also, the post that pinged me EOD:

sig is starting to feel like a runaway wagon.

On the one hand, duh, there's an hour left in the day and people want to commit.

On the other hand, yay, stuff to analyze tomorrow morning!

NO DOWNSIDES, LET'S RUN WITH IT YEAH

Looking at it now, it doesn't look as bad to me, as it's in response to something. But the "we should analyse this tomorrow" thing I've seen more from scum than town. But then, I think I disagree with myself a bit, since Speed was also on this wagon. So *makes farting noises*
I originally remembered this as him saying "It will be interesting to analyze this wagon tomorrow" - which would look much worse.

[Fredwood]

I could have sworn I quoted Quin's quote pyramid in my last post

[Dyslexicon]

Sometimes I feel that Golden acts like I'm confirmed town.

Not sure exactly what you're seeing or how you mean this, but I tend to act like everyone is town. Even when I suspect someone on one hand, I don't want to ignore their perspective on things on the other, in case I'm wrong. I think I'm much better at figuring out who is town than who is bad, so this also aids my hunting approach.

It's not for how you interact with me (actually thinking about it, I don't think we've interacted much? Hi.), but more so in your analysis of votes and wagons and how people are treating me, it seems like you assume that I'm town. Both with the reactions to my fakeslip and in regards to the wagon on me. I don't know what this means, it's just a feeling I had and I wrote it out.

[Quin]

I could have sworn I quoted Quin's quote pyramid in my last post

I read it. Your responses just aren't doing it for me. I'll see how your approach other stuff over the rest of the day before I decide if I want to settle my vote on you.

[Quin]

Anyway, I've spent 5 hours in this game and my champs game has been neglected for long enough. Time to stop.

[Silver Lantern]

Silver stikes me as more town. The one thing that throws me off is that he will have this stubborn and aggressive discussion with someone (in which I often disagree with his logic, even if I can see where he is coming from), and then suddenly he will switch gears and just go "Alright, that makes sense now. I can see what you are saying". And it's a completely different energy. He did it with me D1 and he did it with Sloonei this day. Is this normal for Silver?

I know you're not asking me, but I would say, no, it's not usual for me. I usually I get blinders on and just keep on arguing to my detriment. I almost did it with Soneji D1, who btw, has been inconspicuously missing today.

I am trying to elevate my game fwiw, and part of that is being more reasonable than I tend to be on my homesite. Besides, everyone here is pretty advanced so they're pretty decent at making arguments in their defense.

But to really answer your question, I stopped arguing because the other person's posts and points became logical to me in the points they were making. By contrast I didn't really get that vibe from INH's response to my ISO. Just felt like more fluff to try to counter my calling out his fluff. :/

[Dyslexicon]

I find that I have disagreed with a lot of the reasons for Quin's suspicions, but I'm still inclined to read them as town. Is this weird?

If I were to go on a limb, which I will, I'd say town:
Nut, Silver, Fred, JJJ, Golden, Quin and Scotty (very gut on the last one).

I did have town feels of JOH and Straw, but I feel these should be up for reviewing after this day (mostly by virtue of second hand info).

Would vote Marmot, INH and LC atm. Eloh, sure, but can be vigged. If she's town, another lurker lynch would suck.

Lynch INH

Wagon wagon.

[Dyslexicon]

Silver stikes me as more town. The one thing that throws me off is that he will have this stubborn and aggressive discussion with someone (in which I often disagree with his logic, even if I can see where he is coming from), and then suddenly he will switch gears and just go "Alright, that makes sense now. I can see what you are saying". And it's a completely different energy. He did it with me D1 and he did it with Sloonei this day. Is this normal for Silver?

I know you're not asking me, but I would say, no, it's not usual for me. I usually I get blinders on and just keep on arguing to my detriment. I almost did it with Soneji D1, who btw, has been inconspicuously missing today.

I am trying to elevate my game fwiw, and part of that is being more reasonable than I tend to be on my homesite. Besides, everyone here is pretty advanced so they're pretty decent at making arguments in their defense.

But to really answer your question, I stopped arguing because the other person's posts and points became logical to me in the points they were making. By contrast I didn't really get that vibe from INH's response to my ISO. Just felt like more fluff to try to counter my calling out his fluff. :/

Alright. This makes sense. And if you're town, as I suspect, I think it's very positive that you're trying to consider the arguments carefully without going too tunnel mode, while at the same time applying pressure where you feel it's due.

[Dyslexicon]

Oh, and happy birthday, LC!

[Fredwood]

Silver stikes me as more town. The one thing that throws me off is that he will have this stubborn and aggressive discussion with someone (in which I often disagree with his logic, even if I can see where he is coming from), and then suddenly he will switch gears and just go "Alright, that makes sense now. I can see what you are saying". And it's a completely different energy. He did it with me D1 and he did it with Sloonei this day. Is this normal for Silver?
@Fred @JOH?

I feel Sloonei comes across as more town than not.

Silver's way of probing for a reaction to get information. It's like if you're negotiating and you open strong to disguise your true expectations, so if someone meets your expectations there's no reason to continue strong. So if he's saying you're "orange" he probably only thinks you're yellow, so the resolution is probably a bit jarring because you were expecting to defend yourself harder. Just watch out if he decides to Roleplay, then everyone is in trouble.

[Marmot]

How does going against the grain make a player genuine?

It doesn't always. It depends upon the person and the circumstance. Sloonei had some concerns about Golden that he wanted to voice, and he did so without concern for standing opposite the general consensus about Golden otherwise -- it's not a lynch he is likely going to be able to generate on Day 2, which means there's little room for opportunism. The more likely reality is that he really is concerned, which would be a good thing. I also don't think it's likely he was deliberately pursuing a read like this one either.

Touche

Where the hell is LC?

Fred, Nut, what do you think of LC right now?

And Speed.

Asking what I think of LC, or what Fred and Nut think of me?

LC is looking better. His absence today is accounted for, and he has some towny posts to his name. An ISO might prove otherwise, but I'm at light town on him, where I was once light scum.

This is mafia, the game where everything is made up and the points don't matter.

Why are you keeping score at home? Do you have a leaderboard where you add and subtract points from players base on baddie and civvie posts?

Marmot looked bad to me early, then benefited from going after Dizzy a bit while I was semi tunneling (and semi devils advocating) on Dizzy. In hindsight, it doesn't look great. Like in Unfortunate Events, I'm seeing some chaos and messing but not a ton of hunting. Scum?

How did I benefit from going after Dizzy?

People often mafia while drunk here.

I'm generally pretty carefree with my posts, but WOW that seems like a terrible idea
To be fair, I've never had any alcohol in my system.

Thanks for the heads up there, though.

goin thru some ol' posts? that's cool...

Is magic bagging common here? (being like "Have info" or "have power role" and stuff)

What's the problem?

There are two rules to mafiaing while drfunk.

• 1) Having two drinks (shot of liquor, glass of wine, pint of beer, etc.) constitutes being drunk. User alcohol tolerance is a factor.
  2) If a player is "drunk", that player is forbidden from using the backspace key.

Welcome to Drfunk mafia!

[Golden]

Sometimes I feel that Golden acts like I'm confirmed town.

Not sure exactly what you're seeing or how you mean this, but I tend to act like everyone is town. Even when I suspect someone on one hand, I don't want to ignore their perspective on things on the other, in case I'm wrong. I think I'm much better at figuring out who is town than who is bad, so this also aids my hunting approach.

It's not for how you interact with me (actually thinking about it, I don't think we've interacted much? Hi.), but more so in your analysis of votes and wagons and how people are treating me, it seems like you assume that I'm town. Both with the reactions to my fakeslip and in regards to the wagon on me. I don't know what this means, it's just a feeling I had and I wrote it out.

Fair enough. From my perspective, it's not that you're town, it's just that the fakeslip is terrible logic for why you are bad (as became clear when you explained it and shared the link), and I don't have a lot of patience with the ongoing suspicion of the slip after that point when it seems patently incorrect to me.

Having said that, I do town read you, and I am in the habit of defending people and acting high and mighty, which is probably not the most flattering side of my personality.

[Fredwood]

Silver stikes me as more town. The one thing that throws me off is that he will have this stubborn and aggressive discussion with someone (in which I often disagree with his logic, even if I can see where he is coming from), and then suddenly he will switch gears and just go "Alright, that makes sense now. I can see what you are saying". And it's a completely different energy. He did it with me D1 and he did it with Sloonei this day. Is this normal for Silver?

I know you're not asking me, but I would say, no, it's not usual for me. I usually I get blinders on and just keep on arguing to my detriment. I almost did it with Soneji D1, who btw, has been inconspicuously missing today.

I am trying to elevate my game fwiw, and part of that is being more reasonable than I tend to be on my homesite. Besides, everyone here is pretty advanced so they're pretty decent at making arguments in their defense.

But to really answer your question, I stopped arguing because the other person's posts and points became logical to me in the points they were making. By contrast I didn't really get that vibe from INH's response to my ISO. Just felt like more fluff to try to counter my calling out his fluff. :/

Lol, see I've got in arguments with you where I got the same feeling that I think Dizzy was getting, oh brother, then it get's dropped rather easily and I'm left a bit confused. I don't really think we've ever been in a tunnel vision war because I 'think' I'm a diffuser, so contrary to current evidence, I don't meet strength with strength usually, so I usually just assumed that some of it was bluster.

[Marmot]

Jay said this, but remembered about Monkey Island later. I'll put the tinfoil away for once and say that I don't believe he was lying about misremembering. With that in mind, I don't think 3J would support a kill on who he considered a visitor. It's a nice look.

Agreed.

I want to be devil's advocate and say he's making up a reason he wouldn't kill Nacho when he'd really have no problem doing it but...I believe he wanted to play with Nacho, perhaps more than I believe he misremembered the game.

I guess I need to look at the flavor again. I wasn't pinpointing Nacho as for sure mafia killed, though from a threat perspective, he'd be a better target than Wigly, who was a lynch candidate and was not scumhunting.

Still not really certain of the Syndicate kill meta (though I get that it differs from player to player). Could anyone walk me through kill target discussions/ choices in recent mafia games? Why did you kill who you did, especially on Day 1-3?[/quote]

Nightkill analysis isn't a common strategy here. But that's mainly because nightkilled targets are janitored.

Is it a thing where you come from?

[Dyslexicon]

A wild Marmot appeared!

@MM, I'm suspicious of you. How caught up are you?

[Marmot]

Also, I want to say that iirc I found it pretty easy to read Marmot as town that one game I played here. And this game I'm certainly not getting the same feeling. I know he's busy with multiple games, and while that is a fair excuse for not being as active, it doesn't make him town. He's still one of my top suspicions and I want to have a cup of tea with him and talk about life.

I'm having a beer at the moment (surprise surprise), and I'm busy.

Hi! How're you doing? What did you want to talk about?

[Dyslexicon]

@Fred, Roger that. Silver is probably town, it's just this one thing confused me a bit.

@Golden, Alright. Well, I don't know how much AI I can read out from this, but you are charming and have a very flattering personality anyway.


Also, because the image did not work and I had a sad about it, another attempt at me reacting to NK analysis:

[Marmot]

EBWOP:

Jay said this, but remembered about Monkey Island later. I'll put the tinfoil away for once and say that I don't believe he was lying about misremembering. With that in mind, I don't think 3J would support a kill on who he considered a visitor. It's a nice look.

Agreed.

I want to be devil's advocate and say he's making up a reason he wouldn't kill Nacho when he'd really have no problem doing it but...I believe he wanted to play with Nacho, perhaps more than I believe he misremembered the game.

I guess I need to look at the flavor again. I wasn't pinpointing Nacho as for sure mafia killed, though from a threat perspective, he'd be a better target than Wigly, who was a lynch candidate and was not scumhunting.

Still not really certain of the Syndicate kill meta (though I get that it differs from player to player). Could anyone walk me through kill target discussions/ choices in recent mafia games? Why did you kill who you did, especially on Day 1-3?

Nightkill analysis isn't a common strategy here. But that's mainly because nightkilled targets are janitored.

Is it a thing where you come from?

[Dyslexicon]

Also, I want to say that iirc I found it pretty easy to read Marmot as town that one game I played here. And this game I'm certainly not getting the same feeling. I know he's busy with multiple games, and while that is a fair excuse for not being as active, it doesn't make him town. He's still one of my top suspicions and I want to have a cup of tea with him and talk about life.

I'm having a beer at the moment (surprise surprise), and I'm busy.

Hi! How're you doing? What did you want to talk about?

Anything game related. I also want a beer though, but I had the last one I had in my fridge last night.

I'm wondering if you're caught up, because I had questions and stuff and I wondered if you had seen them?

[Marmot]

I have a question for you. Why do you call me Marmot?

What are your questions for me?

[Dyslexicon]

Oh! I think it was Speed who mentioned liking the idea of janitoring roles? (Please correct me if it was someone else). This may be tinfoil, but I found it suspicious, because I totally hate it when janitoring happens. As town, I'm most bothered by not knowing the role of someone who's flipped (although now it's possible Sir Wilgy the Good is not dead after all?). Anyway, the approach of "this is a fun mechanic" is not exactly the reaction I expect from town being denied information. But, I'm me, so I don't know if this is just a me-thought.

[Marmot]

Actually, I know a few players here that I do feel comfortable suspecting or ruling out based on nightkill targes.

However, the only such player I know of is me, and I'm not eligible at the moment.

Linki: I'm used to not knowing who the nightkilled player was when they're killed. That's the norm here.

It's esepecially difficult when there are multiple mafia teams.

I can see why you hate such a concept, but we Syndicaters live on that mechanic, and that sort of mechanic is balanced out by stronger and more common civlian roles.

[Dyslexicon]

I have a question for you. Why do you call me Marmot?

What are your questions for me?

Someone called you Marmot or refered to you as such, and apparently I like it better than MM.

Mainly points in this post:

Spoiler: show

Thank you, JJJ, for the Tab trick!

@JJJ - What Fred said.

@Whoever brought it up - The reason for me thinking JJJ/Nut not teamed is that JJJ gave a very heavy town read on Nut early on. I would not expect a scum to do this to a rather low poster teammate.

---

I'm sure I had other things I wanted to comment on. Don't know when day ends, so going to throw out some cold reads:

Townish:
Nut, Straw, Fred

Slight town:
Silver, Quin. Golden, Jack

On the townier side of null:
Soneji, Scotty, Wilgy

Null:
Nacho

On the scummier side of null or sligh scum:
Sig, Dfray, JJJ

Scummish/suspects:
Marmot, INH, Speed, LC

---

Raisins:
Marmot: Ok, so nobody ever talks about Marmot/MM. Which I find suspicious in itself, but that's not his fault. Anyway, I don't like this progression:

That... is actually a pretty accurate description of how I like to play.

^In response to me talking about my playstyle.

That being said, your slip, it looked like an accident. You assert that it was not an accident, but a fakeslip. You then introduced some reads after the fact. Nacho made a good point that you didn't factor the 'fakeslip' into your reads. I think (without looking at your link to your other game) it was an accident.

^In the same post - how can he legitly think it was still a real slip? Also pointing to Nacho to support that I didn't factor in the fakeslip into my reads instead of going to my post. I factor everything into my reads, who's anyone else to say what I'm basing my reads on. I specifically based my Marmot vote on it in fact. Also, he doesn't need to look at the link to know what's in it as it has been discussed a lot. He's completely disregarding a lot of info, so this just reads like he's not interested in actually figuring out my alignment. Which is not a town mindset.

Why do dizzy's posts after his slip make me feel so good? Should I reconsider?

This I also dislike. Also, "reconsider" from what? He wasn't voting me at this time.

---

INH, I honestly don't have a case on. Just seems to be on the sidelines a lot and I find that's how scum feels like a lot of the time. Should check his posts at some point.

---

Speed, I posted my suspicions of here:

@Speed, I want you to explain your read on me. You're tip-toeing around it. You comment a lot on logic, strategy and meta discussions, but you don't give very much in terms of reads. You've stated several times that I'm null-ish to you and that I'm nok exactly looking good and that it's understanable that players want to lynch me etc. But at the same time you're arguing against what these players are saying. So in your own words, what is your read on me and why?

I'm very suspicious of you.

I do think his tone is good, but he talks mostly about things around the game, and doesn't really go far to develop reads afaic.

---

LC, I'm a bit unsure on. But the jump on me made little sense. And then the backing off didn't make me feel good either. Seemed like thinking I could be mislynch, and then doubting I could be so moving off before needing to expand. Should probably look up posts here too.

Maybe it's not in the form of direct questions, but would want you to address the points/queries regarding you.

[Marmot]

That said, I don't get why one kill was revealed and one was not. I can only assume it has something to do with one of the many rules spritoy has in play.

-this game is a clusterfuck

[Dyslexicon]

Janitoring all flips I find to be an extremely foreign concept, and I likely would not sign up for such a game personally. I'm familiar with a janitor role, but have only seen it as an X-shot ability, and quite a rare one. It makes me all

But this might be a kidnapping role, which may just make a player disappear for a day or something?

All in all:

[Marmot]

Responses in marmalade.

I have a question for you. Why do you call me Marmot?

What are your questions for me?

Someone called you Marmot or refered to you as such, and apparently I like it better than MM.

Mainly points in this post:

Spoiler: show

Thank you, JJJ, for the Tab trick!

@JJJ - What Fred said.

@Whoever brought it up - The reason for me thinking JJJ/Nut not teamed is that JJJ gave a very heavy town read on Nut early on. I would not expect a scum to do this to a rather low poster teammate.

---

I'm sure I had other things I wanted to comment on. Don't know when day ends, so going to throw out some cold reads:

Townish:
Nut, Straw, Fred

Slight town:
Silver, Quin. Golden, Jack

On the townier side of null:
Soneji, Scotty, Wilgy

Null:
Nacho

On the scummier side of null or sligh scum:
Sig, Dfray, JJJ

Scummish/suspects:
Marmot, INH, Speed, LC

---

Raisins:
Marmot: Ok, so nobody ever talks about Marmot/MM. Which I find suspicious in itself, but that's not his fault. Anyway, I don't like this progression:

That... is actually a pretty accurate description of how I like to play.

^In response to me talking about my playstyle.

That being said, your slip, it looked like an accident. You assert that it was not an accident, but a fakeslip. You then introduced some reads after the fact. Nacho made a good point that you didn't factor the 'fakeslip' into your reads. I think (without looking at your link to your other game) it was an accident.

^In the same post - how can he legitly think it was still a real slip? Also pointing to Nacho to support that I didn't factor in the fakeslip into my reads instead of going to my post. I factor everything into my reads, who's anyone else to say what I'm basing my reads on. I specifically based my Marmot vote on it in fact. Also, he doesn't need to look at the link to know what's in it as it has been discussed a lot. He's completely disregarding a lot of info, so this just reads like he's not interested in actually figuring out my alignment. Which is not a town mindset.

I'm not really interested in reading another game at the moment no. I'd rather let other players who have the time and effort do that.

My main qualm with you is your first post after the slip. It did not seem like a fake, it seemed like an oopsie.

Why do dizzy's posts after his slip make me feel so good? Should I reconsider?

This I also dislike. Also, "reconsider" from what? He wasn't voting me at this time.

My ability to participate this game is unfortunately limited to lengthy intervals of inactivity (by my standards) and extended catchups. If I happen to change mindsets in a single post, I don't really care. I'm posting what I think about a particular post I read, with no regard to what I've said before. It's my way of playing the game realtime.

---

INH, I honestly don't have a case on. Just seems to be on the sidelines a lot and I find that's how scum feels like a lot of the time. Should check his posts at some point.

---

Speed, I posted my suspicions of here:

@Speed, I want you to explain your read on me. You're tip-toeing around it. You comment a lot on logic, strategy and meta discussions, but you don't give very much in terms of reads. You've stated several times that I'm null-ish to you and that I'm nok exactly looking good and that it's understanable that players want to lynch me etc. But at the same time you're arguing against what these players are saying. So in your own words, what is your read on me and why?

I'm very suspicious of you.

I do think his tone is good, but he talks mostly about things around the game, and doesn't really go far to develop reads afaic.

---

LC, I'm a bit unsure on. But the jump on me made little sense. And then the backing off didn't make me feel good either. Seemed like thinking I could be mislynch, and then doubting I could be so moving off before needing to expand. Should probably look up posts here too.

Maybe it's not in the form of direct questions, but would want you to address the points/queries regarding you.

[Golden]

Responses in marmalade.

how can you be so glib about murder!



Hang on, marmalade is made of marmots, right?

[Marmot]

Janitoring all flips I find to be an extremely foreign concept, and I likely would not sign up for such a game personally. I'm familiar with a janitor role, but have only seen it as an X-shot ability, and quite a rare one. It makes me all

But this might be a kidnapping role, which may just make a player disappear for a day or something?

All in all:

I get what you're saying. Janitored nightkills! No info-dumping! No role-outing! How can the civilians even win?

It's done through other methods. We may be blind, but our sense of smell and hearing are significantly improved, if you get my drift.



I'm not saying we're better mafia players by any means, just we're different. We'd be as much out of place in your environment (as I feel here in this game) as you would in one of our "Syndicate-style" games. I've watched a couple Synicate players play shitty games in foreign environments. Each culture is different and difficult to adjust to imo.

Linki: I think marmalade is a fruit, in addition to a color.

[Marmot]

Actually, we're certainly not better. I've sucked at every other site I've played at aside from RYM, but that mafia community is defunct.

[Dyslexicon]

@Marmot - Do you still think it was a legit slip? In which case, you should be voting me I guess? That theory is pretty much totally out of the question and I would've expected you to gain info about that also without looking at the other game. It's also not a matter of reading an entire game, it's one post in that game.

The other thing, alrlight *shrug*
Do you have more reads in this game? I know you're busy, but it would be very helpful to know where your head is at.

[Marmot]

@Marmot - Do you still think it was a legit slip? In which case, you should be voting me I guess? That theory is pretty much totally out of the question and I would've expected you to gain info about that also without looking at the other game. It's also not a matter of reading an entire game, it's one post in that game.

The other thing, alrlight *shrug*
Do you have more reads in this game? I know you're busy, but it would be very helpful to know where your head is at.

I dislike DrWilgy because he was a relative inactive Day 1.

I have no read on Elohcin, because there's just no content to judge. I will add a meta caveat, she tends to get more invested in a game when she is mafia. The most invested I've ever seen her was in Series of Unfortunate Events, in which we were mafia teammates.

From the more active participants, I like Golden. I also like Fredwood. I like your posts except for that one post. But I'm going to choose to read you as civilian for now. Nutella I also like.

I don't have much of an impression on the other players.