Phenon Mafia: ENDGAME - Snuffed

[speedchuck]

Haven't read, but here are my overnight thoughts:

Wouldn't put too much stock in the votals. People were avoiding voting/switching in places to make sure a lynch wasn't reached.

Long Con does not look better. That gun that Sloonei used looks like what Soneji may have offered. How would LC know where the gun is? He might be ON THE SAME SCUMTEAM. This accounts for JJJ's tracking result, the origin of the gun, and the confidence in the claim. It does not account for the Corrupted Jury or Golden's item. I think this is enough. Vote Long Con

Quin is looking better. Now that Jack has been revealed as a unmarker-protective sort, and Juliets simply said that there was another protector active night two somewhere (not that she was that doctor), it's very possible in my estimation that Quin is town. The protective roles set feels less bloated.

Also, Juliets: Could the protection you ran across be a vest in any way?

KILLERS
Silver Lantern - TOWN Janitor
sig - TOWN Leeroy

INFOROLES
Nutella - TOWN 1-shot Day public cop
Nachomamma - TOWN Scientist

JJJ - TOWN 3-shot Tracker
Golden - Every-day Watcher

REDIRECTORS
MetalMarsh89 - SCUM Busdriver
MP - CLAIMED (NEAR-CONFIRMED) TOWN Busdriver, validating Golden's Watcher claim (But not Golden's town claim)

PROTECTORS
Quin - CLAIMED Odd-Night Doc
JackofHearts - TOWN Unmarker
Sloonei - CLAIMED Bodyguard
Dyslexicon - CLAIMED Protective

juliets - ??? (Claimed that a non-quin doctor-ish role exists [Maybe dizzy?])

???
Fredwood - ???
Strawhenge - ???
Speedchuck - ???
DrWilgy - TOWN ???
Scotty - Stump

ITEM-ROLES
Soneji - Mafia Gun Giver
LongCon - Claimed Inventor? Gun-Giver?

DIVINE 3P
insertnamehere - 3rd Party Angel

Marker is in ??? or in claimed protectives

[Quin]

I see your vote speedchuck, and I raise you one.

If not lynching, putting some pressure on him is a good idea.

Vote Long Con


I'll be back tonight to get back in it.

[Quin]

Did you make a mistake when you said Night 2, chuck? The conflict is based on odd night protections there.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Interaction of Soneji and Golden

Soneji stuff

There's a pretty neutral little question/prod in this huge post.

Spoiler: show

The silly argument is that saying the amount of towncred that might be achievable with what Dys pulled is worth the high possibility of getting lynched, especially when hammer rules are in play.

I haven't seen a single person give actual town cred to Dys. Several people are still voting for Dys based on it and others like myself and Golden have outright stated that Dys should not get towncred.

Silly arguments are not exactly mafia motivated arguments though, which is why I'm not voting you. What I don't understand is that if you are so convinced of the probability of a mafia Dys posting a fake slip to gain town cred, why aren't you voting Dys?

Tacks himself alongside Golden in the quest to keep shitting on Dizzy for the slip nonsense.

Spoiler: show

@Jay in regards to the sig lynch: I would say Syndicate regulars with their familiarity with sig mislynches come off looking the worst in general, yourself and Golden in particular as starters of that wagon. I can't really agree that "Are there any good reasons not to lynch sig" is a good approach, "Are there any good reasons we should lynch sig over Wilgy, Sorcha, Dfaraday, Eloh" would be a considerably better one.

@Sloonei on Golden : I would say that talking about ones scum meta as a response to suspicion is generally something mafia do more than town. Especially when one is touting themselves as too careful/skilled to scumslip in certain ways, it's a method of intimidation. Golden going into his scum meta there just felt straight unnecessary.

Later Golden gives his opinion on whose more likely to have killed Nacho then dismisses that info as something he doesn't believe as worthwhile. Why even remark on it if you don't think it is a viable method of scumhunting? Since he agreed with both Jay and Jack on their NK analysis, then dismissed the info as useful, it comes off as buddying mixed with fence-sitting.

Still reading up on phone.

More clearly critical of Golden here. Something to follow.

Spoiler: show

So I've been both busy IRL and with running my own game on NF, disheartened with how far behind I've become in this game. I have tried just reading the last couple pages and looking into my suspects from before, along with vote counts from the first two lynches. The thing that stood out to me most while going through all this was that Fredwood didn't have a vote listed for D1 or D2 in the final vote counts, so I looked through his post history to see if he had just unvoted...he hasn't put down a single vote this entire game so far. CTLR+F turned up the word vote quite a number of times from him but it was in regards to basing reads of his on how other people voted or giving reasons why he didn't vote sig or Dys. He said in one of D1 posts that he doesn't like to rush votes but this is just straight not moving from the starting line.

[VOTE: ] aubergine[VOTE:


I saw Nutella cleared JJJ, though I'm not sure I exactly trust that. Nutella had been being buddy-buddy with JJJ early on and I don't care for JJJ's vote history.

juliet's said something about how Scotty here reminded her of herself in GoC when she mislynched me. I checked that game to see if she was still alive and at least according to the player list she hasn't died yet, so it pings me that she is using her unconfirmed alignment there to townread someone here.

Need to see more into Golden with the time I have. I read Sloonei's JoH case but it didn't really register bad with me, maybe due to it hinging on being more caught up with the thread.] aubergine

[VOTE:

"'Need to see more into Golden with the time I have', but meanwhile let me vote for Fredwood based on some made up bullshit." The fact that Soneji even felt the urge to say this at the end of this post about a guy he'd already spoken of a decent amount (Golden) isn't a great look.] aubergine

Spoiler: show

[VOTE: hey soneji why shouldn't I shoot you?] aubergine

[VOTE:
Because I'm town.] aubergine

[VOTE:
Who does town soneji propose I shoot instead? Who did you vote for on Night 2?] aubergine

[VOTE:
I voted for you N2.

I would be inclined to say Fredwood but no one shares said suspicion. Shoot Golden.] aubergine

[VOTE:

He recommended Sloonei shoot Golden, which makes for a nice WIFOM burger. I think it should be stated that Golden was never a terribly likely recipient of that bullet even if Sloonei verbally floated the idea.

Kind of supporting Sloonei's suspicion of Golden on Day 4.] aubergine

Spoiler: show

[VOTE: Dizzy, Fred, juliets, Sloonei, Soneji, speedchuck

Can you answer this?] aubergine

[VOTE: I would like to know what people's reads are on Golden as of this point.] aubergine

[VOTE:
Scum read.

[VOTE: ] aubergine[VOTE:

Back to reading ] aubergine] aubergine

[VOTE: [VOTE:

Here's the vote. It doesn't inspire me.] aubergine] aubergine

Spoiler: show

[VOTE: [VOTE: juliets, are you more concerned with the likelihood of two town doctors pointing to Quin being scum or Golden not watching obvious mafia kill targets?] aubergine] aubergine

[VOTE: [VOTE:

I might hate this post for Golden. Soneji is talking to juliets here, a player who was clearly more perturbed by Quin's roleclaim than anyone else. Her answer to this question was already known, and that Soneji even drew up this dichotomy specifically is a pretty terrible look. This looks like textbook distancing.] aubergine] aubergine

Spoiler: show

[VOTE: [VOTE: @speed - what bothers you mechanically about my claim?] aubergine] aubergine

[VOTE: [VOTE:
Watching every night.

Pretty much every other town role has been limited in some way. For you to claim just watcher (which came up before the trend of limited power was fully apparent) gives me balance issues that I discussed earlier with JJJ. I am sure that you are a watcher, but I'm worried that it might be a mafia watcher because of the power imbalance. Call it paranoia, as I'm still relying on my read over mech stuff.] aubergine] aubergine

[VOTE: [VOTE:
JJJ is a three-shot tracker. Golden being an unlimited town Watcher would be nearly impossible with that kind of balance, as Watchers>>>Trackers. A Watcher can catch multiple people targeting someone and only has to aim for suspected targets of the NK, while a tracker not only has to have a correct mafia read but also hope that that mafia is making the faction kill that night.] aubergine] aubergine

[VOTE: [VOTE:

Suddenly Golden's role claim is "impossible" for balance.

Golden stuff] aubergine] aubergine

Spoiler: show

[VOTE: [VOTE: Some notes:

I'm not going to vote for any of the syndicate first timers out of principle. This is RM culture and I believe strongly in it. Besides common courtesy, it's an acknowledgement that there's no basis on which I can rely on reads based on such little exposure to you.

I'm also not going to vote for Jay, despite the fact he's been my only real active suspicion today. This is kind of an arsey elitist thing to say, but I think he's of a lot of value to the town if I'm wrong about him, for a couple of reasons. I'd rather wait a day or two and see how things develop.

Quin, Marmot, Dizzy, Nacho and Jack all look fine to me, so I won't be voting them today.

That leaves a pool for me to think about and analyse of: inh, sig, soneji, long con, wilgy, sorsha, nutella, scotty, eloh, df, strawhenge. I'll look into as many of these as I can in the time I have.] aubergine] aubergine

[VOTE: [VOTE:

Player salad at the end with Soneji included. Also, not relevant to Soneji, the highlighted portion looks bogus. I don't think a civilian Golden gives a shit about my potential "value" if he thinks I am bad. I've actually felt that way all game.

Non-read in the yellow pile in Golden's rainbow

No meaningful movement in the Day 4 rainbow] aubergine] aubergine

[VOTE: [VOTE: Now Soneji says shoot me. I'm target de jour.

I have a lot of work to get done today so I'm not going to be around to defend myself a whole lot.

Right now, I'd vote Jack. He already went down my rainbow for his approach to Quin at the start of the day. It seemed evident to me that there was a whole lot of inherent town-leaning stuff going on from Quin (and also, evident to me that Quin was hinting at doctor before he claimed, given he confirmed there was a blocker), but Jack pushed him far further than seemed natural even for someone who was suspicious of him (Jay's approach seemed much more in line with genuine suspicion tempered with sensible town play if wrong).

Now, his approach to me appears to be clinging on to the suspect du jour, but he's coming at me with alternate facts.

I don't like it at all.] aubergine] aubergine

[VOTE: [VOTE:

"Soneji wants to shoot the target de jour. That's all I have to say about him."

"Jack wants to lynch the target de jour, and I find it suspicious alongside other stuff. Here's why."

Yikes.] aubergine] aubergine

Spoiler: show

[VOTE: [VOTE: Soneji - apparently you don't know the difference between lying and the truth. I'm prone to slip because I don't lie often, not in spite of it.] aubergine] aubergine

[VOTE: [VOTE:

Neutral, explanatory dialogue. Meh.] aubergine] aubergine

Spoiler: show

[VOTE: [VOTE: Golden is now firmly in the greenish area of the spectrum for me. That scummy gut-read passed like a bit of overdone potato. I'm curious about your continuing case against me. I can't promise promptness with my answers, but I can answer questions if you have them.] aubergine] aubergine

[VOTE: [VOTE:

I'm also curious about it. It's gut feeling, and for me it's definitely more a case of wanting to find time to explore your post history and feeling like you are a bit of an enigma in this game than already knowing why I feel this way. Same thing with Soneji.] aubergine] aubergine

[VOTE: [VOTE:

Golden called Strawhenge an enigma and compared him to Soneji in that regard. Golden's perspective of Strawhenge was stated prior though and was more easy to follow. That can't be said of his stance on Soneji, which never truly developed into a stance. The closest he came was approving my shortlist of 4 suspects including Soneji.] aubergine] aubergine

Spoiler: show

[VOTE: [VOTE: Ugh, another unexpected meeting

I see a bandwagon has formed on LC. I don't think that's the right way to go.

I'll vote for soneji over LC if that's what it's coming down too. Has everyone but me moved away from Quin? Will have to look and see what others have said about our engagement earlier. I really don't like it one bit.] aubergine] aubergine

[VOTE: [VOTE:

EOD4 arrives, Golden wants to lynch Quin. He'll vote Soneji over LC if necessary.] aubergine] aubergine

Spoiler: show

[VOTE: [VOTE: I'm feeling very ok with either soneji or quin lynches, but I'll stick my vote where it is in any event because it helps me stay sane and avoid hammer shenanigans.] aubergine] aubergine

[VOTE: [VOTE:

"Helps me stay sane" sounds like a fake excuse to keep his vote away from Soneji. Civilian Golden has never struggled with the chaos of EOD.] aubergine] aubergine

Spoiler: show

[VOTE: [VOTE: soneji is the right call.] aubergine] aubergine

[VOTE: [VOTE:

After the hammer fell, before the lynch post. He wanted Quin, he voted Quin, he didn't get Quin, he called Soneji "the right call".

~~~

Conclusion

Golden looks bad.] aubergine] aubergine

[speedchuck]

Did you make a mistake when you said Night 2, chuck? The conflict is based on odd night protections there.

Yep!

It was night 3.

[speedchuck]

Note to people looking at Juliets/Quin:

Juliats chaimed that another doc role exists. I have no idea how she knows this, but I've seen ample evidence in the way she words things that it might not be here.

ALSO

Having a doc role activate on the same night as quin does not make both roles even night. See: JJJ's tracker role.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Interaction of Soneji and Long Con

Soneji stuff

Soneji said nothing about Long Con at all that I can find until Day 4, when he asserted that Long Con's sassy gif was sirengif-worthy. Okay.

Accuses Long Con of fishing at the end of this large post.

Spoiler: show

What's the tally looking like? I might be coming back around on believing with all my heart that Long Con is bad.

Lots of people think Quin and I are bad. Around 4 each I think at this point.

Is Long Con your teammate?

I don't know LC's alignment, only my own. I would be inclined to vote for him over Quin, as he has pinged me several times to Quin's zero.

"Long Con has pinged me several times, but I didn't utter his name until Day 4 when both of us were deep in the shit."

Not ideal.

Spoiler: show

[VOTE: ] aubergine

[VOTE:

Here's a vote on the approach to EOD4.

More shade for the sass

Long Con stuff

Civ read on Soneji on Day 1

Dead center in a Day 3 rainbow] aubergine

Spoiler: show

[VOTE: I didn't forget Soneji was playing, but I also have nothing to say about him.

He's like a pomegranate drying out in the sun on a hot day. Could still be good when I rediscover it.

Or it could be...


OMGranate.

] aubergine

[VOTE:
..and this, for instance, is even better than Civ behaviour. Pure hilarity! On the Soneji subject, though, I have trouble remembering much about his opinions. It doesn't help that I mix his name up with Sloonei's half the time.] aubergine

[VOTE:

Inserted some dialogue into the discussion of Soneji without saying anything. Meh.

Dead center in a Day 4 rainbow -- I don't know that Long Con was trying to develop this read. It's very easy to leave the low-posting guy in the neutral pile.] aubergine

Spoiler: show

[VOTE: Sloonei: I recommend you consider directing the crosshairs elsewhere. Soneji or Scotty come to mind.] aubergine

[VOTE:
And if you don't feel like executing Jack, Sloonei, then this looks fine to me. Scotty seems bad sometimes and fine other times, and Soneji... I can't remember much about him so worth a shot.] aubergine

[VOTE:

Epignosis is to excessive adverbs as I am to ominous ellipses.] aubergine

Spoiler: show

[VOTE: What is the difference between Elohcin and Soneji?] aubergine

[VOTE:

lol

Long Con responds to Soneji's shade with nothing but caps lock sarcasm. No interest in reading his accuser, who was by the way on the chopping block alongside LC himself. This looks fake.] aubergine

Spoiler: show

[VOTE: I'm willing to reconsider. I don't have any reads worth a damn. Convince me, LC. Were you instrumental in getting MM lynched?] aubergine

[VOTE:
Yes. Each of the five votes for MM were essential. One missing, and he would have walked.] aubergine

[VOTE:

Why were you specifically instrumental to the case? What did you bring to the table?] aubergine

[VOTE:
Vote Quin

I think Soneji is the easy vote, not the right vote. After Jack's flip (RIP) I have reevaluated Quin. I thought Jack was being disingenuous about him, but it turns out he was probably right.] aubergine

[VOTE:

I might actually like this highlighted declaration had Long Con ever developed his read on Soneji. He didn't. So meh.

~~~

Conclusion

Long Con looks bad.] aubergine

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Note to people looking at Juliets/Quin:

Juliats chaimed that another doc role exists. I have no idea how she knows this, but I've seen ample evidence in the way she words things that it might not be here.

ALSO

Having a doc role activate on the same night as quin does not make both roles even night. See: JJJ's tracker role.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. What does this mean to you regarding your reads on Quin and juliets?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Your faces when only 17 minutes pass between that Golden review and the Long Con review.

GOTTA GO FAST

[speedchuck]

Note to people looking at Juliets/Quin:

Juliats chaimed that another doc role exists. I have no idea how she knows this, but I've seen ample evidence in the way she words things that it might not be here.

ALSO

Having a doc role activate on the same night as quin does not make both roles even night. See: JJJ's tracker role.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. What does this mean to you regarding your reads on Quin and juliets?

Here:

If Golden is bad, what are the odds he is directing us, via map, to locations that may benefit Mafia?

I'm less sure about what is going on with the juliets/Quin dynamic, and if they're both claiming the same role....

Ohhhhhh

What if

Sprityo didn't want us to claim because there are the same roles, but on either team?

Like...Quin is the doctor for the mafia and LC is the gunsmith for the town. And they're both on the nights they say they are..

Just saying: Juliets and Quin are not claiming the same role. Numerous elements point to that.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Interaction of Soneji and speedchuck

Soneji stuff

Neutral chatter of Dizzy's slip

More, giving Silver Lantern crap

A couple positive comments about speedchuck with an idle gripe about his resistance to Fredwood suspicion

Spoiler: show

@speed - what bothers you mechanically about my claim?

Watching every night.

Pretty much every other town role has been limited in some way. For you to claim just watcher (which came up before the trend of limited power was fully apparent) gives me balance issues that I discussed earlier with JJJ. I am sure that you are a watcher, but I'm worried that it might be a mafia watcher because of the power imbalance. Call it paranoia, as I'm still relying on my read over mech stuff.

JJJ is a three-shot tracker. Golden being an unlimited town Watcher would be nearly impossible with that kind of balance, as Watchers>>>Trackers. A Watcher can catch multiple people targeting someone and only has to aim for suspected targets of the NK, while a tracker not only has to have a correct mafia read but also hope that that mafia is making the faction kill that night.

Using speedchuck to springboard his mechanical babble.

Spoiler: show

Soneji has incriminating reactions with the dead scum guy, Marmot. And man, those gut feels.
.

JJJ somehow twisted me responding to INH's map talk to me agreeing with INH on just Golden and JJJ being potentially suspicious, which was based on INH voting MM himself to get the map. Never went anywhere because in that same response I plainly stated that I doubt any location on the map was specifically favorable to one faction.

Responds to speedchuck's late Day 4 suspicion with some irrelevant stuff about INH, Golden, and I.

speedchuck stuff

Spoiler: show

Feeling less shiny about JJJ than before the Golden argument, honestly. Still not enough for a scumread.
I'm not sure whether I'm voting Strawhenge because of his broken logic or me actually thinking he's scum. He's basically fabricated information from a different mafia game to justify his weird suspicions of Dizzy, and I'm not a fan of that.
Dizzy hasn't come off smelling like a rose, but Silver Lantern is hurting my brain with their arguments. Every post that they make with a vote change spins my head like a top.
I like Soneji right now, and I'm okay with Dyslexicon for at least another day (His stunt spurred most of my reads). Anyone else that has a vote on them is someone I wouldn't feel bad about lynching.

Likes Soneji on Day 1. Dunno why.

Spoiler: show

Sorsha claimed they wouldn't read the whole thread, but didn't come when summoned.

You used the wrong incantation, maybe brush up on your Latin

I've asked to be replaced, I can't keep up with one game let alone two. Good luck!

Cool, there is a replacement listed. Best of luck with your other game!

Soneji, I like most of your posts, but I super strongly disagree on your lynch choice, based on my ISO read of him and the meta reads that the people that know him have given.

Still likes Soneji later on Day 1 but not his vote.

A bit of a weird comment here in the middle of a huge Day 2 multi-quote post. I don't know what "it'll pass" meant in this context regarding his read on Soneji. In this post he resisted a Soneji lynch.

Soneji is in the middle area of a reads list which appears to be tiered like a rainbow list. Clarified/confirmed This would seem to represent a bit of a fall for Soneji who had previously been getting positive press from speedchuck.

Soneji is an undefined secondary suspicion on Day 3. I'd like this fall from grace more if I understood how it happened.

Spoiler: show

@Quin

But you need to think I have teammates if you think I'm mafia.

I don't think you think I have teammates. I don't think you think I'm mafia.

That is some rather wack logic. It's like saying that if you don't know the entirety of how a puzzle will be completed, then you can't fit in a single piece of it.

Nah, it's more like:
You're trying to make a five piece puzzle, and you see that (out of your collection of 16 pieces), this one piece doesn't seem to fit any of the rest at all. Probably shouldn't start with that piece.

Of course, I get Quin's side of it as well. He's arguing that this piece does fit a piece that he's confirmed is a part of the puzzle, and that he can't see the rest of the pieces well enough in this dim lighting.

Not buying Soneji's accusation of Jack.

Spoiler: show

Would rather kill Soneji than Strawhenge at the moment. Gut feeling. Probably need to find out why that is.

Preferred a Soneji kill over a Strawhenge kill on Day 4. I'm not sure if Strawhenge was ever a likely target?

Spoiler: show

Either Jack or Soneji.

Narrows Sloonei's shot down to Jack or Soneji. Expands

Spoiler: show

It does not seem that anybody in the game has a town read on Soneji.

Bussing or mafia waiting for a lynch train to start?

I'm not sure I understand this question.

Do you think it's more likely that mafia are throwing their teammate Soneji under a bus since Soneji has provided little value and a lot of suspicion?

Or do you think that Soneji is town, hasn't been around, and mafia are continuing to remind us of how much we suspect them while waiting for us to "cast the first stone", so to speak?

I don't fault speedchuck for asking these questions.

Spoiler: show

Lynch Soneji

I want a link to that legendary-looking game, if you guys have one.

Day 4 vote, well before the EOD madness.

Spoiler: show

Would prefer Soneji lynch to Long Con lynch. Happy where I am. You guys can get the three votes to lynch LC without me.

I don't like how quickly the LC lynch is building at all, but...
I have homework to do right this second. I'll keep up, if dire questions must be asked.

By all means, do join me on Soneji in the next hour and have a beer with me, though. It's a much more fun lynch than Long Con.

Prefers Soneji over Long Con as the lynch and campaigns gleefully for it.

~~~

Conclusion

I don't think speedchuck looks like a shining knight riding upon a great town mare, but he looks alright. I've seen worse.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I want to hear everyone else's thoughts on these interaction analyses. There's a good chance I won't be alive on Day 6 and I want to ensure the most productive possible lynch occurs this phase. That might not be Long Con, because if he's as obvious as he looks then there's no urgency to waste him.

[Quin]

I want to hear everyone else's thoughts on these interaction analyses. There's a good chance I won't be alive on Day 6 and I want to ensure the most productive possible lynch occurs this phase. That might not be Long Con, because if he's as obvious as he looks then there's no urgency to waste him.

I wasn't role blocked on Night 3, which indicates that it was likely a strongman that did nutella in. A strongman is a good counter to the amount of protective roles in the game. If we lynch said strongman today, you'll be good tonight because I'll protect you.

[Quin]

To that end, I intend to look at the responses to my claim again.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Interaction of Soneji and Scotty

Soneji stuff

Spoiler: show

juliet's said something about how Scotty here reminded her of herself in GoC when she mislynched me. I checked that game to see if she was still alive and at least according to the player list she hasn't died yet, so it pings me that she is using her unconfirmed alignment there to townread someone here.

Gives juliets a little crap for her self-meta basis for reading Scotty as town. Probably says more about juliets than Scotty.

Contests Scotty's read on Elohcin. Again, this might say more about Elohcin. He also fended off an earlier Scotty vote for himself.

Spoiler: show

I'm going to

UNVOTE

VOTE Long Con

This is why I think we should stay on soneji.

I don't trust juliets right now

We're awfully close to someone trying a sneak hammer

If you think both Juliets and I are scum, whose exactly going to sneak a hammer that takes three more votes?

Scotty warns of hammers at EOD4 and Soneji offers a meaningless retort.

Scotty stuff

He made a few early game comments about Soneji being one of the standard low-poster targets he likes to focus on.

Spoiler: show

I didn't forget Soneji was playing, but I also have nothing to say about him.

He's like a pomegranate drying out in the sun on a hot day. Could still be good when I rediscover it.

Or it could be...


OMGranate.

The Soneji read is more neutral on Day 3, accompanied by a Scotty Simile®

Spoiler: show

I'm feeling better and better about speedchuck.
Which means my big red suspicions are getting slimmer. I probably need to reasses and get more suspicions.

I suppose I'll look at Straw, Fred and Soneji, since they are a big ?? For me.

Juliets, you seem a bit more reserved this game, actually, than the recent ones I remember. I was chocking that up to you trying to catch up, but I'd love some more reads at some point from you before I feel good about you. On a scale of 1-6 I'd rate you a 4. Or just a bit less than null.

Soneji and 2 others are "big ???s" on Day 4.

Prior to the madness of EOD4, Scotty was down for a lynch of Soneji.

The vote stuck, as did his stance.

~~~

Conclusion

The portion where the Soneji read drifts out of red and toward yellow isn't my favorite thing. Generally though I like more about this than I don't like for Scotty.

[Quin]

Question.

Why am I supposed to vote a maybe-copped person by a player I didn't trust over someone I'd been reading as bad and arguing against the past two days?

Question

Why did you copy my question format?

I thought this was fluff at first. But, no. Now I think this was an accusation.

[Quin]

http://forum.chocolatepi.net/showthread.php?tid=481 Mafia me.

http://forum.chocolatepi.net/showthread.php?tid=720 Town me.

I remember nothing of the town game.

Just saw this, thanks chuck. I'll take a quick look.

I'm pretty proud of that scum game.

Going to bed. I'll answer about my INH vote when I tomorrow wake.

I could speculate that this was an attempt to guarantee himself enough time to think of a good justification for his vote. It's a little bit reminiscent of when Glorfindel kept avoiding 'The Question' in Mad Max.

[Quin]

If I may tinfoil a moment.

What's the possibility that Jack did called me out on participation on purpose to shift off the argument because he essentially was strong-arming a claim out of Quin, when most people understood the underlying context of the conversation you two had.

I guess it's possible that he knew I'd have a negative reaction to his post and would distract long enough for people to forget I guess?

Seems like a leap, but I might as well tinfoil, If just to appease Jack's desperate need of Fred based content.

Can you explain what it was you understood?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Interaction of Soneji and Elohcin / MovingPictures07

Soneji stuff

Spoiler: show

@Jay in regards to the sig lynch: I would say Syndicate regulars with their familiarity with sig mislynches come off looking the worst in general, yourself and Golden in particular as starters of that wagon. I can't really agree that "Are there any good reasons not to lynch sig" is a good approach, "Are there any good reasons we should lynch sig over Wilgy, Sorcha, Dfaraday, Eloh" would be a considerably better one.

@Sloonei on Golden : I would say that talking about ones scum meta as a response to suspicion is generally something mafia do more than town. Especially when one is touting themselves as too careful/skilled to scumslip in certain ways, it's a method of intimidation. Golden going into his scum meta there just felt straight unnecessary.

Later Golden gives his opinion on whose more likely to have killed Nacho then dismisses that info as something he doesn't believe as worthwhile. Why even remark on it if you don't think it is a viable method of scumhunting? Since he agreed with both Jay and Jack on their NK analysis, then dismissed the info as useful, it comes off as buddying mixed with fence-sitting.


Still reading up on phone.

Includes Elohcin in a little player salad among the other low posters of the early game.

Gives Scotty shit for his Eloh vote on Day 2. To me this looks like Soneji trying to set up a townie for voting for an easy-target townie. Decent look for Elohcin/MP.

Soneji doesn't appear to have acknowledged MP after he replaced into the game.

Elohcin / MovingPictures07 stuff

Elohcin never mentioned Soneji.

Spoiler: show

vote Soneji

Walk me through this like I know nothing.

Because I pretty much do know nothing.

Wants to know more about my Soneji vote. That particular vote was kind of out of nowhere by design. MP sighed when I declined to explain. MP's voting behavior during the EOD4 chaos was very fluid, though perhaps he was semi-guilty of following me around. His vote was on all three major wagons at various points.

Spoiler: show

Holy hell, what kind of vote hopping fuckery is this. LC has straight up lied about his night actions and has now on multiple occasions just deflected suspicion by claiming his accuser hasn't caught any scum.

At least I'm around this time when people lynch me for bullshit reasons.

What are the bullshit reasons?

Indeed, what are they

Spoiler: show

Soneji and Quin both seem to be throwing around some pretty strong language about LC being bad. Am I misinterpreting confidence level?

Not sure where MP was going with this post. Please revisit it for a moment, MP.

Spoiler: show

Given what speedchuck just summarized, as well as a clear attempt to paint LC as a bullshit artist AND a lack of town-seeming presence at the moment, I'm going to hop back on Soneji. It seems like the strongest case to me -- I would rather go on in-thread interaction behavior than very complex night action stuff anyway.

vote Soneji

Favors the interactive/behavioral case against Soneji over the mechanical cases against Long Con/Quin.

MP ended up moving his vote back to Quin briefly, and then when I yelled at him for tying it he went back to Soneji. I believe his was the hammer vote.

~~~

Conclusion

MP has a great skill for posting at a spam pace even when bad, so I am hesitant to give him too much credit for his EOD4 conduct. However, I have no good reason to suspect him either and I think there were some minor town indicators for Elohcin.

[Quin]

juliets, when did you come to the conclusion that it's likely that I'm not town based on my role claim?

[Quin]

I don't have a lot of time right now, I just wanted to catch up on the night's posts. I'll just give a rainbow for now, then do farm chores, shower, and go to work... arriving home in perhaps 5 hours from now, give or take half an hour. Then some family time and dinner, but that still leaves time within that 13 hours before lynch time.

Nutella
Golden
Dyslexicon
Quin
Sloonei
Elohcin
juliets
Soneji
insertnamehere
Fredwood
Scotty
Strawhenge
Jackofhearts
JJJ
Speedchuck

LC, I forgot to ask you yesterday what made you read me as orange? Also, are there any of these reads you would change at this point?

Absolutely, there have definitely been developments since my last list... JJJJ getting confirmed town is the glaringly obvious one (RIP nutella - you may end up as MVP of this game). I'll try to cobble together a new one in my next post.

I want to apologize for being absent and missing the vote yesterday, and for not showing up until now today. I got sick. I don't know if it was stomach flu or food poisoning, but I ended up in bed after dinner, feeling nauseous and achy... and although I am the King of Not Throwing Up, I dealt with lots and lots of...

Spoiler: show

Last night I was pretty much over that unpleasantness, but my legs were aching insanely... walking around, lying down, sitting, stretching, nothing helped them. So I went to bed around 8:30, had the craziest dreams ever, and woke up around 7:30 feeling back to normal, slightly hungry.

And y'all talk so much! I read through the stuff since the night post. JJJ, your level of analysis is way beyond what I am able to put into most Mafia games, so kudos to you. Do you have a job, or sleep at all? I trust Quin, he's one of the good ones. He's been interrogated plenty, and I haven't seen anything that makes him look suspicious or lying to me. Jack, on the other hand, was gung-ho to take Quin down, and now his arguments read more like he is afraid that if he lets go too easily, he'll look bad... but he knows he needs to let go. Something like "If you're Mafia, you're lying, and if you're town, you're helping the Mafia." Like, seriously? It's ok to admit you were wrong, unless you have an investment in clinging to a perspective. Doesn't look good.

I became his second top town read, after the confirmed townie. Various posts about genuinity, belief in my doctor claim, then:

I'm willing to reconsider. I don't have any reads worth a damn. Convince me, LC. Were you instrumental in getting MM lynched?

Yes. Each of the five votes for MM were essential. One missing, and he would have walked.

Why were you specifically instrumental to the case? What did you bring to the table?

Vote Quin

I think Soneji is the easy vote, not the right vote. After Jack's flip (RIP) I have reevaluated Quin. I thought Jack was being disingenuous about him, but it turns out he was probably right.

The tunneling dead guy is now right about me because he was civ.

[Quin]

That first post would have made Epi flip his shit btw

[Quin]

**Because he seems to have disappeared but unlike Elo hasn't asked for replacement. I need to read through his posts.

Thanks for the reads, juliets. I think you forgot Elohcin though; where'd she be situated on the ol' rainbow?

I think I also forgot Quin.

Quin would be in light green and Eloh would be in yellow.

What information could juliets have received mid-day that would make me fall from light green to a vote (I think)?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Interaction of Soneji and DFaraday / juliets

Soneji stuff

Spoiler: show

@Jay in regards to the sig lynch: I would say Syndicate regulars with their familiarity with sig mislynches come off looking the worst in general, yourself and Golden in particular as starters of that wagon. I can't really agree that "Are there any good reasons not to lynch sig" is a good approach, "Are there any good reasons we should lynch sig over Wilgy, Sorcha, Dfaraday, Eloh" would be a considerably better one.

@Sloonei on Golden : I would say that talking about ones scum meta as a response to suspicion is generally something mafia do more than town. Especially when one is touting themselves as too careful/skilled to scumslip in certain ways, it's a method of intimidation. Golden going into his scum meta there just felt straight unnecessary

Later Golden gives his opinion on whose more likely to have killed Nacho then dismisses that info as something he doesn't believe as worthwhile. Why even remark on it if you don't think it is a viable method of scumhunting? Since he agreed with both Jay and Jack on their NK analysis, then dismissed the info as useful, it comes off as buddying mixed with fence-sitting.


Still reading up on phone.

Same little list of non-posters included DFaraday as possible lynches better than sig.

Spoiler: show

juliet's said something about how Scotty here reminded her of herself in GoC when she mislynched me. I checked that game to see if she was still alive and at least according to the player list she hasn't died yet, so it pings me that she is using her unconfirmed alignment there to townread someone here.

This is a really complex reason offered by Soneji to cast suspicion upon juliets. I've decided it's null for her though because of course his read was manufactured. He was bad.

Spoiler: show

Soneji, Quin, and Golden:

Do you think it's likely that there is redundancy in the doctor role in the civ alignment? [Soneji you may not have gotten to the point yet that you understand why I'm asking this]

What do you mean by redundancy?

Two doctor roles that operate on odd nights.

I come from a place where the even/odd night thing with power roles is pretty rare. If there were two doctors, one even night and one odd night, the balance/intrigue there would be that you have two chances to get someone good at picking doctor targets and the mafia hitting one of them doesn't take away your doctor protects entirely.

Can't say how likely it is given this game is in a weird place between The Syndicate and Narutoforums in terms of power.

Neutral doctor claim chatter.

Spoiler: show

juliets, are you more concerned with the likelihood of two town doctors pointing to Quin being scum or Golden not watching obvious mafia kill targets?

This again. As it pertains to juliets, this again tells me little.

Spoiler: show

I'm going to

UNVOTE

VOTE Long Con

This is why I think we should stay on soneji.

I don't trust juliets right now

We're awfully close to someone trying a sneak hammer

If you think both Juliets and I are scum, whose exactly going to sneak a hammer that takes three more votes?

Oops. I might buy this as a straight up spew that juliets is town.

juliets stuff

Spoiler: show

Soneji, I'd love to hear about your worthless Day 3 vote.

I didn't understand this vote either. It seemed like you didn't want to take a stand in the main debate. Also Soneji, will you give some reads in this game or is this something you are always fundamentally opposed to?

Werd. I think juliets sounds authentic in this prod given her recent experience in other games with Soneji.

Dang yellow again in a dang rainbow

Spoiler: show

Yeah I wasn't focused on the rest of the team when I started thinking about this last night. Thanks.

Do you still see Scotty and Soneji (and maybe Quin, I wasn't sure if your list was in order or not) above Jack on your list of people you think are bad?

linki

Soneji is mentioned here as juliets presses Fredwood for expanded reads.

Spoiler: show

I have proven to be a bad reader of Soneji, having just voted to lynch him in GOC for not providing reads. That said, I'm not wild about the fact that he left his vote on Fred when we were trying to decide the INH v. JOH lynch. Strawhenge is here now so maybe I can get a better picture of him/her(?).

juliets laments about her struggles reading Soneji in other games. I have no qualms with this.

Day 4 reads list - she names Soneji as a top suspect alongside Quin

Spoiler: show

Soneji, Quin, and Golden:

Do you think it's likely that there is redundancy in the doctor role in the civ alignment? [Soneji you may not have gotten to the point yet that you understand why I'm asking this]

I'm not exactly sure why she called upon Soneji and Golden with this question. I could be missing context. More chatter with Soneji about Quin

Spoiler: show

Can someone go over the case on Soneji again? There were the Marmot interactions and then what else?

She requested an updated case against Soneji, granting that she was aware of the Marmot interactions. This is a little curious given her prior stance that he was a top suspect on her reads list.

Spoiler: show

Jesus Christ

Ok, I'll go Soneji

UNVOTE

Vote Soneji

juliets pulling her hair out as she tries to figure out what the hell I am doing at EOD4. She left her vote there.

~~~

Conclusion

There are a couple of interesting moments here that I'd like juliets to talk about when she is able. For the most part I think she still looks fine though.

[Quin]

Spoiler: show

Though the quin claim is interesting, it at least has me leaning more town on them then the other two.

Spoiler: show

Dang, Fred got out of here without answering my question.

Fred, you probably didn't see this because it was in a longer post but here's my question:

Do you think it's believable that Jack would have not killed Silver Lantern, and argued with teammates not to kill him, because of his community outlook on Lantern's participation? I'm asking you because from what I gather you know Jack the best and come from the same community.

Don't know, Silver being the vig is sticky. I would agree that he would have argued against killing Silver in a normal situation. With him saying he was vig I think that argument gets shot down by the other mafia.

So, I'm not saying he did or didn't argue that Silver shouldn't be killed, but that it wouldn't have mattered because he was overridden or didn't have a better alternative. I certainly don't view Silver's death as proof of his innocence.

Yeah I wasn't focused on the rest of the team when I started thinking about this last night. Thanks.

Do you still see Scotty and Soneji (and maybe Quin, I wasn't sure if your list was in order or not) above Jack on your list of people you think are bad?

linki

Yes...

Quin was about equal at the beginning of today as Jack, the back and forth today means they aren't w/w, just not sure that it doesn't mean T/T. Jack's behavior is familiar, but he has moved ahead of Quin in suspicion for the time being. Still not in my top suspects.

You don't say a suspect is 'leaning more town', you say that a suspect is 'the least suspicious'.

You don't say a town read is 'not in my top suspects', you say that a town read is ...a town read.

So which was I, Fredwood?

[Quin]

Would rather kill Soneji than Strawhenge at the moment. Gut feeling. Probably need to find out why that is.

Strawhenge had posted twice and had been mentioned zero times that day. I don't think Soneji had posted once. Weird that speedchuck would bring them up so straightforwardly.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Interaction of Soneji and Dyslexicon

Soneji stuff

*85 search results for "Dys"*

Firmly refuted the Dizzy slip after Dizzy had provided the link to the previous game. I think this was obvious as hell, so whatever.

Spoiler: show

It wouldn't be a brilliant scum play as there is no true benefit for Dys in doing it, while it had a strong chance of getting them lynched with the hammer vote in place. Let's be clear that Dys is not getting town cred for his fake slip, proving that it was just that only removes him from the obvious lynch pile.

This looks like typical scum high-roading of an easy target getting easily targeted. Good look for Dizzy.

Most of the other mentions feature Soneji disparaging other players for their treatment of Dizzy during/after SlipGate, so it's more of the same.

Dyslexicon stuff

I don't feel like doing this. It's a lot of posts and I already know my read.

~~~

Conclusion

Dyslexicon continues to look fine.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Interaction of Soneji and Fredwood

Soneji tried to make Fredwood his whipping boy. Obvious. Not lynching. Not bothering with interactive analysis.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Interaction of Soneji and Strawhenge

Soneji stuff

Soneji didn't say anything to or mention Strawhenge.

Strawhenge stuff

No mention until Day 4.

Spoiler: show

Where is Straw and Soneji? Can we kill one of them?

Uh, rude!

Strawhenge is cranky about Dizzy trying to shoot his brains out (or Soneji).

Sub-yellow in a rainbow -- At least it's not dang yellow again. It's like yellow-orange.

Spoiler: show

We should remember that Sloonei's gun provides an added benefit -- it can used to eliminate a player who is otherwise a difficult lynch. Soneji is not a difficult lynch right now. That's probably a waste of a bullet.

We can shoot someone else, absorb the information gained, and then decide to lynch Soneji or someone else thereafter.

Who would you suggest?

I recommended shooting someone hard to lynch so that Soneji could be lynched. Strawhenge wanted suggestions, presumably for the gunshot. Only vaguely relevant.

Spoiler: show

Golden is now firmly in the greenish area of the spectrum for me. That scummy gut-read passed like a bit of overdone potato. I'm curious about your continuing case against me. I can't promise promptness with my answers, but I can answer questions if you have them.

Quin, in the words of a wise and wild individual, 'ur bad.' And soneji is your homie.

I'm down to lynch either of them. I'll place a placeholder vote on Quin

Asserted that Quin is bad with Soneji and voted for Quin. Strawhenge, why did you associate these two? His vote stayed here.

~~~

Conclusion

I think the best look for Strawhenge is that Soneji completely forgot he existed. Contrary to popular belief I don't think that's a teammate indicator. The worst look for Strawhenge is the Quin vote on Day 4.

Call Strawhenge a backup suspect.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

After all that shit clearly my top suspects are Long Con and Golden. I hope to hear from y'all about my analyses. If I said a dumb thing somewhere come and tell me, because otherwise I am going to just keep roasting here in Confident Mode. I'm feeling good.

[Quin]

Not necessarily. He listed the following as possible roles he might possess: doctor, bodyguard, nexus, guide, and "unculter" (irrelevant in a game with no cult).

Why is he not just outright claiming then, if he's going this far?
Nexus, I've seen in use differently than how he explains it. Basically I'm used to this being a passive role and an X-shot, which redirects any action being made against you to a random target. I've also only seen it used for non-town roles. It's rather rare.
Guide, I hadn't even heard of.
Doctor is problematic if Quin claims doctor, as is bodyguard.
I think Nut being strongman killed is pretty likely.

Dizzy makes a point that the balance is off if the role Jack wants to claim is protective in some way. I mentioned the possibility of either a role blocker or a strongman, and Dizzy went with Strongman. Ironically, Strongman is the one that makes the most sense given the protective claims we've had.

Why was strongman more likely than role blocker?

[Quin]

After all that shit clearly my top suspects are Long Con and Golden. I hope to hear from y'all about my analyses. If I said a dumb thing somewhere come and tell me, because otherwise I am going to just keep roasting here in Confident Mode. I'm feeling good.

woaaaaaaaaaaah


I haven't read them. I'll take a look at some point after I finished my read through. Read my stuff in the meantime

[JaggedJimmyJay]

An argument against a strongman's existence might be that Sloonei just died. Unless he was the deliberate target, a strongman typically pierces a bodyguard's protection. There's also the potential of a limited-shot strongman.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Read my stuff in the meantime

I am. I appreciate the prods and questions and will simply allow the people you're addressing to answer for themselves.

[Quin]

Golden: is there anything holding you back from claiming the remainder of your watch targets if you haven't already?

I will if there ever comes a time to call someone's bluff, but I can't see any reason to throw out people who no one else watched. It could both make my target set more predictable, and also reduce the target area for baddies to lie in.

These are bad excuses. Your target set will change every day. It's unpredictable enough on its own.

[Quin]

I'm also a little suspicious of Long Con and Juliets. But I still feel like I should shoot either Jack or Quin.

I know this isn't top priority but why are you suspicious of me?

Because you're name is an annagram of "just lie".

oh my shit

[Quin]

It's amazing that anyone has dies in this game.

Do you have any thoughts to add to this current setup discussion?

Unfortunately, not much.

The setup claims not to have any mod bastardry, meaning that roles probably do what they say they do. I think that's what it means.

So that could be important.

I am not a protective role, if that helps.

I don't believe that my role's sanity should be questioned after this post.

[Quin]

An argument against a strongman's existence might be that Sloonei just died. Unless he was the deliberate target, a strongman typically pierces a bodyguard's protection. There's also the potential of a limited-shot strongman.

It's possible Sloonei was the intended kill. Removing him now removes an element of surprise if the baddies ever have a specific kill in mind and they get a surprise Sloonei flip instead.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Could be. He was a consensus town read anyway, and Sloonei is a top tier civilian in general.

[Quin]

As Sloonei was possibly gearing up to shoot me, I'd say that my claim was made for good reason.

45 minutes after the initial post where he claimed he gave Sloonei the gun. Nobody asked. This is classic overcompensation.

[Quin]

Fred, when you come on today and after you catch up would you give a set of reads please?

Also guys, just trying to put the pieces together, is a stump someone who doesn't talk or vote? And does it make sense that you would "activate" your stumpiness? I'm just totally unfamiliar with a role like this.

I can't help with the balance issues, I generally don't host and when I do, have help with balance.

Stumps start as vanilla townies but can activate their powers, which does two things

1) They lose the ability to vote
2) They cannot be targeted by any actions

I'm not sure if this carries between all interpretations, but the stump stops counting as part of the town/mafia ratio. For example, if there's a game with a ratio of 8:3 and one townie becomes a stump, that ratio will become 7:3. The role would still win with town, but it's technically not aligned with any faction after that point.

A stump role is a role that's best suited to a driver of discussion, a supatown.

[Quin]

Stumps are removed from the lynch poll as well.

[Quin]

I'm sorry, did you get that gun from an item vote, Sloonei? My mistake.

Yuck.

[Quin]

So then for those who think Quin is civ, the dynamic would be he was blocked by the good role blocker and JJJ by the baddie role blocker?

Were we considering good and bad variants of the same role at this point in Day 4?

[Quin]

I want Golden's night results.

Claiming watcher puts a target on your back. Doing so without bringing forward good information is unnecessary.

I can understand some hesitancy to reveal night information due to the possibility of outing say, the doctor, but I think that ship has sailed.

We already ran into trouble with Golden misinterpreting his information (thinking Marmot had busdriver JJJ and Fred). I wouldn't be surprised (assuming Golden is town) if there was a useful gem of information for the town in those results.

Bullshit. We didn't run into any trouble with me misinterpreting information. I made the claim specifically because I was trying to draw out whether or not jay was bad (I mean, it followed from my claim that I was misdirected). Then I gave accurate information that I did not misinterpret.

I have been very clear that I saw no one but me in my watching results the last two nights. What 'useful gem of information' do you think is in there? Because I can only think of one, and that is knowing who I've targeted, and I think that's of more use to scum than town.

Why are you alive? Why did you not watch the publicly exposed vigilante and cop the last two nights?

These questions seem oddly contradictory.

You're right. But on the one hand, you claim to be an unlimited-shot watcher (I think) while all the other roles in the game seem somehow limited, and you're also apparently holding the map, yet you've gone untouched by the mafia.

On the other hand we've had two publicly outed town power roles who you've failed to watch over at night. Two separate possible angles to doubt the validity of your claim.

Ironically, Soneji pointed it out.

Having an unlimited shot watcher and and three shot tracker sucks as far as balance goes. For the sake of balance, it should be the other way around if it exists at all. I looked up roles once and saw people that considered the watcher role as overpowered.

[Quin]

LC only gave a gun on Night 2, because Soneji could only give a gun every even night. A baddie has a bulletproof vest right now, going by Soneji's role, as well.

[Quin]

hey soneji why shouldn't I shoot you?

Because I'm town.

Who does town soneji propose I shoot instead? Who did you vote for on Night 2?

I voted for you N2.

I would be inclined to say Fredwood but no one shares said suspicion. Shoot Golden.

I can picture Golden having said vest.

[Golden]

I do have the vest.

I've been played like a fiddle. I know I have to be lynched after lc, I can't be at lylp at this point. It sucks.

But I do think we are on solid track to win this despite me, so go town!

[Golden]

My watcher role is not overpowered.

[juliets]

Just answering some questions from the night and then asking a question. Hopefully I got everything:

Also, Juliets: Could the protection you ran across be a vest in any way?

No sorry, I wish it could be explained by a phenomena like this.

Just saying: Juliets and Quin are not claiming the same role. Numerous elements point to that.

Correct.

juliets, when did you come to the conclusion that it's likely that I'm not town based on my role claim?

The night I brought it out for the first time in here. That was Feb. 22, looks like it was the first night of Day 4.

**Because he seems to have disappeared but unlike Elo hasn't asked for replacement. I need to read through his posts.

Thanks for the reads, juliets. I think you forgot Elohcin though; where'd she be situated on the ol' rainbow?

I think I also forgot Quin.

Quin would be in light green and Eloh would be in yellow.

What information could juliets have received mid-day that would make me fall from light green to a vote (I think)?

I clarified something with the host.

She requested an updated case against Soneji, granting that she was aware of the Marmot interactions. This is a little curious given her prior stance that he was a top suspect on her reads list.

I had forgotten what other people were seeing that was so damning. I had momentarily forgotten the part about Soneji sitting out the EOD on INH v. Jack by sitting on Fred which was part of the reason for my finding Soneji at the bottom of my reads list early that morning.

So then for those who think Quin is civ, the dynamic would be he was blocked by the good role blocker and JJJ by the baddie role blocker?

Were we considering good and bad variants of the same role at this point in Day 4?

I don't know the answer to this question but I have been considering any possible way you could be good and what I know could be true, so I am twisting and turning roles in my head.

I do have the vest.

I've been played like a fiddle. I know I have to be lynched after lc, I can't be at lylp at this point. It sucks.

But I do think we are on solid track to win this despite me, so go town!

I hope this isn't a stupid question but when did you get the vest? And why would they give a vest to a civ instead of giving it to one of their own?

With sprityo's answer to JJJ's question LC really looks bad. I don't see a way he could be good at this point but maybe there is something I'm not seeing. I'm not going to vote for him yet because as someone pointed out there is no hurry and it's not a good thing I don't think for us to pile up votes fast.

Also Quin thanks for explaining the stump in more detail. I don't know where Scotty played before (Scotty where have you played before?) but I have never heard of this role coming up on the syndicate. Is it a role that comes up a lot elsewhere? I tend to read Scotty as light civ at the moment.

Why did Sloonei die? I understand he was confirmed civ but we have another confirmed civ and someone who is claiming doctor. Why him over others?