Mortal Kombat Mafia [ENDGAME]

[lapluie]

did lapulie explain her vote change?

I was afraid she had been manipulating us into feeling sorry for her. But I was wrong.

[TonyStarkPrime]

Tough lynch. Should have been a baddie. RIP.

Damn straight! We were handed a life line with the last night’s results and we just threw it away. I can’t see any logic voting Dunya over Simon in the first place and now we’re saying that Simon is Town?

I’m kinda glad that I won’t be around to endure this after the next 24 hours.

I don't know, is double targeting a thing in this game? You might be safe.

I, for the record, agree. After a sudden lynchswitch to Dunya, I'm even more certain that Simon is scum.

Somebody tell me why Simon is town after this lynch, because this is weird.

Simon is town because as far as I can tell he didn’t get bussed by his own team.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I cannot help but notice Simon came in and voted Dunya without a word.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Tough lynch. Should have been a baddie. RIP.

Damn straight! We were handed a life line with the last night’s results and we just threw it away. I can’t see any logic voting Dunya over Simon in the first place and now we’re saying that Simon is Town?

I’m kinda glad that I won’t be around to endure this after the next 24 hours.

I don't know, is double targeting a thing in this game? You might be safe.

I, for the record, agree. After a sudden lynchswitch to Dunya, I'm even more certain that Simon is scum.

Somebody tell me why Simon is town after this lynch, because this is weird.

Simon is town because as far as I can tell he didn’t get bussed by his own team.

Bullshit.

Simon is an easy as can be fall guy if he's town.

He's bad as Leroy Brown.

[Kylemii]

I cannot help but notice Simon came in and voted Dunya without a word.

he voted around when he made this post:

Voted Simon.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I cannot help but notice Simon came in and voted Dunya without a word.

he voted around when he made this post:

Voted Simon.

Without. A. Word.

[TonyStarkPrime]

Tough lynch. Should have been a baddie. RIP.

Damn straight! We were handed a life line with the last night’s results and we just threw it away. I can’t see any logic voting Dunya over Simon in the first place and now we’re saying that Simon is Town?

I’m kinda glad that I won’t be around to endure this after the next 24 hours.

I don't know, is double targeting a thing in this game? You might be safe.

I, for the record, agree. After a sudden lynchswitch to Dunya, I'm even more certain that Simon is scum.

Somebody tell me why Simon is town after this lynch, because this is weird.

Simon is town because as far as I can tell he didn’t get bussed by his own team.

Bullshit.

Simon is an easy as can be fall guy if he's town.

He's bad as Leroy Brown.

They didn’t need a fall guy, they had a Dunya lynch.

[TonyStarkPrime]

Based on Simon’s performance so far it’s hard to say he isn’t mafia but I feel like that shook out as if he were Town. I’m not sold on it, but I don’t think that should be where the lynch should be tomorrow at least.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Based on Simon’s performance so far it’s hard to say he isn’t mafia but I feel like that shook out as if he were Town. I’m not sold on it, but I don’t think that should be where the lynch should be tomorrow at least.

Tell me more about this.

What are some concrete things that Simon has done to make you think he is town or lynching him is a bad idea.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Tough lynch. Should have been a baddie. RIP.

Damn straight! We were handed a life line with the last night’s results and we just threw it away. I can’t see any logic voting Dunya over Simon in the first place and now we’re saying that Simon is Town?

I’m kinda glad that I won’t be around to endure this after the next 24 hours.

I don't know, is double targeting a thing in this game? You might be safe.

I, for the record, agree. After a sudden lynchswitch to Dunya, I'm even more certain that Simon is scum.

Somebody tell me why Simon is town after this lynch, because this is weird.

Simon is town because as far as I can tell he didn’t get bussed by his own team.

Bullshit.

Simon is an easy as can be fall guy if he's town.

He's bad as Leroy Brown.

They didn’t need a fall guy, they had a Dunya lynch.

Then they didn't need to bus Simon now did they?

[TonyStarkPrime]

Based on Simon’s performance so far it’s hard to say he isn’t mafia but I feel like that shook out as if he were Town. I’m not sold on it, but I don’t think that should be where the lynch should be tomorrow at least.

Tell me more about this.

What are some concrete things that Simon has done to make you think he is town or lynching him is a bad idea.

Who’s mafia if Simon is town?
Who’s mafia if Simon is mafia?

[Jackofhearts2005]

I don't think we're in this place in the absence of information. The surety of that information can be questioned, but I have no good reason to read Simon as a civilian.

Yuck.

[Jackofhearts2005]

If Simom does flip civ it should be noted that JJJ and Dunya switched to simon after I voted for speed and tied it briefly. So if Simon does flip civ and speed votes mafia then it should be noted who saved him.

I didn't even see you'd taken your vote off me or jjj voted Simon. at this point I'm inclined to believe Jack has info. If he doesn't he's being silly.

Silly? Why would Jack pretend such a thing when one of his alternate suspects, speedchuck, is a counter wagon?

Yuck.

[Jackofhearts2005]

"I think Jack has info that says Simon is bad but I'm gonna lynch a different player who is a townie instead."

Yuck yuck yuck.

[Jackofhearts2005]

The most recent page of speedchuck's ISO is heavy in self-defense and neutral commentary. Indeed, the only "hunting" I see is an agreement with dunya wondering aloud about LC as Kano. He griped at confirmed dead civilian MacDougall again. Not great.

Why is griping at a dead civilian a bad look?

It's pointless. MacDougall is here for one phase presumably, and he wants speedchuck dead. I don't get the impression speedchuck has done anything with that other than voice his irritation. If he's innocent, then the direct interaction with the corpse-who-hates-him is lacking.

Go look at that ISO. Does it look to you like a civilian speedchuck dealing with an incorrect confirmed civilian? He hasn't given Mac the time of day other than to at him and pooh pooh his play.

Yes, absolutely it does.

When someone who you know makes a case against you that is just saying you are bad over and over, that is annoying and Speedchuck has acted annoyed.

Now I am annoyed because I was thinking we'd lynch a baddie and I could focus on Speedchuck but instead we lynched a townie and now I have to second guess you and Tony.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Super annoyed that Dunya basically let herself die.

Super annoyed that Mac thought Simon was mafia and still fought tooth and nail against us lynching him.

Maybe townies try to lynch mafia okay? Let's try that as a new strategy.

[Jackofhearts2005]

IDK about Quinn though....

Look at what quin is doing. No attempt to solve the mafia. He is just trying to find where to hide his vote.

Hide his vote, hes been tunneling Dunya all day.... I wasn't even moved until recently with a few of Duns posts.

You can't hide your vote in a train you created on someone you claim is on his team no less. That would just be confusing to do considering all the players you lumped together.

I think what MIGHT have happened is Speed and Dunya are teammates with Jack, possibly Simon and railroaded Simon to save those two from a three way tie. Or Simons a civ who wont defend himself anyway.

I at mentioned Simon when I initially voted for him at the beginning of the phase. Nobody's sneaking a lynch in on Simon.

He was around to defend himself. Choose not to.

He's bad.

You think me and Simon are bad together? Let me lynch Simon. What do you care?

[Jackofhearts2005]

I'm staying on speedchuck.

Why? You thought I had info on Simon.

Explain to me why taking a stand on Speedchuck was more important than lynching a baddie.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm staying on speedchuck.

Why? You thought I had info on Simon.

Explain to me why taking a stand on Speedchuck was more important than lynching a baddie.

Information is theoretical, and in these huge ass complex setups it is nothing close to infallible. It is a component of a decision, not the entirety. My least favorite thing as of the deadline was speedchuck's handling of MacDougall's ghost. I was also expecting dunya to save herself at the end with a Simon vote. I didn't anticipate the last-second switch from lapluie or dunya's resignation.

Either Simon or speedchuck were agreeable lynches to me. I don't view either of those lynches as undeniable slam dunks.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I haven't read in a couple days, but I do remember Dunya coming in here defending Simon a lot to someone who was suspecting him. So, that alone is a Simon/Dunya teammie ping. I will put my vote on Dunya since she has the most already. And if she turns out bad, I say we go Simon next.

Yuckyuckyuck.

[Long Con]

Hey, RIP dunya. Sorry if lapluie discredited the info-claim theory, but I went to work hours before the lynch was up and before she came back, and I had to make a snap decision... and that decision was the one I expected to make, especially when you were already the clear vote leader. So, lame.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I'm staying on speedchuck.

Why? You thought I had info on Simon.

Explain to me why taking a stand on Speedchuck was more important than lynching a baddie.

Information is theoretical, and in these huge ass complex setups it is nothing close to infallible. It is a component of a decision, not the entirety. My least favorite thing as of the deadline was speedchuck's handling of MacDougall's ghost. I was also expecting dunya to save herself at the end with a Simon vote. I didn't anticipate the last-second switch from lapluie or dunya's resignation.

Either Simon or speedchuck were agreeable lynches to me. I don't view either of those lynches as undeniable slam dunks.

Tell me why Speedchuck or Dunya would be preferable or even comparably good lynches to Simon if I didn't have info. Cause I don't see it, Jimmy. So for you and Marmot to say you think I do have info but to vote against that, for strictly less suspicious people? I have a hard time squaring that with townie alignment.

Tell me what you think of Simon's reaction to this train, Lap's last minute switch, Tony's insistence that Simon would have been bussed if he was bad but not if he was good, Wilgy's vote for Speed and Eloh's "lynch Dunya over Simon but only lynch Simon if Dunya flips scum."

[Long Con]

Based on Simon’s performance so far it’s hard to say he isn’t mafia but I feel like that shook out as if he were Town. I’m not sold on it, but I don’t think that should be where the lynch should be tomorrow at least.

Tell me more about this.

What are some concrete things that Simon has done to make you think he is town or lynching him is a bad idea.

Who’s mafia if Simon is town?
Who’s mafia if Simon is mafia?

This post pings me. It's like you took a line from the "How To Mafia" handbook and applied it to the flavour of the day. It's suspicious because Simon has very few posts, and none of them are interactive.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Tell me why Speedchuck or Dunya would be preferable or even comparably good lynches to Simon if I didn't have info. Cause I don't see it, Jimmy. So for you and Marmot to say you think I do have info but to vote against that, for strictly less suspicious people? I have a hard time squaring that with townie alignment.

Tell me what you think of Simon's reaction to this train, Lap's last minute switch, Tony's insistence that Simon would have been bussed if he was bad but not if he was good, Wilgy's vote for Speed and Eloh's "lynch Dunya over Simon but only lynch Simon if Dunya flips scum."

"Strictly less suspicious people" is where you and I diverge. Apart from this possible information, which I am already conditioned not to entirely trust in a game with multiple blockers, a switcher, and 20+ ??? abilities that do god knows what, I didn't believe the case against Simon was that interesting. Indeed, for me the potential that information existed was the case against Simon. It wasn't "information exists and he is also super suspicious". He's a 10 year old kid that rarely gets heavily involved in a game. I've never seen him do much more than he has here regardless of alignment. His specific reaction to the train was to place a self-preservation vote. That is protocol. I'd have liked it more if he said something too. He'll be a suspect moving forward.

~ Lap's late switch fits her continued suspicion of dunya. She has said that she was afraid of being manipulated by dunya or something similar, and given MacDougall's comments at the end I can frankly believe her on that.

~ I don't know what you're referring to yet re: TSP. Stand by.

~ Wilgy is also a suspect and I don't think it matters much what speedchuck's alignment is on that front.

~ I said earlier that I didn't like Elohcin gluing dunya to Simon merely because she had defended him. That's an overly simplistic read and it felt shoehorned into a thread which was begging for dunya votes. One can also suggest that if she and Simon are mafia, then by gluing dunya to him and lynching her first she severs that tie and makes him look better -- this is a more speculative notion but it's worth discussion.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm never playing in two games at once again. What a pain in the ass.

(I encourage all Syndicate members to play in every game; I'm just a tired old man)

[Jackofhearts2005]

There's a cop, a lie detector, a letter learner and a tracker plus hidden powers. There is one known power that would make any of these incorrect.

Meanwhile Ermac said a block wasn't the cause of the failure so the multiple blocks don't enter into it.

If you think night power info is the only reason for the Simon case (it isn't. Dunya did a comparison of townie and scum Simon in previous games), I don't see why you wouldn't follow it.

[Marmot]

I'm never playing in two games at once again. What a pain in the ass.

(I encourage all Syndicate members to play in every game; I'm just a tired old man)

I'm not looking forward to hosting a game on top of this for various reasons.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Plus the misdirector is a townie and I haven't had any votes on me.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I take back my complaints of Dunya giving up. Defending yourself until 3 am is more than a fair try.

[Marmot]

Diunya, why do we fall?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

There's a cop, a lie detector, a letter learner and a tracker plus hidden powers. There is one known power that would make any of these incorrect.

Meanwhile Ermac said a block wasn't the cause of the failure so the multiple blocks don't enter into it.

If you think night power info is the only reason for the Simon case (it isn't. Dunya did a comparison of townie and scum Simon in previous games), I don't see why you wouldn't follow it.

I'm going to be honest. I have hardly read anything Ermac said. There's a portion of this phase I did not get around to reading given the business I've had to tend to this weekend outside this game. When time permits I'll review all of that and decide whatever I decide.

Also consider the role of culture here. You come from a place in HCRealms where role-driven information is arguably the most critical element of the hunting process. In a classically-styled Syndicate full game, it is a different beast as are perceptions thereof.

[Jackofhearts2005]

With HCRealms games, you have safeclaims, misdirectors, bus drivers, shape shifters, hiders, scum who die and flip town and then come back and flip bad when you kill them a second time. All in the same game.

Here, the front page tells you there are lots of info gatherers and next to know misdirection roles.

I'm trusting someone on the Syndicate who I think probably has info more than I trust someone on the realms who says "I copped so and so mafia."

[Jackofhearts2005]

Lynch me on my content if you want to, but don't use my attendance at a freaking wedding to throw shade. That's desperate and low.

I'm freaking trying. Ask me questions, because I can't catch up like this

Can confirm. Speedchuck wasn't on our Chatsy all night.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Simon is town because as far as I can tell he didn’t get bussed by his own team.

Is this to say that you don't believe it's a likely scenario that a mafia Simon would have been lynched primarily by civilians? If so, why?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I've just realized that three of the four dead players are RYMers.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Jimmy, please explain what happened between here

Voted Simon.

And here

Simon is who the scum want to lynch. Agreed?

That makes him the worst candidate.

I'd rather lynch speedchuck.

Cause neither Simon nor Speedchuck did anything relevant between these posts.

[TonyStarkPrime]

I'm never playing in two games at once again. What a pain in the ass.

(I encourage all Syndicate members to play in every game; I'm just a tired old man)

I'm not looking forward to hosting a game on top of this for various reasons.

My game just opened.
JackOfHearts should check in.




Anyways, let’s talk about Simon. My main concern about Simon being mafia is that I don’t see visible signs of people trying to save him. Besides that last minute Lap switch. That was pretty bleh. But I wouldn’t put Lap on my Mafia list (which might be on me). To me it seems like mafia just sat the end of that day out, which would suggest either they all had their votes where they wanted them and didn’t care between the top two / three.

@JJJ
If Simon got lynched and flipped mafia, the assumption would be that mafia bussed him hard. So obviously a Simon lynch would have town votes on it but it would also be an easy way for mafia to get cred and I doubt they wouldn’t take it.


I guess I’ll phrase my original question this way. How many mafia members do y’all think were on the Dunya lynch?

[Jackofhearts2005]

There are 14 minutes. Vote speedchuck. Go.

Jimmy is bad with Simon.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

They don't have to do anything relevant. I am a player continually thinking through the end of the phase and my mind will morph in accordance with all accumulated data.
speedchuck was my preference and I tried to generate that lynch when Mac made it clear he wanted an alternative.

[Marmot]

I've just realized that three of the four dead players are RYMers.

I was an RYMer in the Talking Heads game.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

There are 14 minutes. Vote speedchuck. Go.

Jimmy is bad with Simon.

Okay.

Believe what you will. I've too little time in this game available to waste it on this. You're wrong.

[TonyStarkPrime]

There are 14 minutes. Vote speedchuck. Go.

Jimmy is bad with Simon.

One of very few possibilities where Simon as mafia makes sense to me but I don’t know if I’m quite paranoid to indulge in it yet.

Also I just reread EOD and I gained a new scumread on Mac :P.

[Jackofhearts2005]

They don't have to do anything relevant. I am a player continually thinking through the end of the phase and my mind will morph in accordance with all accumulated data.
speedchuck was my preference and I tried to generate that lynch when Mac made it clear he wanted an alternative.

So with 8 votes on Simon (who you thought I had info on) and 6 votes on Dunya (who you thought was town) and 14 min to go, you decided to tell people voting Simon to switch to Speed, who had 1 vote on him.

But you're a townie and couldn't anticipate how this plan could have resulted in a townie lynch?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@JJJ
If Simon got lynched and flipped mafia, the assumption would be that mafia bussed him hard. So obviously a Simon lynch would have town votes on it but it would also be an easy way for mafia to get cred and I doubt they wouldn’t take it.

I don't quite follow. If the prevailing assumption were that the mafia were bussing Simon, wouldn't that significantly limit any credit they can expect to earn for having done so?

[TonyStarkPrime]

@JJJ
If Simon got lynched and flipped mafia, the assumption would be that mafia bussed him hard. So obviously a Simon lynch would have town votes on it but it would also be an easy way for mafia to get cred and I doubt they wouldn’t take it.

I don't quite follow. If the prevailing assumption were that the mafia were bussing Simon, wouldn't that significantly limit any credit they can expect to earn for having done so?

Super WIFOM but I don’t think it’s accurate. Let’s say Lap didn’t switch and Simon got lynched and flips Maf. Who takes more suspicion: Dunya voters or Simon voters?

[Jackofhearts2005]

I really need to finish my presentation on civilian philosophy that nobody will watch. I respect that you believe what you're saying sig, but these kinds of "X saved Y!" and "X is trying to hot potatoe Y civilian!" type arguments fall flat so much more frequently than they amount to anything. Catching mafia is not that easy.

WIFOM

"The baddie thing I am doing is too blatantly bad. Catching baddies is not this easy. Ergo I am not bad."

[Jackofhearts2005]

When did Simon change, he voted me earlier.....

Two votes, one post from Simon. No defense. No hint.

Baddies: Simon, Jimmy, Wilgy.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@JJJ
If Simon got lynched and flipped mafia, the assumption would be that mafia bussed him hard. So obviously a Simon lynch would have town votes on it but it would also be an easy way for mafia to get cred and I doubt they wouldn’t take it.

I don't quite follow. If the prevailing assumption were that the mafia were bussing Simon, wouldn't that significantly limit any credit they can expect to earn for having done so?

Super WIFOM but I don’t think it’s accurate. Let’s say Lap didn’t switch and Simon got lynched and flips Maf. Who takes more suspicion: Dunya voters or Simon voters?

In a vacuum, the dunya voters probably take more suspicion -- though I'd expect both wagons to draw significant scrutiny given the environment of the thread prior to that point. You've said that you don't feel Simon is as likely to be mafia given that his voters don't appear to be mafia (i.e. your suspects were more centralized on the dunya wagon). What specifically drives these suspicions for you, your belief in Simon as a civilian or your suspects as suspects? I'm trying to piece apart the chicken and the egg of what you're saying.

[Jackofhearts2005]

[mention]JaggedJimmyJay[/mention]

That wasn't a hypothetical question. I want you to walk me through what you were trying to do minutes before EOD with the switch to Speed.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@JaggedJimmyJay

That wasn't a hypothetical question. I want you to walk me through what you were trying to do minutes before EOD with the switch to Speed.

I was trying to lynch speedchuck. 14 minutes is a long time. In Mountain Mafia I went from third place in a tally to first place, covering about 5-6 votes dropped on me in quick succession, in the space of about 10 minutes. I wanted to make that happen. Hot potatoes only require a series of clicks by active players in the thread. I didn't succeed.