GY!BE Mafia [E.N.D.]

[Golden]

So if I understand you correctly, instead of picking somebody who reads as bad to lynch, you make a list of everybody who reads as good and choose from the others to lynch? Does that, er, ever actually work? Have you used this approach successfully before?

Nice to meet you, trice!

It's my fault the concept is looked down upon, because I first used it to describe why I didn't regret lynching somebody who turned out to be town, but looked bad. In any other world, people wouldn't have been as mad as me because the reason he looked bad was all the normal reasons - but what got people's back up is I said that it was a necessary lynch because if we didn't, we'd just be arguing about him the next day and the next day. It was sad that he was civ, but I felt the lynch was still the right move to solve the game. (Also, worth noting - civs could win dead in that game, so I didn't cost the person their shot at winning).

A big difference in the approach is what you do to the 'people in the middle'. Because often, they can sneak by without doing anything and they never take any heat, and then they turn out to be bad and win.

The idea is, instead, put pressure on those people to try to figure out that they are town or bad instead of letting them float.

In the game where I got in trouble, the mafia did include a floater or two, so it was helpful to use the approach.

It's really not very different from how we do mafia normally, though. It's essentially the same, just with more emphasis on sharing your town reads, and more willingness to listen to each other when your reads differ and try and figure out (together) who is right.

[Tangrowth]

I still don't get how this so-called POE is any different from normal mafia strategy

you are trying to figure out whether people are civ or baddie, which is the same thing you (or at least I) would do in any case other than when somebody slips and sounds obviously like a baddie (which I think is what MP referred to earlier as "tunneling")

even if your normal approach is to try and identify baddies, that still necessitates getting reads on people and ruling them out if they seem civ

maybe somebody can explain to me differently?

The difference is in the object of the hunt; that's all. Typically players hunt for mafia to solve the game, and if they make genuine / town reads on other players in the process then so be it and that helps, but to find the mafia is the main objective. POE just takes the reverse stance on that; instead of hunting for suspicious behavior, hunt to find fellow town, then just eliminate players who don't exhibit town behavior (hence why it's called process of elimination).

You're right that they're two sides of the same coin in the end; they're both ways to solve the game for the town. POE just specifically alters the main objective of the town to (theoretically) more effectively solve the game (because hunting for town is easier than hunting for mafia).

So if I understand you correctly, instead of picking somebody who reads as bad to lynch, you make a list of everybody who reads as good and choose from the others to lynch? Does that, er, ever actually work? Have you used this approach successfully before?

If I also understand correctly, the only reason that pages of discussion about so-called POE even started is because:

Although recently I've uncovered that POE naturally describes my recently developed playstyle because I much more easily find town reads than I do baddie reads

so I'm not sure why some people are getting so hung up on it (especially as MP's approach doesn't dictate how anybody else wants to play this game)

Something like that, yeah. I've found in recent games that my Day 1 and even Day 2 rainbow lists tend to be something like that anyway, various town reads with perhaps more than one tier (usually one early on though, just slight town), and then a bunch of null or slight mafia reads that I cannot make heads or tails of (yet have no compelling reason to call them town). As the game progresses though, that generally has changed.

I've never actually tried POE myself (by saying "I'm going to do POE!") before, no, so this is a bit experimental, and if I find that I feel my hunting will be better served by augmenting or leaving the approach behind, I'll still do so, especially since no one seems to be taking me up on my offer to group-POE (understandably though). That will inevitably limit what I can accomplish since I'll be the only one utilizing it, but it's worth a try I think, especially since I find that it complements what my playstyle has developed into these days.

And I've witnessed very impressive / successful uses of POE though (like in the Mafia Championship 2016 games), so it can work.

[Tangrowth]

triceratopzeuhl:

In your first post you acknowledged the quick beginnings of the baddie hunting in this game with what looked like an air of approval. Your content since though has been about the POE strategic discussion. Do you derive any reads from that?

Just impressed with the gusto from some people even if it might be mostly hot air. I can't tell much on day 0 and I seriously doubt anybody else can, no matter what they claim. We don't even have a lynch vote today, no night actions have happened, there isn't even a semi-nonsensical day 0 poll like some hosts like to do (MP comes to mind). At best one of the over-enthused paragraphs here will sound funny & gather suspicion - but who is more likely to be theorycrafting and looking for a winning strategy for the civs, goodies or baddies? Baddies benefit more from not directing attention at themselves.

Anyway, if alex is going to be posting his rainbow list here instead of keeping his reads private, it will if nothing else provide fodder for discussion

Previously I've found my town game hindered by analysis paralysis; I've since tried to leave that behind and let my gut call more of the shots, but I try not to let it get out of hand either. Tunneling can be a townie's worst enemy; re-assessing town and mafia reads is so key.

[Tangrowth]

triceratopzeuhl:

In your first post you acknowledged the quick beginnings of the baddie hunting in this game with what looked like an air of approval. Your content since though has been about the POE strategic discussion. Do you derive any reads from that?

Just impressed with the gusto from some people even if it might be mostly hot air. I can't tell much on day 0 and I seriously doubt anybody else can, no matter what they claim. We don't even have a lynch vote today, no night actions have happened, there isn't even a semi-nonsensical day 0 poll like some hosts like to do (MP comes to mind). At best one of the over-enthused paragraphs here will sound funny & gather suspicion - but who is more likely to be theorycrafting and looking for a winning strategy for the civs, goodies or baddies? Baddies benefit more from not directing attention at themselves.

Anyway, if alex is going to be posting his rainbow list here instead of keeping his reads private, it will if nothing else provide fodder for discussion

I like this post.

What do you like about it?

[triceratopzeuhl]

(what colour are questions to the host supposed to be? I can't remember any of the std mafia text colours)

ric, if Motherfucker = Redeemer role checks a baddie but fails the roll to kill them, will the rest of us know? Likewise if they role check a dead civ and fail the resurrect role

I ask mainly because I want to know if we will be able to tell the difference (via host posts) between a dead baddie being checked, and a dead civ being checked but not resurrected

linki-

Golden:

It's my fault the concept is looked down upon, because I first used it to describe why I didn't regret lynching somebody who turned out to be town, but looked bad. In any other world, people wouldn't have been as mad as me because the reason he looked bad was all the normal reasons - but what got people's back up is I said that it was a necessary lynch because if we didn't, we'd just be arguing about him the next day and the next day. It was sad that he was civ, but I felt the lynch was still the right move to solve the game. (Also, worth noting - civs could win dead in that game, so I didn't cost the person their shot at winning).

I'm 90% I've made that exact same argument before

Alex: I mainly asked about it because I've never heard of POE before today (I think I've played ~8-10 mafia games)

[Golden]

let my gut call more of the shots.

Hey MPs gut

I want to hear a gut baddie read from you. I'm partly asking to make sure you can't hide behind a 'town-reads only' strategy.

[Tangrowth]

(what colour are questions to the host supposed to be? I can't remember any of the std mafia text colours)

ric, if Motherfucker = Redeemer role checks a baddie but fails the roll to kill them, will the rest of us know? Likewise if they role check a dead civ and fail the resurrect role

I ask mainly because I want to know if we will be able to tell the difference (via host posts) between a dead baddie being checked, and a dead civ being checked but not resurrected

linki-

Golden:

It's my fault the concept is looked down upon, because I first used it to describe why I didn't regret lynching somebody who turned out to be town, but looked bad. In any other world, people wouldn't have been as mad as me because the reason he looked bad was all the normal reasons - but what got people's back up is I said that it was a necessary lynch because if we didn't, we'd just be arguing about him the next day and the next day. It was sad that he was civ, but I felt the lynch was still the right move to solve the game. (Also, worth noting - civs could win dead in that game, so I didn't cost the person their shot at winning).

I'm 90% I've made that exact same argument before

Alex: I mainly asked about it because I've never heard of POE before today (I think I've played ~8-10 mafia games)

No worries, ask away. Part of the reason I wanted to bring it up here is because I genuinely want to make a conscious effort to try it out, but the other part is that I wanted to see how those who know of POE would handle my proposal and simultaneously throw it out there since I'm pretty sure about half of the player list doesn't/didn't know what it is, so you're not alone despite being gone from the game for a while.

[Tangrowth]

let my gut call more of the shots.

Hey MPs gut

I want to hear a gut baddie read from you. I'm partly asking to make sure you can't hide behind a 'town-reads only' strategy.

Argh, do I have to?

Boomslang.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What do you like about it?

His comment about your rainbow looks like one emerging from a brainstate where such a thing is unusual and may seem dangerous -- but it's there so we might as well make use of it.

That state seems more town-inclined than not.

[Tangrowth]

What do you like about it?

His comment about your rainbow looks like one emerging from a brainstate where such a thing is unusual and may seem dangerous -- but it's there so we might as well make use of it.

That state seems more town-inclined than not.

I can dig it. Hadn't thought of it, but that makes sense. My gut digs it.

[Boomslang]

a 1 colour rainbow

It's GY!BE mafia, fam. The only colors worth using are various shades of gray

[Tangrowth]

Scotty, you've gotten some heat already. What do you have to say for yourself, good sir?

[Scotty]

Hot takes

Bwt is town. Scotty is bad.

Can you elaborate?

No.

I mean, I could, but I'd rather not right now.

You are just as bad as me if you think I am bad without elaboration.

Also I haven't looked at my role card yet. I'll do that when the game actually starts.

I'm interested in why MP is the self-proclaimed Mother Theresa this game, and is getting a pass for listing off civs.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

What other sites have you played Mafia on trice?

[Tangrowth]

Yo Boomslang, my gut says you're yucky. What is your response to that?

[Scotty]

Scotty, you've gotten some heat already. What do you have to say for yourself, good sir?

Pretty typical day 1 for me

O wait it's still day 0.

Get off my back, monkeys

[Tangrowth]

Hot takes

Bwt is town. Scotty is bad.

Can you elaborate?

No.

I mean, I could, but I'd rather not right now.

You are just as bad as me if you think I am bad without elaboration.

Also I haven't looked at my role card yet. I'll do that when the game actually starts.

I'm interested in why MP is the self-proclaimed Mother Theresa this game, and is getting a pass for listing off civs.

And where are you getting that impression about me? Do you think my behavior has been suspicious? If so, what's your beef with me, man?

[triceratopzeuhl]

Now hold on JJJ - I didn't say it was dangerous necessarily, mostly I'm getting at that it doesn't sound very useful until you have a confident read on most of the players. IMO it's not necessarily worse than misreading somebody as bad and lynching civs that way.

also, MP if I call you alex do people know who I'm talking about? maybe I should stick to usernames lol


linki - I played the game MP hosted on progarchives + a couple or three games on each of 4EW, the piano, and here, IIRC

[Tangrowth]

Now hold on JJJ - I didn't say it was dangerous necessarily, mostly I'm getting at that it doesn't sound very useful until you have a confident read on most of the players. IMO it's not necessarily worse than misreading somebody as bad and lynching civs that way.

also, MP if I call you alex do people know who I'm talking about? maybe I should stick to usernames lol


linki - I played the game MP hosted on progarchives + a couple or three games on each of 4EW, the piano, and here, IIRC

Probably, yeah.

[Tangrowth]

Holy fuck, I have over 100 posts and it's not even Day 1 yet.

SUPATOWN POE STYLE.

[Scotty]

honestly how does anyone have a read yet

Are there any of my reads you don't understand, or are you just lamenting that it is too early in the game to have assessed any reads of your own?

2nd one

Sloonei, I would question whether confidence would make sense in the contexts you've referenced. I made assertions based upon my best understanding of the discussions and that was it. I can't derive a confident read on INH, for example, based upon the point for which MP requested feedback. I said as much. I can provide a tentative lean by meta but little else.

I think the meta you're assigning to me is better associated with a Zebra or a Mac. I may exhibit confidence eventually, but everything is tentative on Day 0. This one especially has been a large portion of strategic debate (I'll accept a share of the blame for that) and check-ins. The capacity for generating meaningful reads out of that is limited.

would you call a bad mac tentative?
I don't really get the reference.

Scotty's accusation of me looks like a stance taken for the sake of taking a stance. That's less ideal.

but like do you even know scotty though

Do you know Scotty tho

No beef, mostly tofu

You see, I'm on a special diet of only civs and you aren't on the menu

Okay.

Why don't I satisfy your diet?

bc you served a bunch of bull product when you read MP as bad because he's posting a lot.

1. Why are you answering for Scotty?

2. That's an oversimplification of what I did that makes it sound worse than it was. I made a very specific numeral comparison to a game when MP was bad. It's not that he "posted a lot", it's that he utterly obliterated the count lead by a mile. He doesn't always manage quite that. It was something that concerned me in Transistor because I thought it might get him into trouble for being too tryhard. The memory came to me here so I poked him with it. I don't read him as bad. He warrants a little more poking than most other players because he does well to convey "genuine" effort regardless of alignment. I doubt it's the last time I'll poke him.

Why did Dom answer for me? I'm actually curious as well.

I think Dom is bad.

[triceratopzeuhl]

I was gonna say, if I want any hope of keeping up with discussion I need to post faster

[Tangrowth]

Scotty, why do you think Dom is bad exactly?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Now hold on JJJ - I didn't say it was dangerous necessarily, mostly I'm getting at that it doesn't sound very useful until you have a confident read on most of the players. IMO it's not necessarily worse than misreading somebody as bad and lynching civs that way.

also, MP if I call you alex do people know who I'm talking about? maybe I should stick to usernames lol


linki - I played the game MP hosted on progarchives + a couple or three games on each of 4EW, the piano, and here, IIRC

I was referring specifically to your rainbow comment, not the POE stuff. Maybe I misinterpreted. I ask about your other sites to gauge your experience with rainbow lists -- and at those sites I would guess it's limited or non-existent.

[Tangrowth]

I was gonna say, if I want any hope of keeping up with discussion I need to post faster

Sorry, I'm simultaneously torn between being insanely hyped for this game and wanting to generate ALL OF THE CONTENT IN THE UNIVERSE to catch all the town reads so that I can eliminate the mafia as well as trying to pace myself a bit so that I don't flood the thread too much with content.

The former half I think is winning. I need to run a quick errand anyway, so I'll leave again for a bit.

[Scotty]

Hot takes

Bwt is town. Scotty is bad.

Can you elaborate?

No.

I mean, I could, but I'd rather not right now.

You are just as bad as me if you think I am bad without elaboration.

Also I haven't looked at my role card yet. I'll do that when the game actually starts.

I'm interested in why MP is the self-proclaimed Mother Theresa this game, and is getting a pass for listing off civs.

And where are you getting that impression about me? Do you think my behavior has been suspicious? If so, what's your beef with me, man?

You made a series of posts back in 1996 (aka the first few pages of this game) where you expressed your lack of confidence in calling out people for being bad so you instead would resort to calling people good.

Anyone can call anyone good. You may be an idiot savant with calling people good correctly more often, but this isn't alignment indicative and I feel like it's an easy cop out for scum hunting.

Not to say you aren't scumhunting, but that pinged me hard.

[triceratopzeuhl]

Now hold on JJJ - I didn't say it was dangerous necessarily, mostly I'm getting at that it doesn't sound very useful until you have a confident read on most of the players. IMO it's not necessarily worse than misreading somebody as bad and lynching civs that way.

also, MP if I call you alex do people know who I'm talking about? maybe I should stick to usernames lol


linki - I played the game MP hosted on progarchives + a couple or three games on each of 4EW, the piano, and here, IIRC

I was referring specifically to your rainbow comment, not the POE stuff. Maybe I misinterpreted. I ask about your other sites to gauge your experience with rainbow lists -- and at those sites I would guess it's limited or non-existent.

oh ok

yeah no I've never seen rainbow lists before

[Golden]

ric, if Motherfucker = Redeemer role checks a baddie but fails the roll to kill them, will the rest of us know? Likewise if they role check a dead civ and fail the resurrect role

I'm unclear - the host should only answer your question if he is a motherfucker?

[Scotty]

I was gonna say, if I want any hope of keeping up with discussion I need to post faster

Hah

Just wait til sloonei gets off work. JJJ will throw logic and philosophy traps at you like you're a dart board at a biker bar. MP is always writing a thesis about something

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I was gonna say, if I want any hope of keeping up with discussion I need to post faster

Sorry, I'm simultaneously torn between being insanely hyped for this game and wanting to generate ALL OF THE CONTENT IN THE UNIVERSE to catch all the town reads so that I can eliminate the mafia as well as trying to pace myself a bit so that I don't flood the thread too much with content.

The former half I think is winning. I need to run a quick errand anyway, so I'll leave again for a bit.

Yeah, sometimes the instinct within is too powerful. I have tried to restrain myself and here I am with way too many posts.

[triceratopzeuhl]

ric, if Motherfucker = Redeemer role checks a baddie but fails the roll to kill them, will the rest of us know? Likewise if they role check a dead civ and fail the resurrect role

I'm unclear - the host should only answer your question if he is a motherfucker?

what

[Scotty]

ric, if Motherfucker = Redeemer role checks a baddie but fails the roll to kill them, will the rest of us know? Likewise if they role check a dead civ and fail the resurrect role

I'm unclear - the host should only answer your question if he is a motherfucker?

That's bullsuit to you, fella.

[triceratopzeuhl]

Who hasn't checked in yet? A Person, Lorab, Ninjuukyuwhatever, anybody else? (sorry if you did and I just missed your post)

[Golden]

You are just as bad as me if you think I am bad without elaboration.

Scotty just admitted he was bad. Lynch him!

Also I haven't looked at my role card yet. I'll do that when the game actually starts.

Hang on. Are you just claiming to be 'bad' like how one would in the 80s? You wouldn't know if you hadn't read your role...

[Scotty]

You are just as bad as me if you think I am bad without elaboration.

Scotty just admitted he was bad. Lynch him!

Also I haven't looked at my role card yet. I'll do that when the game actually starts.

Hang on. Are you just claiming to be 'bad' like how one would in the 80s? You wouldn't know if you hadn't read your role...

This logic puzzle you seem to be trying to solve is missing a few pieces.

I sure hope when I check my role you aren't my baddie partner. For both our sakes

[triceratopzeuhl]

Would sure be an easy win if the baddies just killed each other

[Golden]

You are just as bad as me if you think I am bad without elaboration.

Scotty just admitted he was bad. Lynch him!

Also I haven't looked at my role card yet. I'll do that when the game actually starts.

Hang on. Are you just claiming to be 'bad' like how one would in the 80s? You wouldn't know if you hadn't read your role...

This logic puzzle you seem to be trying to solve is missing a few pieces.

I sure hope when I check my role you aren't my baddie partner. For both our sakes

[Scotty]

O shit I just read we have to survive to win.



Goddamn you, Rico. You know I rarely live past the first few days

[Tangrowth]

You are just as bad as me if you think I am bad without elaboration.

Also I haven't looked at my role card yet. I'll do that when the game actually starts.

I'm interested in why MP is the self-proclaimed Mother Theresa this game, and is getting a pass for listing off civs.

And where are you getting that impression about me? Do you think my behavior has been suspicious? If so, what's your beef with me, man?

You made a series of posts back in 1996 (aka the first few pages of this game) where you expressed your lack of confidence in calling out people for being bad so you instead would resort to calling people good.

Anyone can call anyone good. You may be an idiot savant with calling people good correctly more often, but this isn't alignment indicative and I feel like it's an easy cop out for scum hunting.

Not to say you aren't scumhunting, but that pinged me hard.

Does not compute.

Both the orange statements and yellow statements seem contradictory within colors. Try me again.

[Epignosis]

MP's Super Tentative Day 0 POE Rainbow - GY!BE Rainbow #1

birdwithteeth11
DrWilgy
insertnamehere
timmer

A Person
Boomslang
Dom
Epignosis
Golden
JaggedJimmyJay
LoRab
Metalmarsh89
nijuukyugou
Scotty
sig
Sloonei
triceratopzeuhl
Vompatti

As much as my gut is feeling things about Golden and JJJ, still not ready to pull the trigger there. They have a higher threshold to meet in order to earn my gut's trust.

If you're green, awesome, my gut likes you. Keep it up because your spot will be gone if you don't. My gut is a fickle bitch.

Everyone else I feel nothing about. Make me feel something, lest you incur my wrath and gain my d1 vote.

Yep, that's right, kids. No red, orange, or even yellow in this rainbow. No mafia reads, just town reads, that's the POE way.

This is Not a Rainbow; It is Green Snot and Gray Snot

[Tangrowth]

[Dom]

I'm not sure you understand my meaning, Dom. I don't think Mac is tentative either way. Sloonei suggested my tentativeness is atypical, and I was drawing a distinction between myself and players (like Mac and Zebra) who will state confident reads on a Day 0.

I make reads on Day 0s which is itself perhaps atypical, but I don't act like they're authoritative.

got it.

[Dom]

honestly how does anyone have a read yet

Are there any of my reads you don't understand, or are you just lamenting that it is too early in the game to have assessed any reads of your own?

2nd one

Sloonei, I would question whether confidence would make sense in the contexts you've referenced. I made assertions based upon my best understanding of the discussions and that was it. I can't derive a confident read on INH, for example, based upon the point for which MP requested feedback. I said as much. I can provide a tentative lean by meta but little else.

I think the meta you're assigning to me is better associated with a Zebra or a Mac. I may exhibit confidence eventually, but everything is tentative on Day 0. This one especially has been a large portion of strategic debate (I'll accept a share of the blame for that) and check-ins. The capacity for generating meaningful reads out of that is limited.

would you call a bad mac tentative?
I don't really get the reference.

Scotty's accusation of me looks like a stance taken for the sake of taking a stance. That's less ideal.

but like do you even know scotty though

Do you know Scotty tho

No beef, mostly tofu

You see, I'm on a special diet of only civs and you aren't on the menu

Okay.

Why don't I satisfy your diet?

bc you served a bunch of bull product when you read MP as bad because he's posting a lot.

1. Why are you answering for Scotty?

2. That's an oversimplification of what I did that makes it sound worse than it was. I made a very specific numeral comparison to a game when MP was bad. It's not that he "posted a lot", it's that he utterly obliterated the count lead by a mile. He doesn't always manage quite that. It was something that concerned me in Transistor because I thought it might get him into trouble for being too tryhard. The memory came to me here so I poked him with it. I don't read him as bad. He warrants a little more poking than most other players because he does well to convey "genuine" effort regardless of alignment. I doubt it's the last time I'll poke him.

Why did Dom answer for me? I'm actually curious as well.

I think Dom is bad.

ok.

because i see jay slinging a fair amount of mud.

[LoRab]

Who hasn't checked in yet? A Person, Lorab, Ninjuukyuwhatever, anybody else? (sorry if you did and I just missed your post)

I did so check in!! I was the first to post!!!!! I just haven't had anything to add since then.

That said...and this is probably a stupid question (and I'll probably get flack for it, but whatever). But, uh, are we supposed to be doing anything? There's no poll, but is there any sort of day 0 exercise that I missed? Do we know how we get to day 1 (or night 1, depending on which comes first)?

[Epignosis]

Who hasn't checked in yet? A Person, Lorab, Ninjuukyuwhatever, anybody else? (sorry if you did and I just missed your post)

I did so check in!! I was the first to post!!!!! I just haven't had anything to add since then.

That said...and this is probably a stupid question (and I'll probably get flack for it, but whatever). But, uh, are we supposed to be doing anything? There's no poll, but is there any sort of day 0 exercise that I missed? Do we know how we get to day 1 (or night 1, depending on which comes first)?

LoRab is Not a Cold Dead Person

[sig]

Checking in, will post my thoughts on what has happened so far tomorrow.

[triceratopzeuhl]

Who hasn't checked in yet? A Person, Lorab, Ninjuukyuwhatever, anybody else? (sorry if you did and I just missed your post)

I did so check in!! I was the first to post!!!!! I just haven't had anything to add since then.

That said...and this is probably a stupid question (and I'll probably get flack for it, but whatever). But, uh, are we supposed to be doing anything? There's no poll, but is there any sort of day 0 exercise that I missed? Do we know how we get to day 1 (or night 1, depending on which comes first)?

my b

[DrWilgy]

Is Ninja bloopa here?!?

[Boomslang]

Yo Boomslang, my gut says you're yucky. What is your response to that?

Two words: Tofu Boy.

[Scotty]

Yo Boomslang, my gut says you're yucky. What is your response to that?

Two words: Tofu Boy.

Is that supposed to be directed at me?