GY!BE Mafia [E.N.D.]

[Marmot]

Epignosis gets a pass today.

Why?

I'll explain why I think he's definitely civilian (if he doesn't mind) when I get home.

Just now leaving the Bearcats' basketball game. What a thriller!!

I welcome your thoughts. Fuck whether he minds. We can't dick around with only 4 people alive. I ask though that if you're a civilian, please remove the word "definitely" from your vocabulary. This is likely to be the last phase of the game and we need to be as thorough as possible. I think there are serious problems with Epi's Dom interactions.

I will use the word definitely if I feel it applies.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

No you don't.

I do. You're not even trying.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I will use the word definitely if I feel it applies.

I'll see what you have to say about it.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Dom and Metalmarsh89

Dom's posts about Metalmarsh89:

Spoiler: show

My first ping of the day.

Timmer hadn't posted for about 24 hours

Boomslang asks timmer a question.

Timmer posts a mere 10 minutes later.

Unvote whoever I voted (on my phone, can't remember)

Vote Boomslang for now.

And here starts a suspiciion f MM
Why would you vote for boom in this scneario?
Wouldn't you vote for timmer?
Timmer's teammates would ahve had to alert him to the post. It doesn't guarantee boom is one of them. this logic is backwards.[/quote]

Day 1 suspicion of Marmot for the timmer/Boomslang timing thing.

Spoiler: show

so who are the good guys and who are the bad guys

MetalMarsh is a bad guy, Epignosis is a good guy.

I agree with this.

Restates the negative read on MM through Sloonei. / Again.

Spoiler: show

Question for the masses.

I make arbitrary and nonsensical votes, and nobody gives a shit.

I catch something I find suspicious and vote based on that, and people do give a shit.

For those of you whose read of me matches up with these statements, why is it so? I don't understand.

When you find things suspicious for nonsensical reasons like you did today it's a bad look.

"Nonsensical reasons" is strong language against MM.

Spoiler: show

@Dom, same reason as before.

My first ping of the day.

Timmer hadn't posted for about 24 hours

Boomslang asks timmer a question.

Timmer posts a mere 10 minutes later.

Unvote whoever I voted (on my phone, can't remember)

Vote Boomslang for now.

And here starts a suspiciion f MM
Why would you vote for boom in this scneario?
Wouldn't you vote for timmer?
Timmer's teammates would ahve had to alert him to the post. It doesn't guarantee boom is one of them. this logic is backwards.

I don't have a rebuttal. I changed my vote accordingly to match your logic (which I agree with).

Marshy, I'm sorry. I totally mixed up the two.

I still don't really understand why you suspect Timmer tbh

Dom backtracked hard from that suspicion in response to MM clarifying his vote switch.

Contests MM's comment to Epignosis.

Spoiler: show

Anyone who's here or is going to stop by during the night: Tell me a player you'd like to put more focus on for Day 3, and why?

birdwithteeth
metalmarsh
nju

Calls for more Day 3 focus on MM among these other two.

Spoiler: show

MM moved his vote from JJJ to BWT of all people, when he could have moved it to me to force a tie. Does this have anything to do with him saying he wanted to be lynched earlier? Does he have a protect or similar power?

The toothy bird is evil. His life should be taken before that of any marmot (especially the innocent Rosa). He's in league with the evil JagBear!

Why do you think BWT waited for others to vote you?

I don't know what the point of this question was -- he asked Marmot to read BWT's mind.

Same point made earlier -- he lamented that people weren't talking more about Marmot's suspicions of BWT.

Spoiler: show

Vote birdwithteeth

VLAKNI IXJDAK CXVQQ

Curse babble in response to MM's BWT vote, which I assume was meant to be approving. / Affirmed.

GTH town read on Day 5

Spoiler: show

@G-Man, I think trice is considered a civilian. His role is revealed either when he's checked by Motherfucker/Redeemer, when he is lynched, when ALFOTHAD dies, or when recruited. Since it was revealed upon trice's death, he could not have been recruited (I think we all realize this lol).

But also, the setlist has him listed in pink and green, which are the Indy and civilian colors respectively.

The role literally says independent.

Disagreement about how to judge trice's alignment.

~~~~~

Metalmarsh89's posts about Dom:

Spoiler: show

mm-- who's got your eye at the moment?

From what I've read, still timmer and Boomslang.

I won't get a chance to pursue further until tomorrow evening.

Answers Dom's prod for suspects. / More.

Clarifies his positive perspective of Epignosis in response to Dom's questioning.

Spoiler: show

timmer

nijuu, MP, and sig fall in the slight scumread category.

Golden and Jay fall in the tinfoil/Ineedlesscurseythingstojudge category, along with you.

I won't be voting for Epignosis, A Person, Boomslang, or Dom.


I don't have an opinion on anyone else.

Linki: Never mind, moving Sloonei to the red zone.

Pledged to not vote for Dom on Day 3.

Spoiler: show

timmer: the timing thing. Right now, it's the scummiest thing I've seen.

nijuu: her Day 2 vote. She voted Scotty because other people were talking about him, not because she read him as bad.
MP: He claimed that my accusation against timmer based on timing is historically inaccurate, but could not come up with an example (these two things don't go together)
sig: Similar to nijuu, his Day 2 vote.

Epignosis: I feel good about him
A Person: I like Epignosis's logic, in that AP would prefer to off a talkative player. Also, if I recall correctly, despite AP not posting much in thread, he is a pretty consistent presence in chatzy.
Boomslang: I've changed my mind about him
Dom: I like his work this game. He's not limiting himself to one-word questions and answers, but engaging with people (myself included) at length.

Expands on his civilian read on Dom -- appreciates his efforts to engage with people at length.

GTH good read on Day 3

Spoiler: show

I would also invite Boomslang, Dom, Epignosis, Sloonei, and timmer to the funeral.

The invitations will not be extended to JaggedJimmyJay, trice.

Others may or may not be permitted. I'm still stricken with grief.

Still positive on Day 4 when he invites Dom to the funeral.

Spoiler: show

And you know me. Is there anybody in the history of the Syndicate who's better at escaping lynches than I?

Linki: I don't think it's timmer, nor any of my other civ reads.

• Boomslang
  Dom
  Epignosis
  LoRab
  MovingPictures07
  Sloonei/Quin

Scotty deserves a look (I've been to busy to give it). Jay is still a baddie-read of mine, but that's a bit more subjective.

Night 4 civilian read.

Develops a code at Dom's behest when cursed again.

Reasserts civilian read on Dom.

Spoiler: show

I haven't said much about LoRab, you're right there. Dom falls in the same boat. Tell me why LoRab could be bad.

I'd also love to have my mafia reads progress, but the two people I wanted to lynch on Day 4 are still alive and won't die. That's difficult to move past.

Acknowledges that he hadn't talked much about Dom. It looks like a civilian read is being implied here though that's unclear.

~~~~~

Conclusion:

I would be more comfortable with this if I saw more evidence of a progressing read by MM on Dom. He arrived at a civilian read at an undefined point and didn't move from that during Dom's lifespan. I do think, however, that Dom's treatment of Marmot on Day 1 looks opportunistic -- he hounded him for the logical discrepancy, and then awkwardly bailed on that when Marmot explained his vote switch. That would represent pretty sloppy teammate behavior, and I think that's a decent look for MM.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If Dom was Sleep then I think Epignosis looks more like his teammate than the other two of you.

[Epignosis]

No you don't.

I do. You're not even trying.

Trying to do what?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

One concern I have about Epignosis is that Both LoRab and Quin colored him green on their simultaneous reads posts. The M=R role doesn't provide a method for them to arrive at a conclusive read though so I am not sure how they came to it. One possibility would be that one of them ID'd Epignosis and he didn't die. There's a percentage chance working in there though which means that's not clear.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

No you don't.

I do. You're not even trying.

Trying to do what?

Solve the game. Do something. Do anything. You're just giving me this bullshit retort without acknowledging anything I have to say.

[Epignosis]

No you don't.

I do. You're not even trying.

Trying to do what?

Solve the game. Do something. Do anything. You're just giving me this bullshit retort without acknowledging anything I have to say.

I spent all day moving. That's doing something. Even now my office isn't set up and I'm not doing that until morning.

But in my rocking chair by the fire, I will tell you that I don't believe you care about "Solving the Game." You didn't care about that when you lynched civilian after civilian despite my good reasons not to lynch them. You should also know that mafia tend to buddy up to me so they don't incur my righteous anger, but nope.

I'm sorry for ever letting up on you.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I spent all day moving. That's doing something. Even now my office isn't set up and I'm not doing that until morning.

But in my rocking chair by the fire, I will tell you that I don't believe you care about "Solving the Game." You didn't care about that when you lynched civilian after civilian despite my good reasons not to lynch them. You should also know that mafia tend to buddy up to me so they don't incur my righteous anger, but nope.

I'm sorry for ever letting up on you.

Who hasn't lynched civilian after civilian, or at least tried? You keep shoving my votes in my face as though anyone alive right now has a leg to stand on in that regard. There hasn't been a single lynch of a mafioso. WTF is your point?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Moreover, I don't believe that you really believe your "good reasons not to lynch people" are the damned Gospel. People disagree. That's weak fucking sauce. You don't like when your reads are ignored? You've ignored every single post I've made since Day 5. You're not thinking about my alignment at all. You already decided.

That's not how a civilian operates, not even you. You're showing no interest in exploration of other angles. You're showing no concern about the other two.

[Epignosis]

My point is you normally try to listen to fellow civilians. You are one of the few who make honest efforts to understand a civilian angle to a person's posts, but you didn't do that. You certainly never listened to me. You're not a civilian this time.

Hey 3J-

Who is the serial killer?

[Epignosis]

Moreover, I don't believe that you really believe your "good reasons not to lynch people" are the damned Gospel. People disagree. That's weak fucking sauce. You don't like when your reads are ignored? You've ignored every single post I've made since Day 5. You're not thinking about my alignment at all. You already decided.

That's not how a civilian operates, not even you. You're showing no interest in exploration of other angles. You're showing no concern about the other two.

Your disagreement wasn't genuine. There is no sauce.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

My point is you normally try to listen to fellow civilians. You are one of the few who make honest efforts to understand a civilian angle to a person's posts, but you didn't do that. You certainly never listened to me. You're not a civilian this time.

Hey 3J-

Who is the serial killer?

You're taking two lynches you didn't like and then casting an umbrella over my entire performance in this game. I have tried the best I can to listen to other people's perspectives. When I have agreed I have said so, and when I have not agreed I have said so.

The reasons you gave in defense of INH and A Person were either completely irrelevant to my suspicions or just plain crap. Your defense of A Person was based on his post count. You were on a team with reywaS in recent memory and know better than that logic.

I don't know who the SK is. I don't even know if the SK is alive. If it's one of you my first guess would be Marmot.

Mafia -- Epignosis
Civilian -- Wilgy
SK -- Marmot

If the SK is dead, Marmot is civilian.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Moreover, I don't believe that you really believe your "good reasons not to lynch people" are the damned Gospel. People disagree. That's weak fucking sauce. You don't like when your reads are ignored? You've ignored every single post I've made since Day 5. You're not thinking about my alignment at all. You already decided.

That's not how a civilian operates, not even you. You're showing no interest in exploration of other angles. You're showing no concern about the other two.

Your disagreement wasn't genuine. There is no sauce.

You haven't even talked about my disagreement.

Go back to that INH lynch and tell me how your defense of him had anything to do with my suspicion of him. Then tell me why your point was supposed to change my mind. You were talking to MP.

[Epignosis]

Moreover, I don't believe that you really believe your "good reasons not to lynch people" are the damned Gospel. People disagree. That's weak fucking sauce. You don't like when your reads are ignored? You've ignored every single post I've made since Day 5. You're not thinking about my alignment at all. You already decided.

That's not how a civilian operates, not even you. You're showing no interest in exploration of other angles. You're showing no concern about the other two.

Your disagreement wasn't genuine. There is no sauce.

You haven't even talked about my disagreement.

Go back to that INH lynch and tell me how your defense of him had anything to do with my suspicion of him. Then tell me why your point was supposed to change my mind. You were talking to MP.

I addressed you directly.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I addressed you directly.

Then show me how your point was relevant to my suspicion. Go on then.

[Epignosis]

Typically I look at CFDs when there is a combination of 1) late phase chatter makes me second guess my current vote and 2) another good option is readily visible. In this scenario I don't have #1.

My Point Didn't Change Your Mind

If I understand you correctly, your point reflects your perspective of how INH's behavior would or would not develop specifically in relation to his relationship with MP. Correct? I don't think that's the most meaningful thing because I don't think INH's approach ever changed so much as MP's interpretation of his play changed.

I ask 3J about my point changing 3J's mind, and 3J talks about MPs interpretation.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

My suspicion of INH was multi-faceted and not relevant to any perceived change in his behavior. I have since stated repeatedly that I didn't think his behavior even changed.

Spoiler: show

I might call INH the most difficult player for me to read on this roster, because I feel it is impossible to make that read without 1) being pushed by emotion in response to feeling like my play is being belittled and 2) over-reliance upon meta.

When I look at INH's posts in this game and judge them at face value, I see things that are suspicious. I see:

1) Mass, sweeping discredits of everyone who is making an effort
2) Implied but not conclusively stated defenses of perceived "bullzeye" targets
3) A lack of original hunting-relevant content despite a post history of moderate quantity and a few thick posts

These things are red flags in the most general sense. If I see them in a Mafia game thread, I tend to suspect those doing it. And yet, I feel like I've been here before with INH. The 1st and 3rd
items above are hallmarks of his play, and they've caused him to fall under fire repeatedly in recent games from me, from Sloonei, from Golden, and probably others. The 2nd item isn't one I'd call a "hallmark", though it may be a natural product of the 1st.

He was a baddie in Psych Mafia. There's the baseline to draw any comparisons and to qualify any reads. There's one post in particular:

So, it looks like the Day 1 crazies have set in, and I think that everyone's more than a little bit coo-coo right now. There seem to be weird suspicions directed from sig at Elo, Lorab, and SVS/Soneji that are based on what looks like literally nothing except minute Day 1 interactions and "Why are you defending him? Your defense is weird! You two must be teammates!" All of it seems incoherent, and none of it jives with me logically or emotionally.

Also, Wilgy has a Wilgy thingy-majigger against Dom, because presumably he just saw an episode of Sesame Street featuring the letter "D" and therefore the universe is telling him in a holistic manner that Dom must be scum.

The only vague Day 0/1 kerfuffle-ry that makes my eyebrow twitch is Scotty's "Tee-hee, I haven't even looked at my role card." combined with his fly-by vote for Sokoth and his weak suspicion reasoning against Sig. Not that I'm necessarily saying that I support sig, I just think that there are much more legitimate reasons to suspect him instead of "He usually doesn't post this much."

That post is from Psych Mafia, not this game.

I yellow-highlighted moments of familiarity. INH defended three people by implication by discrediting reads given by sig. A parallel can be drawn there to his discredits and implied defenses in this game. There's also the "none of it jives with me" thing wherein INH shoos away the notion that trying to make any real read on Day 1 isn't inherently a waste of time.

Also, I just saw that orange bit by chance and it bears an obvious connection to this game too. I'll look into that separately.

Compiling this post proved rather moving, actually. The parallels are tight, and regardless of meta face value problems should be acknowledged. I could get behind an INH lynch.

Epi's defense of INH was related to a perceived change in behavior asserted by MP, not me:

Spoiler: show

I initially thought INH seemed town because he seemed willing to move beyond our different approaches to the game and offer some fair criticism to the prospective manner in which I set out to approach this game.

Since then, however, INH has seemed intent to do the exact opposite, waging war against the very notion of meaningful d0/d1 content and engaging only to question the legitimacy of methods employed by other players instead of offering up anything much more than a proverbial shrug himself. It's been my natural inclination to shrug off the inherent scummy nature of these actions due to a meta-painted picture in my head of these stances being alignment-neutral for INH.

Demons You Call Angels Have No Reason to Behave Differently to Change Your Mind

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Typically I look at CFDs when there is a combination of 1) late phase chatter makes me second guess my current vote and 2) another good option is readily visible. In this scenario I don't have #1.

My Point Didn't Change Your Mind

If I understand you correctly, your point reflects your perspective of how INH's behavior would or would not develop specifically in relation to his relationship with MP. Correct? I don't think that's the most meaningful thing because I don't think INH's approach ever changed so much as MP's interpretation of his play changed.

I ask 3J about my point changing 3J's mind, and 3J talks about MPs interpretation.

Garbage. You said nothing about my suspicion of INH and that's what I told you.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Question for anyone who's still listening:

If I am a killing role, why the hell would I leave myself in a LyLo with Epignosis alive? WIFOM that all you like, it makes no fucking sense.

[Marmot]

Alright Jay, I'm home and compiling quotes for you.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Thank you.

[Epignosis]

Typically I look at CFDs when there is a combination of 1) late phase chatter makes me second guess my current vote and 2) another good option is readily visible. In this scenario I don't have #1.

My Point Didn't Change Your Mind

If I understand you correctly, your point reflects your perspective of how INH's behavior would or would not develop specifically in relation to his relationship with MP. Correct? I don't think that's the most meaningful thing because I don't think INH's approach ever changed so much as MP's interpretation of his play changed.

I ask 3J about my point changing 3J's mind, and 3J talks about MPs interpretation.

Garbage. You said nothing about my suspicion of INH and that's what I told you.

I gave you a reason to believe IMG was good, regardless of your "suspicion.". You ignored it. You didn't even entertain it. Why?

And if you will recall, I was the runner up for that lynch. If I'm bad, do you think I'd be fighting against the lynch of the guy in front of me? What was my motive there?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I gave you a reason to believe IMG was good, regardless of your "suspicion.". You ignored it. You didn't even entertain it. Why?

And if you will recall, I was the runner up for that lynch. If I'm bad, do you think I'd be fighting against the lynch of the guy in front of me? What was my motive there?

I literally told you why I didn't agree. The defense you gave of INH did not align with my perception of how he played this game. Your defense was all about a change in behavior that you and MP discussed. I didn't think his behavior changed in the first place. So again, why is that defense you provided supposed to be relevant to my suspicion of him? Why would that change my mind? It's not what I found suspicious about him.

You were the runner up and you also had a slew of late-phase defenders including me who vocally opposed your lynch and the people contributing to it. You had plenty of reason to feel comfortable.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

To clarify this with an example, Epignosis:

Suppose you suspect a player because you think his or her interactions with a dead mafioso look bad. You've looked over that material and that's the conclusion you've drawn.

Someone else steps in and says "I don't think his Day 4 vote is bad though."

Does that mean anything to you?

[Epignosis]

To clarify this with an example, Epignosis:

Suppose you suspect a player because you think his or her interactions with a dead mafioso look bad. You've looked over that material and that's the conclusion you've drawn.

Someone else steps in and says "I don't think his Day 4 vote is bad though."

Does that mean anything to you?

How is that comparable to what I said about INH? On Day 1. With no dead Mafioso?

[Marmot]

Epignosis talking about Boomslang

Spoiler: show

Seems both Golden and Jay are cursed or something. Well, that sucks.

^see above. Two curses on the same day, against players who were attracting some heat? And in a game in which of the roles indicated insanifying? I'm skeptical that both of the curses are genuine. It's just too easy to fake something that looks legitimate.

I Like This A Lot Because It Sounds Logical and Not Angry or Annoyed or Purple Monkey Dishwasher

The Boomerang Said What I Was Waiting to Hear Someone Else Say, Because it Was on My Mind

Linki: Casual glance at timmer reads authentic to me as well. The "also" and "also also" construction in his post is more casual than a baddie might use when discussing the finer points of strategy.

Been out all Saturday. Alas. But the thing that pinged me most all day was MM jumping down my/timmer's throat for a timing thing that would've been way too clumsy for baddie move. Voting there.

RIP, INH. Honestly, I hadn't spent much time looking at you or your case. I apologize for not further substantiating my thoughts on MM, but JJJ's explanation is pretty much my train of thought. Using a weak, time-based rationale that would've made the most sense for a timmer vote to vote me. I'll have to look at MM more closely in the next day phase.

Arrrgh, I thought I could catch up tonight. Making a long story short, I have a surprise job interview in middle-of-nowhere North Carolina that will eat up the rest of my day/early evening. Gonna vote Timmer because I disagree with the main wagons and think it would at least yield info on MM. I know this is a drive-by, but I don't have time for more.

I'm more than happy to lynch Boomslang.

Metal Marshes

Caution: If You Throw the Boomerang, it Will Come Back to Hit You in the Face

I have to leave to take a final, but do you guys need any more than this?

Linki: Casual glance at timmer reads authentic to me as well. The "also" and "also also" construction in his post is more casual than a baddie might use when discussing the finer points of strategy.

Been out all Saturday. Alas. But the thing that pinged me most all day was MM jumping down my/timmer's throat for a timing thing that would've been way too clumsy for baddie move. Voting there.

RIP, INH. Honestly, I hadn't spent much time looking at you or your case. I apologize for not further substantiating my thoughts on MM, but JJJ's explanation is pretty much my train of thought. Using a weak, time-based rationale that would've made the most sense for a timmer vote to vote me. I'll have to look at MM more closely in the next day phase.

Arrrgh, I thought I could catch up tonight. Making a long story short, I have a surprise job interview in middle-of-nowhere North Carolina that will eat up the rest of my day/early evening. Gonna vote Timmer because I disagree with the main wagons and think it would at least yield info on MM. I know this is a drive-by, but I don't have time for more.

He read timmer as town yesterday and voted for me. Then today he voted for timmer, with the hope of getting information about me.

Jay can't talk, but he can pull quotes with the best of them.

Don't Touch the Boomerang...I'm Warning You Real Good

Hey Little Bird, Do You Like Getting Lynched For Stupid Reasons?

No.

Which is why I'm not voting for AP, MP, or JJJ (even if he doesn't have any votes yet, he's certainly garnered suspicion). Or anyone else who has a vote today so far. I just don't see any other good cases outside of the one for Boomslang.

What about it makes it a stupid reason?

His Vote Was Rash and Poorly Thought Out, He Knew in Advanced He Wasn't Going to Be Around, and People Are Ganging Up on Him for an Inconsistency I Know Damn Well He Wouldn't Make if He Were In a League with Satan

Fine- Kill Boomer and I'll Be Back to Tell You I Told You Say and We Can Try This Again Tomorrow

Trice and JJJ? That's awesome to read.

Considering how the Wilgy lynch looks in the polls... do you think Boomslang is likely a civ, then? If I picture a baddie team with JJJ, and trice who voted B2B, it looks like that day's lynch was a gimme for them.

Boomslang is the Only Person Left Alive I Feel Confident is Good

In return, Boomslang townread Epignosis as long as he was alive, and also pursued a lynch of trice when Epignosis came under fire. Clearly (in my eyes) the two of them had BTSC and are likely civ partners in that respect.

[Epignosis]

I gave you a reason to believe IMG was good, regardless of your "suspicion.". You ignored it. You didn't even entertain it. Why?

And if you will recall, I was the runner up for that lynch. If I'm bad, do you think I'd be fighting against the lynch of the guy in front of me? What was my motive there?

I literally told you why I didn't agree. The defense you gave of INH did not align with my perception of how he played this game. Your defense was all about a change in behavior that you and MP discussed. I didn't think his behavior changed in the first place. So again, why is that defense you provided supposed to be relevant to my suspicion of him? Why would that change my mind? It's not what I found suspicious about him.

You were the runner up and you also had a slew of late-phase defenders including me who vocally opposed your lynch and the people contributing to it. You had plenty of reason to feel comfortable.

This is false. You are creating a narrative that suits you.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

To clarify this with an example, Epignosis:

Suppose you suspect a player because you think his or her interactions with a dead mafioso look bad. You've looked over that material and that's the conclusion you've drawn.

Someone else steps in and says "I don't think his Day 4 vote is bad though."

Does that mean anything to you?

How is that comparable to what I said about INH? On Day 1. With no dead Mafioso?

This is exactly the problem. That's a semantic question that shoves irrelevant context into an example.

The point:

You suspect player because of Reason A.

Someone else defends that player because they disagree with Reason B.

That's not why you're suspicious. It doesn't mean anything to you.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I gave you a reason to believe IMG was good, regardless of your "suspicion.". You ignored it. You didn't even entertain it. Why?

And if you will recall, I was the runner up for that lynch. If I'm bad, do you think I'd be fighting against the lynch of the guy in front of me? What was my motive there?

I literally told you why I didn't agree. The defense you gave of INH did not align with my perception of how he played this game. Your defense was all about a change in behavior that you and MP discussed. I didn't think his behavior changed in the first place. So again, why is that defense you provided supposed to be relevant to my suspicion of him? Why would that change my mind? It's not what I found suspicious about him.

You were the runner up and you also had a slew of late-phase defenders including me who vocally opposed your lynch and the people contributing to it. You had plenty of reason to feel comfortable.

This is false. You are creating a narrative that suits you.

Bullshit. I defended you. MP defended you. Sloonei defended you. Dom defended you. We were all loud and clear about that. You were never getting lynched on Day 1 so long as the four of us were there and so were you.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

MM: I'm looking into Boomslang's posts now for the sake of comparison.

[Marmot]

Jay, this is something I picked up on way back on Night 2. And you even asked me this question, to which I gave a vague answer.

I feel differently about you now

Why?

Why indeed.

The comment in question coming from this post.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

This looks to me like a player developing a read Epignosis and not one who already has him solved.

Spoiler: show

As I've said previously, I read Sloon as town.
Epi has given me nothing to go on because of the gimmick. I leave it to others more acquainted with his meta to determine if that's good or bad.
Sig doesn't have much, but I like his point about Dom and think his POE reasoning is valid. Leaning town.

As I've said before, Epi's gimmick renders him pretty much impossible to read at this point. I lean town for the sheer reason that he's not actively attempting to mislead the town's efforts in thread. Scotty seems authentically annoyed, and I like him avoiding the INH vote. I also like his challenges to BWT. Stronger town read than on Epi. And INH is, unfortunately, irrelevant at this point.

Epi's posts have gotten much less obtuse as the game has gone on, I'll give you that much. So I'm stepping back from the idea of obfuscation for now. And I agree that accuracy does not make alignment. But he actively pursued other targets (Epi, BWT, JJJ) in thread instead of just saying he disagreed with the inh lynch. He could've done more late in the day, but he did offer some potential alternatives if others would've taken them.

[Marmot]

This looks to me like a player developing a read Epignosis and not one who already has him solved.

Spoiler: show

As I've said previously, I read Sloon as town.
Epi has given me nothing to go on because of the gimmick. I leave it to others more acquainted with his meta to determine if that's good or bad.
Sig doesn't have much, but I like his point about Dom and think his POE reasoning is valid. Leaning town.

As I've said before, Epi's gimmick renders him pretty much impossible to read at this point. I lean town for the sheer reason that he's not actively attempting to mislead the town's efforts in thread. Scotty seems authentically annoyed, and I like him avoiding the INH vote. I also like his challenges to BWT. Stronger town read than on Epi. And INH is, unfortunately, irrelevant at this point.

Epi's posts have gotten much less obtuse as the game has gone on, I'll give you that much. So I'm stepping back from the idea of obfuscation for now. And I agree that accuracy does not make alignment. But he actively pursued other targets (Epi, BWT, JJJ) in thread instead of just saying he disagreed with the inh lynch. He could've done more late in the day, but he did offer some potential alternatives if others would've taken them.

If you had BTSC with a fellow civilian, would you state an unfounded trust in that player right off the bat?

Read on.

[Epignosis]

I gave you a reason to believe IMG was good, regardless of your "suspicion.". You ignored it. You didn't even entertain it. Why?

And if you will recall, I was the runner up for that lynch. If I'm bad, do you think I'd be fighting against the lynch of the guy in front of me? What was my motive there?

I literally told you why I didn't agree. The defense you gave of INH did not align with my perception of how he played this game. Your defense was all about a change in behavior that you and MP discussed. I didn't think his behavior changed in the first place. So again, why is that defense you provided supposed to be relevant to my suspicion of him? Why would that change my mind? It's not what I found suspicious about him.

You were the runner up and you also had a slew of late-phase defenders including me who vocally opposed your lynch and the people contributing to it. You had plenty of reason to feel comfortable.

This is false. You are creating a narrative that suits you.

Bullshit. I defended you. MP defended you. Sloonei defended you. Dom defended you. We were all loud and clear about that. You were never getting lynched on Day 1 so long as the four of us were there and so were you.

Yeah, all four of you really kept the masses off of me


Look at the Day 1 poll. I took my second and third votes AFTER INH had a lead. I did not ever think I was safe.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

This looks to me like a player developing a read Epignosis and not one who already has him solved.

Spoiler: show

As I've said previously, I read Sloon as town.
Epi has given me nothing to go on because of the gimmick. I leave it to others more acquainted with his meta to determine if that's good or bad.
Sig doesn't have much, but I like his point about Dom and think his POE reasoning is valid. Leaning town.

As I've said before, Epi's gimmick renders him pretty much impossible to read at this point. I lean town for the sheer reason that he's not actively attempting to mislead the town's efforts in thread. Scotty seems authentically annoyed, and I like him avoiding the INH vote. I also like his challenges to BWT. Stronger town read than on Epi. And INH is, unfortunately, irrelevant at this point.

Epi's posts have gotten much less obtuse as the game has gone on, I'll give you that much. So I'm stepping back from the idea of obfuscation for now. And I agree that accuracy does not make alignment. But he actively pursued other targets (Epi, BWT, JJJ) in thread instead of just saying he disagreed with the inh lynch. He could've done more late in the day, but he did offer some potential alternatives if others would've taken them.

If you had BTSC with a fellow civilian, would you state an unfounded trust in that player right off the bat?

Read on.

I wouldn't obfuscate other civilians' ability to determine that relationship by posting things like this. Please ask yourself how easy it is for Epignosis to create this impression for you, and also ask yourself how balanced that impression is between the two of them. Which player's posts are the biggest reason for your theory? Is it even?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Yeah, all four of you really kept the masses off of me


Look at the Day 1 poll. I took my second and third votes AFTER INH had a lead. I did not ever think I was safe.

You had three votes on you. Three.

Five votes staunchly opposed to your lynch.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Epignosis:

What do you think of Marmot and Wilgy?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Marmot, what do you think of Wilgy and I?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Wilgy: thoughts on all three please.

[Marmot]

This looks to me like a player developing a read Epignosis and not one who already has him solved.

Spoiler: show

As I've said previously, I read Sloon as town.
Epi has given me nothing to go on because of the gimmick. I leave it to others more acquainted with his meta to determine if that's good or bad.
Sig doesn't have much, but I like his point about Dom and think his POE reasoning is valid. Leaning town.

As I've said before, Epi's gimmick renders him pretty much impossible to read at this point. I lean town for the sheer reason that he's not actively attempting to mislead the town's efforts in thread. Scotty seems authentically annoyed, and I like him avoiding the INH vote. I also like his challenges to BWT. Stronger town read than on Epi. And INH is, unfortunately, irrelevant at this point.

Epi's posts have gotten much less obtuse as the game has gone on, I'll give you that much. So I'm stepping back from the idea of obfuscation for now. And I agree that accuracy does not make alignment. But he actively pursued other targets (Epi, BWT, JJJ) in thread instead of just saying he disagreed with the inh lynch. He could've done more late in the day, but he did offer some potential alternatives if others would've taken them.

If you had BTSC with a fellow civilian, would you state an unfounded trust in that player right off the bat?

Read on.

I wouldn't obfuscate other civilians' ability to determine that relationship by posting things like this. Please ask yourself how easy it is for Epignosis to create this impression for you, and also ask yourself how balanced that impression is between the two of them. Which player's posts are the biggest reason for your theory? Is it even?

Can you offer me two other players who are likely to be 09-15-00?

Boomslang wasn't around very much Day 2 (he was busy traveling or something I believe), and Epignosis strongly defended his lynch, post-after-post, knowing full well Boomslang wouldn't be around to defend himself. Boomslang responded Day 3 by defending Epignosis from the heat offered by trice. I don't think this is coincidence.

[Marmot]

Marmot, what do you think of Wilgy and I?

My vote is between you two, naturally.

I still suspect Wilgy for all the things I've stated before. That hasn't changed.

I think you are the SK. It could be sig, I'll admit that, but that possibility isn't very strong.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Can you offer me two other players who are likely to be 09-15-00?

Off-hand, no I can't. And I understand your perspective. There was never a statement of suspicion between the two, and Epi's defense of Boomslang was immediate. I don't think this is fully conclusive and I don't think it warrants a "definitely", but I understand. I like that you've been considering the notion for so long too. I'll see if I can find any other BTSC possibilities. Meanwhile I ask that you read my Dom/Epi interactive review and share your thoughts on that.

[Epignosis]

Epignosis:

What do you think of Marmot and Wilgy?

I've always been clear that I suspect MM since his survival. But that suspicion is rooted in how I design and balance games. I can't answer for Ricochet's approach. I naturally worry that he's trying to get me in his corner, but I don't think that's what's going on. Plus there is the timmer factor to consider. I am unlikely to vote for him.

I was not suspicious of birdwithteeth, but DrWilgy hasn't given me anything to work with, and it's too late for his eccentricities.

[Marmot]

Can you offer me two other players who are likely to be 09-15-00?

Off-hand, no I can't. And I understand your perspective. There was never a statement of suspicion between the two, and Epi's defense of Boomslang was immediate. I don't think this is fully conclusive and I don't think it warrants a "definitely", but I understand. I like that you've been considering the notion for so long too. I'll see if I can find any other BTSC possibilities. Meanwhile I ask that you read my Dom/Epi interactive review and share your thoughts on that.

Codswallop.

Yeah I'll look at it.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Epignosis:

What do you think of Marmot and Wilgy?

I've always been clear that I suspect MM since his survival. But that suspicion is rooted in how I design and balance games. I can't answer for Ricochet's approach. I naturally worry that he's trying to get me in his corner, but I don't think that's what's going on. Plus there is the timmer factor to consider. I am unlikely to vote for him.

I was not suspicious of birdwithteeth, but DrWilgy hasn't given me anything to work with, and it's too late for his eccentricities.

You think the SK is alive. You know Mladic is alive. Who are they?

[Marmot]

Conclusion:

Dom's read on Epignosis started great and stayed that way for his entire lifespan. He defended Epignosis constantly. In many cases that's not something that I'd find immediately problematic, but in this case we need to understand the player -- Epignosis. Has anyone ever naturally trusted him unconditionally in his entire Mafia career? Dom made no visible effort to explore his read on Epignosis or reassess it, it merely happened and never changed. Epignosis also said close to nothing about Dom and never made any clear read on him either. Indeed his most engaged treatment of Dom came when Dom was cursed.

Bad look.

To answer the underlined question, that's exactly what I've done this game, so yes.

Dom's read on me was very similar to this.



But I will admit, I'm having second thoughts about lynching DrWilgy ASAP based on your ISO of BWT/Dom interactions.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

To answer the underlined question, that's exactly what I've done this game, so yes.

Dom's read on me was very similar to this.

But I will admit, I'm having second thoughts about lynching DrWilgy ASAP based on your ISO of BWT/Dom interactions.

Did you feel that way about Epignosis before you devised that theory of BTSC? Dom's read started on Day 1 and never faltered.

[Marmot]

Epignosis:

What do you think of Marmot and Wilgy?

I've always been clear that I suspect MM since his survival. But that suspicion is rooted in how I design and balance games. I can't answer for Ricochet's approach. I naturally worry that he's trying to get me in his corner, but I don't think that's what's going on. Plus there is the timmer factor to consider. I am unlikely to vote for him.

I was not suspicious of birdwithteeth, but DrWilgy hasn't given me anything to work with, and it's too late for his eccentricities.

What is the timmer factor? My Day 1 suspicion?

Linki: I can't recall what I said about him before Night 2, but I'm pretty sure I didn't want to lynch him.