Mountain Mafia [END]

[Jackofhearts2005]

Is LC saying bogus things a scumtell?

Yes but imo, he's not doing so.

The post that inspired my question was about you:

Spoiler: show

I'll join nutella in her Jack vote for his scumslip.

wait what? is it him saying "a few good townies" or something else that I'm missing

When I asked him how his post was a scum tell, he said "I don't know" instead of "It's not a scumtell, and cannot be because I'm a Civ."

Is that not a bogus accusation?

I guess we're using "bogus" differently.

I think LC is being truthful and wrong in regards to that slip.

LC seeming to not actually believe his case is an LC tell.

Make sense?

[colonialbob]

Additionally, Nutella being town in my book means you could be one of two scummers instead of only one (Indy aside) so you're twice as likely to be bad. That was the main reason you were probably good.

Elaborate please?

Is the problem that my numbers are off due to misremembering the number of baddies in this game?

What's confusing/odd?

I don't understand the "one of two scummers instead of only one" statement at all.

[nutella]

wait how does me being town affect the number of possible baddie roles cbob could be? I have no idea where your logic is coming from there. I haven't even interacted with cbob at all, I keep forgetting he's even in this game and don't remember anything he's done/said

[speedchuck]

Just a friendly reminder that the buddying case on Epi was just the worst

why?

All Epi did was throw out a couple of names that pleased him, in one form or another, and said he wasn't going to vote them D1.

Burden of proof on you guys. Give me a valid reason that this is scummy behavior. It doesn't make sense as a long game. Calling what Epi did "buddying" is like calling a D1 vote "hate mongering".

It's hard to argue against something that doesn't make sense, as Epi found out, but if you can explain the case in a way that doesn't sound insane, I'll give you some nebulous speedchuck points and rescind my opinion.

I just figured it wasn't typical Epi behavior. Quin said the "ok I'm voting for Epi, do you guys know why" thing and I instantly understood that he was reacting to Epi naming townreads (or at least people he wouldn't vote for, whatever) since he posted it right after the post in question, and I took Quin's post to imply that he found that to be specifically unusual for Epi to do. I have nothing against naming townreads as a D1 behavior in general, but specifically Epi doing so felt out of character.

Ah, so it's a meta read? That's different.

*scours all the games I've played with Epi, focusing on D1 ISOs*

. . .



Fine, you can have a speedchuck point.


Tally
Nutella: 1 scp
Jack: -1 scp

[Jackofhearts2005]

I am the person Epi allegedly tried to intimidate on Day 1. He was not trying to intimidate me.

I was also the first person to bring up what has been dubbed his "buddying" of two players. I do not think this is a valid line of suspicion. It is on par with my Day 0 Daisy prod.

The case against Epignosis is a silly one.

What about the bits regarding bad handwaives of noncircular reasoning as circular reasoning and junk about "how does LC know those players are civs" etc?

Do you think Epi was being dishonest? Do you think any of that was alignment indicative?

[Jackofhearts2005]

Go ahead and elaborate on your read of me, while you're at it, Jack.

Didn't like the way you came in shooting at LC but then fell on Nutella.

I went back and looked at your posts. You were with LC practically the whole time. Lost some points with me there, mate. Twas a poor case.

As I recall, you ended up on Nutella too, so

Yeah. Cause (at a basic level) I agreed with LC that Epi was bad and thought she was handwaiving the case on Epi to cover for a teammate.

Why were you voting Nutella again?

[Jackofhearts2005]

Re: Wanting Epi to be good


Epi is being a lot nicer and I secretly crave his approval.

[Sloonei]

Is LC saying bogus things a scumtell?

Yes but imo, he's not doing so.

The post that inspired my question was about you:

Spoiler: show

I'll join nutella in her Jack vote for his scumslip.

wait what? is it him saying "a few good townies" or something else that I'm missing

When I asked him how his post was a scum tell, he said "I don't know" instead of "It's not a scumtell, and cannot be because I'm a Civ."

Is that not a bogus accusation?

I guess we're using "bogus" differently.

I think LC is being truthful and wrong in regards to that slip.

LC seeming to not actually believe his case is an LC tell.

Make sense?

I meant "bogus" both in that his statements do not make complete sense and that he may not always believe what he says. I'm unclear on where you stand on these issues, particularly as they relate to this post.

[speedchuck]

Go ahead and elaborate on your read of me, while you're at it, Jack.

Didn't like the way you came in shooting at LC but then fell on Nutella.

I went back and looked at your posts. You were with LC practically the whole time. Lost some points with me there, mate. Twas a poor case.

As I recall, you ended up on Nutella too, so

Yeah. Cause (at a basic level) I agreed with LC that Epi was bad and thought she was handwaiving the case on Epi to cover for a teammate.

Why were you voting Nutella again?

She wasn't LC.

LC was basically cleared in my eyes (as much as you can get on D1), and without my vote, he would have been lynched. Granted my vote came earlier, but I would have probably switched if I thought there was a better option at that moment in time.

linki: awww
linkiagain: lemme post

[Jackofhearts2005]

Additionally, Nutella being town in my book means you could be one of two scummers instead of only one (Indy aside) so you're twice as likely to be bad. That was the main reason you were probably good.

Elaborate please?

Is the problem that my numbers are off due to misremembering the number of baddies in this game?

What's confusing/odd?

I don't understand the "one of two scummers instead of only one" statement at all.

I miscounted the baddie team of four as a baddie team of three. If Epi and Nutella are bad, you have a 1/whatever chance of being bad. If only Epi is bad, you have a 2/whatever chance.

But it's actually 2/whatever and 3/whatever.

Like I said in that very post, everyone else would be statistically likely to be good based on that POE.

[colonialbob]

Additionally, Nutella being town in my book means you could be one of two scummers instead of only one (Indy aside) so you're twice as likely to be bad. That was the main reason you were probably good.

Elaborate please?

Is the problem that my numbers are off due to misremembering the number of baddies in this game?

What's confusing/odd?

I don't understand the "one of two scummers instead of only one" statement at all.

I miscounted the baddie team of four as a baddie team of three. If Epi and Nutella are bad, you have a 1/whatever chance of being bad. If only Epi is bad, you have a 2/whatever chance.

But it's actually 2/whatever and 3/whatever.

Like I said in that very post, everyone else would be statistically likely to be good based on that POE.

Yeah this is crap reasoning, that's not a particular reason for me to be town over anybody else.

[Sloonei]

I am the person Epi allegedly tried to intimidate on Day 1. He was not trying to intimidate me.

I was also the first person to bring up what has been dubbed his "buddying" of two players. I do not think this is a valid line of suspicion. It is on par with my Day 0 Daisy prod.

The case against Epignosis is a silly one.

What about the bits regarding bad handwaives of noncircular reasoning as circular reasoning and junk about "how does LC know those players are civs" etc?

Do you think Epi was being dishonest? Do you think any of that was alignment indicative?

I think the questions about LC "knowing" certain players were civ was Epi throwing LC's logic back in his face. LC built a case where he makes broad assumptions about Epi, so Epi returns the favor. That's just how I saw it and he can tell me I'm wrong.

I don't know what else you are referring to here.

[Sloonei]

Speedchuck, why is LC clear in your eyes?

[colonialbob]

Outside of lynching mafia, that was the best possible Day 1 outcome one could hope for.

In a vacuum, or after the way day 1 started?

[speedchuck]

(Basically I would think LC is scum but following such a stupid argument if he didn't genuinely see something in Epi is suicidal)

(And that's a town meta read on LC for me)

LC would not have, as scum, taken one of the danciest, hardest-to-lynch targets and formed a stupid argument to try and lynch him. My meta on LC says this sincere, earnest, and suicidal lynchlust comes from a town headspace.

And seriously, who would target Epi as their easy D1 lynch?

Motive-wise, it makes zero sense for LC to be scum outside of tinfoil land.

[Sloonei]

(Basically I would think LC is scum but following such a stupid argument if he didn't genuinely see something in Epi is suicidal)

(And that's a town meta read on LC for me)

LC would not have, as scum, taken one of the danciest, hardest-to-lynch targets and formed a stupid argument to try and lynch him. My meta on LC says this sincere, earnest, and suicidal lynchlust comes from a town headspace.

And seriously, who would target Epi as their easy D1 lynch?

Motive-wise, it makes zero sense for LC to be scum outside of tinfoil land.

LC and Epi have a history of this sort of thing. It's within LC's meta to go after him like this. And LC is also one of the boldest scum players we'll see, according to legend. I get the impression that he's willing to do just abot anything.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Is LC saying bogus things a scumtell?

Yes but imo, he's not doing so.

The post that inspired my question was about you:

Spoiler: show

I'll join nutella in her Jack vote for his scumslip.

wait what? is it him saying "a few good townies" or something else that I'm missing

When I asked him how his post was a scum tell, he said "I don't know" instead of "It's not a scumtell, and cannot be because I'm a Civ."

Is that not a bogus accusation?

I guess we're using "bogus" differently.

I think LC is being truthful and wrong in regards to that slip.

LC seeming to not actually believe his case is an LC tell.

Make sense?

I meant "bogus" both in that his statements do not make complete sense and that he may not always believe what he says. I'm unclear on where you stand on these issues, particularly as they relate to this post.

The first would be generally bad indicative. The later would be largely bad indicative.

Related to this? I just think LC is wrong. I don't slip.

[Jackofhearts2005]

[mention]speedchuck[/mention]

Remind me why you're clearing LC. I remember you being a detractor of his case and pursuit of Epi so why do you think he's good?

[Jackofhearts2005]

Additionally, Nutella being town in my book means you could be one of two scummers instead of only one (Indy aside) so you're twice as likely to be bad. That was the main reason you were probably good.

Elaborate please?

Is the problem that my numbers are off due to misremembering the number of baddies in this game?

What's confusing/odd?

I don't understand the "one of two scummers instead of only one" statement at all.

I miscounted the baddie team of four as a baddie team of three. If Epi and Nutella are bad, you have a 1/whatever chance of being bad. If only Epi is bad, you have a 2/whatever chance.

But it's actually 2/whatever and 3/whatever.

Like I said in that very post, everyone else would be statistically likely to be good based on that POE.

Yeah this is crap reasoning, that's not a particular reason for me to be town over anybody else.

Go read my post again. Literally said nobody should listen to my town read of you.

Making excuses?

[speedchuck]

@speedchuck

Remind me why you're clearing LC. I remember you being a detractor of his case and pursuit of Epi so why do you think he's good?

(Basically I would think LC is scum but following such a stupid argument if he didn't genuinely see something in Epi is suicidal)

(And that's a town meta read on LC for me)

LC would not have, as scum, taken one of the danciest, hardest-to-lynch targets and formed a stupid argument to try and lynch him. My meta on LC says this sincere, earnest, and suicidal lynchlust comes from a town headspace.

And seriously, who would target Epi as their easy D1 lynch?

Motive-wise, it makes zero sense for LC to be scum outside of tinfoil land.

Third time's the charm

[speedchuck]

And LC is also one of the boldest scum players we'll see, according to legend. I get the impression that he's willing to do just abot anything.

Please gimme an example

[colonialbob]

Additionally, Nutella being town in my book means you could be one of two scummers instead of only one (Indy aside) so you're twice as likely to be bad. That was the main reason you were probably good.

Elaborate please?

Is the problem that my numbers are off due to misremembering the number of baddies in this game?

What's confusing/odd?

I don't understand the "one of two scummers instead of only one" statement at all.

I miscounted the baddie team of four as a baddie team of three. If Epi and Nutella are bad, you have a 1/whatever chance of being bad. If only Epi is bad, you have a 2/whatever chance.

But it's actually 2/whatever and 3/whatever.

Like I said in that very post, everyone else would be statistically likely to be good based on that POE.

Yeah this is crap reasoning, that's not a particular reason for me to be town over anybody else.

Go read my post again. Literally said nobody should listen to my town read of you.

Making excuses?

Nope. Just didn't get your reasoning and then thought it was bad. But the LC-related reasoning was better so really I'm kinda picking at small details here. Taking a step back, your read of me is genuine enough I think.

[Sloonei]

And LC is also one of the boldest scum players we'll see, according to legend. I get the impression that he's willing to do just abot anything.

Please gimme an example

an older syndicate veteran would be able to answer this better.

[Jackofhearts2005]

One time, LC claimed quadruple cop who found the whole mafia on night one, then got four townies lynched but nobody though he was bad cause it seemed too ballsy of a play. In fact the serial killer got him cause he thought LC was confirmed town.

True story.

[speedchuck]

One time, LC claimed quadruple cop who found the whole mafia on night one, then got four townies lynched but nobody though he was bad cause it seemed too ballsy of a play. In fact the serial killer got him cause he thought LC was confirmed town.

True story.

link pls

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I'm doing a "read 3 pages, watch 1 Punisher episode" routine. The episode is supposed to be reward for reading the pages.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Hey does anyone know what time zones belong to each of the 19 of the players? Or a close estimate?

UTC-2. Until February.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

colonialbob -- don't know
Dom -- eastern
Dragon D. Luffy -- eastern i think (brazil)
DrWilgy -- don't know
Elohcin -- eastern
Epignosis -- eastern
Glorfindel -- uhh I forget
Jackofhearts2005 -- don't know
Kylemii -- pacific
Long Con -- eastern
Mesk514 -- don't know
MovingPictures07 -- central
nutella -- pacific
Quin -- oz
sig -- don't know
Sloonei -- eastern i think?
Spacedaisy -- central
speedchuck -- not sure
sprityo -- not sure

Eastern USA is UTC-5 in the winter, -4 in the summer.

Brazil is -3 in the winter, -2 in the summer.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

@Elohcin
@Dragon D. Luffy

Who kind of wants to vote for Epi?

People that think Epi is scum but are voting for someone they also think is scum don't count. Who are the vultures?

You guys really like names don't you.

[Sloonei]

@Elohcin
@Dragon D. Luffy

Who kind of wants to vote for Epi?

People that think Epi is scum but are voting for someone they also think is scum don't count. Who are the vultures?

You guys really like names don't you.

Yes. Why make an accusation if it's not really directed at anyone?

[Dragon D. Luffy]

y'all talk too much

I'm not voting for Dom on Day 2. For this is the best post in the thread.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

@Elohcin
@Dragon D. Luffy

Who kind of wants to vote for Epi?

People that think Epi is scum but are voting for someone they also think is scum don't count. Who are the vultures?

You guys really like names don't you.

Yes. Why make an accusation if it's not really directed at anyone?

Because the point was not to make an accusation. It was to defend Epi.

Anyway, once i'm catch up I'll humor you. I'll give the list of everyone who gave me that feeling. Just don't expect me to have reads on them. Not my style.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I also lean trusting on jack and speed so I like the Nutella lynch

I lean on suspecting you. This post gives me a bad vibe.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I hate this argument about ties.

One of Kyle and Jack is bad.

Calling it now.

[Sloonei]

@Elohcin
@Dragon D. Luffy

Who kind of wants to vote for Epi?

People that think Epi is scum but are voting for someone they also think is scum don't count. Who are the vultures?

You guys really like names don't you.

Yes. Why make an accusation if it's not really directed at anyone?

Because the point was not to make an accusation. It was to defend Epi.

Anyway, once i'm catch up I'll humor you. I'll give the list of everyone who gave me that feeling. Just don't expect me to have reads on them. Not my style.

But your defense of Epi implies that other players are being shady. You can't have the defense without any accusations.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I've said my piece on today's lynch. Plenty of other people haven't provided much content so I'll give them a chance to catch up or speak.

I'll be lurking until EOD in case anyone has questions or I need to move my vote.

This post gives me a very political vibe.

I hate politicians.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

@Elohcin
@Dragon D. Luffy

Who kind of wants to vote for Epi?

People that think Epi is scum but are voting for someone they also think is scum don't count. Who are the vultures?

You guys really like names don't you.

Yes. Why make an accusation if it's not really directed at anyone?

Because the point was not to make an accusation. It was to defend Epi.

Anyway, once i'm catch up I'll humor you. I'll give the list of everyone who gave me that feeling. Just don't expect me to have reads on them. Not my style.

But your defense of Epi implies that other players are being shady. You can't have the defense without any accusations.

If there is a horde of players being shady I can guess some of them are bad but I don't know which ones.

[Sloonei]

@Elohcin
@Dragon D. Luffy

Who kind of wants to vote for Epi?

People that think Epi is scum but are voting for someone they also think is scum don't count. Who are the vultures?

You guys really like names don't you.

Yes. Why make an accusation if it's not really directed at anyone?

Because the point was not to make an accusation. It was to defend Epi.

Anyway, once i'm catch up I'll humor you. I'll give the list of everyone who gave me that feeling. Just don't expect me to have reads on them. Not my style.

But your defense of Epi implies that other players are being shady. You can't have the defense without any accusations.

If there is a horde of players being shady I can guess some of them are bad but I don't know which ones.

I'm still not seeing any names.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

sloonei
nutella
LC

There, just looked at the thread and listed the people.

Now imma go back to catch up.

[Sloonei]

sloonei
nutella
LC

There, just looked at the thread and listed the people.

Now imma go back to catch up.

How do you feel about each of us now?

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I don't like this Epi lynch. Feels like there's a bunch of scum surrounding him like vultures waiting to see if they can lynch him or not. Lots of people "kind of" wanting to vote for him.

At this stage, I had two votes for sure (LC and Quin).

DDL made a sweeping accusation of people who had not voted for me. He voted Sloonei at one point for "fence-sitting," but then voted nutella. His votes are thus quite consistent with his posts, except for this:

I've just noticed something, after reading Bob's "vote early/often" expression.

In a standard NF game I change my vote 3-4 times every phase, give or take. I vote often and boldly.

But here I feel like I have some restraint voting, perhaps because of the first games I played in this forum that didn't allow changing votes.

I've been having better results as a civ there than here, so I'll try to keep that in mind. I should vote more often.

I don't understand why this post exists.

Because going to the Speakeasy takes too many extra clicks.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Okay so I'm 13 pages in and I'm getting sleepy. When I get sleepy I get stupid. I'll read the rest tomorrow.

I'll leave a "rainbow":

quin - civ
speed - civ
eloh - civ
bob - civ

LC - bad
nutella - bad
jack - bad
sprityo - bad

rest - neutral/idk

linki: holy shit Sloonei you ninja'd me

[Epignosis]

Just a friendly reminder that the buddying case on Epi was just the worst

See above.

[Epignosis]

Or the previous page.

[Epignosis]

What I do find confusing Jack is why you both believe Epi is bad and at the same time said you agree with him that Nutella is bad and your vote ended on Nutella. Where do you stand currently on Epi?

*eyebrow raise*

I thought I agreed with Epi on Night 1 that Nutella was good. If Epi agreed with me she was bad, that coincidental. My D1 Nutella read predated him taking a loud stance on her.

I still think Epi is bad. I want him to be good but the buddying and trying to scare people off him instead of hunting and pretending to not understand the case on him (misrepresenting LC) are still there so he's still bad imo.

Does it ever occur to you that...

...I'm only "buddying" somebody if I'm bad? (Circular argument)
...Scaring people off me is only a bad thing if I'm bad? (Circular argument)
...Not "hunting" is only your perspective because you assume I'm bad? (Circular argument)
...I'm not pretending to not understand the case on me because the case is circular bullshit?

You don't want me to be good. You want me to be bad.

Saying someone is acting bad assumes they really are bad. Otherwise, you're misinterpreting.

Ergo, all scumhunting is bunk.

Assuming someone is bad and then assigning evil motivations to everything he does isn't hunting. It's bullshit.

That's what Long Con did. I have to be bad in order to "buddy" someone (stupid word used in the context of mafia, might I add- "pocket" is a far superior, grown-up term). If I'm not bad, then I can't possibly be pocketing anybody, and the argument is circular bullshit. You have to assume I'm bad to believe I'm pocketing anybody. You cannot prove I am pocketing anybody until you have established that I am bad. You cannot do that without lynching me.

Or is that too much cause and effect for you?

[Epignosis]

OR RIGHT HERE. Stupid posts getting hung up.

[Epignosis]

Just a friendly reminder that the buddying case on Epi was just the worst

why?

All Epi did was throw out a couple of names that pleased him, in one form or another, and said he wasn't going to vote them D1.

Burden of proof on you guys. Give me a valid reason that this is scummy behavior. It doesn't make sense as a long game. Calling what Epi did "buddying" is like calling a D1 vote "hate mongering".

It's hard to argue against something that doesn't make sense, as Epi found out, but if you can explain the case in a way that doesn't sound insane, I'll give you some nebulous speedchuck points and rescind my opinion.

I just figured it wasn't typical Epi behavior. Quin said the "ok I'm voting for Epi, do you guys know why" thing and I instantly understood that he was reacting to Epi naming townreads (or at least people he wouldn't vote for, whatever) since he posted it right after the post in question, and I took Quin's post to imply that he found that to be specifically unusual for Epi to do. I have nothing against naming townreads as a D1 behavior in general, but specifically Epi doing so felt out of character.

I don't understand people's perception of me.

I have been identifying people I find good for almost a year or more now as a means of whittling down a mass of people in trying to find a sensible place to put my vote each Day. I also actively look for reasons why a person should not be lynched.

Doing those things now for a long time. I don't understand how that is out of character.

Here, however, I only found one person good for a minor reason Day 1 (Mesk) and nobody else. One.

[Epignosis]

I see Elohcin!

I still feel like you were voting epi for a nonsense reason which is what mafia will do.

Would love some content from you outside of LC v Epi.

Okay, I've finally caught up instead of folding laundry as a good wife and mother would. I am overwhelmed with all the info.

I like daisy this game and feel she is civ. She seems to be genuinely scum-hunting. At first, I liked her accusations...thoyght they could be valid. After catching up though, and tonanswer her question to me, I feel Epi is being genuine. I actually believe him that he is trying to be nicer and back off on the insults. Everything he has said is true. When he referred to not voting for bob and mesk on day 1...he never did say he thought they were good. And he is right about being falsly accused of liking to bus teammates early in a game. His meta doesn't show that he likes to do that often.

I gave a reason why I found Mesk good only. Not colonialbob.

[Epignosis]

I am the person Epi allegedly tried to intimidate on Day 1. He was not trying to intimidate me.

I was also the first person to bring up what has been dubbed his "buddying" of two players. I do not think this is a valid line of suspicion. It is on par with my Day 0 Daisy prod.

The case against Epignosis is a silly one.

What about the bits regarding bad handwaives of noncircular reasoning as circular reasoning and junk about "how does LC know those players are civs" etc?

Do you think Epi was being dishonest? Do you think any of that was alignment indicative?

I think the questions about LC "knowing" certain players were civ was Epi throwing LC's logic back in his face. LC built a case where he makes broad assumptions about Epi, so Epi returns the favor. That's just how I saw it and he can tell me I'm wrong.

I don't know what else you are referring to here.

Correct. It could be argued that LC was "buddying" ( ) Mesk, colonialbob, and Sloonei by calling them all civilians in one post. My point was "That's hypocritical bullshit, dude."

[Epignosis]

Outside of lynching mafia, that was the best possible Day 1 outcome one could hope for.

In a vacuum, or after the way day 1 started?

In this setup.