Street Fighter II Mafia [ENDGAME]

[Long Con]

Not yet, but I'll be sure to let you know when I do.

[Diiny]

people i distrust: sloo, eloh, squid, mp.

will elaborate when home from work.

[speedchuck]

JoH was killed by the mafia. Thus:

MP is most likely town. If he were on a scumteam that was planning to kill Jack, he wouldn't have wasted a scumread on the guy. Rather, MP would have townread Jack and agreed with any wrong assumptions jack made until he died. I'm not even assuming optimal play here. MP wouldn't waste the time looking for a scumread on a guy he's going to kill.

Just to put forth an alternate opinion, since you seem very sure of this one: when I'm on a bad team, especially night 1, deciding on who to kill is usually something that happens after the lynch is done. If MP07 is bad, then I doubt that he crafted his posts around who was going to be killed night 1. I don't agree with your clearing of him, based on that.

Well, here's another way at looking at it: If MP is bad, he knows JoH is good. For him to suspect JoH like he did would mean he has some hope of making JoH look bad, I.E. making him a mislynch.
If MP thinks he can get JoH mislynched, why would he kill JoH?
I am leaving out some factors. Perhaps teammates drove the decision. Perhaps JoH shone so brightly on night 1 that MP gave up on the prospective shade-casting and just killed him. But I don't think so.

MP isn't cleared, for sure. But I'm not voting him today barring some change in circumstances.

linki: This isn't really an argument I'd shoot down with "but wifom, though." Scum isn't going to base their entire nightkill on some weird backward motive play based on the day's previous posts.

[Sloonei]

people i distrust: sloo, eloh, squid, mp.

will elaborate when home from work.

Not yet, but I'll be sure to let you know when I do.

I look forward to both of these things.

[malakim2099]

I appreciate the clarification RE: everything, @malakim2099, thank you. Care to share your top 2 or 3 suspects with us all?

Just had a whole ton of work dropped on me IRL (I finished my work, but someone else didn't so I got all her leftover work now). And I'd rather take the time to back things up with quotes instead of saying "so and so" is suspicious to me, considering last night's discussion. Just didn't want you thinking I was ignoring you.

Yeah, maybe I'm taking this a little too seriously, but I want to make a good impression.

Though, the recent flame up between MP and Dom/LC was interesting to me. Will dig a bit more into that and get back to you.

[Elohcin]

Frame job for sure.

Who framed you?

Someone who is reading enough of the thread to be able to know JoH thought I'm bad. But also someone who thought it was a possibility that other players would believe the frame job as true. Who could that be?

[Sloonei]

Night kill analysis is not my forte. I've been scum twice in like three years. But I am intrigued by your suggestion that you were framed, Eloh. Do you feel that you were definitely framed, or are you merely suggesting it as a possibility because somebody else brought it up?

[Tangrowth]

I won't be around until the early evening Central/Eastern time at the earliest.

I haven't caught up but I want to emphasize that I'm still feeling strongly about Dom. Since I know I won't be around until closer to the deadline, I wanted to take a handful of minutes here to clarify as clearly as possible why I suspect Dom as strongly as I do. So here's my interpretation of the exact train of events as it went down, and I want some outside opinions on this (barring they haven't come already and aren't going to anyway) to see what you all think -- and significantly, make sure I'm not just tunneling because it's about me, so I'm curious as to whether any of you all agree that (1) this is indeed how it went down and (2) this is suspicious, because I feel that it's important.

Dom: I believe MP is being dishonest about his feelings re: LC. (He said this not only here but again here in a very assertive/strongly worded fashion.)

MP: I request that you explain how you came to this conclusion -- because I cannot discern how you did so and this is important as to make a determination as to whether you are lying or not. (I said this here after he made the assertion twice as referenced above.)

Dom: Restate your feelings on LC (succinctly, specifically in 10 words or less) so that I can better explain myself. (He said this here.)

MP: You avoided answering my question, and I feel that is suspicious. I will not acquiesce to your request to summarize because you made the assertion accusing me of dishonesty, therefore it is your responsibility to expand on how you reached that conclusion. reference

Dom: I refuse to acquiesce to your request and I double down on my assertion that you're bullshitting. reference

MP: You STILL haven't answered the question. This is suspicious. The burden of proof is on you to explain why you think my LC thoughts are disingenuous. reference

Why would a townie not make any effort at all to clarify? I admittedly have a long history with Dom (he played my first game ever 7 years ago and we consistently butt heads because we approach things differently), but I see absolutely no reason why Dom would behave this way at all if town. Literally everything is textbook scum. Dom makes an assertion that I'm full of crap, but he can't explain it. And now I feel as though, now backed into a corner because I called him out on it, Dom is doubling down on his original assertion that I'm full of shit re: LC, and instead of even briefly trying to explain where he was coming from, he refuses to, and therefore I have every reason to believe he is the one full of shit, and is trying to turn this into a one vs. one argument so that he doesn't have to explain himself -- because he can't. Because he fabricated his opinion. Townies don't care about consistency; they care about getting to the truth. Baddies are much more apt to be consistent in my view; at least when townies are consistent they are able to explain their train of thoughts -- which is EXACTLY what Long Con did when I went back and forth with him over and over and precisely why I'm town reading him. Because LC seemed genuinely interested in convincing others of that fact and in engaging me. Dom doesn't seem concerned with ANY of that at all; instead, he falls back into consistency because it's all he has to play at this point, and he's not trying to convince anyone, he just keeps barking his opinion with little persuasion.

This is important because I feel extremely strongly about this, but I am aware of how I easily can go down rabbitholes as town and lose sight of something to a fault and mislynch a townie, so if you all aren't seeing any of this, I feel as though I need to know why. Because I feel as though we have a 98% chance of lynching a scum in Dom at this moment.

I'll be back later to investigate other things because I feel as though I've taken this as far as I can -- for now I really need to refocus on the PhD. Thanks to everyone else who has contributed other discussion thus far. Let's make this as productive a D2 as possible.

[Sloonei]

I don't object to your interpretation of events, [mention]MovingPictures07[/mention], but I need to hear Dom explain himself a bit better before I put him on the chopping block. He's made an assertion which has gone unsubstantiated to this point. It's certainly possible that you're a liar. I'd like to hear how he came to this conclusion.

That said, I'm not sure I'll be around when the time comes. I am once again working tonight, so I'll miss the deadline. I swear I'm going to be here for a deadline eventually.

I'd also still like to hear from Niju, or any thoughts people might have about this post I made last night.

[Sloonei]

A loose rainbow

MovingPictures

dunya
Speedchuck
diiny
Elohcin
Long Con

JJJ
DFaraday
DrWilgy
Simon

malakim
Dom
niju

MP is my top town read and dunya's not far behind. I like what I've seen from speedchuck and diiny but I need to see more of it, especially in diiny's case. He got off to a hot start but has faded a bit. I'm eager to hear his expanded thoughts later. Eloh and LC are GTH reads. I never read them as well as some of the more seasoned Syndicate veterans, but for the moment I don't feel like either of them are lying to me.
I lumped Jay and Simon in with our two silent players because . Jay did standard Jay things when he was here, but that doesn't tell me anything, and I'm not sure how to read Simon.
malakim has answered my first round of questions well enough, but in the absence of any stronger suspects he makes it to the light orange part of my rainbow. His initial read of Elohcin struck me as a fine bit of waffling. Dom needs to answer some things, and I've shared my little bit of thoughts on ninja blooper already, awaiting response.

[Elohcin]

Night kill analysis is not my forte. I've been scum twice in like three years. But I am intrigued by your suggestion that you were framed, Eloh. Do you feel that you were definitely framed, or are you merely suggesting it as a possibility because somebody else brought it up?

Its what I immediately thought when reading the results last night. But I didn't say anything because I figured people would shoot down the idea and just claim I was bad.

[Sloonei]

Night kill analysis is not my forte. I've been scum twice in like three years. But I am intrigued by your suggestion that you were framed, Eloh. Do you feel that you were definitely framed, or are you merely suggesting it as a possibility because somebody else brought it up?

Its what I immediately thought when reading the results last night. But I didn't say anything because I figured people would shoot down the idea and just claim I was bad.

Why was it your first thought?

[dunya]

im so sorry for my lack of contribution today, but i have a migraine and high fever and have been sleeping it off and working from home when i could work. i will post more asap.

[dunya]

leaning town
MovingPictures
sloonei
speedchuck
Elohcin
Simon
dom
JJJ
diiny

leaning scum
niju
malakim
Long Con

not sure...havent read any real posts from either user? inactive?:
DFaraday
DrWilgy

[dunya]

Dom is bad, folks. Let's lynch him please. He's flinging bullshit opinions he can't even back up.

lol

You can't summarize your thoughts onto LC into a single sentence. It's because it's a hodgepodge of bullshit that you're going around your ass to get to your elbow to create.

But sure. The person that you, earlier tonight, said was making good points is now bullshitting because they're challenging you.

both reactions from this exchange as someone neutral to both parties strikes me as frustrated townies going at each other. Can definitely understand dom's concerns, but I feel like MP reacted defensively out of frustration to not being able to get his point through (he really has written a lot about LC, and I daresay summarizing doesn't seem to be his forte ). I do think MP mirroring and basically calling dom scum because he called him scum first is defensive frustration, and exactly what scum team wants. let's not get tunnel vision and remember there's more than one target so as strongly as you think you feel about one person, don't waste ALL focus on that person.

This has leveled you both up as town reads to me, tbh. There's more to why I feel dom is town, which I'll get into separately.

[dunya]

can we perhaps ask all players to post itt when they cast a vote or change their vote. I find it very useful and important to see the order and patterns of voting when catching scum. I feel very confused when I just see a tally up there.

That said, I have cast an initial vote on blooper

[dunya]

Hence part of my suspicion of MP and his accusations of LC falling flat.

As MP may or may not tell you, he actually defended me.

To avoid misinterpretation or whatever: I believe this is mild buddying.

Just to be clear: You believe what is mild buddying, what JOH is doing or what I am doing or something else?

Sorry, my friend, but I meant you. You like direct references, I've noticed, so I'll pull some instances up.

That said, I hesitate to scumread LC. I see your point, dunya, but I'm just not sure it means we're seeing scum!LC here.

Sometimes, when I'm trying to discern someone's motivations, I like to play a little game. I imagine the worst thing they could do, and then see if their actions support that conclusion. In this post, baddie MP applies nice mild buddying, while supporting the point that dunya made and was suspicious of. Further discussion of the topic also matches the profile of a baddie MP who, on one hand he kept the idea of my lynch in people's minds by discussing it a lot, and on the other hand he thought I was town and would say "RIP LC. I thought you were town."

To reiterate/clarify a point I made earlier: I don't think Jack was being serious about his desire to vote for me. His temptation to vote for me boiled down to a "That's racist, man!" joke. I read nothing into it. That it was then picked up, apparently, by speedchuck and Long Con is something worth pursuing in the absence of anything more substantial.

Linki x100: Stop posting so I can post!

I think I agree, but I simultaneously also hesitate to scum-read speedchuck or LC for doing something so brazen. Again this is anecdotal, but in my mind more often than not, most people who play scum roles try everything possible to get the spotlight off of them on Day 1, not put it on them. And what speedchuck and LC did was risky if they're scum.

Again: Agree, but also they're not maybe not scum. But it was brazen and risky.

MP POE Rainbow List #1 - Day 1
dunya
Jackofhearts2005
Simon
Sloonei

Bass_the_Clever
DFaraday
Diiny
Dom
DrWilgy
Elohcin
Long Con
JaggedJimmyJay
malakim2099
nijuukyugou
speedchuck

I won't vote for any of the four green players today.

I could theoretically vote for any of the grey, but I'm feeling hesitant about voting LC or speedchuck. I can't call them town reads but I'm not jumping to eliminate them either.

Again, that dual opinion. A lynch candidate, and a "but I'm hesitant". Do you see the theme here, MP? Do you think I would find more if I keep looking?

somehow, I have a feeling LC wants us to lynch MP. if we do, there's no way he could be scum attacking a player that's defending him right?
reverse psychology and all that.

Man I've been in games where one member of the scum team publicly named another member of his scum team and got him lynched to win the game. Merciless players, and the whole Littlefinger method doesn't help me see you in a better light LC

[dunya]

you will notice i've moved jjj and diiny down my list, because I haven't had a chance to see new contributions of JJJ to new developments and I get wishy washy feelings towards diiny which I'll investigate further to make sure I haven't missed anything major.

[Elohcin]

Night kill analysis is not my forte. I've been scum twice in like three years. But I am intrigued by your suggestion that you were framed, Eloh. Do you feel that you were definitely framed, or are you merely suggesting it as a possibility because somebody else brought it up?

Its what I immediately thought when reading the results last night. But I didn't say anything because I figured people would shoot down the idea and just claim I was bad.

Why was it your first thought?

Because JoH has been after me.

[dunya]

JoH was killed by the mafia. Thus:

MP is most likely town. If he were on a scumteam that was planning to kill Jack, he wouldn't have wasted a scumread on the guy. Rather, MP would have townread Jack and agreed with any wrong assumptions jack made until he died. I'm not even assuming optimal play here. MP wouldn't waste the time looking for a scumread on a guy he's going to kill.

Just to put forth an alternate opinion, since you seem very sure of this one: when I'm on a bad team, especially night 1, deciding on who to kill is usually something that happens after the lynch is done. If MP07 is bad, then I doubt that he crafted his posts around who was going to be killed night 1. I don't agree with your clearing of him, based on that.

Well, here's another way at looking at it: If MP is bad, he knows JoH is good. For him to suspect JoH like he did would mean he has some hope of making JoH look bad, I.E. making him a mislynch.
If MP thinks he can get JoH mislynched, why would he kill JoH?
I am leaving out some factors. Perhaps teammates drove the decision. Perhaps JoH shone so brightly on night 1 that MP gave up on the prospective shade-casting and just killed him. But I don't think so.

MP isn't cleared, for sure. But I'm not voting him today barring some change in circumstances.

linki: This isn't really an argument I'd shoot down with "but wifom, though." Scum isn't going to base their entire nightkill on some weird backward motive play based on the day's previous posts.

this is a exactly why MP seems town to me too. plus he's really been putting his balls out there. I think he's a very defensive player though, and takes being called scum when he's town as an attack. it's because he's put so much effort and emotion into it, and frustrates him even more. i've been there, i've been in games where i knew for a fact who a scum was and everyone else was pointing fingers at me so i started getting offended and rude to them, because JFC i'm doing everything a Townie should why can't you see that?!

so basically, that's the sort of effort and exasperation MP's posts are to me. Townie seal of approval from dunya.

[nijuukyugou]

Shit, I nearly forgot I was playing this. I need a nap and gotta get several things done before I can catch up. Sorry for practically disappearing for a day or so - work was stupid busy yesterday and today.

[nijuukyugou]

I found a thing. @nijuukyugou

I'm gonna go write for a bit. I'm looking at people who don't stand out, toeing that line of participating and contributing. Too many Days 1 with voting the weirdo.

Linki - I am Blooper! :waves:

In this post you mention some vague unnamed people at whom you are looking, but you never mention any of these people by name. Can you point to anybody who is or was playing with this particular low-key style?

But then later, this:

Okay, cool.

I don't feel great about lurker voting on Day 1, but it's what I feel most comfortable with at this juncture. I'm still open to being persuaded though.

Whom would you vote if you couldn't vote for Bass or another lurker with me?

Probably either JJJ or speed for the votes on Sloonei for the Dhalsim thing. I'm wary of voting that way for the "look at me, I'm standing out on Day 1!" reasons I stated earlier. I want more info, and I like that playing is happening and want to keep it that way for today.

This seems to be the exact opposite of your previously stated line of thought. Whereas you'd previously stated that you're wary of people who don't stand out on Day 1, here you seem to be saying that you are wary of players for standing out too much on Day 1. Which is it? Or are you just wary of anything with a pulse around here?

also i'll point out again that Jay certainly did not vote for me because of what I had to say about Dhalsim, so it strikes me as odd that you would state a suspicion based on something that didn't actually happen. Could you clarify or elaborate on elaborate on what you mean here?

Nap complete. Saw votes on me, then saw a post referring back to this, so I shall respond in this bit of time.

First point: I was referring to no one specifically at the time - my plan was to wait and see who would pop in and out of the water throughout the day, but then my vote ended up on Bass because I wanted to feel out MP's vote and because I didn't like the votes on you and wasn't gonna vote that way.

Second point: you misunderstand my meaning in that sentence, but I see where the ambiguity lies in my wording - I was referring to my desire not to vote for players who stand out, twice. I didn't like their votes on you because they voted precisely the reason/way I DIDN'T want to vote. And I am aware JJJ didn't vote bc of the Dahlsim matter - once again, I was referring to voting for a stand out, but it looks as though I lumped them both together for the same voting reason.

I hope that makes sense, but I can explain it differently if my thoughts need clearing up.

[dunya]

were you town or scum on that romance of the three kingdoms, [mention]nijuukyugou[/mention]

[Elohcin]

Thats the shortest nap I've ever seen.

[speedchuck]

While I follow your train of thought, Blooper, trust me on this: I'm not doing wacky crap to show out on D1 just because you were looking for the opposite. I don't WIFOM for just one person.

I do it for everyone. I am the WIFOM master.

[dunya]

i'm sorry i cant contribute more, i really am sick. i read a few old games in hopes of getting a gleam into people's playstyle and it's been useful but im dying

[Sloonei]

Thats the shortest nap I've ever seen.

Apparently squids are much more efficient sleepers than us humans.

[speedchuck]

i'm sorry i cant contribute more, i really am sick. i read a few old games in hopes of getting a gleam into people's playstyle and it's been useful but im dying

Don't die.

And don't despair about your contributions. I'm pretty sure you've done a lot today.

[speedchuck]

I could vote Eloh to try my luck with nightkill analysis, or Dom. I'll vote before dayend, but I don't think I'll be around for it. Considering.

[Sloonei]

Blooper's response does address the points that I was concerned about and I can see where my misinterpretation stems from. I feel slightly better in that regard, but there's nothing she said that compels me to read her as town. She's closer to neutral than scum than she was earlier, at least.

Instead I'll place my vote on Elohcin. Her reaction to the nightkill is not sitting well with me.

Boo Mafia!!!

Her initial reaction is a hollow "I don't like this, mafia are jerks!" comment. This sort of post always rings false to me. The she makes a few other posts about unrelated game things, and when Speedchuck presents his thoughts on the kill, speculating on how Elohcin may or may not be implicated in it, Eloh hops on it with a rather strong stance:

Frame job for sure.

I pressed her on this, and her responses were not particularly illuminating and as I've thought about it I've been feeling less inspired by it. It strikes me as if she is trying to share as little of her thoughts as she can get away with, and I don't like that:

Spoiler: show

Who framed you?

Someone who is reading enough of the thread to be able to know JoH thought I'm bad. But also someone who thought it was a possibility that other players would believe the frame job as true. Who could that be?

Night kill analysis is not my forte. I've been scum twice in like three years. But I am intrigued by your suggestion that you were framed, Eloh. Do you feel that you were definitely framed, or are you merely suggesting it as a possibility because somebody else brought it up?

Its what I immediately thought when reading the results last night. But I didn't say anything because I figured people would shoot down the idea and just claim I was bad.

Seems like backtracking. There is no evidence of her thinking this until someone else brought it up long after her initial reaction to the kill

Why was it your first thought?

Because JoH has been after me.

The vaguest answer possible, reducing the nightkill down entirely to an issue of her position in this game. Seems a bit paranoid to me.

I have to go in a half hour now (jeez it took longer to make this post than I wanted), so I'd like to hear some thoughts on this before I go. What do people think of Eloh?

[Sloonei]

i'm sorry i cant contribute more, i really am sick. i read a few old games in hopes of getting a gleam into people's playstyle and it's been useful but im dying

you've done more than enough already today. go get better, being sick is the worst.

[Sloonei]

It does not look like I will be around to get any clarification from Dom. There's still plenty of time for him to get on and make some noise, but I won't be around to hear it until later. What do we all think of Dom at this point?

[Sloonei]

I could vote Eloh to try my luck with nightkill analysis, or Dom. I'll vote before dayend, but I don't think I'll be around for it. Considering.

What's being considered? Think out loud if you can!

[Sloonei]

I appreciate the clarification RE: everything, @malakim2099, thank you. Care to share your top 2 or 3 suspects with us all?

Just had a whole ton of work dropped on me IRL (I finished my work, but someone else didn't so I got all her leftover work now). And I'd rather take the time to back things up with quotes instead of saying "so and so" is suspicious to me, considering last night's discussion. Just didn't want you thinking I was ignoring you.

Yeah, maybe I'm taking this a little too seriously, but I want to make a good impression.

Though, the recent flame up between MP and Dom/LC was interesting to me. Will dig a bit more into that and get back to you.

malakim also promised us an in depth look at the MP/Dom relationship when he's able. I appreciate his commitment here. Make sure he sticks to it.

[speedchuck]

malakim possible w/w with Eloh. Would rather lynch Eloh than malakim I think. Positive results will spur a look at malakim.

Gotta say I'm not huge on lynching blooper or LC

I'll leave my vote on Eloh for now. Sorry I can't be active more around dayend. Family.

[Tangrowth]

I should be here pretty much until the deadline now. I'll catch up and then see what other work there is to be done. I'd like to dig into some more ISOs even if not thoroughly before EoD.

[Sloonei]

malakim possible w/w with Eloh. Would rather lynch Eloh than malakim I think. Positive results will spur a look at malakim.

Gotta say I'm not huge on lynching blooper or LC

I'll leave my vote on Eloh for now. Sorry I can't be active more around dayend. Family.

Could you explain your thinking here?

[Tangrowth]

RIP JOH. Clearly I was wrong about you, thanks for a good effort.

VOTES DOM

BBL.

I feel like I was pretty sudden in my accusation of you... but I think you are trumping me, with intent ferocity, in your Dom accusation and vote.

Well, you're probably right, this is a classic "pee move" on my part, so to speak.

[Tangrowth]

Sorry, my friend, but I meant you. You like direct references, I've noticed, so I'll pull some instances up.

That said, I hesitate to scumread LC. I see your point, dunya, but I'm just not sure it means we're seeing scum!LC here.

Sometimes, when I'm trying to discern someone's motivations, I like to play a little game. I imagine the worst thing they could do, and then see if their actions support that conclusion. In this post, baddie MP applies nice mild buddying, while supporting the point that dunya made and was suspicious of. Further discussion of the topic also matches the profile of a baddie MP who, on one hand he kept the idea of my lynch in people's minds by discussing it a lot, and on the other hand he thought I was town and would say "RIP LC. I thought you were town."

Littlefinger's game is pure tunneling, and if you apply it to mafia you'll be the only townie in a sea of scum. If this is how you're looking at MP, it's no wonder you have a scum read on him.

I've only read up to this post so far, but i'm going to share one thought before I go any further: MP is town on volume alone. Nobody puts up this much fake content so quickly and effortlessly.

As much as I appreciate the vote of confidence, and I would concede that I have difficulty matching my usual insane volume as mafia because I have to fabricate it all, if I were you I wouldn't clear me based on that alone. Everyone should be assessed and reassessed constantly. I'm sure you'll be doing that though if you are town!Sloonei, so I'm probably saying this all for nothing.

[Tangrowth]

Speedchuck cast an interesting vote that no one is talking about. He voted for Long con to "facilitate an alternate bandwagon" to Bass, despite not having any personal reason to vote for LC. I am leaning toward liking this move. It's a bit bold and suggests that he is not overly concerned with his appearance and any potential scrutiny he might face and, while i don't ever encourage blind bandwagoning, I like that he took a stand which allowed the lynch to remain somewhat more open than if I had just hammered home another vote on the Bass wagon, in absence of a real suspicion to call his own.

Simon and dunya also voted for LC. Dunya's vote was early and she supported herself well. I don't recall seeing Simon explain his vote. Anyone have thoughts on any of these things?

I appreciate you exploring this and I agree with your perspective. I also like speedchuck's recent posts exploring Elo as bad and in general it seems to me he cares about trying to solve the game. I have a town read for speedchuck.

I also believe dunya and Simon are on the level, but I need to explore dunya's content a bit more and I need Simon to post more things.

I am leaning town on dunya, in part because I agree with the notion that she seems to not have BTSC. She's had lots of questions about minor cultural/technical things here, which suggests that We The People are her best resource to go to as she adjusts to playing in a new place, rather than any teammates behind the scenes. It's been a long time since I played with her, and I suppose she could be crafty enough to deliberately leave these sorts of questions in the thread to keep us off her trail, but I'm gonna categorize that as unlikely at this stage.

I've never played with Simon before and don't know what to expect when reading his posts. And like I said before, I don't really remember seeing his reasoning for voting Long Con, so I can only really shrug at his vote right now. I'd ask if you have any specific thoughts on him, but I assume I'll get my answer before I finish catching up.

I agree with your thoughts on dunya. I am a bit paranoid of her given that her legendary status, but I haven't seen anything alarming from her at this time.

Did you have any thoughts about what I said re: Simon here and here? I know it's not much, but it's something. I do prefer to have something current from him though.

[Sloonei]

I'm off to work now. Sorry to miss yet another deadline. At least I can work comfortably in the knowledge that MP won't let the thread go quiet.

[Tangrowth]

Okay, caught up! Read a lot deeper here, and these are my impressions, based on what I've read.

Diiny - I liked his vote for Sloonei, and I liked his bulldogging around on D1. Pretty sure he's a townie or civ or whatever you call them here.

MP - Actually, in retrospect, I take back what I was saying about him. Reading it closer, the posts appear pretty well reasoned (or are meant to look reasoned, but then that's the I know that you know that I know that you know game). Overall, scaling back the suspicious thoughts of him. Pretty sure he's townie/civ too. I do appreciate the elaboration that yes, this is his normal play.

JoH - Fairly confident in his play here, but it's different than his Realms play to a degree.

Sloonei -Seemed to keep it low-key despite the pressure he was under, which this early seems to be civ-ish to me.

Elochin - Having trouble getting a read. She was helpful, but then that's a great way to seem civ-ish too.

Long Con - I don't know if this is a thing, but I know I've gotten really defensive when accused early in a game when I was a scummer elsewhere. And... well, I'm not familiar with the player. But it feels like he's reacting the way I did in those situations, which makes me feel a little twitchy.

Simon - Considering LC had enough on him to merit a vote, I don't like Simon's fixation on the poll and E Honda-hating D0 to vote for LC. Especially when there was the split between Sloonei or Bass, and this feels like a random vote when you could go one way or the other.

Anyway, that's the general impressions I have so far after taking the time to take a deep read. I need to figure out multiquoting on here, or do you just do it the old-fashioned way with lots of copy/pasta?

A couple more questions, malakim! We've never played together before, so I am intrigued and want to pick your brain. You note that JoH's play here was "different" from his more familiar style on your homesite. Even though he's dead now, could you explain what this means? What differences did you perceive in his gameplay on Day 1?

You also say that Eloh has been "helpful" but then you waffle and turn your whole read into what amounts to a shrug. It doesn't seem like there is much of a read here, really. Could you point to specific examples of Eloh being "helpful" or any moments that give you any doubts about her?

This is a nice observation I hadn't picked up. I am intrigued to know hear the answers to this if they haven't come already. I generally don't like to jump the gun and project teammate stuff too early, but that would be a believable/understandable way for malakim to talk about his mafia teammate.

[Tangrowth]

I'm off to work now. Sorry to miss yet another deadline. At least I can work comfortably in the knowledge that MP won't let the thread go quiet.

Ah, man! You do what you have to do. Sorry we missed each other though. Thanks for the efforts today. As I continue to catch up I'll keep responding to your stuff if I feel it's warranted; just get to them whenever.

[Tangrowth]

I found a thing. @nijuukyugou

Spoiler: show

I'm gonna go write for a bit. I'm looking at people who don't stand out, toeing that line of participating and contributing. Too many Days 1 with voting the weirdo.

Linki - I am Blooper! :waves:

In this post you mention some vague unnamed people at whom you are looking, but you never mention any of these people by name. Can you point to anybody who is or was playing with this particular low-key style?

But then later, this:

Okay, cool.

I don't feel great about lurker voting on Day 1, but it's what I feel most comfortable with at this juncture. I'm still open to being persuaded though.

Whom would you vote if you couldn't vote for Bass or another lurker with me?

Probably either JJJ or speed for the votes on Sloonei for the Dhalsim thing. I'm wary of voting that way for the "look at me, I'm standing out on Day 1!" reasons I stated earlier. I want more info, and I like that playing is happening and want to keep it that way for today.

This seems to be the exact opposite of your previously stated line of thought. Whereas you'd previously stated that you're wary of people who don't stand out on Day 1, here you seem to be saying that you are wary of players for standing out too much on Day 1. Which is it? Or are you just wary of anything with a pulse around here?

also i'll point out again that Jay certainly did not vote for me because of what I had to say about Dhalsim, so it strikes me as odd that you would state a suspicion based on something that didn't actually happen. Could you clarify or elaborate on elaborate on what you mean here?

Blooper should clarify, but the way I read these statements was compatible, not the opposite. I hadn't thought of it this way. Now I'm a bit confused.

[Tangrowth]

I was hoping I'd have time for more ISOs but my brain is fried and sentences are getting harder to type. I'm intrigued by the sudden developments between Dom & MP and I look forward to some follow up from and about them. I am still inclined to read MP as town, but his strong reaction against Dom stands out a lot. I'd like to hear more from Dom before I offer a read on him. Give me lots of stuff to read over breakfast tomorrow, folks.

To clarify: Do you find my sudden Dom suspicion suspicious? The "but" indicates that it's a reason you wouldn't be reading me as town.

[Tangrowth]

just random thoughts as I continue to read: alakim's answers to Sloonei seem legitimate/genuine at first glance to me.

[Tangrowth]

malakim* rather

[Tangrowth]

Now....as for the game, I'm a little overwhelmed. Did Dom just come out of nowhere? Or ia that just me? And sloonei is really starting to make opinions now. But there are atill so many quiet players. We must not forgwt about them.

I have a horribly busy day with work, school, an appointment, a play date, and another mafia game I'm in. I will be back later hopefully with an opinion on who I think is bad. For now, I think all the names being thrown around are civ.

What does this mean?

Which names specifically? "All" is a bit unclear.

[malakim2099]

Just popping in on phone for a second to respond to this as I stay caught up:

I don't buy that MP totally thinks you're civ for a second.

Why not? I'm in the elite green of his list, and he's stated more than once that he doesn't think I'm bad, if I recall correctly.

I don't see that as genuine for a second.

Can you explain what specifically leads you to that conclusion? I need to try to figure out whether you're just painting me with a mafia brush opportunistically or whether you genuinely believe I'm being dishonest, and I can't do that if all you say is you don't find my read of LC to be genuine and don't elaborate.

Perhaps you could answer some questions for me about it to better explain myself.

In ten words or less (TEN WORDS OR LESS): why is LC good?

No. You're not deflecting this back onto me. I've spoken about LC at length and you're the one who made the statement accusing me of dishonesty. You made an assertion and stated it more than once that you don't buy my read of LC to be genuine. That means the burden of proof is on YOU to substantiate that claim, because you already apparently read what I said enough to make a strongly worded judgment that you think I'm lying. Therefore it's your responsibility to explain yourself, otherwise you're just slinging mud baselessly and that's incredibly suspicious.

(The broken quote was bothering the #### out of me there. Had to fix that.)

This is the post that caught my eye, really. Been thinking about this. I highlighted LC's response because I really don't like that defense of "well, I'm cleared by MP!" It just seems akin to the cop hitting a person that has a town cloak and them going, "Hey, look, I'm town because so-and-so proved it!" You aren't saying you're town because of what you've done, but rather because what other people are presuming. Honestly, this reads to me like both Dom and MP are town, though I'd say Dom is moreso than MP in THIS post, if only because MP gets defensive about speaking at length. HOWEVER...

MP does follow up today with this post.

I won't be around until the early evening Central/Eastern time at the earliest.

I haven't caught up but I want to emphasize that I'm still feeling strongly about Dom. Since I know I won't be around until closer to the deadline, I wanted to take a handful of minutes here to clarify as clearly as possible why I suspect Dom as strongly as I do. So here's my interpretation of the exact train of events as it went down, and I want some outside opinions on this (barring they haven't come already and aren't going to anyway) to see what you all think -- and significantly, make sure I'm not just tunneling because it's about me, so I'm curious as to whether any of you all agree that (1) this is indeed how it went down and (2) this is suspicious, because I feel that it's important.

Dom: I believe MP is being dishonest about his feelings re: LC. (He said this not only here but again here in a very assertive/strongly worded fashion.)

MP: I request that you explain how you came to this conclusion -- because I cannot discern how you did so and this is important as to make a determination as to whether you are lying or not. (I said this here after he made the assertion twice as referenced above.)

Dom: Restate your feelings on LC (succinctly, specifically in 10 words or less) so that I can better explain myself. (He said this here.)

MP: You avoided answering my question, and I feel that is suspicious. I will not acquiesce to your request to summarize because you made the assertion accusing me of dishonesty, therefore it is your responsibility to expand on how you reached that conclusion. reference

Dom: I refuse to acquiesce to your request and I double down on my assertion that you're bullshitting. reference

MP: You STILL haven't answered the question. This is suspicious. The burden of proof is on you to explain why you think my LC thoughts are disingenuous. reference

Why would a townie not make any effort at all to clarify? I admittedly have a long history with Dom (he played my first game ever 7 years ago and we consistently butt heads because we approach things differently), but I see absolutely no reason why Dom would behave this way at all if town. Literally everything is textbook scum. Dom makes an assertion that I'm full of crap, but he can't explain it. And now I feel as though, now backed into a corner because I called him out on it, Dom is doubling down on his original assertion that I'm full of shit re: LC, and instead of even briefly trying to explain where he was coming from, he refuses to, and therefore I have every reason to believe he is the one full of shit, and is trying to turn this into a one vs. one argument so that he doesn't have to explain himself -- because he can't. Because he fabricated his opinion. Townies don't care about consistency; they care about getting to the truth. Baddies are much more apt to be consistent in my view; at least when townies are consistent they are able to explain their train of thoughts -- which is EXACTLY what Long Con did when I went back and forth with him over and over and precisely why I'm town reading him. Because LC seemed genuinely interested in convincing others of that fact and in engaging me. Dom doesn't seem concerned with ANY of that at all; instead, he falls back into consistency because it's all he has to play at this point, and he's not trying to convince anyone, he just keeps barking his opinion with little persuasion.

This is important because I feel extremely strongly about this, but I am aware of how I easily can go down rabbitholes as town and lose sight of something to a fault and mislynch a townie, so if you all aren't seeing any of this, I feel as though I need to know why. Because I feel as though we have a 98% chance of lynching a scum in Dom at this moment.

I'll be back later to investigate other things because I feel as though I've taken this as far as I can -- for now I really need to refocus on the PhD. Thanks to everyone else who has contributed other discussion thus far. Let's make this as productive a D2 as possible.

Now, to me, this is a pretty persuasive argument, and he does a lot of citations. If he's a scummer, he's a very INVOLVED scummer, and I don't know his scum vs town style, as I haven't had a chance to review past games. However, I feel that he's town from this and previous posting, as I think that if he was scum, he'd have worked harder to put my feet to the fire.

So [mention]Sloonei[/mention] to answer your question of who I'm leaning towards as scum! Hah, see, I get there eventually.

My main suspects right now (and keep in mind these are suspects, if they post and give me answers, I can go through and rethink things):

Simon (though there are valid RL concerns, but I'm not completely convinced with him)
Long Con (the defense highlighted above, it just seems like "MP gave me a clean bill of health!" without really proving a defense)
Dom (Don't like their side of the argument back and forth with MP. It felt like MP was giving examples and their response was "whatever")

Also, a little tweaky about dunya, just because I think he either missed the vote button or he's being passive-aggressive to me.

can we perhaps ask all players to post itt when they cast a vote or change their vote. I find it very useful and important to see the order and patterns of voting when catching scum. I feel very confused when I just see a tally up there.

That said, I have cast an initial vote on blooper

But you put the vote on me.

Which is fine, it's still 4 hours-ish in the day, but I think it's a little goofy that you said that we should be clear on where we vote and everything... and then you place the vote elsewhere without posting that you changed it. I'm guessing that you placed the vote by mistake since Blooper (seriously, blooper? where do you get these names?!?) is right next to me on the list and you're feeling migrainey?

Going out to dinner now, will be back in about 60-90 mins.

[Tangrowth]

JoH was killed by the mafia. Thus:

MP is most likely town. If he were on a scumteam that was planning to kill Jack, he wouldn't have wasted a scumread on the guy. Rather, MP would have townread Jack and agreed with any wrong assumptions jack made until he died. I'm not even assuming optimal play here. MP wouldn't waste the time looking for a scumread on a guy he's going to kill.

Eloh doesn't look good from this, though it could be a framing job. JoH was the only player who really questioned/suspected Eloh. To kill him is either exactly what it looks like (mafia Eloh shutting him up), or someone who wants us to think that.

Malakim could be Eloh teammate.

Rainbow incoming.

I mean, you're right about me; I hadn't considered anything like that though as I generally stay clear away from NKA as I feel it's too WIFOMy for me. I think this is an intriguing and helpful analysis though. Is there anyone else that might have had motive to kill JOH other than Elo? malakim perhaps because they know each other's meta well?