Fiddler on the Roof Mafia

[JaggedJimmyJay]

3J, do you use a mouse?

90% of the time yes

Your quote problems suggest a broken mouse, which automatically double clicks. I replace mine every six months.

Probably. This thing is old as shit.

[Sloonei]

Vote for me.

voting for someone who isn't likely to be lynched is wasting a vote

I've given a read on Jay. I also have a strong town read on Speedchuck and a mild town read on Mac.[/quote
okay so you've given 3 negative reads today I guess that means you're not tunneling, my bad

would you like to present a case against me?

what I would like is for you to stop wasting my time so I can figure out who to actually vote for during this day phase where my life is on the line

we have three hours and things are very much up in the air. If I'm a prime suspect, I think you should say why.

[Kylemii]

@Kylemii

GTH reads on every player please. I would appreciate it. You don't have to research them or think too hard. Just give me the gut takes. Copy the list here if you like:

Epi - good
Nutella - good
Wilgy - good
Daisy - bad
LC - good
Dyslexicon - good
FZ - bad
Speed - good
JJJ - good
Marmot - bad
Sloonei -bad
Lorab - good
Dave - ???
Novaselinenever - ???
Mac - good

[nutella]

The door was always there. All he needed to do was ask a question or two and it would have been opened.

Are you not alarmed that a player spent a great deal of time refuting a claim without any substance to it?

Not really, no. Frankly I'd have been more suspicious if Kyle had been Mr. Cool and Collected in response to me dropping a "tell" bomb on him in the middle of Day 0. Consider my own reactions to the Epignosis version of the poop, as you've assigned it -- is there a huge difference between my treatment of that and Kyle's treatment of mine?

No, there isn't. I was suspicious of you for a little bit during that episode as well. But I feel good about your posts outside of that. I don't feel particularly good about anything Kyle has done in this game.

Okay, so you despite your reservations you can envision a universe where a civilian JJJ reacts that way.

Does this not mean by extension that a civilian Kyle can react that way?

Absolutely. In townie kyle universe, he was flustered by being made the target of the game's first suspicion and started denying it. But I find the universe in which Kyle is mafia to be more likely. I still would expect town kyle to make more of an effort to understand your prod.
You've made an effort to analyze the contents of Epignosis' feces.

This exchange is the main bullshit. Jay calls him out on an inconsistency, he responds with a handwavey "I just think Kyle is more likely bad"

[Sloonei]

ebwop

Vote for me.

voting for someone who isn't likely to be lynched is wasting a vote

I've given a read on Jay. I also have a strong town read on Speedchuck and a mild town read on Mac.

okay so you've given 3 negative reads today I guess that means you're not tunneling, my bad

would you like to present a case against me?

what I would like is for you to stop wasting my time so I can figure out who to actually vote for during this day phase where my life is on the line

we have three hours and things are very much up in the air. If I'm a prime suspect, I think you should say why.

[Marmot]

Whose idea was it to create the false dilemma of lynching myself or DrWilgy because we are "cruising making jokes" when that is not what is happening.

I'm looking at you MacDougall.

[Sloonei]

The door was always there. All he needed to do was ask a question or two and it would have been opened.

Are you not alarmed that a player spent a great deal of time refuting a claim without any substance to it?

Not really, no. Frankly I'd have been more suspicious if Kyle had been Mr. Cool and Collected in response to me dropping a "tell" bomb on him in the middle of Day 0. Consider my own reactions to the Epignosis version of the poop, as you've assigned it -- is there a huge difference between my treatment of that and Kyle's treatment of mine?

No, there isn't. I was suspicious of you for a little bit during that episode as well. But I feel good about your posts outside of that. I don't feel particularly good about anything Kyle has done in this game.

Okay, so you despite your reservations you can envision a universe where a civilian JJJ reacts that way.

Does this not mean by extension that a civilian Kyle can react that way?

Absolutely. In townie kyle universe, he was flustered by being made the target of the game's first suspicion and started denying it. But I find the universe in which Kyle is mafia to be more likely. I still would expect town kyle to make more of an effort to understand your prod.
You've made an effort to analyze the contents of Epignosis' feces.

This exchange is the main bullshit. Jay calls him out on an inconsistency, he responds with a handwavey "I just think Kyle is more likely bad"

what's the supposed inconsistency? I thought Jay was just seeking clarification, not calling out an inconsistency.

[Kylemii]

sloonei with all due respect I'm done responding to you. your case is bad and you're only being repetitive and I have family over that I should be hanging out with, I can't be a good family member, and respond to you, and also make a good decision for this day phase at the same time. I can do 1, maybe 2 of those things but not all 3.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@Kylemii

GTH reads on every player please. I would appreciate it. You don't have to research them or think too hard. Just give me the gut takes. Copy the list here if you like:

Epi - good
Nutella - good
Wilgy - good
Daisy - bad
LC - good
Dyslexicon - good
FZ - bad
Speed - good
JJJ - good
Marmot - bad
Sloonei -bad
Lorab - good
Dave - ???
Novaselinenever - ???
Mac - good

Talk about it, Sloonei.

[MacDougall]

Whose idea was it to create the false dilemma of lynching myself or DrWilgy because we are "cruising making jokes" when that is not what is happening.

I'm looking at you MacDougall.

I decided I'd rather see two people who aren't contributing well enough for me to analyse (my group 3) lynched and you two are the best choice the group because you've made the most posts. Then someone else said they had a town read on Wilgy so we're frog marching you off the roof unless you can show some reason why we shouldn't ...

Tell us your reads. Do something. Sure, come at the person who decided to start a wagon on you that's fine. Anything is good if you're a civ and don't want to be lynched.

[Sloonei]

@Kylemii

GTH reads on every player please. I would appreciate it. You don't have to research them or think too hard. Just give me the gut takes. Copy the list here if you like:

Epi - good
Nutella - good
Wilgy - good
Daisy - bad
LC - good
Dyslexicon - good
FZ - bad
Speed - good
JJJ - good
Marmot - bad
Sloonei -bad
Lorab - good
Dave - ???
Novaselinenever - ???
Mac - good

Talk about it, Sloonei.

His scum team is me and three low posters. That's not surprising. But, like I said, my objection was his attitude toward giving me a read earlier. He asked "what the purpose" of my line of questioning was. I did not like that. I've been in his face all game but he's just been waffling back and forth on me until now.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I decided I'd rather see two people who aren't contributing well enough for me to analyse (my group 3) lynched and you two are the best choice the group because you've made the most posts.

Epignosis, please talk to me about this sentence.

[MacDougall]

Jimmy would you say that this is consistent with how Kylemii responds to significant case making in games where he has ended up civilian ie. Pirates? That is a long ass ISO you linked me and I wasn't in the game so I actually found it hard to really get my head into the content.

[MacDougall]

I decided I'd rather see two people who aren't contributing well enough for me to analyse (my group 3) lynched and you two are the best choice the group because you've made the most posts.

Epignosis, please talk to me about this sentence.

You'd rather talk to him about it than me? Weird.

[Sloonei]

getting lynched for day 1 bullshit used to be my #1 cause of death.

You described my post as "unhelpful" earlier. why?

because it was unhelpful

all you did was sharpen the focus on something that was already being focused on

is that value added?

This post reminds me so much of ScummyJimmyJay's argument that Mesk's posts featured "no civilian utility" in Mountain Mafia.

[Kylemii]

They're taking me to get Phò. I'm placing a vote on Sloonei rn. I should be back early enough to make a good decision before the poll ends.

At this point I don't even mind that much if I get lynched? I mean I'd obviously prefer to live but I think this game would do fine without me, and I'm never super critical to town success anyways so... whatever I guess. I'll be back in a little while.

[Kylemii]

like I really don't mean to be dismissive but I can't hang out in my room on my phone right now

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Jimmy would you say that this is consistent with how Kylemii responds to significant case making in games where he has ended up civilian ie. Pirates? That is a long ass ISO you linked me and I wasn't in the game so I actually found it hard to really get my head into the content.

I honestly can't remember playing in another game where that happened. I was a co-host of Pirates and thought that he was being cased for really silly reasons, and I do think he at least fought hard against it. I can't speak to the specific tone or candor.

[Sloonei]

Can somebody summarize the cases against marmot and epi for me? I've seen discussion of them, but it's hard to pin down the central points.

[MacDougall]

Jimmy would you say that this is consistent with how Kylemii responds to significant case making in games where he has ended up civilian ie. Pirates? That is a long ass ISO you linked me and I wasn't in the game so I actually found it hard to really get my head into the content.

I honestly can't remember playing in another game where that happened. I was a co-host of Pirates and thought that he was being cased for really silly reasons, and I do think he at least fought hard against it. I can't speak to the specific tone or candor.

We should lynch him to establish a benchmark then.

[MacDougall]

Can somebody summarize the cases against marmot and epi for me? I've seen discussion of them, but it's hard to pin down the central points.

Marmot = Waffly. Posting inconsistently. Low contribution but seems to be around a bit. Seems to be picking and choosing what to comment on but never making waves. POE.

Epi is someone elses cross to bear.

[Marmot]

Whose idea was it to create the false dilemma of lynching myself or DrWilgy because we are "cruising making jokes" when that is not what is happening.

I'm looking at you MacDougall.

I decided I'd rather see two people who aren't contributing well enough for me to analyse (my group 3) lynched and you two are the best choice the group because you've made the most posts. Then someone else said they had a town read on Wilgy so we're frog marching you off the roof unless you can show some reason why we shouldn't ...

Tell us your reads. Do something. Sure, come at the person who decided to start a wagon on you that's fine. Anything is good if you're a civ and don't want to be lynched.

That's ridiculous. Your original rainbow list had me in the green section. How am I suddenly your primary lynch target because you decided I'm not contributing enough (after I actually started contributing) and because someone else had a town read of DrWilgy?

[MacDougall]

Whose idea was it to create the false dilemma of lynching myself or DrWilgy because we are "cruising making jokes" when that is not what is happening.

I'm looking at you MacDougall.

I decided I'd rather see two people who aren't contributing well enough for me to analyse (my group 3) lynched and you two are the best choice the group because you've made the most posts. Then someone else said they had a town read on Wilgy so we're frog marching you off the roof unless you can show some reason why we shouldn't ...

Tell us your reads. Do something. Sure, come at the person who decided to start a wagon on you that's fine. Anything is good if you're a civ and don't want to be lynched.

That's ridiculous. Your original rainbow list had me in the green section. How am I suddenly your primary lynch target because you decided I'm not contributing enough (after I actually started contributing) and because someone else had a town read of DrWilgy?

So you haven't read the extended discussion about how my rainbow list was actually just speedchuck's?

You've never been a town read. You have been no higher than null all game. Mostly this is based on POE. If you want to be spared you should try to include yourself in the E.

[Sloonei]

like I really don't mean to be dismissive but I can't hang out in my room on my phone right now

This is more than fine. Sorry if I've been disruptive to you living your life in any way.

[Marmot]

Can somebody summarize the cases against marmot and epi for me? I've seen discussion of them, but it's hard to pin down the central points.

Marmot = Waffly. Posting inconsistently. Low contribution but seems to be around a bit. Seems to be picking and choosing what to comment on but never making waves. POE.

Epi is someone elses cross to bear.

Of course I pick and choose what I comment on. I can't respond to every single post.

[Sloonei]

[mention]Marmot[/mention], you're still voting for Dyslexicon. As far as I can tell, this is still because she's not posted enough cat gifs. As heinous as that is, I don't think it constitutes a solid reason to case a vote this late in the day phase. who are you going to change to?

[MacDougall]

Can somebody summarize the cases against marmot and epi for me? I've seen discussion of them, but it's hard to pin down the central points.

Marmot = Waffly. Posting inconsistently. Low contribution but seems to be around a bit. Seems to be picking and choosing what to comment on but never making waves. POE.

Epi is someone elses cross to bear.

Of course I pick and choose what I comment on. I can't respond to every single post.

My thought is you have done it in a way so as to only be choosing to comment on things that have little chance of exposing you. Keeping up appearances.

[Marmot]

Marmot, you're still voting for Dyslexicon. As far as I can tell, this is still because she's not posted enough cat gifs. As heinous as that is, I don't think it constitutes a solid reason to case a vote this late in the day phase. who are you going to change to?

I'll change my vote as I damn well please.



I'm frustrated because I made a post earlier today. In that post, I said it's ridiculous that a player should get a Day 1 pass because they are a "shitty lynch" even if they'd be worth lynching any other day or as any other player. And now I'm getting votes because I am the opposite of a shitty lynch.

[Sloonei]

Whose idea was it to create the false dilemma of lynching myself or DrWilgy because we are "cruising making jokes" when that is not what is happening.

I'm looking at you MacDougall.

I decided I'd rather see two people who aren't contributing well enough for me to analyse (my group 3) lynched and you two are the best choice the group because you've made the most posts. Then someone else said they had a town read on Wilgy so we're frog marching you off the roof unless you can show some reason why we shouldn't ...

Tell us your reads. Do something. Sure, come at the person who decided to start a wagon on you that's fine. Anything is good if you're a civ and don't want to be lynched.

That's ridiculous. Your original rainbow list had me in the green section. How am I suddenly your primary lynch target because you decided I'm not contributing enough (after I actually started contributing) and because someone else had a town read of DrWilgy?

I don't like this post. I can excuse Marmot not being aware of Mac copying speedchuck's rainbow, but I don't like the way he dismisses the possibility of Mac having a change of opinion.

[Sloonei]

Marmot, you're still voting for Dyslexicon. As far as I can tell, this is still because she's not posted enough cat gifs. As heinous as that is, I don't think it constitutes a solid reason to case a vote this late in the day phase. who are you going to change to?

I'll change my vote as I damn well please.



I'm frustrated because I made a post earlier today. In that post, I said it's ridiculous that a player should get a Day 1 pass because they are a "shitty lynch" even if they'd be worth lynching any other day or as any other player. And now I'm getting votes because I am the opposite of a shitty lynch.

Do you have any significant suspects?

[Marmot]

Can somebody summarize the cases against marmot and epi for me? I've seen discussion of them, but it's hard to pin down the central points.

Marmot = Waffly. Posting inconsistently. Low contribution but seems to be around a bit. Seems to be picking and choosing what to comment on but never making waves. POE.

Epi is someone elses cross to bear.

Of course I pick and choose what I comment on. I can't respond to every single post.

My thought is you have done it in a way so as to only be choosing to comment on things that have little chance of exposing you. Keeping up appearances.

I've not had time to read the whole thread. Nor likely will I. Probably the same reason I missed you posting speedchuck's rainbow as your own.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Marmot, you're still voting for Dyslexicon. As far as I can tell, this is still because she's not posted enough cat gifs. As heinous as that is, I don't think it constitutes a solid reason to case a vote this late in the day phase. who are you going to change to?

I'll change my vote as I damn well please.



I'm frustrated because I made a post earlier today. In that post, I said it's ridiculous that a player should get a Day 1 pass because they are a "shitty lynch" even if they'd be worth lynching any other day or as any other player. And now I'm getting votes because I am the opposite of a shitty lynch.

He's a Mad Marmot.

Do you think I should be lynched?

[Marmot]

Whose idea was it to create the false dilemma of lynching myself or DrWilgy because we are "cruising making jokes" when that is not what is happening.

I'm looking at you MacDougall.

I decided I'd rather see two people who aren't contributing well enough for me to analyse (my group 3) lynched and you two are the best choice the group because you've made the most posts. Then someone else said they had a town read on Wilgy so we're frog marching you off the roof unless you can show some reason why we shouldn't ...

Tell us your reads. Do something. Sure, come at the person who decided to start a wagon on you that's fine. Anything is good if you're a civ and don't want to be lynched.

That's ridiculous. Your original rainbow list had me in the green section. How am I suddenly your primary lynch target because you decided I'm not contributing enough (after I actually started contributing) and because someone else had a town read of DrWilgy?

I don't like this post. I can excuse Marmot not being aware of Mac copying speedchuck's rainbow, but I don't like the way he dismisses the possibility of Mac having a change of opinion.

There was no basis for his change of opinion, so yes I can.

There was no mention of me between the two lists.

[DrWilgy]

Marmot friend. I want you to die.

[nutella]

I would rather lynch Marmot than Kyle or Wilgy, but I would rather lynch Sloonei than Marmot. Kyle said he'd vote for Sloonei; if one other person does I'd move there. Otherwise I'm staying on Epi.

[Marmot]

Marmot, you're still voting for Dyslexicon. As far as I can tell, this is still because she's not posted enough cat gifs. As heinous as that is, I don't think it constitutes a solid reason to case a vote this late in the day phase. who are you going to change to?

I'll change my vote as I damn well please.



I'm frustrated because I made a post earlier today. In that post, I said it's ridiculous that a player should get a Day 1 pass because they are a "shitty lynch" even if they'd be worth lynching any other day or as any other player. And now I'm getting votes because I am the opposite of a shitty lynch.

He's a Mad Marmot.

Do you think I should be lynched?

Yes, because I was lynched early in each of my last two games and you contributed to both of them.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I would rather lynch Marmot than Kyle or Wilgy, but I would rather lynch Sloonei than Marmot. Kyle said he'd vote for Sloonei; if one other person does I'd move there. Otherwise I'm staying on Epi.

You drew a comparison before to Sloonei's failed tunnel on colonialbob from Mountain Mafia. Do you perceive a difference in this tunnel?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Yes, because I was lynched early in each of my last two games and you contributed to both of them.

I did. Am I mafia in this game though?

[Sloonei]

I would rather lynch Marmot than Kyle or Wilgy, but I would rather lynch Sloonei than Marmot. Kyle said he'd vote for Sloonei; if one other person does I'd move there. Otherwise I'm staying on Epi.

Talk some more about why I'm a suspect.

[nutella]

I would rather lynch Marmot than Kyle or Wilgy, but I would rather lynch Sloonei than Marmot. Kyle said he'd vote for Sloonei; if one other person does I'd move there. Otherwise I'm staying on Epi.

You drew a comparison before to Sloonei's failed tunnel on colonialbob from Mountain Mafia. Do you perceive a difference in this tunnel?

I didn't at first, but I think his responses to Kyle have become more and more stubborn and repetitive, and like I said I didn't like his response to your question either. Plus, his case on cbob in Mountains had a lot more actual content/justification/growth; here he has been restating the same ~3 reasons and waving aside Kyle's explanations. It was similar at first, but I think he's losing credibility.

[Sloonei]

I would rather lynch Marmot than Kyle or Wilgy, but I would rather lynch Sloonei than Marmot. Kyle said he'd vote for Sloonei; if one other person does I'd move there. Otherwise I'm staying on Epi.

You drew a comparison before to Sloonei's failed tunnel on colonialbob from Mountain Mafia. Do you perceive a difference in this tunnel?

I didn't at first, but I think his responses to Kyle have become more and more stubborn and repetitive, and like I said I didn't like his response to your question either. Plus, his case on cbob in Mountains had a lot more actual content/justification/growth; here he has been restating the same ~3 reasons and waving aside Kyle's explanations. It was similar at first, but I think he's losing credibility.

I don't feel like Kyle's responses to me have explained away my case. I've been repeating myself because my concerns are still alive.

[Marmot]

Yes, because I was lynched early in each of my last two games and you contributed to both of them.

I did. Am I mafia in this game though?

I don't want to lynch you today, no. I disagree with Epignosis's posts leading up to the linked one, especially the part where he says that you talking will help expose your teammates more. This is true of any player, but I would gander it's less true of you than most players. Not that you wouldn't talk about your teammates, but that it'd be harder to for anyone to read those connections.

That, and if you're mafia, Epignosis must certainly acknowledge that you'd have a decent shot at talking your way out of a lynch later.

I'm much more interested in lynching him.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't feel like Kyle's responses to me have explained away my case. I've been repeating myself because my concerns are still alive.

Do you think it's possible for your concerns to become dead?

[Sloonei]

I mean, look at this contradiction. Zero people have commented on this:

This was the turn in the conversation that I really didn't like, and still do not. If this is what Kyle assumed, then why did he launch so quickly into defense mode? why was it his objective to negate and dismiss a prod which he presumed to be disingenuous, rather than simply observing that it was disingenuous? This might be my least favorite post in the thread.

this implies that i should ever ignore lies being told about me and assume the liar must have good intentions. i disagree with that on principle based on the fact that this is mafia? lies and innaccurate statements should always be called out.

But you acknowledged in this same breath that you were pretty sure this particular lie was just a standard mafia ploy. If this is your interpretation, why was it so important to refute it first?

"pretty sure this particular lie was just a standard mafia ploy" again that's false. I said I was pretty sure he was lying cus factually speaking there were no consistencies between this game and sc2. The reasoning was still unknown.

Hmmmmm?

i actually kinda assumed you were lying for standard day zero jay-prod purposes?

Does no one else see why I feel bad about this?

[Sloonei]

I don't feel like Kyle's responses to me have explained away my case. I've been repeating myself because my concerns are still alive.

Do you think it's possible for your concerns to become dead?

Yes. My most pressing concerns aren't even being discussed in any capacity though.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't want to lynch you today, no. I disagree with Epignosis's posts leading up to the linked one, especially the part where he says that you talking will help expose your teammates more. This is true of any player, but I would gander it's less true of you than most players. Not that you wouldn't talk about your teammates, but that it'd be harder to for anyone to read those connections.

That, and if you're mafia, Epignosis must certainly acknowledge that you'd have a decent shot at talking your way out of a lynch later.

I'm much more interested in lynching him.

I need to see whether there's precedent for a civilian Epignosis giving me a Day 1 pass when he suspects me. Civilian Epignosis has suspected me many times so there should be something to find. RED vs. BLUE sets a precedent for mafia Epignosis to give me as Day 1 pass when he suspects me. I'll look into it.

[Spacedaisy]

Ok, holy shit ya'll! I left for work and thought maybe I could slowly catch up on the last three pages. Now there are ten more. There is no way I can catch up with this before the day ends so I'm probably going to random vote between the people earning votes.

[Marmot]

I mean, look at this contradiction. Zero people have commented on this:

This was the turn in the conversation that I really didn't like, and still do not. If this is what Kyle assumed, then why did he launch so quickly into defense mode? why was it his objective to negate and dismiss a prod which he presumed to be disingenuous, rather than simply observing that it was disingenuous? This might be my least favorite post in the thread.

this implies that i should ever ignore lies being told about me and assume the liar must have good intentions. i disagree with that on principle based on the fact that this is mafia? lies and innaccurate statements should always be called out.

But you acknowledged in this same breath that you were pretty sure this particular lie was just a standard mafia ploy. If this is your interpretation, why was it so important to refute it first?

"pretty sure this particular lie was just a standard mafia ploy" again that's false. I said I was pretty sure he was lying cus factually speaking there were no consistencies between this game and sc2. The reasoning was still unknown.

Hmmmmm?

i actually kinda assumed you were lying for standard day zero jay-prod purposes?

Does no one else see why I feel bad about this?

I am out of context and don't know what the problem here is.

[Sloonei]

Ok, holy shit ya'll! I left for work and thought maybe I could slowly catch up on the last three pages. Now there are ten more. There is no way I can catch up with this before the day ends so I'm probably going to random vote between the people earning votes.

Don't do this. Devote the time you would have spent catching up to talking to us here and now.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Does no one else see why I feel bad about this?

He suspected I was lying because there was no logical way he could find that I couldn't be in the only mafia-aligned game he'd played in recent memory. And he was inclined to attribute that lie to a standard JJJ prod.

What's the problem?