Fiddler on the Roof Mafia

[nutella]

I like Epi's case on FZ. Personally, I tend to hedge a lot, because I'm often uncertain/indecisive, but the things he called out in her post are questionable. I don't know why Epi just changed his vote to Dizzy though. Epi, were you voting for FZ when you posted that case and did you like her last couple posts?

I'm liking her a bit more now after her last couple posts. Looking more town. But I think she's still a compatible teammate for my sloonei/jay tinfoil scenario. Tinfoil Scenario would be a great name for a jam band.

[nutella]

@linki: What's LMS?

Last Man Standing (a style of game without traditional teams). I was making a joke in reference to a recent game where LC faked thinking the game was LMS when it wasn't.

[FZ.]

Damn, just wrote a post and it got deleted.
First, I find it almost impossible to catch up, so please bare with me. I'm really busy, and probably shouldn't have come back from the break, but that's what I did, and I'm trying to keep up.

I skimmed and read on and off, and I'm still a couple of pages behind, but here are a few of my impressions since I last left after my vote for Epi.

First, I really can't decide regarding Kyle. On the one hand, there's my first impression which made me seriously pinged. But there are posts where the tone feels very genuine to me, and he seems like he's upset from a civvie point of view. On the other hand, I value Sloonei's opinion, and although I've played only very few games with him, I think he's a very methodical player, and often gets the job done. He feels a little obsessed about Kyle, but it feels real to me. Not sure I agree, but it's something to think about.

I think I've changed my mind regarding Epi. I'm glad people didn't follow, and that he didn't end up getting lynched. His posts after I left felt much more like what I expect from civvie Epi.

Still feel very good about JJJ. I've seen nothing from him that makes me think he's bad.
Same goes for Sloonei. I actually like that he's asking people not to catch up. I do that sometimes as well, because the best way to catch a mafia is to interact with them live, so it makes me feel good about him.
Still, Sloonei, I have to say, that when I don't catch up I feel like I have no idea what's going on, so I guess it has to be a mixture.

Mac is a question mark. At some points he feels like the person I trust the most, but then I'm reminded a game I've played with him (can't remember
which), where he was bad and got everyone to trust him. So I'm keeping this at the back of my mind, just to remind me never to fully trust him. For now, he's high on my trusted list.

LC is one of my new top suspects. His game style feels like something I've seen lots of mafia do. He's asking clarification questions. It's something LC doesn't normally do.

That is not a true statement. You are inventing that about me.

For example:

When you speak of hedging... is that like a general wishy-washiness, leaving both sides open, kind of thing?

Here is another example:

So, first of all, FZ.

I want to talk about this post.

Daisy, Dave, Dizzy, FZ, NVN, I have almost no impression at all of any of these players yet

I'm here, I'm trying to catch up but it's not working for me very well.
I'm on page 8 so things can change. At the moment, I find myself agreeing with JJJ on Epi. Something there feels not genuine. I haven't played for a while, but I think civ Epi is more careful, and what he's doing now, is acting like he's going full force after what he believes. Sloonei said he wouldn't be this blunt on day 1, but if people are going to say that, then Epi has no problem acting just like that.

Kyle is really defending himself and making sense, so I do feel better about him. That being said, I like to trust my initial instincts, and even though no one seemed to agree with me, the post I talked about did feel to me like a frustrated baddie who doesn't like the civvies' powers.

"I find myself" is a hedge phrase. Moreover, with what exactly does FZ. agree? Instead of being specific, she says something there feels not genuine. What is this something? This statement baffles me. Not because of whether it's a correct perception or not, but because of what she accuses me of doing now: Acting like I'm going full force after what I believe. If I am bad, then I don't truly believe in what I'm saying. In FZ.'s mind, how can I be bad if I'm going full force after what I (genuinely) believe? This sentence is supposed to buttress FZ.'s previous commentary about me, but it weakens it: Was my perceived bluntness (i.e., going full-force after what I believe) the product of me drawing a mafia role, which is what the blue statement implies, or was it a product of what I believed other people would say about me?

And this is where FZ. gives herself the luxury of voting Kylemii or defending Kylemii- whichever suits her purpose.

There's so much hedge in this post, I could block the neighbors' view of the roof.

I'm on page 8 so things can change. At the moment, I find myself agreeing with JJJ on Epi

I feel like this all could have been yellow, from the start. "Things can change" "At the moment"... are those not equally hedgey? FZ. certainly is laying down some tentative stuff here, it's important for her to make it clear she's not committing.

But you ask what she's agreeing with - I read it as she's agreeing with Jay that your posts aren't genuine. You criticize the way she doesn't go into specifics, which is reasonable... FZ., would you like to clarify?

The blue part is some classic Epi bizarro-logic to me. She said you are acting like you're going after what you believe. That doesn't imply that you genuinely believe... those beliefs. Just that you are bad and putting on an act as though you genuinely hold the beliefs. Contrasted to her projected Civ Epi, who is unlikely to commit strongly to those beliefs at all.

And the red part... a false dichotomy. "the product of me drawing a mafia role" and "a product of what I believed other people would say about me" are the same side of the same coin.

It is because you drew a mafia role that you chose to analyze what you believed other people would say about you.

First of all, he's sort of defending/explaining me. Civvie LC doesn't do that.

How is this "first of all" when it follows your previous points? Never mind.

"Civvie LC doesn't do that" is the second time this post that you are making something up about me.

He let's people defend themselves or explain themselves. Again, he's asking for clarifications, which I don't remember him doing.
He's acting too nice, I can't explain it, but all his recent posts ping me like crazy.

Instead of criticizing that I agree with Epi that your comments about him and JJJ need clarifying, why don't you just clarify them?

Saying I'm making things up doesn't make it true. Prove that I'm making things up. Do you find yourself explaining other people often? I don't remember you ever doing that. Sorry if I'm wrong, but that's the truth. You let people brew in their own juice.
Give an example where you acted liked this as a civvie.

As for what I need to clear up, I'm not even sure what I'm being accused of, but I've stated why I accused Epi, and the part where I leave the options open for me to choose where to go later, is just me being unsure of things and stating where I'm at. Would people rather I don't speak at all until I'm sure about something? I will barely be posting...

[Long Con]

@linki: What's LMS?

Last Man Standing (a style of game without traditional teams). I was making a joke in reference to a recent game where LC faked thinking the game was LMS when it wasn't.

LOL the funniest part is, I wasn't really faking. I had to pretend I was faking because of how dumb the truth was.

[Kylemii]

We had no nightkill last night, but nobody is talking about things that might have caused that. I have trouble identifying a clear-cut consensus town read, so a doctor save on Night 1 would be incredible but not impossible. What other roles are there that could have stopped a kill from going through?

I looked it over earlier and didn't see anything worth bringing up. We've got a role blocker, a doctor, a bullet-proof-vest-boy-that-i-forgot-the-classical-name-for,

role blocker stop implies that someone widely distrusted might be bad, doctor stop implies that someone widely trusted might be good, bulletproofboy implies basically the the same thing as doctor except with an extra layer of unpredictable spice cus that safety was chosen randomly rather than by a player

[Long Con]

Damn, just wrote a post and it got deleted.
First, I find it almost impossible to catch up, so please bare with me. I'm really busy, and probably shouldn't have come back from the break, but that's what I did, and I'm trying to keep up.

I skimmed and read on and off, and I'm still a couple of pages behind, but here are a few of my impressions since I last left after my vote for Epi.

First, I really can't decide regarding Kyle. On the one hand, there's my first impression which made me seriously pinged. But there are posts where the tone feels very genuine to me, and he seems like he's upset from a civvie point of view. On the other hand, I value Sloonei's opinion, and although I've played only very few games with him, I think he's a very methodical player, and often gets the job done. He feels a little obsessed about Kyle, but it feels real to me. Not sure I agree, but it's something to think about.

I think I've changed my mind regarding Epi. I'm glad people didn't follow, and that he didn't end up getting lynched. His posts after I left felt much more like what I expect from civvie Epi.

Still feel very good about JJJ. I've seen nothing from him that makes me think he's bad.
Same goes for Sloonei. I actually like that he's asking people not to catch up. I do that sometimes as well, because the best way to catch a mafia is to interact with them live, so it makes me feel good about him.
Still, Sloonei, I have to say, that when I don't catch up I feel like I have no idea what's going on, so I guess it has to be a mixture.

Mac is a question mark. At some points he feels like the person I trust the most, but then I'm reminded a game I've played with him (can't remember
which), where he was bad and got everyone to trust him. So I'm keeping this at the back of my mind, just to remind me never to fully trust him. For now, he's high on my trusted list.

LC is one of my new top suspects. His game style feels like something I've seen lots of mafia do. He's asking clarification questions. It's something LC doesn't normally do.

That is not a true statement. You are inventing that about me.

For example:

When you speak of hedging... is that like a general wishy-washiness, leaving both sides open, kind of thing?

Here is another example:

So, first of all, FZ.

I want to talk about this post.

Daisy, Dave, Dizzy, FZ, NVN, I have almost no impression at all of any of these players yet

I'm here, I'm trying to catch up but it's not working for me very well.
I'm on page 8 so things can change. At the moment, I find myself agreeing with JJJ on Epi. Something there feels not genuine. I haven't played for a while, but I think civ Epi is more careful, and what he's doing now, is acting like he's going full force after what he believes. Sloonei said he wouldn't be this blunt on day 1, but if people are going to say that, then Epi has no problem acting just like that.

Kyle is really defending himself and making sense, so I do feel better about him. That being said, I like to trust my initial instincts, and even though no one seemed to agree with me, the post I talked about did feel to me like a frustrated baddie who doesn't like the civvies' powers.

"I find myself" is a hedge phrase. Moreover, with what exactly does FZ. agree? Instead of being specific, she says something there feels not genuine. What is this something? This statement baffles me. Not because of whether it's a correct perception or not, but because of what she accuses me of doing now: Acting like I'm going full force after what I believe. If I am bad, then I don't truly believe in what I'm saying. In FZ.'s mind, how can I be bad if I'm going full force after what I (genuinely) believe? This sentence is supposed to buttress FZ.'s previous commentary about me, but it weakens it: Was my perceived bluntness (i.e., going full-force after what I believe) the product of me drawing a mafia role, which is what the blue statement implies, or was it a product of what I believed other people would say about me?

And this is where FZ. gives herself the luxury of voting Kylemii or defending Kylemii- whichever suits her purpose.

There's so much hedge in this post, I could block the neighbors' view of the roof.

I'm on page 8 so things can change. At the moment, I find myself agreeing with JJJ on Epi

I feel like this all could have been yellow, from the start. "Things can change" "At the moment"... are those not equally hedgey? FZ. certainly is laying down some tentative stuff here, it's important for her to make it clear she's not committing.

But you ask what she's agreeing with - I read it as she's agreeing with Jay that your posts aren't genuine. You criticize the way she doesn't go into specifics, which is reasonable... FZ., would you like to clarify?

The blue part is some classic Epi bizarro-logic to me. She said you are acting like you're going after what you believe. That doesn't imply that you genuinely believe... those beliefs. Just that you are bad and putting on an act as though you genuinely hold the beliefs. Contrasted to her projected Civ Epi, who is unlikely to commit strongly to those beliefs at all.

And the red part... a false dichotomy. "the product of me drawing a mafia role" and "a product of what I believed other people would say about me" are the same side of the same coin.

It is because you drew a mafia role that you chose to analyze what you believed other people would say about you.

First of all, he's sort of defending/explaining me. Civvie LC doesn't do that.

How is this "first of all" when it follows your previous points? Never mind.

"Civvie LC doesn't do that" is the second time this post that you are making something up about me.

He let's people defend themselves or explain themselves. Again, he's asking for clarifications, which I don't remember him doing.
He's acting too nice, I can't explain it, but all his recent posts ping me like crazy.

Instead of criticizing that I agree with Epi that your comments about him and JJJ need clarifying, why don't you just clarify them?

Saying I'm making things up doesn't make it true. Prove that I'm making things up. Do you find yourself explaining other people often? I don't remember you ever doing that. Sorry if I'm wrong, but that's the truth. You let people brew in their own juice.
Give an example where you acted liked this as a civvie.

Please pardon my brusqueness, milady, but I don't fucking think so. If you want to make unfounded claims about my regular behaviour, it's up to you to prove it.

Wait, "explaining other people"?? I thought the accusation was that I was "asking for clarification".

As for what I need to clear up, I'm not even sure what I'm being accused of, but I've stated why I accused Epi, and the part where I leave the options open for me to choose where to go later, is just me being unsure of things and stating where I'm at. Would people rather I don't speak at all until I'm sure about something? I will barely be posting...

Here's what Epi said: "Moreover, with what exactly does FZ. agree? Instead of being specific, she says something there feels not genuine. What is this something? "

I agree with him that you should be able to go into more detail about this, if it's a real opinion.

[Epignosis]

I like Epi's case on FZ. Personally, I tend to hedge a lot, because I'm often uncertain/indecisive, but the things he called out in her post are questionable. I don't know why Epi just changed his vote to Dizzy though. Epi, were you voting for FZ when you posted that case and did you like her last couple posts?

I'm liking her a bit more now after her last couple posts. Looking more town. But I think she's still a compatible teammate for my sloonei/jay tinfoil scenario. Tinfoil Scenario would be a great name for a jam band.

FZ.'s overall response was not what I was expecting from mafia.

I'm way more interested in players like FZ, Robar, the ever random Wilgy and the ever endearing Marmot. And then there are a couple of players that I don't remember posts from or they haven't been game relevant enough to stick.

Vote FZ

I don't find any reason to feel good about their posts. A bit on the side and meh. I guess this may count as a gut read, but it's where I'm at now.

Speed and Nut as town, Kyle as probably town, Slooneiiiiii let me hold on for a bit, Epic could be town, JJJ more null but ugh, don't remember anything else.

Dyslexicon gave a list of people who had very little chance of getting lynched at the time. FZ., Robar (whodatis), Wilgy, and Marmot. This was all so "Let me get out of the way," and that she did nothing to show why other people should be interested in FZ., Robar (whodatis), Wilgy, or Marmot gives me the impression that she's not really interested herself.

Capping this off is another list that is puzzling to me.

I don't know why speedchuck and nutella get the green light here, but okay. What concerns me is this:

Kyle as probably town, Slooneiiiiii let me hold on for a bit

I would think one's opinion of Kyle at that stage would have to have something to do with Sloonei. I might be less alarmed if she had brushed off the opening confrontation as "civilian/civilian," but this is "Kyle is probably good (why?), but no comment yet on Sloonei."

[FZ.]

A. I stated both that you are asking for clarifications and that you are explaining other people. Go read. I need to prove something that you don't do? How can I do that if you don't do it? It's not there...

B. I was agreeing with JJJ that he may be bad. He felt ungenuine at the time, and I could see him trying to take him out via lynch because he's too proud to NK him, like JJJ suggested.

[FZ.]

I like Epi's case on FZ. Personally, I tend to hedge a lot, because I'm often uncertain/indecisive, but the things he called out in her post are questionable. I don't know why Epi just changed his vote to Dizzy though. Epi, were you voting for FZ when you posted that case and did you like her last couple posts?

I'm liking her a bit more now after her last couple posts. Looking more town. But I think she's still a compatible teammate for my sloonei/jay tinfoil scenario. Tinfoil Scenario would be a great name for a jam band.

FZ.'s overall response was not what I was expecting from mafia.

I'm way more interested in players like FZ, Robar, the ever random Wilgy and the ever endearing Marmot. And then there are a couple of players that I don't remember posts from or they haven't been game relevant enough to stick.

Vote FZ

I don't find any reason to feel good about their posts. A bit on the side and meh. I guess this may count as a gut read, but it's where I'm at now.

Speed and Nut as town, Kyle as probably town, Slooneiiiiii let me hold on for a bit, Epic could be town, JJJ more null but ugh, don't remember anything else.

Dyslexicon gave a list of people who had very little chance of getting lynched at the time. FZ., Robar (whodatis), Wilgy, and Marmot. This was all so "Let me get out of the way," and that she did nothing to show why other people should be interested in FZ., Robar (whodatis), Wilgy, or Marmot gives me the impression that she's not really interested herself.

Capping this off is another list that is puzzling to me.

I don't know why speedchuck and nutella get the green light here, but okay. What concerns me is this:

Kyle as probably town, Slooneiiiiii let me hold on for a bit

I would think one's opinion of Kyle at that stage would have to have something to do with Sloonei. I might be less alarmed if she had brushed off the opening confrontation as "civilian/civilian," but this is "Kyle is probably good (why?), but no comment yet on Sloonei."

If Dyslexicon is bad and Kyle good, I could easily see her defending the person with the potential to be lynched and come out good, and hold off her "view" of Sloonei (who I personally feel is good)

[FZ.]

A. I stated both that you are asking for clarifications and that you are explaining other people. Go read. I need to prove something that you don't do? How can I do that if you don't do it? It's not there...

B. I was agreeing with JJJ that he may be bad. He felt ungenuine at the time, and I could see him trying to take him out via lynch because he's too proud to NK him, like JJJ suggested.

This was in reply to LC. I didn't want to quote that huge post again

[Long Con]

A. I stated both that you are asking for clarifications and that you are explaining other people. Go read. I need to prove something that you don't do? How can I do that if you don't do it? It's not there...

Ok, look at it from my perspective. I'm Civ, I'm trying to understand Epi's case on you. I ask what he means by hedging. You accuse me of being bad because I don't ask people to clarify themselves when I'm Civ. To me, this sounds like a real bullshit reason to suspect me, because I ask people to clarify themselves when I need clarification. It's not based on my alignment. If all I had been doing all game was asking clarification questions, then ok, that's a little unusual. But you're calling me out here for ONE QUESTION. Sometimes I need clarification, and it's not because I'm playing it off my alignment.

I'm not delving into a big LC ISO because of your weak accusation. I don't have the time. I've spent hours today already just getting caught up in MK and playing here. Not happening.

B. I was agreeing with JJJ that he may be bad. He felt ungenuine at the time, and I could see him trying to take him out via lynch because he's too proud to NK him, like JJJ suggested.

That's equally vague as your original statement Epi quoted. You haven't clarified anything. Maybe an actual quote from Epi that you found particularly ungenuine would at least be a start.

[FZ.]

A. I stated both that you are asking for clarifications and that you are explaining other people. Go read. I need to prove something that you don't do? How can I do that if you don't do it? It's not there...

Ok, look at it from my perspective. I'm Civ, I'm trying to understand Epi's case on you. I ask what he means by hedging. You accuse me of being bad because I don't ask people to clarify themselves when I'm Civ. To me, this sounds like a real bullshit reason to suspect me, because I ask people to clarify themselves when I need clarification. It's not based on my alignment. If all I had been doing all game was asking clarification questions, then ok, that's a little unusual. But you're calling me out here for ONE QUESTION. Sometimes I need clarification, and it's not because I'm playing it off my alignment.

I'm not delving into a big LC ISO because of your weak accusation. I don't have the time. I've spent hours today already just getting caught up in MK and playing here. Not happening.

B. I was agreeing with JJJ that he may be bad. He felt ungenuine at the time, and I could see him trying to take him out via lynch because he's too proud to NK him, like JJJ suggested.

That's equally vague as your original statement Epi quoted. You haven't clarified anything. Maybe an actual quote from Epi that you found particularly ungenuine would at least be a start.

Another example for what I don't expect civvie LC to say: "Look at it from my perspective".
I'm sorry, I just think civvie LC wouldn't be so civilized about something he thought was bullshit.
Am I the only one who thinks this is not LC's MO when a civ. It just feels completely off. Don't delve into a big ISO. Like I said, I'm a tone person. It's what I'm feeling from you. At the moment, you're not helping me feel better about you. It's not like I'm asking you to start being rude from now on, but it seems like you care about how you're viewed more than you usually do.

As for the quote you want,I think there were several, because there was a back and forth between JJJ and Epi. I will have to leave soon so I'm not sure I want to waste so much time on it, even more so, because I don't believe in him being bad any more. If that's what will make people decide between voting for me or not, I'll make the effort. If not, i think it's a waste of time

[FZ.]

In the meantime, I'll vote LC, because he's my biggest suspect at the moment.

[Long Con]

A. I stated both that you are asking for clarifications and that you are explaining other people. Go read. I need to prove something that you don't do? How can I do that if you don't do it? It's not there...

Ok, look at it from my perspective. I'm Civ, I'm trying to understand Epi's case on you. I ask what he means by hedging. You accuse me of being bad because I don't ask people to clarify themselves when I'm Civ. To me, this sounds like a real bullshit reason to suspect me, because I ask people to clarify themselves when I need clarification. It's not based on my alignment. If all I had been doing all game was asking clarification questions, then ok, that's a little unusual. But you're calling me out here for ONE QUESTION. Sometimes I need clarification, and it's not because I'm playing it off my alignment.

I'm not delving into a big LC ISO because of your weak accusation. I don't have the time. I've spent hours today already just getting caught up in MK and playing here. Not happening.

B. I was agreeing with JJJ that he may be bad. He felt ungenuine at the time, and I could see him trying to take him out via lynch because he's too proud to NK him, like JJJ suggested.

That's equally vague as your original statement Epi quoted. You haven't clarified anything. Maybe an actual quote from Epi that you found particularly ungenuine would at least be a start.

Another example for what I don't expect civvie LC to say: "Look at it from my perspective".
I'm sorry, I just think civvie LC wouldn't be so civilized about something he thought was bullshit.
Am I the only one who thinks this is not LC's MO when a civ. It just feels completely off. Don't delve into a big ISO. Like I said, I'm a tone person. It's what I'm feeling from you. At the moment, you're not helping me feel better about you. It's not like I'm asking you to start being rude from now on, but it seems like you care about how you're viewed more than you usually do.

As for the quote you want,I think there were several, because there was a back and forth between JJJ and Epi. I will have to leave soon so I'm not sure I want to waste so much time on it, even more so, because I don't believe in him being bad any more. If that's what will make people decide between voting for me or not, I'll make the effort. If not, i think it's a waste of time

Ok, well let's leave it in everyone else's hands then. I would rather deal with accusations about "X behaviour is suspicious" than "here's what Civvie LC and baddie LC do". I'm not accepting the latter any more, it's just a vehicle to try and jam in a phony preconception into a suspicion. If you think I'm suspicious, just say it. If you're going to reference a meta, then prove it or don't bother.

[MacDougall]

Mac, if you were to base your suspects purely off of your interactive reads from last night, who would they be?

Not really how it works. The list won't be useful until we lynch a baddie.

I am voting Marmot.

[Sloonei]

In a lot of recent games I've had the impression that most of the Day 1 noise was town-on-town aggression. I don't have that impression here. At least one major contributor is bad.

Define major contributers.

Then take a side.

I loved this post from speedchuck. I felt like he was really trying to dig into me. It wasn't just a call for clarity. He also demanded an action out of me in the process. It put him in the top tier of my town reads.

Arguing against my own impulse here, the "major contributors" were fairly prominent at this point, and my vote had been on Kyle for most of the phase, so my side should have been fairl obvious.

[Sloonei]

@Sloonei

Kylemii == cBob

Think about it

Potential TMI?

[Sloonei]

Mac, if you were to base your suspects purely off of your interactive reads from last night, who would they be?

Not really how it works. The list won't be useful until we lynch a baddie.

I am voting Marmot.

Why marmot?

[speedchuck]

speedchuck - this guy

Spacedaisy - dead and confirmed

MacDougall - I have loved everything that Mac has done except for his buddying the crap out of me. That bothers me. But everything else reeks of town effort. He's committal, he pursues ALL avenues (even looking at the coalignment of the person he reads town), and he puts in way more effort than he would need to as mafia.

Epignosis - It is statistically unlikely that Epignosis is mafia. Not impossible, but decent amounts of unlikely. Say 7% odds that Epi is town. And then I get to my read on him. I agree that a lot of the suspicion on Epi comes from "buyer's remorse." If you look at Epi, the purpose of his posts, and the attitude in which they are made, it becomes apparent (in my opinion.) Sure, Epi tone reads as bad. Sure, he's made some mistakes, some inconsistent reads, and has made some odd calls. But I'm not getting 'mafia' out of any of them that strongly.
Epi's posts have changed in opinion, and not in a way convenient to him. His focus has been on agitating the thread. Even when everyone suspects him, he continues making posts that try to pressure people and reveal more. He has the attitude of a hunter, even in all of this. I will be surprised if Epi were to flip scum, especially just looking at the odds.

Long Con - Long Con reminds me of Long Con. A little push here, a little push there, a giant case out of nowhere... plus, his case on me is one of the best contructed in the thread! Even if it is wrong, that's my fault more than his. Mechanics aside, I don't have anything negative to say about LC, and that's more than I can say about most people in this game.

DrWilgy - totally stealing my "why not" response when asked about his vote. Wilgy hasn't contributed a whole lot to this game, but that's what I expect. What he has put in included clear reads on some of the players, dichotomies about alignment, and votes/suggestions that keep the thread inherently less stable. Which is a good thing for town. ISOing the guy is quick and easy, feel free to correct me if you think Wilgy's coming from a bad standpoint. Or just vote the guy. Wilgy delivers under pressure, as I remember from Pirates. (I got him killed anyway, but that's beside the point.)

nutella - She was going to be lower on my list. I had her under Spacedaisy II. But then I looked back at her posts, and I saw two things:
1. she started out with reads completely opposite Mac's. No lack of initiative with them either.
2. Her current position mirrors mine a little bit, as far as what her reads are.
So she feels like she's in a good place to me, and she's been mostly consistent with the way her reads develop. Unafraid of backlash. That said, some of her posts seem opportunistic, and I am in bad need of a rainbow from her, since a lot of her posts only focus on one or two people. I want a huge readcommit from her. That would push her into light green.

Kylemii - Did not like the way he responded to JJJ's initial brick. It wasn't like Kylemii, but he's grown on me since. And hey, I don't know what it's like for Kyle to recieve unreasonable, sudden pressure. First time that it's happened in my remembrance. It's been a hard climb, but Kylemii is back up to null. If he does turn out mafia, hopefully teammate interactions will reveal him down the road, and then we'll finally have a data point for scum!kyle. (Kylemii is also my top pick for third party. Ask me about it. Go on. )

Spacedaisy the second - Sounds like the first one, and she was town. More content, but that's been explained. Hesitant to give Daisy any high read on this account, as it's easy to 'pick up where you left off.' Also, she's only made like 5-7 posts.

JaggedJimmyJay - I don't freaking know. I kind of want him to be teammates with Sloonei, laughing and sharing pillow talk as they dominate the thread and twist us this way and that. At times JJJ seems really genuine, and his meta bears that out. At other times, it seems like he's using hyperbole and emotional appeals to cover up his lack of substance, like he did in Phenon. GTH I'd probably just die.
I'm biased, but JJJ's turnaround on me looked like crap, too. I don't think I've ever seen JJJ look at a case on one of his townreads that he'd promised to evaluate, say "duuuhhh okay looks like my job is done for me" and then vote.
Mitigated by the fact that he moved away just as quick.
Like I said, GTH I'd probably just die. Gonna say town though. *dies*


Gonna post this before I lose it. Last 6 coming soon.
linki [mention]Sloonei[/mention]: If I rolled my eyes any harder at that TMI suggestion, I'd get a strike in a miniature eye bowling alley

[Long Con]

If I rolled my eyes any harder at that TMI suggestion, I'd get a strike in a miniature eye bowling alley

[nutella]

[mention]speedchuck[/mention], I could try a rainbow but I am feeling very ill-equipped to commit to most of my reads right now since I really keep flipping back and forth on them. I really need to learn something from this lynch, and I don't think I'll be able to even begin to rest until I know Sloonei's alignment at least.


lol @ "GTH I'd probably just die." That summarizes how I feel about this game so far

[MacDougall]

Mac, if you were to base your suspects purely off of your interactive reads from last night, who would they be?

Not really how it works. The list won't be useful until we lynch a baddie.

I am voting Marmot.

Why marmot?

I don't think his read on me is sincere.

I am phone based so I can't case build well. Read through my iso for mentions of him and you should get the gist.

[speedchuck]

speedchuck, I could try a rainbow but I am feeling very ill-equipped to commit to most of my reads right now since I really keep flipping back and forth on them. I really need to learn something from this lynch, and I don't think I'll be able to even begin to rest until I know Sloonei's alignment at least.


lol @ "GTH I'd probably just die." That summarizes how I feel about this game so far

Working on the rest of my reads right now. Go ahead and throw a list out there. I don't care if you change your mind two posts later. Give me a C-section of your mindset, so that I can ask you how your reads progressed later and then townread you or lynch you for it.

[nutella]

MacDougall
DrWilgy
Kylemii
Dyslexicon
FZ.
Spacedaisy
Epignosis
novaselinenever
LoRab
Long Con
speedchuck
JaggedJimmyJay
Marmot
Sloonei

Ugh this is so arbitrary. I... I really don't put much stock in any of this. But GTH right now it's something like this.

[speedchuck]

FZ. - early game, asked a lot of questions that were not super helpful. More like "who do I vote?" Roleplays as Tevye with all the "one hand other hand" posts. If I thought it was on purpose, I'd townread his clever play. As it is, it's very non-comittal and wishy washy.
. . .
Then the play on LC comes around. It's like Epi junior. Probably wrong, but there's no scum motive for slamming LC with weird meta suggestions. This is original content, and FZ knows that LC can put up a fight. And he was behind on all of those wishy washy posts.
Is this... is this POE?
Welcome to the yellow/light green zone, FZ


Marmot - did not like the unwillingness D1 to put a vote somewhere that mattered. Also possible distancing from Dizzy, who is down there. The one thing I can read good on is his frustration in the topic, regarding 'shitty' lynches. As Dizzy noted later in the game, Marmot has done a lot of defending himself. But he's also not been shy about it.
I go back and forth a LOT when reading through his ISO. Could be scum. In no way is that ruled out. I'd rather lynch any of the four people below.

novaselinenever - apparently in four games at once, and the big posters are blowing this thread to bits. I can't put him with all my beloved neutrals, though, even when his absence is understandable.
Has contributed nothing.
At the very least, he could have picked a single post from this game and nailed it with a tone read. But no, nothing. I have nothing to compare this to.

Sloonei - his turnabout on me is garbage. I can't read the "oh, if you play a better townie while mafia then you must be mafia" vote without having a spasmodic fit. That's one way to excuse and turn around a convenient townread you've been using. Bull friggin crap.
Different point:
Amusingly, Sloonei never actually tunneled on cBob when he was town in mountains. It was a constant suspicion, but I never saw him pursue it super hard.
Final point: I really think one of the main three is scum, and Sloonei is my top guess. I'm sorry if I'm wrong, Sloonbeard. You feel off, and that's the best argument I can give you. This readlist/thread review is taking all of my remaining time today. I'm probably just going to have to hope I don't die in MK mafia.

Dyslexicon - Buddied me all game. Pretty decent effort in the catch-up posts, but it's not the Dizzy I remember from Phenon at all. (No, I haven't had time to look at currents). Town Dizzy is, as I remember, confrontational, sassy, and in your face to the point of discomfort with the weird tongue lady gifs.
This Dizzy isn't giving me much from her posts. I'm just not getting anything. Lots of 'feels' and 'probably's. Votes and positions are easy, go along to get along.
Read her ISO and tell me you see person who cares about the roof. I'll grab my nail gun.

LoRab - no reason to read town. I suspected her in early game, but don't remember the context. I'm tired, and I've been working on this readlist for over an hour. Tell me if there's a reason to townread LoRab.
Also compatible with my other scumreads.

[speedchuck]

My first vote choice is Sloonei. I can switch to anyone else I had in red or orange, but I prefer to lynch Sloonei or Dizzy.

[Sloonei]

Lynching me today would be even more stupid than yesterday

[MacDougall]

Your red skittles could be a team. Sloonei what's your stance on dizzy and Lorab?

[Sloonei]

Speedchuck, you are still one of my top town reads.

[LoRab]

Much catch up. I am sure I missed some posts that I meant to answer.

I'm not seeing baddie LA. I also feel like there was quite the bandwagon going on earlier against her, although it seems to have moved off.

I'm going to vote Epi for now. I'm not feeling great and may fall asleep on the keyboard, so want to be sure to not forget to vote. He's really the only one I'm noticing who is playing their baddie game.

nutella it's interesting, Lorab only made 7 posts and one of them she took the time to make a civ read on you yet here you are with a mafia read on her? 7 posts, one of which is a civ clear on you and you think she is Mafia? What's that based on?

it's complicated. we have a history

lorab and I used to always trust each other because we often had similar thought processes/styles. I think she may be working with a slightly outdated view of my meta because she hasn't played with me very recently and I've been changing up quite a bit I think (or trying to), but she still correctly identifies me as town which could be legitimate but also could be lazy or (as you suggest about marmot) that she knows I'm good because she's bad. Since she hasn't been participating much at all it felt lazy to me, like she felt as if our past extensive familiarity with each other specially qualified her to weigh in on me. and I know she's been too busy to keep up/hasn't been online much, but I'm uncomfortable with how little she has said.

however, I think I had forgotten she'd called out Epi on her own terms. So actually scratch her being a likely teammate for him. I don't think she'd bus that hard.

It's more that I saw a bandwagon form against you out of nowhere, which made me believe you were likely not bad. The reasons people were giving didn't really resonate--I not so much meant I thought you were civ, but that I didn't have compelling reason to think you bad, or to get why there was a slew of votes being cast your way at that moment.

Reason for reading Nut as town is basically emotional tone from her posts. She also doesn't seem to get flinched and have views I can follow and rather agree with. To be fair we did (I think both) genuinly misread each other when we were on opposite scum teams, but that is a difference dynamic anyway. She reads genuine to me.

Reason for suspecting FZ is just an apologetic tone and always being on the back burner. I also don't think she vibes very different than from the one game I've played with her when she was scum (but I was also scum with her and knew her alignment then). Content is little and a bit vague.

Btw, LoRab's posts are reading very vague and scummy to me. I think Epig mentioned him having misread her before, but they seem like very "general typical scum" posts afaic. Players with meta on her, what do you think?

@MacDoug, What's your reasoning for Nut and FZ read?

I don't think we've ever played together. So, hi. Nice to meet you. This is generaly how I play--my posts often seem like they are "general typical scum" to those who have come from more typical gaming sites than those I have ever played on. If you have any specific questions, I'm happy to answer them. Other than that, you don't really give me anything to defend on.

I voted LoRab. I don't have any other reason than the posts sounds meh to me. Hi, LoRab, write an angry letter to me.

Why would I write an angry letter? Not really my style. Unless someone really pisses me off, and you are no where near doing that, lol. But, really 1 vote on day 1 doesn't make me angry. It makes me wonder why you suspect me, but I'm not angry.

That is one thing you and I can agree on, but more on that when I post the coherent version of my thoughts later. First let's hear some conversation in here and it better be more than conversation about freaking Kyle or people just saying Epi is a foregone conclusion. That's just about as lame as my lynch was. Even if he is lynched, don't sit there and twiddle your thumbs and say, aren't we all just voting Epi?

Since you've had a 24-hour period of just being able to ruminate without posting, I have a request of you. I'm going to put some pairings below. Make the assumption, in each pairing, that one is scum and one is not. Then tell me which one you'd shoot.

Epi vs Jay
Epi vs Sloonei
Dizzy vs FZ
LoRab vs Marmot

Feel free to throw one out if you have no thoughts on it, or throw another pair in.

Epi
Epi
Dizzy
LoRab

y tho

I'd have picked FZ and Marmot for sure (well Lorab vs Marmot is less sure but. guise dizzy is fosho town yo)

tell me about those two picks

Dizzy vs. FZ was a gut check. I got some mild honest vibes from FZ earlier, but it's not something I could really articulate, or something I'd hold onto. I'm still not sure why you're so sure about Dizzy.
LoRab's got 8 posts and I think more than half of them have an apology for being out of the thread. I always feel bad for bringing things like this up, but I prefer it to keeping my thoughts concealed when they could be helpful. To be clear, I fully believe her when she says she has reasons not to be here. But seeing that sort of thing in the thread always strikes me as potentially being a scum player seeking to avoid heavy scrutiny. Or a townie who doesn't want to appear like they're neglecting the game. I also felt like Marmot was sincere last night.

why is Dizzy fo sho town?

I generally post when I'm not going to be around, because my schedule tends to be different from that of others. I'm really just hoping that people will not think I'm purposefully neglecting the game--just struggling to find time the past few days. Things should clear up a bit now, though. Theoretically at least.

We had no nightkill last night, but nobody is talking about things that might have caused that. I have trouble identifying a clear-cut consensus town read, so a doctor save on Night 1 would be incredible but not impossible. What other roles are there that could have stopped a kill from going through?

How about :
Perchik is a revolutionary, wanting to usher in a new era to Russia. It didn't pan out so well. To shake things up, he will redirect a player every night.

If that's the case, it means Perchik got the Constable, no?

@linki: What's LMS?

How would Perchik targeting the Constable prevent a kill? I'm not understanding what you're saying.

Can someone summarize LC's case against Speedchuck? I missed it in my read through and would love the gist of it.

[Sloonei]

Your red skittles could be a team. Sloonei what's your stance on dizzy and Lorab?

I do not town read either of them at the moment

[nutella]

Lynching me today would be even more stupid than yesterday

[speedchuck]

Speedchuck, you are still one of my top town reads.

Cool.

I'm confused as hell then.

Vote Dizzy with me?

[MacDougall]

I don't think Sloonei is bad. He has no discernible teammates and has had non teammate interactions with everyone except the lowest low posters.

[DrWilgy]

I still think Kyle should still be an option so I'm voting there. I've been at a funeral all day, will catch up later.

[nutella]

I don't think Sloonei is bad. He has no discernible teammates and has had non teammate interactions with everyone except the lowest low posters.

What are his non-teammate interactions with Jay? And to what extent can any of the things you deem non-teammate interactions be explained away with WIFOM?

[nutella]

Sorry for your loss Wilgy.

[LoRab]

condolences Wilgy. Hope you found comfort in the funeral.

[MacDougall]

I don't think Sloonei is bad. He has no discernible teammates and has had non teammate interactions with everyone except the lowest low posters.

What are his non-teammate interactions with Jay? And to what extent can any of the things you deem non-teammate interactions be explained away with WIFOM?

A lot of interactions. Votes. Just natural.

They definitely can. Especially post me having done the analysis. Presumably the Mafia will now be conscious of it.

[FZ.]

LC's suspicion of Speedchuck makes me even more suspicious of him. Anyone want's to consider an LC vote before I go to bed and can't change my vote?

[FZ.]

People I'm not willing to vote for today:
Mac, Nutella, Speedchuck, Sloonei, Daisy, Mac and JJJ, though where did the latter disappear to?

People I wouldn't mind voting for:
LC, by far more than others, Dyslexicon, Marmot (though less than the others).

Others, I haven't really formed an opinion on or am still debating my stance

[FZ.]

How much time do we have until deadline? I think maybe my time is off

[Dyslexicon]

Hi hi hi. Quick post, and this will be the only post I post today for reasons.

@Speed - Only cause your "blah bla Dizzy" was the only thing I half read: Gurl. I have not been able to be around consistently in thread and interact with players over longer periods which I like to do and normally am able to do. You've played with me as both scum and town. You town read me when I was scum cause I was so much alike the usual Dizzy. So me being "different" is purely me not having the time to devote all my love to the game. That is fact. Phenon is my first game here a long time ago. You even have more meta if that's so important. Talking about gifs is lol. I can promise you one thing and that is when I do have a specific team with known teammates I am 580% more tryhard cause I absolutely hate to disappoint. That is why my Mafia win rate is ridiculous. Get over it. I'm not the lynch town is looking for.

I would watch any turn on me particularly close.

Right now I'm going to vote JJJ, this is purely on intution and I didn't like his attitude on Epig.

I also do not think that Epig is mafia.

In this game there are a lot of roles. Since we can't information dump or claim I find it particularly important that we don't discuss the mights and maybe's of things - this is importnat. I want to be listened to (which is my biggest frustration not having enough time to devote to the game.) Let everything be, but if you're town you do well to keep all possibilities in mind WITHOUT airing them in thread. Very important.

So I'm persuing a lynch on JJJ personally. But honestly, I've hardly skimmed. I will be able to catch up and post come night time. I've been working, pouring milk all over my body all day (yeah that's my work). Even if I go for this I also see valid options in Lorab and NVN (for being a total non-contributer) also. Take it for what it's worth.

I have nothing else and will give nothing else. Anyone who wants to vote me should state reasons clearly and ISO me first, and tell me I'm not trying from a town point of view. They should also have good reason why they're voting me specifically over any other "low contributer". And I'm never inactive when I can post.

[FZ.]

Hi hi hi. Quick post, and this will be the only post I post today for reasons.

@Speed - Only cause your "blah bla Dizzy" was the only thing I half read: Gurl. I have not been able to be around consistently in thread and interact with players over longer periods which I like to do and normally am able to do. You've played with me as both scum and town. You town read me when I was scum cause I was so much alike the usual Dizzy. So me being "different" is purely me not having the time to devote all my love to the game. That is fact. Phenon is my first game here a long time ago. You even have more meta if that's so important. Talking about gifs is lol. I can promise you one thing and that is when I do have a specific team with known teammates I am 580% more tryhard cause I absolutely hate to disappoint. That is why my Mafia win rate is ridiculous. Get over it. I'm not the lynch town is looking for.

I would watch any turn on me particularly close.

Right now I'm going to vote JJJ, this is purely on intution and I didn't like his attitude on Epig.

I also do not think that Epig is mafia.

In this game there are a lot of roles. Since we can't information dump or claim I find it particularly important that we don't discuss the mights and maybe's of things - this is importnat. I want to be listened to (which is my biggest frustration not having enough time to devote to the game.) Let everything be, but if you're town you do well to keep all possibilities in mind WITHOUT airing them in thread. Very important.

So I'm persuing a lynch on JJJ personally. But honestly, I've hardly skimmed. I will be able to catch up and post come night time. I've been working, pouring milk all over my body all day (yeah that's my work). Even if I go for this I also see valid options in Lorab and NVN (for being a total non-contributer) also. Take it for what it's worth.

I have nothing else and will give nothing else. Anyone who wants to vote me should state reasons clearly and ISO me first, and tell me I'm not trying from a town point of view. They should also have good reason why they're voting me specifically over any other "low contributer". And I'm never inactive when I can post.

I don't think I understand why you're voting JJJ.
I don't understand your notion of not discussing things in the thread. I think we can all think of the possibilities, and so can the baddies, sometimes even better than us, so throwing ideas out there will not point fingers in anyone's direction. I don't know what to make of this post. I'm trying to figure out if this is genuine or you're trying to look like you have some important role that you're afraid will be put out there if we discuss things. Since I don't see how that can happen, I'm finding this not genuine at the moment. I'm still debating whether to change my vote to you or not

[Dyslexicon]

I think FZ is more likely town than not.

Yeah, I lied about that being my only post. : p

It's also fine not to understand.

[Dyslexicon]

And FZ more likely town is purely based on that one reply, and also putting Mac twice in his do-not-lynch (but that is kind of weak looks more like town stream of consciousness).

[Epignosis]

This Guy

This Guy is a Russian Official who demands that pogroms be carried out to assert Russian authority. He will inflict a punishment of his choice on a player each night.

If "punishment" means "curse," I haven't seen any evidence of this today.

[FZ.]

I'm going to leave it on LC. I'll give you the BOTD another day. I'm going to bed. I'd like people to tell me what kind of player LC is when he's a civ, at least from their point of view,

Good night...

@linki: curse seems like a weak power to have with only 3 mafia. I fear it's going to be something worse

[Dyslexicon]

If "punishment" means "curse," I haven't seen any evidence of this today.

I don't think this is something to look for.
Let's lynch scum instead. Also plz move your vote cause I asked.

[Marmot]

If i'm going to be blanketed with scum reads can you all at least do me the courtesy of including a reason? "Your tone is phony" and "you don't care about the roof" do not qualify as reasons.

It's your role that makes you scummy. Don't you understand?

What is your read on Epignosis?

I still think he's mafia. But I don't have the motivation to do anything about it right now.