MAD MAX: GAME OVER

#4321

LoRab wrote:Quin: In a few sentences: What originally made you completely convinced that Dom was bad?

I was not 'completely convinced' until about Day 7, when I did my proper ISO looking at the occurrences where he would lash out against questions he didn't respond to properly. Everything I've discussed since has solidified that.

#4322

LoRab wrote:Quin: In a few sentences: What originally made you completely convinced that Dom was bad?

Dom: In a few sentences: What originally made you completely convinced that Quin was bad?

Process of elimination. That's completely convinced. I mean, I don't think you are bad and I don't think Sloonei is bad. Therefore, Quin is bad.

However, suspicions rose when I thought he was being unfair to me on Day 6. I thought he was trying to paint me in a certain light (a negative one) rather than talk to me. He has continually avoided voting baddies by voting me and trying to get me lynched instead of the last two baddies we have nabbed. His internal logic on his reasoning here makes no sense and matches the strategy that Epig used to try and get the lynch of of Glorfindel.

#4323

Interestingly, you're the one who most often was seen as the one refusing to talk, Dom.

#4324

G-Man wrote:
NIGHT PROWLER

The tensile yield strength of stainless steel is 31,200 pounds per square inch. At this point, the pressure being applied causes permanent deformation of the metal. The tensile ultimate strength of stainless steel is a whopping 73,200 pounds per square inch. At this point, the metal will fracture or shatter, depending on thickness and form.

In contrast, human skin will tear when 100 pounds of force per square inch (give or take) is applied to it. But that's just the epidermis. The dermal layer is thicker and fuller, requiring more force, pressure, or torque to puncture. Not a whole lot more but enough to make a difference. Subcutaneous tissue is dense, adipose tissue in particular, and varies in thickness. Adipose tissue becomes firmer where more and more of it gathers. Depending on the individual, this layer could be as soft as room temperature butter or or as stiff as canvas. Muscle fibers are stronger yet, though the amount of resistance they provide depends on the quantity present, the fitness of the area being penetrated, and any tension exerted to that muscle group at the time.

Bones are another thing entirely. At the weakest point on small bones like fingers and toes, only 25 pounds of pressure is required to cause a fracture. The larger and denser the bone, the more force it takes to break. The average human femur requires 1,700 pounds per square inch to generate a clean, all-the-way-through break.

While this all may sound like the human body is no match for stainless steel, consider that all of these pressure ratings are per square inch. The smaller the puncturing object, the more magnified the pressure becomes on the tip. The sharper the knife and the finer the point, the more susceptible it is to breaking.

Breaking a knife inside a human body depends on a number of factors. Some we've already discussed- body mass, density of adipose tissue in relation to the puncture point, fitness and tension of the muscle fibers, the presence of any bones in the path of the blade. Other factors includes the movement of the body being stabbed, the size and form of the blade being used, and the experience of the attacker with stabbing people.

Bubba Zanetti was better with a pistol than he was with a knife but it was a useful exercise nonetheless (no need to draw attention to yourself with a gunshot after all). Insertnamehere was lean, fit, and struggled mightily. Bubba managed ten successful strikes in the side and back before his victim's twisting cause the knife to break across one of his ribs. By that point, however, the damage was done.

He suffered but not for too long.

--------------------------------------------

INSERTNAMEHERE has been killed.

It is now Day 11.

THANK YOU BUBBA ZANETTI

looks like my reverse psychology worked like a charm

#4325

Quin wrote:
Sloonei wrote:Earlier in the game we did an exercise where a few of us tried to give one-sentence reasons why everyone could be town. I'd like to see Quin do that for Dom.
Dom refused to answer questions properly in RoT3K and he was town.

I don't even know what this means.

#4326

Dom wrote:
Quin wrote:
Sloonei wrote:Earlier in the game we did an exercise where a few of us tried to give one-sentence reasons why everyone could be town. I'd like to see Quin do that for Dom.
Dom refused to answer questions properly in RoT3K and he was town.
I don't even know what this means.

Spoiler: show

#4327

sigh.
that has nothing to do with this game.

and is less funny now.

#4328

Dom wrote:sigh.
that has nothing to do with this game.

and is less funny now.

Thanks for giving me permission not to associate that with town behaviour, then.

#4329

That's not what I said.

What does not answering questions "properly" mean?
Like you are just grand supreme questioner?

#4330

Dom wrote:That's not what I said.

What does not answering questions "properly" mean?
Like you are just grand supreme questioner?

properly
ˈprɒp(ə)li/Submit
adverb
1.
correctly or satisfactorily.
"ensuring the work is carried out properly"
2.
in the strict sense; exactly.
"algebra is, properly speaking, the analysis of equations"

#4331

I know what the word properly means.

In context you are using it to mean: I didn't answer questions the way you wanted me to.

That's an awfully suspicious line of thinknig.

#4332

Dom wrote:I know what the word properly means.

In context you are using it to mean: I didn't answer questions the way you wanted me to.

That's an awfully suspicious line of thinknig.

No. You don't answer questions at all. And when you get pressed for more information you lash out at them.
However, you also lash out when people don't answer questions the way you want them to. I pointed this specific part out in your interactions of LoRab, which you immediately attempted to discredit.

#4333

Quin wrote:
Dom wrote:I know what the word properly means.

In context you are using it to mean: I didn't answer questions the way you wanted me to.

That's an awfully suspicious line of thinknig.
No. You don't answer questions at all. And when you get pressed for more information you lash out at them.
However, you also lash out when people don't answer questions the way you want them to. I pointed this specific part out in your interactions of LoRab, which you immediately attempted to discredit.

I have done nothing but answer questions since Day 6.

#4334

Dom wrote:
Quin wrote:
Dom wrote:I know what the word properly means.

In context you are using it to mean: I didn't answer questions the way you wanted me to.

That's an awfully suspicious line of thinknig.
No. You don't answer questions at all. And when you get pressed for more information you lash out at them.
However, you also lash out when people don't answer questions the way you want them to. I pointed this specific part out in your interactions of LoRab, which you immediately attempted to discredit.
I have done nothing but answer questions since Day 6.

Tell that to my constant attempts to engage in a dialogue with you since Day 6.

#4335

Will whichever of you is bad just confess?

#4336

Quin wrote:
Dom wrote:
Quin wrote:
Dom wrote:I know what the word properly means.

In context you are using it to mean: I didn't answer questions the way you wanted me to.

That's an awfully suspicious line of thinknig.
No. You don't answer questions at all. And when you get pressed for more information you lash out at them.
However, you also lash out when people don't answer questions the way you want them to. I pointed this specific part out in your interactions of LoRab, which you immediately attempted to discredit.
I have done nothing but answer questions since Day 6.
Tell that to my constant attempts to engage in a dialogue with you since Day 6.

If by constant attempt at dialogue you mean voting me to avoid voting for your teammates, then you are absolutely correct-- I avoided dialgoue with you.

#4337

Dom wrote:
Quin wrote:
Dom wrote:
Quin wrote:
Dom wrote:I know what the word properly means.

In context you are using it to mean: I didn't answer questions the way you wanted me to.

That's an awfully suspicious line of thinknig.
No. You don't answer questions at all. And when you get pressed for more information you lash out at them.
However, you also lash out when people don't answer questions the way you want them to. I pointed this specific part out in your interactions of LoRab, which you immediately attempted to discredit.
I have done nothing but answer questions since Day 6.
Tell that to my constant attempts to engage in a dialogue with you since Day 6.
If by constant attempt at dialogue you mean voting me to avoid voting for your teammates, then you are absolutely correct-- I avoided dialgoue with you.

No, I am referring to posts like this...

Spoiler: show

and this...

Spoiler: show

and this...

Spoiler: show

and this...

Spoiler: show

and this...

Spoiler: show

and this...

Spoiler: show

and this...

Spoiler: show

#4338

Almost all of those are about the same thing. No, I didn't go back after I needed space from the thread and double check for everything.

And specifically on the mac issue, I did respond to you. You just didn't like hwat you heard.

#4339

Dom wrote:Almost all of those are about the same thing. No, I didn't go back after I needed space from the thread and double check for everything.

And specifically on the mac issue, I did respond to you. You just didn't like hwat you heard.

It doesn't matter what they were about. The fact is for nearly an entire day and night phase you completely ignored me in my effort to get a better read on you. And on the Mac issue, you didn't properly answer me until much later. Your initial response was:

Spoiler: show

Which you then used my reply as a basis to shade me with the idea that I wouldn't bother coming up with a proper case against you because I didn't know your track record when it came to being lynched.

#4340

i think you thought I might be an easy lynch.

#4341

I put my vote on Quin.

#4342

Sloonei wrote:I put my vote on Quin.

I'd like to know why.

#4343

Sloonei wrote:I put my vote on Quin.

Really? Because I was leaning the other way. Shit, man.

#4344

Quin wrote:
Sloonei wrote:I put my vote on Quin.
I'd like to know why.

You have not seemed receptive enough to alternative theories to your "Dom is bad" position. I'd like to see evidence that you seriously entertained the idea that myself or LoRab could be bad.

#4345

Sloonei wrote:
Quin wrote:
Sloonei wrote:I put my vote on Quin.
I'd like to know why.
You have not seemed receptive enough to alternative theories to your "Dom is bad" position. I'd like to see evidence that you seriously entertained the idea that myself or LoRab could be bad.

There is not a single thing in this game that I can say points towards a townie Dom. His posts. His attitude. His interactions. It is impossible for me to entertain the idea of either of you being bad when I see no feasible scenario in which Dom is a civilian. You're right that I'm not 'receptive' enough to the alternatives, because nothing anyone has had to say, nor anything I've found in yours or LoRab's posts since the outset of my suspicion has come anywhere near the point that would make me question my read. That does not mean I'm not listening. Whatever 'evidence' you're looking for doesn't exist, because I haven't found a reason to entertain it.

What I have done is found solid reasons to see LoRab as town. I have not extended the same courtesy to you, because you've never inspired me. But it can't be you, because it's Dom.

#4346

I'll have a look through the thread again tomorrow evening. Right now I have to be up in a few hours for work again in the morning. It never stops. My mind is far from made up. I'll refrain from asking questions for now because I assume all the answers I am looking for are already in the thread.

#4347

Quin wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Quin wrote:
Sloonei wrote:I put my vote on Quin.
I'd like to know why.
You have not seemed receptive enough to alternative theories to your "Dom is bad" position. I'd like to see evidence that you seriously entertained the idea that myself or LoRab could be bad.
There is not a single thing in this game that I can say points towards a townie Dom. His posts. His attitude. His interactions. It is impossible for me to entertain the idea of either of you being bad when I see no feasible scenario in which Dom is a civilian. You're right that I'm not 'receptive' enough to the alternatives, because nothing anyone has had to say, nor anything I've found in yours or LoRab's posts since the outset of my suspicion has come anywhere near the point that would make me question my read. That does not mean I'm not listening. Whatever 'evidence' you're looking for doesn't exist, because I haven't found a reason to entertain it.

What I have done is found solid reasons to see LoRab as town. I have not extended the same courtesy to you, because you've never inspired me. But it can't be you, because it's Dom.

See, this is the kind of internal contradiction that makes no sense.

He says that he's "receptive" to other arguments to appear open minded and ready for dialogue. However, this post totally destroys that. He's not open minded at all.

We have discussed why we don't think LoRab is bad. I think Sloonei is civ. I could be wrong on one of those two fronts, but Quin is my best guess at a baddie.

#4348

Dom wrote:
Quin wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Quin wrote:
Sloonei wrote:I put my vote on Quin.
I'd like to know why.
You have not seemed receptive enough to alternative theories to your "Dom is bad" position. I'd like to see evidence that you seriously entertained the idea that myself or LoRab could be bad.
There is not a single thing in this game that I can say points towards a townie Dom. His posts. His attitude. His interactions. It is impossible for me to entertain the idea of either of you being bad when I see no feasible scenario in which Dom is a civilian. You're right that I'm not 'receptive' enough to the alternatives, because nothing anyone has had to say, nor anything I've found in yours or LoRab's posts since the outset of my suspicion has come anywhere near the point that would make me question my read. That does not mean I'm not listening. Whatever 'evidence' you're looking for doesn't exist, because I haven't found a reason to entertain it.

What I have done is found solid reasons to see LoRab as town. I have not extended the same courtesy to you, because you've never inspired me. But it can't be you, because it's Dom.
See, this is the kind of internal contradiction that makes no sense.

He says that he's "receptive" to other arguments to appear open minded and ready for dialogue. However, this post totally destroys that. He's not open minded at all.

We have discussed why we don't think LoRab is bad. I think Sloonei is civ. I could be wrong on one of those two fronts, but Quin is my best guess at a baddie.

'Listening' and 'being receptive to' are not synonymous. I'm willing to listen to the arguments other people are making and have a conversation about them. Hell, that's was my intention when I questioned LoRab's decision to tie the vote yesterday. That doesn't mean that I'm going to change my mind when the arguments I'm provided with are weak-sauce in comparison to yours.

#4349

LoRab, why are you leaning toward Dom? This day and the game depend on the two of us coming to an agreement. Let's put our heads together.

#4350

I'll buy you a smaller set of tweezers to keep splitting those hairs, Quin.

#4351

Sloonei wrote:LoRab, why are you leaning toward Dom? This day and the game depend on the two of us coming to an agreement. Let's put our heads together.

Tone, mostly. He's posting like a trapped rabid animal, which I associate with his baddie game. It's connected to the paranoia which pinged me earlier.

What gives me hesitation is that I don't know Quin's game that well, and it scares me that he seems so sure of himself for whta doesn't seem like a rock solid case to me. But, that said, I associate stuboornness like that with civs more than baddies. Baddies don't generally want to stand out like that and stick to a case that doesn't make solid sense to others. They don't necessarily want their vote to be the outlier. He's voted Dom for how many days now?

#4352

Put vote on Dom for now

#4353

LoRab wrote:
Sloonei wrote:LoRab, why are you leaning toward Dom? This day and the game depend on the two of us coming to an agreement. Let's put our heads together.
Tone, mostly. He's posting like a trapped rabid animal, which I associate with his baddie game. It's connected to the paranoia which pinged me earlier.

What gives me hesitation is that I don't know Quin's game that well, and it scares me that he seems so sure of himself for whta doesn't seem like a rock solid case to me. But, that said, I associate stuboornness like that with civs more than baddies. Baddies don't generally want to stand out like that and stick to a case that doesn't make solid sense to others. They don't necessarily want their vote to be the outlier. He's voted Dom for how many days now?

I don't think I've ever seen a bad Dom before. What are some games I could look at for reference? The "trapped rabid animal" impression you have is the same I got from him on Day 6, but I read it as townie behavior at the time. If this is Dom's scum MO then that's big news.

Quin's confidence is not shocking or unbelievable to me. He holds onto convictions firmly when he has them. There was a game a couple months ago (I forget which one) where the two of us spent the entire time going hard after one another to the point where we couldn't see the other being town in any situation. We were both town. Most of my questions at Quin in this game have been an effort to get him to trip up or give me some thread I can tug at in case he's bad and he really has not given me much to work with. I've been reading him as town on every level but paranoia is getting to me. My vote for Quin was more about shaking things up than actually having a preference either way. I just re-read everything that happened around the deadline yesterday and I feel better about Quin again.

#4354

Quin wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:
Quin wrote:Here for an hour, yo. I voted indiglo.

I'm not seeing some of your case, zebra. When you first bring up his rainbow lists you claim that it's suspicious that he's only sorted it into three categories as though there's some sort of strong civ/strong bad quota that he's expected to meet. I think that's a poor case. That was a Day 1 list, too. I can understand why it's not so thorough.

However, I agree that it's odd to suggest that the people he's put at the bottom of his 5-tier list are 'not particularly crazy suspicious'. I'd be more inclined to believe it if he didn't bother adding a strong bad tier.
Regarding the underlined, that's not the whole case??? What???

Why make Day 1 rainbow lists (because that's right he made TWO rainbow lists on Day 1), which are meant to be thorough by definition, if they're not going to be thorough? Why not just list the reads that you feel relatively confident about and leave it at that, rather than trying to appear a thousand times more substantive? Come on.

linki - I'd be much more likely to vote for Scotty than indiglo. indiglo's frustration appears genuine to me, and if she were bad I actually think she would tone down the rage so as not to stand out as much. Scotty seems a bit too chill knowing that he's replaced a highly suspected slot. I have been wrong about him before though. Like earlier in this very game but hey whatever am I right

linki - I'll take my vote off of MP if (and only if) it is to prevent a tie.
Rainbow lists aren't particularly thorough at all in comparison to a built case. It's just a framework, for lack of a better word. I guess I am a little concerned about his decision to specify that his leanings were slight when a three-tier list generally doesn't go into that level of detail. I'd like him to address your concerns.

This is the most noteworthy interaction between zebra and quin and, once again, I think Quin comes out of it looking good. He addresses a concern he has about a specific aspect of zebra's mega-case against MP and shows that he is actively reading and thinking about the things that were being said. Zebra's response also looks sincere, in that she's trying to defend her case to Quin and not just vomiting word garbage at a teammate in the thread. Meanwhile, Dom's response to the same case was "this is really well done."

at a certain point I should just trust what my instincts are telling me and vote for Dom.

#4355

Dom wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:I come back to this thread and what do I find? Isn't this just charming... Seriously, if I'm the best you guys can come up with, we're in more trouble than I could've imagined...

I've literally read next to nothing that's been posted this Day phase so on the basis of my inability to make an informed decision right now, self preservation will determine my vote.
Emotional manipulation doesn't play well.

I've voted you at the moment for self preservation.

Was this vote cast out of self-preservation or because of Glorfindel's "emotional manipulation"?

#4356

I can't think of baddie games of Dom's off hand, but that's the impression that I have from years of playing with him, that he gets more trapped and emotional sounding when he's bad and suspected than when he's good and suspected. It's not scientific, but it's my overall sense of him.

And those are additional reasons to believe that Quin is more likely good.

#4357

Dom wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Dom wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Dom wrote:I do not suspect Elohcin.
Why not?
i don't think anything she's done is abnormal for her civvie game... maybe a better way of saying it is that nothing she's done has made me think she is bad
Can you differentiate between what she does as a civilian and what she does as Mafia?
No explicitly, no.

I just take more convincing than most to find Elohcin suspicious.

In the first line Dom admits to having difficulty reading Elohcin. In the second line he seems to suggest he has a particular outlook on Elohcin that others do not have. This looks like Dom giving Eloh a town read but not knowing how to back it up.

Sloonei wrote:
Dom wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Dom wrote:I do not suspect Elohcin.
Why not?
i don't think anything she's done is abnormal for her civvie game... maybe a better way of saying it is that nothing she's done has made me think she is bad
I don't disagree with this. What do you think of the case Neil Hartley made against her and the way he went about doing it?
Didn't convince me.
Don't necessarily think he's bad either.

Once again, zero elaboration.

#4358

Dom wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
insertnamehere wrote:Epi, blink twice if your vote was forced. Otherwise, I'm gonna have to agree with Zebra that your pithy evasive non-answers are only making this one small thing into something more and more fishy.
What do you mean by forced? On Day 1? With no public coercer role?
my thoughts exactly

"Yes, let's suspect INH for this bogus theory."

(let's pretend I didn't submit the ultimate bogus INH case this game)

#4359

Dom wrote:
Sloonei wrote:
Dom wrote:
Sloonei wrote:Dom once again sits out the lynch.
Hi there.
Excuse me?
You parked your vote on MP early on. Again.
Explain to me how that's sitting out.
I voted someone who I believed was baddie. I made multiple posts trying to convince others to vote with me.

LoRab wrote:I find curious that Dom hasn't responded to any of my posts that mention him...
You mean where you said I am more paranoid as a baddie? Ok. Cool. Where am I paranoid? Because I made a case against MP because I believed (and kind of still do, but see the limits of the reality here) that he was buddying me? How is that paranoid?

Or are you talking about this:
LoRab wrote: My other suspicions are more amorphous: the low posters because they don't give us anything to go on. I keep getting pings from Dom, but he has also said things that feel civ to me--but he's on my list of considerations.
Which is so unsubstantial I don't even know how you'd like me to respond.

This post is a shitstorm. You do the following things in it:
1) Make no direct accusation. Let others do that for you.
2) Imply malintent on my part by using relatively *neutral* words like curious, but pairing it with an ellipses.
3) Not even have anything really to respond to.

The LoRab sections of this post are 100% omgus.

#4360

voting Dom again. I owe Quin another look too, but my eyes don't feel much like staying open right now.

#4361

if dom wants to link me to some past scum games of his i'll be happy.

#4362

Sloonei wrote:
Dom wrote:
Glorfindel wrote:I come back to this thread and what do I find? Isn't this just charming... Seriously, if I'm the best you guys can come up with, we're in more trouble than I could've imagined...

I've literally read next to nothing that's been posted this Day phase so on the basis of my inability to make an informed decision right now, self preservation will determine my vote.
Emotional manipulation doesn't play well.

I've voted you at the moment for self preservation.
Was this vote cast out of self-preservation or because of Glorfindel's "emotional manipulation"?

Both.

Sloonei wrote:if dom wants to link me to some past scum games of his i'll be happy.

I feel like I have done this at least twice in this game. I have absolutely talked about this, maybe not linked, but talked about it.
I won this game bad
I wont this game bad
I lost this game bad.
I won this game bad, but replaced in.

Those are just recent-ish games.

#4363

I have been on the defensive since Day 6. I have done my best. It has sucked. I don't know what you want from me. I don't agree with or see Lorab's assessment of my play in any capacity.

#4364

Dom wrote:I have been on the defensive since Day 6. I have done my best. It has sucked. I don't know what you want from me. I don't agree with or see Lorab's assessment of my play in any capacity.

Show a civ game where you responded to every time your name was mentioned with the same level of emotional panic.

Show a baddie game where you responded more calmly to your name being mentioned.

The fact is in this game, as is your baddie MO, every time your name was mentioned (bad or good), it made your fur stand up, and it put you on the defensive.

I've doubted myself on you this game, because I don't read you as well as I used to. But you're bad, dude. I should have listened to those pings I had early on. Or listened to what it said when you first completely ignored and then totally freaked out that i had pings.

And also the fact that you accuse anyone who says anything about you that they are lying. Not that they are interpreting things incorrectly, or misremembering, or whatever--but that they are lying (and are bad).

The more I think about it, the more I'm feeling confident that you're the final baddie.

#4365

then lynch me so i get get off this site.

#4366

Are you threatening to leave this site for good if you're lynched? Really? Why?

#4367

No.
It was a mistake to post that.
I apologize.

#4368

I am simply struggling to read Quin as bad in this game. I have tried very hard to do so but the absolute best I can do is the occasional tinfoil ping here and there. Dom's frustration has seemed real the last few days, but that can be the case regardless of his alignment. I am intrigued by LoRab's most recent post about him. Are you able to respond to that, Dom?

#4369

If anything is making me doubt Quin, it's the things I said in this post:

Sloonei wrote:A couple thoughts about Epi started giving me pause in relation to Dom. I've vaguely referenced this earlier, but on Day 6 both Epi and Dom came out strongly against me in a spur of the moment attack. I have begun to doubt that that was a coordinated effort. There was no opportunity for the two of them to work out such a strategy beforehand; I made a post and Epi jammed it down my throat immediately. Dom picked up a subsequent suspicion of me for the same post. What reason would there be for two teammates to conspire to attack the same person for an as-yet undetermined case like that?

The other is Epi's concession. Even if he was having difficulty committing to this game and saw no room to defend himself, Epi is not one to throw a game away. Looking back on it, I feel uneasy. His behavior suggests to me that his teammate was, at the time, well-concealed and he felt confident in their ability to win the game without him, and so he sacrificed himself and snuffed the conversation for the day in the process. LoRab opted to extend the game today, so I give her a 0% chance of being a baddie at this point. INH is still Silvertongue. So this just leaves Quin (or me, from everyone else's perspective) as a candidate for Epi's hypothetical well-concealed partner.

#4370

Sloonei wrote:I am simply struggling to read Quin as bad in this game. I have tried very hard to do so but the absolute best I can do is the occasional tinfoil ping here and there. Dom's frustration has seemed real the last few days, but that can be the case regardless of his alignment. I am intrigued by LoRab's most recent post about him. Are you able to respond to that, Dom?

not particularly. for many reasons. most important is that the behavior she's describing is actually the result of me feeling antagonized by a player who played in the games i brought to you.

Who squashed LoRab?