Death Note Mafia [END]

[thellama73]

Or you could start a presidential meme game mafia.

I want to do Presidential Mafia, but 44 roles is too many and it would break my heart to leave anybody out.

[thellama73]

Can someone explain exactly what a Shinigami is? I think it's a supernatural entity of some kind.. a guardian? They have Death Notes? And Kira stole one from a Shinigami, or found a lost one, or something?

They are God of Death, I believe. Their "Death Notes" are books. They write a persons name and manner of death, and poof. Light (Kira) found one such notebook after it had fallen into earth.

I just said that, DH!

[boo]

Can someone explain exactly what a Shinigami is? I think it's a supernatural entity of some kind.. a guardian? They have Death Notes? And Kira stole one from a Shinigami, or found a lost one, or something?

They are God of Death, I believe. Their "Death Notes" are books. They write a persons name and manner of death, and poof. Light (Kira) found one such notebook after it had fallen into earth.

I just said that, DH!

Yes, but it doesn't make any sense, because there is only one god, and his name is Death. And there is only one thing we say to death: "bitch, you need a notebook to kill me."

[Matahari]

Happy birthday LC!

[DharmaHelper]

Can someone explain exactly what a Shinigami is? I think it's a supernatural entity of some kind.. a guardian? They have Death Notes? And Kira stole one from a Shinigami, or found a lost one, or something?

They are God of Death, I believe. Their "Death Notes" are books. They write a persons name and manner of death, and poof. Light (Kira) found one such notebook after it had fallen into earth.

I just said that, DH!

Linki caught me. My b.

[Marmot]

Guys, I finished episode 25 of Death Note, but I have to leave the rest for tomorrow,Presidents Day. (I wish there were a Grover Cleveland Day. Actually, I wish there were two non-consecutive Grover Cleveland Days.)

I'm now only 24 episodes behind you. Well, I'll catch up eventually.

[triceratopzeuhl]

Hey ladies


sorry I missed the start, just got back from celebrating my gparents wedding anniversary.

[triceratopzeuhl]

also #1 gets my vote, that and 3 are the only ones I could in good conscience even consider supporting

[triceratopzeuhl]

(trip post yolo) L and Light option is problematic at best, I don't really see why we would want the possibility of baddies giving their teammates more heavily weighted votes. Seems to me from the roles that they are a lot more likely to know who they are allied with than L will ever be.

[Ricochet]

Speaking of the Shinigamis, I want to ask the Host something about the following description available for all three Shinigami roles:

As a shinigami, he cannot be harmed by humans, nor can he be seen by humans who have not made contact with his Death Note

Is this an actual power or just for flavor? I could understand the harm part (i.e. unaffected by lynches, powers), but less so the detecting part. Anyway, this is for me an example of a tight blend between character trait and potential power, which is why I'm asking for clarification.

[S~V~S]

In a perfect world, the L/Light thing would work as you guys are saying. My concern (and it was the impetus behind my vote) is what if L is someone like me (disclaimer: it is NOT me)? In GoC2, I trusted one of the baddies the whole game. Let me qualify, I distrusted him Day 1, he made one remark, I turned around, and not only did i trust him the whole game, I fought for him. In another recent game, I have only voted for civvies. And I am not the only one.

If we have a couple of really slick, manipulative players as baddies and L is taken in by them... I think that is putting too much control in one civvies hands unless L is super astute. Which he may be. Or he may be someone like me, easily susceptible to flattery & letting someones demeanor influence opinion as to affiliation.

I do think L/Light might be a really powerful tool, but I also think it could also be a major fiasco, especially if Light is a stronger player than L. I already voted, and having read the points made after I went afk, I am happy with my vote.

Also, I intend to never trust DH again :P

Linki, you are speaking in sarcasm, that color is the very similar to the sarcasm font. Just an FYI

[Ricochet]

I did not use the sarc button, so no, I was not speaking in sarcasm. That being said, I have no idea why I actually used that colour. I thought I remembered someone, in some game, using it to speak to the host, but I can't remember where (Film? Donner?) and it made me do the same right now.

[Ricochet]

I'll ponder a bit more on whether to opt for a normal-type or a L/Light-type vote. I'd say in more inclined for the latter, even just for the perspective of an exciting, uncharacteristic and theme-centric angle in voting/gaming - alas nobody was pleased with my thematic speculations so far, so I won't insist on it. I can't fully admit, however, to be able to see the implications (or repercusions) of a L/Light-type vote to the extent that, for instance, boo and DH have argued thus far. Regarding my initial speculations, if the L/Light-type would become permanent or long-term, I'm starting to believe L would be able to check or form ideas of alignments and work with that slightly faster than Light would form a teammate camp (if he would be able to get it touch with his sympathizers at all, that is).

[Roxy]

Voted normal lynch bc I would like to have at least one thingin this game that I can understand. I wish I had not read the roles just yet bc it only helped to enhance my confusion as I read the thread.

[Elohcin]

Simon saw me reading this thread and is disappointed that Epi and I didn't tell him about this game. He said,"Why did you guys start without me?! I would have wanted to be L."

I'm waiting to cast my vote. I'm not sure an L and Light influenced lynch is a good idea.

[DharmaHelper]

In a perfect world, the L/Light thing would work as you guys are saying. My concern (and it was the impetus behind my vote) is what if L is someone like me (disclaimer: it is NOT me)? In GoC2, I trusted one of the baddies the whole game. Let me qualify, I distrusted him Day 1, he made one remark, I turned around, and not only did i trust him the whole game, I fought for him. In another recent game, I have only voted for civvies. And I am not the only one.

If we have a couple of really slick, manipulative players as baddies and L is taken in by them... I think that is putting too much control in one civvies hands unless L is super astute. Which he may be. Or he may be someone like me, easily susceptible to flattery & letting someones demeanor influence opinion as to affiliation.

I do think L/Light might be a really powerful tool, but I also think it could also be a major fiasco, especially if Light is a stronger player than L. I already voted, and having read the points made after I went afk, I am happy with my vote.

Also, I intend to never trust DH again :P

Linki, you are speaking in sarcasm, that color is the very similar to the sarcasm font. Just an FYI

That would be a fine criticism if L and Light could pick and choose the size of their lists. They can't. They *have* to pick half of the playerbase. Therefore, Light can't just *give* the mafia the advantage.

[DharmaHelper]

EBWOP: And L won't need to have a bulletproof list.

[Tangrowth]

Speaking of the Shinigamis, I want to ask the Host something about the following description available for all three Shinigami roles:

As a shinigami, he cannot be harmed by humans, nor can he be seen by humans who have not made contact with his Death Note

Is this an actual power or just for flavor? I could understand the harm part (i.e. unaffected by lynches, powers), but less so the detecting part. Anyway, this is for me an example of a tight blend between character trait and potential power, which is why I'm asking for clarification.

Very good question.

[Tangrowth]

Simon saw me reading this thread and is disappointed that Epi and I didn't tell him about this game. He said,"Why did you guys start without me?! I would have wanted to be L."

I'm waiting to cast my vote. I'm not sure an L and Light influenced lynch is a good idea.

Dang! Well, maybe someday I'll do a sequel and make it family-friendly!

Also, Simon's desire to be L is commendable.

[Epignosis]

For me, it boils down to this: The people supporting the L / Light choice are okay with their votes potentially not counting, are okay with the potentiality of Light safely distancing from Ryuk, are okay with Mafia increasing their voting strength, are okay with the lynches being a less instructive tool for finding Mafia, and are okay with targets being painted on the backs of civilians whose votes are worth more.

Don't make deals with the devil. Make people accountable for every vote cast. Don't give them the possible out, "Well, maybe my vote didn't count" or "Well, maybe my vote was worth more."

It bewilders me that, on a site where civilians lose 87% of the time in full games, supposed civilians would want give Mafia substantial control over the lynches.

[DharmaHelper]

For me, it boils down to this: The people supporting the L / Light choice are okay with their votes potentially not counting, are okay with the potentiality of Light safely distancing from Ryuk, are okay with Mafia increasing their voting strength, are okay with the lynches being a less instructive tool for finding Mafia, and are okay with targets being painted on the backs of civilians whose votes are worth more.

Don't make deals with the devil. Make people accountable for every vote cast. Don't give them the possible out, "Well, maybe my vote didn't count" or "Well, maybe my vote was worth more."

It bewilders me that, on a site where civilians lose 87% of the time in full games, supposed civilians would want give Mafia substantial control over the lynches.

I think I've said everything I could possibly on the matter. But I will say that I don't think anything you've pointed out is accurate. You seem to be under the impression that Light/Kira is the only one making a list and benefiting from this mechanic, which is not the case. L makes his list as well, and as such holds a great deal of influence.

You also seem to think Light/Kira has the advantage with this system because he can just buff up his team, which again is not the case. He has to choose half of the current playerbase to place on his list, and have their votes at least count for one. Even if he picks 100% of his team to be on his list, that still leaves room on his list for civvies, and it doesn't guarantee that 100% of his team will get buffed votes. We don't even know if Light KNOWS who his team apart from Ryuk are.

And finally, I don't understand your point about potential outs. "Maybe my vote didn't count." or "Maybe my vote was worth more" Doesn't mean shit, dude. A person is accountable for who they voted for, regardless of whether or not their votes counted and for how much. Surely you understand that? The only people who know (or have an idea) of if their votes are even affected are L and Light (and Possibly Ryuk), so immediately anyone saying "Hey maybe my vote was worth more/less" is suspicious. And again, it offers no out or excuse, because regardless of the value of the vote, that person cast their vote for someone, with the expectation that it counted. This is your weakest point by far and one I am "bewildered" you'd make.

[Turnip Head]

If we're losing 87% of our games, maybe that's a sign that we should try something different

I get what you're saying Epi and I also get where SVS is coming from. In my opinion it's a risk worth taking, but I won't be all that disappointed if Normal Mode wins out.

[DharmaHelper]

If we're losing 87% of our games, maybe that's a sign that we should try something different

like participating

[S~V~S]

If we're losing 87% of our games, maybe that's a sign that we should try something different

like participating

QFT

[Epignosis]

For me, it boils down to this: The people supporting the L / Light choice are okay with their votes potentially not counting, are okay with the potentiality of Light safely distancing from Ryuk, are okay with Mafia increasing their voting strength, are okay with the lynches being a less instructive tool for finding Mafia, and are okay with targets being painted on the backs of civilians whose votes are worth more.

Don't make deals with the devil. Make people accountable for every vote cast. Don't give them the possible out, "Well, maybe my vote didn't count" or "Well, maybe my vote was worth more."

It bewilders me that, on a site where civilians lose 87% of the time in full games, supposed civilians would want give Mafia substantial control over the lynches.

I think I've said everything I could possibly on the matter. But I will say that I don't think anything you've pointed out is accurate. You seem to be under the impression that Light/Kira is the only one making a list and benefiting from this mechanic, which is not the case. L makes his list as well, and as such holds a great deal of influence.

You also seem to think Light/Kira has the advantage with this system because he can just buff up his team, which again is not the case. He has to choose half of the current playerbase to place on his list, and have their votes at least count for one. Even if he picks 100% of his team to be on his list, that still leaves room on his list for civvies, and it doesn't guarantee that 100% of his team will get buffed votes. We don't even know if Light KNOWS who his team apart from Ryuk are.

And finally, I don't understand your point about potential outs. "Maybe my vote didn't count." or "Maybe my vote was worth more" Doesn't mean shit, dude. A person is accountable for who they voted for, regardless of whether or not their votes counted and for how much. Surely you understand that? The only people who know (or have an idea) of if their votes are even affected are L and Light (and Possibly Ryuk), so immediately anyone saying "Hey maybe my vote was worth more/less" is suspicious. And again, it offers no out or excuse, because regardless of the value of the vote, that person cast their vote for someone, with the expectation that it counted. This is your weakest point by far and one I am "bewildered" you'd make.

Light absolutely has the advantage in the system. Any boon to Mafia only benefits Mafia, while any boon to a civilian can benefit anyone, including Mafia. A Mafia with a kill, for example, is not a threat to its own team. A civilian killer, however, can decimate the civilians.

This option also gives Light a bounty of information. He will know whose vote is potentially worthless and whose vote is potentially worth more. The very act of making this list is informative. Counter by saying that L gets this information too all you want, but as far as I can tell, L doesn't kill and Light most likely does. Once again, the information will benefit Light more than it will L.

A person is accountable for who they voted for regardless? You must be new here.

[DharmaHelper]

For me, it boils down to this: The people supporting the L / Light choice are okay with their votes potentially not counting, are okay with the potentiality of Light safely distancing from Ryuk, are okay with Mafia increasing their voting strength, are okay with the lynches being a less instructive tool for finding Mafia, and are okay with targets being painted on the backs of civilians whose votes are worth more.

Don't make deals with the devil. Make people accountable for every vote cast. Don't give them the possible out, "Well, maybe my vote didn't count" or "Well, maybe my vote was worth more."

It bewilders me that, on a site where civilians lose 87% of the time in full games, supposed civilians would want give Mafia substantial control over the lynches.

I think I've said everything I could possibly on the matter. But I will say that I don't think anything you've pointed out is accurate. You seem to be under the impression that Light/Kira is the only one making a list and benefiting from this mechanic, which is not the case. L makes his list as well, and as such holds a great deal of influence.

You also seem to think Light/Kira has the advantage with this system because he can just buff up his team, which again is not the case. He has to choose half of the current playerbase to place on his list, and have their votes at least count for one. Even if he picks 100% of his team to be on his list, that still leaves room on his list for civvies, and it doesn't guarantee that 100% of his team will get buffed votes. We don't even know if Light KNOWS who his team apart from Ryuk are.

And finally, I don't understand your point about potential outs. "Maybe my vote didn't count." or "Maybe my vote was worth more" Doesn't mean shit, dude. A person is accountable for who they voted for, regardless of whether or not their votes counted and for how much. Surely you understand that? The only people who know (or have an idea) of if their votes are even affected are L and Light (and Possibly Ryuk), so immediately anyone saying "Hey maybe my vote was worth more/less" is suspicious. And again, it offers no out or excuse, because regardless of the value of the vote, that person cast their vote for someone, with the expectation that it counted. This is your weakest point by far and one I am "bewildered" you'd make.

Light absolutely has the advantage in the system. Any boon to Mafia only benefits Mafia, while any boon to a civilian can benefit anyone, including Mafia. A Mafia with a kill, for example, is not a threat to its own team. A civilian killer, however, can decimate the civilians.

This option also gives Light a bounty of information. He will know whose vote is potentially worthless and whose vote is potentially worth more. The very act of making this list is informative. Counter by saying that L gets this information too all you want, but as far as I can tell, L doesn't kill and Light most likely does. Once again, the information will benefit Light more than it will L.

A person is accountable for who they voted for regardless? You must be new here.

Explain to me this, Epi:

How does this system offer anyone an out as you have described it? In what way is "Maybe my vote was worth more, maybe it was worthless" a legitimate way to excuse voting for someone? Regardless of the value of the vote, the fact remains that the vote was cast. And in most cases it was cast with the expectation that it counted, and with the intent to lynch the person voted for. Maybe I'm dense and I don't get it, but I'm inviting you to explain to me what it is I'm missing.

As for the bounty of information, and how it benefits L/Light, I'm again unsure if I understand your point. It is a *requirement* that L and Light put 50% of the current playerbase on their lists. So neither list will be 100% mafia or 100% civilian, which means Light will have just as difficult a time figuring out L's intentions as L will have with Light's. Without knowing who is on the other list, L and Light are on even footing. There is legwork required to figure out even the most vague of details in order to do what you've described. Legwork that civilians are just as capable of doing, although (no offense intended) perhaps not willing to do.

[thellama73]

Simon saw me reading this thread and is disappointed that Epi and I didn't tell him about this game. He said,"Why did you guys start without me?! I would have wanted to be L."

I'm waiting to cast my vote. I'm not sure an L and Light influenced lynch is a good idea.

Dang! Well, maybe someday I'll do a sequel and make it family-friendly!

Also, Simon's desire to be L is commendable.

Simon can play Harry Stephen Keeler, which is up next, as long as he isn't offended by the occasional use of the terms "oriental", "chinaman" and "celestial." (it's the 1930s, what do you want me to do?)

[thellama73]

I'm increasingly starting to think Epi and SVS are right. I thought it would be fun to try a new mechanic, unless L is very good, we could be in serious trouble.

[Epignosis]

For me, it boils down to this: The people supporting the L / Light choice are okay with their votes potentially not counting, are okay with the potentiality of Light safely distancing from Ryuk, are okay with Mafia increasing their voting strength, are okay with the lynches being a less instructive tool for finding Mafia, and are okay with targets being painted on the backs of civilians whose votes are worth more.

Don't make deals with the devil. Make people accountable for every vote cast. Don't give them the possible out, "Well, maybe my vote didn't count" or "Well, maybe my vote was worth more."

It bewilders me that, on a site where civilians lose 87% of the time in full games, supposed civilians would want give Mafia substantial control over the lynches.

I think I've said everything I could possibly on the matter. But I will say that I don't think anything you've pointed out is accurate. You seem to be under the impression that Light/Kira is the only one making a list and benefiting from this mechanic, which is not the case. L makes his list as well, and as such holds a great deal of influence.

You also seem to think Light/Kira has the advantage with this system because he can just buff up his team, which again is not the case. He has to choose half of the current playerbase to place on his list, and have their votes at least count for one. Even if he picks 100% of his team to be on his list, that still leaves room on his list for civvies, and it doesn't guarantee that 100% of his team will get buffed votes. We don't even know if Light KNOWS who his team apart from Ryuk are.

And finally, I don't understand your point about potential outs. "Maybe my vote didn't count." or "Maybe my vote was worth more" Doesn't mean shit, dude. A person is accountable for who they voted for, regardless of whether or not their votes counted and for how much. Surely you understand that? The only people who know (or have an idea) of if their votes are even affected are L and Light (and Possibly Ryuk), so immediately anyone saying "Hey maybe my vote was worth more/less" is suspicious. And again, it offers no out or excuse, because regardless of the value of the vote, that person cast their vote for someone, with the expectation that it counted. This is your weakest point by far and one I am "bewildered" you'd make.

Light absolutely has the advantage in the system. Any boon to Mafia only benefits Mafia, while any boon to a civilian can benefit anyone, including Mafia. A Mafia with a kill, for example, is not a threat to its own team. A civilian killer, however, can decimate the civilians.

This option also gives Light a bounty of information. He will know whose vote is potentially worthless and whose vote is potentially worth more. The very act of making this list is informative. Counter by saying that L gets this information too all you want, but as far as I can tell, L doesn't kill and Light most likely does. Once again, the information will benefit Light more than it will L.

A person is accountable for who they voted for regardless? You must be new here.

Explain to me this, Epi:

How does this system offer anyone an out as you have described it? In what way is "Maybe my vote was worth more, maybe it was worthless" a legitimate way to excuse voting for someone? Regardless of the value of the vote, the fact remains that the vote was cast. And in most cases it was cast with the expectation that it counted, and with the intent to lynch the person voted for. Maybe I'm dense and I don't get it, but I'm inviting you to explain to me what it is I'm missing.

As for the bounty of information, and how it benefits L/Light, I'm again unsure if I understand your point. It is a *requirement* that L and Light put 50% of the current playerbase on their lists. So neither list will be 100% mafia or 100% civilian, which means Light will have just as difficult a time figuring out L's intentions as L will have with Light's. Without knowing who is on the other list, L and Light are on even footing. There is legwork required to figure out even the most vague of details in order to do what you've described. Legwork that civilians are just as capable of doing, although (no offense intended) perhaps not willing to do.

Perhaps you are confident in your ability to make others accountable for their voting record, but you are just one voice. I have seen Mafia get passes on their votes for the slightest of reasons time after time. When the second and third place vote getters are getting lynched, this will keep people from having to take responsibility for their votes- their man didn't get lynched. How are you going to make somebody accountable for a vote when you do not know the alignment of the person for whom they voted? It also gives Mafia the opportunity to keep the heat on the (civilian) first place vote getter the next Day. Another reason this setup is a trap.

[Epignosis]

From a gamemaker's perspective, I'll lay it out this way:

Civ 1
Civ 2
Civ 3
Civ 4
Civ 5
Civ 6
Civ 7
Civ 8
Civ 9
Civ 10
Civ 11
Civ 12

Mafia 1
Mafia 2
Kills each Night.

++++

Here is my game setup. There are no powers at all except that the Mafia has a Nightly kill. But here's my rule: Whatever power I assign to one role, a role on the opposite side gets it too. So I am going to give BTSC to Mafia 1 & 2, and therefore give BTSC to Civ 1 & 2.

Are you with me so far?

Now I am going to ask you: Do you want me to give Civ 1 a vote that is worth 3 if it means giving Mafia 1 also a vote worth 3?

If you are a civilian in this setup, your answer should be a resounding "No." Mafia 1 will get more mileage out of his vote than Civ 1 will get out of his, even though they both have BTSC with one person. The reason for this is simple: The Mafia has the kill, and therefore it is more likely that that Civ 1 will die (either through getting lynched or getting killed). Mafia 1 can only die by lynch.

This principle doesn't change just because it's Death Note. If you accept that Light can kill and L cannot, then there is no rational reason to empowering them both in the same way.

[DharmaHelper]

Thats not an answer to my question Epi...

Since when do you need to have two PhD's, a sixth level black belt, and laser vision to hold someone accountable for their vote? It's as simple as "You voted for this person for this reason, they got lynched, end of." Everyone who casts their vote does so with the expectation that it counts, and with the intent to lynch the person they voted for. The L/Light system does not remove that accountability at all in the way you described.

[juliets]

I'm leaning toward normal lynch because of the point made about L being one of our most astute players. If he/she is not we good get ourselves into trouble. I would really like to try a new mechanic but I don't think this is the one. DH is persuasive though so I'm going to hold out a little longer just in case he comes up with something that speaks to me to vote Light/L.

[Epignosis]

Thats not an answer to my question Epi...

Since when do you need to have two PhD's, a sixth level black belt, and laser vision to hold someone accountable for their vote? It's as simple as "You voted for this person for this reason, they got lynched, end of." Everyone who casts their vote does so with the expectation that it counts, and with the intent to lynch the person they voted for. The L/Light system does not remove that accountability at all in the way you described.

"They got lynched."

What if they didn't? How are you going to hold someone accountable when his vote didn't matter and the person for which he voted doesn't flip? I don't see why my point is difficult to understand.

[Turnip Head]

Epi makes some really good points. What if the wrong person got lynched every day, and each time flips civ? We wouldn't know whether L or Light was responsible. We'd actually have less information than we started with.

I *symbolically change my vote to Normal*

[DharmaHelper]

Thats not an answer to my question Epi...

Since when do you need to have two PhD's, a sixth level black belt, and laser vision to hold someone accountable for their vote? It's as simple as "You voted for this person for this reason, they got lynched, end of." Everyone who casts their vote does so with the expectation that it counts, and with the intent to lynch the person they voted for. The L/Light system does not remove that accountability at all in the way you described.

"They got lynched."

What if they didn't? How are you going to hold someone accountable when his vote didn't matter and the person for which he voted doesn't flip? I don't see why my point is difficult to understand.

Arguing with you is such an ordeal sometimes

Everyone is accountable for every vote they make, this is to me, common sense.

Whether you decide to vote for someone who isn't in the running, whether you decide to jump onto a bandwagon, or whether you vote for someone in order to tie/give that person the lead, (these are just examples), there are always ways someone can hold you accountable for your vote. Eventually, just about everyone is going to flip one way or the other. And that is information that we can use.

[Epignosis]

Thats not an answer to my question Epi...

Since when do you need to have two PhD's, a sixth level black belt, and laser vision to hold someone accountable for their vote? It's as simple as "You voted for this person for this reason, they got lynched, end of." Everyone who casts their vote does so with the expectation that it counts, and with the intent to lynch the person they voted for. The L/Light system does not remove that accountability at all in the way you described.

"They got lynched."

What if they didn't? How are you going to hold someone accountable when his vote didn't matter and the person for which he voted doesn't flip? I don't see why my point is difficult to understand.

Arguing with you is such an ordeal sometimes

Everyone is accountable for every vote they make, this is to me, common sense.

Whether you decide to vote for someone who isn't in the running, whether you decide to jump onto a bandwagon, or whether you vote for someone in order to tie/give that person the lead, (these are just examples), there are always ways someone can hold you accountable for your vote. Eventually, just about everyone is going to flip one way or the other. And that is information that we can use.

That's nice and all, but I'd like to see you hold someone responsible when your own vote doesn't count, and you likely won't know when that is.

There are six people so far who are cool with a killer having a say in whether or not their vote counts.

[DharmaHelper]

Thats not an answer to my question Epi...

Since when do you need to have two PhD's, a sixth level black belt, and laser vision to hold someone accountable for their vote? It's as simple as "You voted for this person for this reason, they got lynched, end of." Everyone who casts their vote does so with the expectation that it counts, and with the intent to lynch the person they voted for. The L/Light system does not remove that accountability at all in the way you described.

"They got lynched."

What if they didn't? How are you going to hold someone accountable when his vote didn't matter and the person for which he voted doesn't flip? I don't see why my point is difficult to understand.

Arguing with you is such an ordeal sometimes

Everyone is accountable for every vote they make, this is to me, common sense.

Whether you decide to vote for someone who isn't in the running, whether you decide to jump onto a bandwagon, or whether you vote for someone in order to tie/give that person the lead, (these are just examples), there are always ways someone can hold you accountable for your vote. Eventually, just about everyone is going to flip one way or the other. And that is information that we can use.

That's nice and all, but I'd like to see you hold someone responsible when your own vote doesn't count, and you likely won't know when that is.

There are six people so far who are cool with a killer having a say in whether or not their vote counts.

What you're saying is you want me to play the game. What you've just described is playing the game.

[DharmaHelper]

Gonna take a page out of Epi's book *Warning: Big post*

Using the system we have now of 27 Players, and list randomizer from Random.org

L's list will have to have 13 People on it, as will Light's. Lets assume for the sake of argument, that L and Light both put themselves on their respective lists. Since all we know for sure is that Light has BTSC with Ryuk, lets assume he puts Ryuk on his list. I will use Blue for L and Red For Light:

Right now:

L's List:
L

Light/Kira's List:
Light
Ryuk

Completely Randomizing L's list, this is the first (Blind) option I got, after having put every role in a radomizer in the order they are on the front page:

Sidoh (Independant)
Takahashi (Mafia 2)
Penber (Civvie)
Mogi (Civvie)
Watari (Civie)
Higuchi (Mafia 2)
Matsuda (Civvie)
Ide (Civvie)
Demegawa (Mafia 1)
Mido (Mafia 2)
Misora (Civvie)
Mikami (Mafia 1)
L(Civvie)

So, completely randomly, L's list Includes:
Civilians (Including L) 8
Mafia 1 (Light's Team) 2
Mafia 2 (Yotsuba) 3

I want to stress that this is completely randomly, and does not take into account anything other than cold numbers.

Light's List:
Sidoh (Indie)
Mido (Mafia 2)
Matsuda (Civvie)
Light (Mafia 1)
Mikami (Mafia 1)
Ryuk (Mafia 1)
Yagami (Civvie)
Misora (Civvie)
Ooi (Mafia 2)
Near (Civvie)
Shimura (Mafia 2)
Takahashi (Mafia 2)

Lights list includes:
Civilians - 4
Mafia 1 - 3
Mafia 2 - 3
Indies - 1


The following appear on both lists and therefore have a buffed vote:
Sidoh (Independent)
Mido (Mafia 2)
Matsuda (Civ)
Mikami (Mafia 1)
Misora (Civ)
Takahashi (Mafia 2)

The following appear on neither list and therefore do not have a vote:
Aizawa (Civ)
Ukita (Civ)
Mello (Civ)
Namikawa (Mafia 2)
Kida (Mafia 2)
Amane (Mafia 1)
Rem (Mafia 1)
Takada (Mafia 1)

Total of:
Civilians - 3
Mafia 1 - 3
Mafia 2 - 2

Which means the votes that would count on this theoretical day:
Sidoh (Independant) - Buffed
Takahashi (Mafia 2) - 5 Buffed
Penber (Civvie) - Normal
Mogi (Civvie) - Normal
Watari (Civie)- Normal
Higuchi (Mafia 2) - Normal
Matsuda (Civvie) - Buffed
Ide (Civvie) - Normal
Demegawa (Mafia 1) - Normal
Mido (Mafia 2) - Buffed
Misora (Civvie) - Buffed
Mikami (Mafia 1) - Buffed
L(Civvie) - Normal
Light (Mafia 1) - Normal
Ryuk (Mafia 1) - Normal
Yagami (Civvie) - Normal
Ooi (Mafia 2) - Normal
Near (Civvie) - Normal
Shimura (Mafia 2) - Normal


For a Grand total of:
Civilian Votes: 9 total (2 Buffed 7 Normal)
Mafia 1 Votes: 4 total (1 Buffed 3 Normal)
Mafia 2 Votes: 5 total (1 Buffed 4 Normal)
Indie Votes: 1 total (1 Buffed)

19 of 27 players have a vote that is at least Normal. Rougly 70% of the active players. Of those, 47% are civ, 21% are on Lights team, and 26% are on the Yotsuba team. Civvies have the majority vote AND the majority of buffs. This is not as advantageous for Light as it initially seems.

Admittedly this is ONE scenario, and I'm sure there are variables I did not account for, but as you can hopefully see its not as one-sided as you'd think.

[DharmaHelper]

EBWOP: *JUST* realized Mikami was the 13th pick on L's list, since L had to include himself, so take that into account. Sorry. :P

[DharmaHelper]

EBWOP: *JUST* realized Mikami was the 13th pick on L's list, since L had to include himself, so take that into account. Sorry. :P

Meaning Lights list should have 13 not 12 (and Penber was the 13th Light pick)

So again, not as mafia-heavy as you'd think.

[Long Con]

There's more to analyzing a lynch than see whose vote counted. Everyone's vote is only the final confirmation of the real meat of the game, which is the discussion for each lynch.

Maybe Epig is on the yellow team and is afraid his team is getting ripped off.

[bea]

Playing catch up now.

I just wanted to point out that this post of boo's elequently states everything I've been thinking re L/Light vote vs Normal vote.

Oh wow. It's Day 0 and we already have discussion ripe. And even an accusation of potential baddieness from Epig directed at Rico! This is going to be so exciting!

I'm in between the L/Light and Normal options. Currently leaning towards Normal because I think it would give us more information than the L/Light option would. Unless we could figure out a way to determine which people L and Light are picking. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

I'll think over my decision for now.

If we went with the L/Light option, We would have more to work with in regards to voting patterns and lynches. Closer votes would yield more information, as Made said. If someone ends up lynched who shouldn't be, that would provide us insight. Likewise, if the lynch proceeds as expected, there is something to be said about that.

I get that we might have more to work with with voting patterns and lynches. But wouldn't it technically take longer to gather said info since only L and Light are the two who know which votes do and don't count? Or am I thinking about this the wrong way?

Initially, only L and Light know who are on their individual lists. But after the lynches, I'm certain it could be deduced who was on one list, no lists, or both lists. Maybe not specifically which players, but it would be possible to say "someone in this group" or something. For example, if Someone in second place is lynched, its likely that that person had boosted voters, or the first place guy had negated voters, or both. It's a bit of homework, but its not impossible.

One more thing before I go: Vanilla lynching affords us one significant disadvantage that i can see, and that is that in the event of lynch fuckery, we will have basically no idea how or why the lynch went tits up. The L/Light mechanic gives us a known quanitity, from which deductions can be made and conclusions drawn.

Except if roles have lynch manipulation included in their secrets, it would be unreasonable to undo all of that with the effects of a D0 poll making those powers worthless. It seems to me you're assuming stuff like the +5 vote would somehow be negated in the L/Light choice, but I don't see why you think that's the case since including lynch manipulation in roles only to allow it to become potentially irrelevant doesn't seem like something MP would do. So the known quantity wouldn't be the case at all, it would just be something else to mess up with understanding lynch results.

I also think you're putting way to much trust in one civvie. If L ends up trusting bad information, going after the wrong people, trusting the wrong people, etc, going with L/Light would let Light run every lynch however they want. The whole advantage civvies have over baddies is numbers, and while that's less true in this game than a typical one, it is still the case assuming the two teams of 7 need each other dead to win. Letting L have the kind of power that option would give them would essentially undo the numerical advantage and instead rely entirely upon their judgement, and especially in the early game, that would likely lead to the death of civvies if there are even small errors in judgement on L's part. Then, unlike a normal game where civvies botching early lynches is normal and can be recovered from, once a few are out of, Light can pretty much run lynches however they like, especially if they can sus out who L is (which, imo, would be easier than normally figuring out a persons role, since they'll have the most accurate idea of both lists) and then spin that to their advantage by not killing L until as many other civvies are dead as possible.

All that to say, I have more trust in the masses than I do letting lynches be decided 50/50 by a baddie and a civvie, with the baddie imo holding the information advantage, especially in the early game.

I think it really needs to come down to people putting themselves in the shoes of the two roles. If I were L and the option won, I wouldn't be pleased with the responsibility of having my judgement become so important to the point of other civvies judgement and choices becoming irrelevant at my whim (not just civvies ofc, but it would be mostly blind luck to get the right people on my list or not). On the other hand, as Light, I would be more than happy to have that kind of early game power, since I can effectively use it to keep myself from getting lynched as long as I can get through D1 and get proper reads on the minds of people, and I really don't care who gets lynched as long as it isn't one of 7 out of 27 roles.

Here's to seeing what happens in the next two pages!

[Marmot]

I did not use the sarc button, so no, I was not speaking in sarcasm. That being said, I have no idea why I actually used that colour. I thought I remembered someone, in some game, using it to speak to the host, but I can't remember where (Film? Donner?) and it made me do the same right now.

I believe that was me in Film Director. But I did bold it and started my post with the host's name. I used this orange which wasn't quite the same as sarcastic orange, but I can understand the confusion.

[bea]

Also, somebody laugh at my Grover Cleveland joke. It is hilarious.

best presidential joke I've heard in ages.

[triceratopzeuhl]

For me, it boils down to this: The people supporting the L / Light choice are okay with their votes potentially not counting, are okay with the potentiality of Light safely distancing from Ryuk, are okay with Mafia increasing their voting strength, are okay with the lynches being a less instructive tool for finding Mafia, and are okay with targets being painted on the backs of civilians whose votes are worth more.

Don't make deals with the devil. Make people accountable for every vote cast. Don't give them the possible out, "Well, maybe my vote didn't count" or "Well, maybe my vote was worth more."

It bewilders me that, on a site where civilians lose 87% of the time in full games, supposed civilians would want give Mafia substantial control over the lynches.

Bingo. Agree 100%. The math checks out.

[triceratopzeuhl]

Did I miss Snowman and Russ explaining their votes? I don't see why either of those options would be good for civs

[Turnip Head]

Rico, where have you landed on this L/Light vs Normal debate?

[Ricochet]

Rico, where have you landed on this L/Light vs Normal debate?

Hardly keeping my brain cells from not popping, in terms of following said debate. Undecided, otherwise. I haven't heard from others if L's checking wouldn't put him in an advantage or at least create a balance of somd sort.

[Marmot]

Gonna take a page out of Epi's book *Warning: Big post*

Using the system we have now of 27 Players, and list randomizer from Random.org

L's list will have to have 13 People on it, as will Light's. Lets assume for the sake of argument, that L and Light both put themselves on their respective lists. Since all we know for sure is that Light has BTSC with Ryuk, lets assume he puts Ryuk on his list. I will use Blue for L and Red For Light:

Right now:

L's List:
L

Light/Kira's List:
Light
Ryuk

Completely Randomizing L's list, this is the first (Blind) option I got, after having put every role in a radomizer in the order they are on the front page:

Sidoh (Independant)
Takahashi (Mafia 2)
Penber (Civvie)
Mogi (Civvie)
Watari (Civie)
Higuchi (Mafia 2)
Matsuda (Civvie)
Ide (Civvie)
Demegawa (Mafia 1)
Mido (Mafia 2)
Misora (Civvie)
Mikami (Mafia 1)
L(Civvie)

So, completely randomly, L's list Includes:
Civilians (Including L) 8
Mafia 1 (Light's Team) 2
Mafia 2 (Yotsuba) 3

I want to stress that this is completely randomly, and does not take into account anything other than cold numbers.

Light's List:
Sidoh (Indie)
Mido (Mafia 2)
Matsuda (Civvie)
Light (Mafia 1)
Mikami (Mafia 1)
Ryuk (Mafia 1)
Yagami (Civvie)
Misora (Civvie)
Ooi (Mafia 2)
Near (Civvie)
Shimura (Mafia 2)
Takahashi (Mafia 2)

Lights list includes:
Civilians - 4
Mafia 1 - 3
Mafia 2 - 3
Indies - 1


The following appear on both lists and therefore have a buffed vote:
Sidoh (Independent)
Mido (Mafia 2)
Matsuda (Civ)
Mikami (Mafia 1)
Misora (Civ)
Takahashi (Mafia 2)

The following appear on neither list and therefore do not have a vote:
Aizawa (Civ)
Ukita (Civ)
Mello (Civ)
Namikawa (Mafia 2)
Kida (Mafia 2)
Amane (Mafia 1)
Rem (Mafia 1)
Takada (Mafia 1)

Total of:
Civilians - 3
Mafia 1 - 3
Mafia 2 - 2

Which means the votes that would count on this theoretical day:
Sidoh (Independant) - Buffed
Takahashi (Mafia 2) - 5 Buffed
Penber (Civvie) - Normal
Mogi (Civvie) - Normal
Watari (Civie)- Normal
Higuchi (Mafia 2) - Normal
Matsuda (Civvie) - Buffed
Ide (Civvie) - Normal
Demegawa (Mafia 1) - Normal
Mido (Mafia 2) - Buffed
Misora (Civvie) - Buffed
Mikami (Mafia 1) - Buffed
L(Civvie) - Normal
Light (Mafia 1) - Normal
Ryuk (Mafia 1) - Normal
Yagami (Civvie) - Normal
Ooi (Mafia 2) - Normal
Near (Civvie) - Normal
Shimura (Mafia 2) - Normal


For a Grand total of:
Civilian Votes: 9 total (2 Buffed 7 Normal)
Mafia 1 Votes: 4 total (1 Buffed 3 Normal)
Mafia 2 Votes: 5 total (1 Buffed 4 Normal)
Indie Votes: 1 total (1 Buffed)

19 of 27 players have a vote that is at least Normal. Rougly 70% of the active players. Of those, 47% are civ, 21% are on Lights team, and 26% are on the Yotsuba team. Civvies have the majority vote AND the majority of buffs. This is not as advantageous for Light as it initially seems.

Admittedly this is ONE scenario, and I'm sure there are variables I did not account for, but as you can hopefully see its not as one-sided as you'd think.

There is one major flaw. There are 12 detectives and 15 other (baddies/indy) players. No matter how you look at it, the odds are that there will be more baddies with buffed votes. Using one possible scenario out of 4.0234 E+14 different combinations is not good support for your case.

[DharmaHelper]

Alright, whatever then. However it plays out, it plays out. I'll reserve the right to saying I told you so.