[ENDGAME] Bullets Over Broadway Mafia

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I went pretty hard after LC, G-man, and Sig. Maybe my way of "going hard after" people is not the same as someone like sloonei or JJJ, but that's just a style difference, I'm not the type to make big long cases. It's good to have people like that around who do ISOs all the time so I can interpret them with my own perspective, but what I mean is that I strongly suspected those individuals and supported lynching them, and I did so by repeatedly saying I was suspicious of them in my contributions to keep them both in my mental list and in the thread discussion. I started saying LC was pinging me back on Day 1, like before anyone else suspected him. I was one of the first to agree with Sloonei's case on Sig, and kept bringing up his name when everyone else ignored it. I was less sure of Gman at first but became solidly convinced and ready to lynch him around the same time we were lynching LC. Again with BR I was skeptical at first but by the day she got lynched I was pretty suspicious of her. Admittedly I probably went harder against Bass than any of these baddies, and that was a mistaken suspicion, but we can't always be right. And I can't be sure that I'm right about you, but it looks like you're enjoying having some of the heat pushed off of you and onto me. Dare I say... opportunistic?

Hey neat! This is a great post, not because it reflects on you any certain way but because it can be fact-checked. Proceeding...

[Sloonei]

Who do you think has arbitrarily voted for you, Nutella, and why?

Well obviously splints and niju, as they have just voted for me. Both of them just kind of tagged along to my name being discussed and said something like "ehh I guess I'll go ahead and put my vote on nutella" without giving any actual reason. Niju in particular was like "oh I'll either vote for splints or nutella, hmm what the heck let's go with nutella" that is the definition of arbitrary right there.

@Splints that's because my reasons for you are pretty much those cases, and particularly your voting record. I think your behaviors toward LC and BR were potentially teammate-ish. I know you have defended at least regarding BR.

I feel like you are taking niju's vote out of context here. She was flippant about it, but not because she seemed to be thoughtless about it, but because she had to run. I came back from the dead and suggested that everyone put a vote on their top suspect. Niju did that, and then she left. You're right that she could have given more reasons to support her vote, but I do not have the same objection to it that you are mentioning here.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Sloonei, question for you... When you presented your case against sig earlier in the game, did the majority of players seem to support or reject your case?

[Sloonei]

Sloonei, question for you... When you presented your case against sig earlier in the game, did the majority of players seem to support or reject your case?

The case caught on pretty quickly and easily. I remember more support than rejection of it. I would have to look back to recall specific cases.
I am curious as to why you are asking this question.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Sloonei, question for you... When you presented your case against sig earlier in the game, did the majority of players seem to support or reject your case?

The case caught on pretty quickly and easily. I remember more support than rejection of it. I would have to look back to recall specific cases.
I am curious as to why you are asking this question.

I'm fact-checking the defense nutella just gave for herself. One of her claims was that she supported your sig case when most others didn't -- your claim here would be contrary to that. I'll post the full report shortly.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Fact-checking nutella's defensive comments. Note that I am not going to analyze these posts like I would in an ISO. My only objective here is to determine if what nutella claims about her posts in this game holds up against thorough digging. I'm going to focus on the earliest stages of the game to prevent this post from becoming too massive (I will likely fail in that endeavor).

nutella: If I do not cover any posts that you think are of significance, please highlight them for us and I will render judgment accordingly.

I went pretty hard after LC, G-man, and Sig. Maybe my way of "going hard after" people is not the same as someone like sloonei or JJJ, but that's just a style difference, I'm not the type to make big long cases. It's good to have people like that around who do ISOs all the time so I can interpret them with my own perspective, but what I mean is that I strongly suspected those individuals and supported lynching them, and I did so by repeatedly saying I was suspicious of them in my contributions to keep them both in my mental list and in the thread discussion.

Spoiler: show

Let's look at some nutella posts related to these players...

Days 0 and 1

Epi, I disagree with your criticisms. True, "interesting" is kind of a vacuous term but I and others use it all the time. And I also say things like "I don't know what to think about [whatever interaction has been going on in the thread]" because I feel like such interactions merit acknowledgment/I feel like I have to comment on them regardless of my alignment.

Defensive of LC.

I changed my vote to Cobalt. Sig, I encourage you to do the same if tiebreaking was your only motivation for your vote (though that's pretty lame if it is)

Mildly critical but not necessarily accusatory of sig's Day 1 voting methods (while promoting a Cobalt vote instead of SVS or LC)

...I just stated some.
For the most part though it is too early for me to form reads unless something crazy happens. As for LC and Epi, idk I think they're their usual zany selves, could be any alignment.

Vague filler about LC.

Wow now I might reconsider. I kinda feel bad for SVS since her stuff with Epi got blown out of proportion, and though I don't want to discount the possibility that she is a caught baddie panicking, that's not really what it seems like coming from her, and most of all the self vote really throws me off. That doesn't seem like something SVS would do as a baddie, she wouldn't go down that easily. So I think it's more likely she's just a lone civ who's unfortunately been a bit turned off from the game.

I think I will switch my vote to either Cobalt or LC, (a) to possibly save SVS and (b) because I am coming around to suspect both of them a bit more than I thought I would. LC just doesn't seem like himself, and could be erring on the side of caution if he is bad. Cobalt, well I don't know him at all but he's starting to give me an odd vibe and I really don't like his SVS vote at all one bit.

linki: Sig/Sloonei, different games/hosts have different procedures for ties. I wouldn't assume it would be a no lynch, I think it is more common to have a method of tiebreaking.

Suspicious of LC, vague reason given.

I changed my vote to Cobalt. Sig, I encourage you to do the same if tiebreaking was your only motivation for your vote (though that's pretty lame if it is)

Voted Cobalt instead of LC, 5th of 5 to make that vote.

Huh, wasn't expecting an indie result. That's kinda too bad, as it probably was indeed a cool role, but on the other hand that means it may have had nefarious abilities/win conditions. So a somewhat neutral RIP to SVS the role and a sorry-to-see-you-go to SVS the player.

Huh, didn't realize LC dropped in like that. I wish he had posted along with his driveby vote but he did say he would be very busy and as Golden so elegantly put it,

When someone knows they are under the gun, they will try and get time to make sure they are around in the last couple of minutes and use their vote for self-defence - even if its in the toilet on the phone.

So I don't really blame LC for popping in but I am definitely looking forward to hearing a lot more from him when he gets back. Something feels off. On the flip side I am crooking an eyebrow at Cobalt's extreme eagerness to go after LC before even hearing anything from him. That's some conviction there. Looking forward to seeing how Day 2 will play out.

After voting, nutella lightly supports LC for his non-presence and drive-by vote at EOD1.

Night 1

I'm getting a weird vibe from LC and I can't really put my finger on it. It's like he doesn't seem LCish to me. But maybe that's because I haven't really played with him in a while (not counting Pilate which was decidedly not his usual style) and I may be projecting misremembered conceptions of his style, or maybe it's because he's been busy IRL, idk there's just been something nagging at the back of my head about all his posts so far that just feels not quite right. Obviously he's particularly on the defensive right now so maybe I am reading too much into how he's acting under pressure.

Nutella casts more soft suspicion on LC, this time in the vaguest language I've ever seen. See the bits I've underlined to understand what I mean. She waffles on him thoroughly in this post.

Day 2

My thoughts on Epi getting NKed: Usually when a nightkill target during the first couple nights of the game is someone who has been strongly pushing suspicion against someone else, I tend to think it is the baddies' attempt to frame the suspected party. (Can get complicated and WIFOMy though, like if the suspected party really is on the offending team and thinks "nobody will think I actually targeted the person who pushed for my lynch, they'll think it was a frameup" -- that's possible, and maybe this frameup would be too easy) but I'm inclined to think it could be an attempt to frame LC. Which just makes me all the more suspicious of Cobalt for today.

nutella suggests the Epignosis kill was most likely an attempt to frame LC. This is distinctly defensive.

Not sure. Depending on how today turns out I might still want to look at LC, and possibly Tiny. I'm also interested in the suspicion on Sig and am keeping an eye on him. I am looking forward to hearing more from BR, and others who have seemed particularly blendy like Bass and DF.

"Keeping her eye on" sig.

Sorry for posting so many times in a row, and for being so rambly, but my thoughts are going a mile a minute. But I guess I could see it either way. Epi was really gunning hard for Cobalt too by the end of the day, so maybe it was more of a Cobalt frame. Maybe LC and Cobalt are trying to frame each other. Or even better, they're both bad, maybe they're teammates after all and Cobalt's trying to pull a daredevil distancing strategy.

Here she asserts new suspicion of LC, suggesting it may have been a mutual frame attempt or elaborate bus job between Cobalt and LC.

I'm willing to lay off the Cobalt/LC confusion because I really don't know what to think and it seems worthwhile to consider other suspects. I'm somewhat ambivalent about BR, and she seemed confident that Bass is bad so I'm inclined to examine him more. Sig is also on my list for sure.

Linki golden beat me to the point about protection

Simultaneously "lays off" LC while stating sig is "on her list" as a suspect of some kind.

Looked at sig's and bass's posts and I am placing my vote on Bass for now because I agree with BR's read on this post (that it looks like a baddie "talking out of his ass")

Who are your suspects today Bass?

My top suspect is still cobalt. When I was doing my six page catch up I got a bad vibe from LC when he switched his vote after saying he wasnt going to be around. Today LC is starting to read more normal to me, so I have him in a gray area. The problem i'm having is trying to remember what mafia LC looks like. I know he was Indy in RR but I think the only game I have seen him be bad in was my first mafia game ever Supernatural Mafia on Rev. I got a slight ping from DF when he made the comment about me not saying anything because I think this is the most I have ever posted in a game this early. I felt like he is skipping over stuff and I tend to think baddies skim and skip stuff because they arent really worried about catching any mafia.

There are a lot of people who I would like to hear more from when they get caught up.

Despite her suspicion of sig, nutella was willing to vote with her because of her and BR's points about Bass.

If only anyone actually read my posts I did in fact discuss my PM when they were being discussed at first, and that it involved protection and a role check and yes it does seem to be the same as Niju's.

I do suspect sig, am going to more carefully re-read sloonei's case to confirm that I agree and then I might switch my vote (doesn't look like Bass is that likely of a candidate at this point)

Reasserts suspicion of sig, references Sloonei's case. See one of the other points from nutella's defense in this post, it is relevant there.

Later than Day 2

I think I'm going to vote for LC. Partially because a vote for G-man at this point would make it closer to a tie, partially because the case that LC is Sig's teammate is looking pretty strong. I really want G-man gone too and really think he is bad especially after seeing his behavior today, but today I want to lynch LC. I'm pretty damn convinced he's bad, and learning his alignment will help us figure more stuff out.

Votes for LC while also expressing pretty strong suspicion of G-Man.

Thanks for the well-wishes, guys. I'm going to watch some OITNB.

This season is really good! Almost caught up, watching with a friend. (Jesus christ episode 10 was so intense though. )


People I am most suspicious of/willing to lynch, roughly in order from most to least:
G-Man
Bass
TinyBubbles
Cobalt
TH

Lists G-Man as her top suspect.

~~~

As far as I can see, nutella never gave any kind of read on TGG before he was replaced.

Conclusion...

nutella suggested she "went hard" (in her own way) against all of LC, sig, and G-Man. Based on the material I've covered, I don't think this is a totally unreasonable claim. This review wasn't a homerun for her though. I think she genuinely went hard after G-Man, went quite soft after sig, and waffled with LC. Mixed bag.

~~~

I started saying LC was pinging me back on Day 1, like before anyone else suspected him.

This is demonstrably false and nutella should explain why she even claimed it. Multiple people were suspicious of LC before she expressed any suspicion of him herself. She even defended him when others criticized him ("interesting" controversy -- see above spoiler).

~~~

I was one of the first to agree with Sloonei's case on Sig, and kept bringing up his name when everyone else ignored it.

It is at least true that nutella was supportive of Sloonei's case. One of the posts I highlighted above is evidence of this. I've marked it in orange text for reference. She wasn't highly vocal about it, but she did support it. However, she also asserts that "everyone else ignored sig", which might not be totally accurate. Sloonei just stated that his case against sig seemed to catch on quickly and earn the support of the majority -- this would be contrary to nutella's assertion.

Spoiler: show

Sloonei, question for you... When you presented your case against sig earlier in the game, did the majority of players seem to support or reject your case?

The case caught on pretty quickly and easily. I remember more support than rejection of it. I would have to look back to recall specific cases.
I am curious as to why you are asking this question.

~~~

I was less sure of Gman at first but became solidly convinced and ready to lynch him around the same time we were lynching LC.

I'm actually not sure this is true, because the first thing nutella said about G-Man that was directly related to how she read him was quite accusatory. I've referenced it the same above in pink text. I don't see this period of being "less sure of G-Man" is in her post history. This is strange because that would seem to be a positive thing, but that she recalled it this way is still striking. Talk about that nutella.

~~~

Again with BR I was skeptical at first but by the day she got lynched I was pretty suspicious of her.

~~~

Half of this seems to be true (the former half). She wasn't outwardly trusting of BR, but she did take up with her in her case against Bass. I'm not sure I see examples of nutella being "pretty suspicious of her" though. This is the best I can find prior to BR's lynch:

Spoiler: show

RIP Sloonei

Interested in the niju case. Also fairly willing to go along with a BR or Cobalt lynch, but I'm still kinda hesitant about them both.

"Fairly willing" and "kinda hesitant" don't inspire a lot of confidence. This also came one day after she'd listed BR in the green sector of her rainbow.

~~~

Overall, I think nutella's defense falls short of reality in a few places. Please talk about it, nutella.

[Marmot]

I'm finding myself getting a little confused about the night kills -- particularly who perpetrated each. A lot of people are taking it as gospel that specifically Team Wildhorn or specifically Team Webber attempted to kill [Player X]. I only see one phase in which a mafia role is explicitly employed to describe a kill attempt though (Bonnie and Clyde on Night 5). So how do we know when each mafia team is given the night kill?

This is not a statement of suspicion, I seriously don't know. I think people received some behind the scenes information at some point that I never saw or something.

No, I looked up the baddie team members, and the musicals all corresponded. (I know nothing about musicals myself). Some details about the musicals.

Phantom of the Opera features a huge chandelier swinging and crashing, onto the stage I believe.
Starlight Express is performed entirely on roller skates.
There was a scene in Bonnie & Clyde where someone fixes a car.

Context clues.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm finding myself getting a little confused about the night kills -- particularly who perpetrated each. A lot of people are taking it as gospel that specifically Team Wildhorn or specifically Team Webber attempted to kill [Player X]. I only see one phase in which a mafia role is explicitly employed to describe a kill attempt though (Bonnie and Clyde on Night 5). So how do we know when each mafia team is given the night kill?

This is not a statement of suspicion, I seriously don't know. I think people received some behind the scenes information at some point that I never saw or something.

No, I looked up the baddie team members, and the musicals all corresponded. (I know nothing about musicals myself). Some details about the musicals.

Phantom of the Opera features a huge chandelier swinging and crashing, onto the stage I believe.
Starlight Express is performed entirely on roller skates.
There was a scene in Bonnie & Clyde where someone fixes a car.

Context clues.

You're probably right. Dom may have just been using relevant flavor without necessarily relating it to specific night killers, but I am comfortable working with this theory. What do you make of Bonnie and Clyde getting a kill out of turn?

[Marmot]

I'm looking into the inactives now, primarily Neverwhere and Devin. They seemed to be lynch options supported by Golden and Epignosis respectively, but substantive reasons weren't given. So I'm going to see if there are any.

Weren't you disappointed that we lynched an inactive yesterday?

[Marmot]

I'm finding myself getting a little confused about the night kills -- particularly who perpetrated each. A lot of people are taking it as gospel that specifically Team Wildhorn or specifically Team Webber attempted to kill [Player X]. I only see one phase in which a mafia role is explicitly employed to describe a kill attempt though (Bonnie and Clyde on Night 5). So how do we know when each mafia team is given the night kill?

This is not a statement of suspicion, I seriously don't know. I think people received some behind the scenes information at some point that I never saw or something.

No, I looked up the baddie team members, and the musicals all corresponded. (I know nothing about musicals myself). Some details about the musicals.

Phantom of the Opera features a huge chandelier swinging and crashing, onto the stage I believe.
Starlight Express is performed entirely on roller skates.
There was a scene in Bonnie & Clyde where someone fixes a car.

Context clues.

You're probably right. Dom may have just been using relevant flavor without necessarily relating it to specific night killers, but I am comfortable working with this theory. What do you make of Bonnie and Clyde getting a kill out of turn?

I am still confused by it, and can't think of an explanation other than another player borrowing his/her power.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I don't know if I have ever been genuinely suspicious of this many players before. I have one true town read, and that's a guy that just got resurrected. Otherwise any "town reads" I claim to have would just be bold GTHs and not truly confident reads.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm looking into the inactives now, primarily Neverwhere and Devin. They seemed to be lynch options supported by Golden and Epignosis respectively, but substantive reasons weren't given. So I'm going to see if there are any.

Weren't you disappointed that we lynched an inactive yesterday?

No. I was disappointed you lynched the only player I had called a town read (prior to Sloonei's return).

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I am still confused by it, and can't think of an explanation other than another player borrowing his/her power.

Do you think this discrepancy should be reason enough to have doubts about what we think we know regarding which team attempted to kill certain players?

[Marmot]

I am still confused by it, and can't think of an explanation other than another player borrowing his/her power.

Do you think this discrepancy should be reason enough to have doubts about what we think we know regarding which team attempted to kill certain players?

I can see why you would suggest it, but I don't think that's the case.

Early in the game, Dom sent out some secret abilites for various roles. Because of this, I have reason to believe the the even nights belong to Team Wildhorn. It has already been speculated about, and is the reason we also discovered the corruption ability that Frank Wildhorn had.

The gunshot that was executed last night is more ambiguous. It could be Bonnie & Clyde again (being a western American theme), but the flavor is different.

[fingersplints]

I'm finding myself getting a little confused about the night kills -- particularly who perpetrated each. A lot of people are taking it as gospel that specifically Team Wildhorn or specifically Team Webber attempted to kill [Player X]. I only see one phase in which a mafia role is explicitly employed to describe a kill attempt though (Bonnie and Clyde on Night 5). So how do we know when each mafia team is given the night kill?

This is not a statement of suspicion, I seriously don't know. I think people received some behind the scenes information at some point that I never saw or something.

No, I looked up the baddie team members, and the musicals all corresponded. (I know nothing about musicals myself). Some details about the musicals.

Phantom of the Opera features a huge chandelier swinging and crashing, onto the stage I believe.
Starlight Express is performed entirely on roller skates.
There was a scene in Bonnie & Clyde where someone fixes a car.

Context clues.

This is correct. The phantom knocks it down. I haven't seen the others you mention.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Plus I don't think I am by any means in the clear.

Why's that?

[Marmot]

I am still confused by it, and can't think of an explanation other than another player borrowing his/her power.

Do you think this discrepancy should be reason enough to have doubts about what we think we know regarding which team attempted to kill certain players?

I can see why you would suggest it, but I don't think that's the case.

Early in the game, Dom sent out some secret abilites for various roles. Because of this, I have reason to believe the the even nights belong to Team Wildhorn. It has already been speculated about, and is the reason we also discovered the corruption ability that Frank Wildhorn had.

The gunshot that was executed last night is more ambiguous. It could be Bonnie & Clyde again (being a western American theme), but the flavor is different.

So here is where Scotty first introduces the majority of the information regarding Frank Wildhorn's role into the thread. Hopefully this offers you some more support.

Link

[fingersplints]

Plus I don't think I am by any means in the clear.

Why's that?

Because I am not a confirmed civvie. The way nutella made it sound with her "heat pushed off you" was if everyone suddenly trusted me, and I think that is far from the case. I still feel very much in danger of being lynched. Do you think I am in the clear?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Do you think I am in the clear?

Nope!

[Sloonei]

Sorry dudes, I've been busier than expected today. I hope to put up some big posts and get fully back in the swing of things at some point later tonight.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Reminding myself that Devin the Omniscient exists.

Spoiler: show

Epignosis: Civvie (because he is asking questions like a good little civvie)
MP: Mafia (Because when the fuck are you not?)
Sig: Indie (No read whatsoever yet)

Don't expect a serious answer until we're well into day one

There's not much to talk about with this guy, so I'm going to try to make the best of the slim pickings. Here's some arbitrary Day 0 reads. The latter two appear meaningless to me, because he spent a pile of introductory posts joking around with MP and the sig read is literally nothing. The Epignosis read might be a little meaningful though. Why should asking questions be good enough for an immediate civilian read in the game's earliest stage?

Spoiler: show

Noob mistake Gumshoe!

Noob mistake Gumshoe!

Well, jeez, you (my mafia brother) should have told me (your mafia brother) not to do it when I (your mafia brother) told you (my mafia brother) that I (your mafia brother) was going to post that.

Did I mention that we're mafia brothers?

This isn't in green because it's all true

We mafia brothers gotta stick together! Thanks for outing me, btw. knucklehead

WIFOM pot pie.

Spoiler: show

Thanks for putting up with my extended interrogation, Devin. This certainly won't be the end, but I wanted to take advantage of you being here at the same time as myself, early on, to try and pick your brain.

You won't be getting my vote on Day 1 unless something drastically changes. Neither will Epi.

I wouldn't expect anything less, Buddy!
I do need to get back to work, though

I will leave you with this for now: What make you of Cobalt's confidence coming into a new site? I will just say that I don't have a problem with confidence in general...

Welcome to you, too, Cobalt!!

The question about Cobalt seems quite pointless given his own response to it.

Spoiler: show

My pm mentioned Sondheim, Brown, Schwartz, and Hammerstein together. It also repeated "lyricist" and "3/4" over and over. I think it may be Schwartz's role and I don't think he's a threat to us but I obviously can't be certain.

Lyricist could apply to any of those names. And 3/4 is a time signature indicative of a waltz. Mine was something about "revived" and "most overrated". I hope that's not a shot at The King and I.

I do think it was odd that Hedge brought up bandwagons for no particular reason. I think it could be to preemptively establish herself as looking better if one player does take a lot of votes, while also not really committing to anything herself.

Epi is reading as standard throw-everything-at-the-wall Epi to me, and LC hasn't done anything to ping me either. I don't agree with Epi that LC was using inflammatory language or trying to avoid offering his thoughts. He's done quite a lot of offering that I can see.

SVS is also on my radar for how strongly she reacted to the "interesting" thing. I doubt anyone will get lynched because they used an empty term like "interesting" or such, so her reaction towards Epi seemed misplaced.

Because I'm so far behind (Sorry guys. Still super busy at work. Not looking for a pass, though ) I'm going to put my parroting skills to use. I agree with several things DF says here.
First, my pm had similar repeating words. No specific names were mentioned, however, Broadway and music-theatre-canon were repeated several times. Also, "role-check" was mentioned once and "revived" was mentioned several times. Just noticed that "was own memory" is said twice, too.

Hedgey could be a good place to look today. But I'll scan through the rest of the posts to see if she has responded to this yet.

For Epi I would replace "standard throw-everthing-at-the-wall" with "standard hunting" Epi. As he pointed out, he's only gone after a very few people for (I believe) valid reasons that deserve questioning. I feel okay about him so far.

SVS's reaction to the "interesting" thing reminded me of several of MP's reactions to similar view points. He was not a baddie in those situations. Yes they have somewhat different play styles. But I will give her the botd for now. Doesn't mean I'm letting her completely off the hook for now. No one is at this point in the game.

An added note from me: I was just LC's teammate in the Flash mafia and watched him play a stellar manipulation game. I can definitely see where Epi and others are coming from with their arguments here. If LC survives today, I will keeping my eye on him for the rest of his in-game life (even if I die first). No offense, Buddy

A couple things in this post ping me (Day 1 caliber pings). The first one is quite minor, but I think it bugs me because I think a mafia player is more likely to be concerned about being perceived as "looking for a pass" than a town player. The second one bears the appearance of typical mafia filler for being Captain Obvious dialogue.

~~~

There's no way to feel much of anything about this player. There are pings, but this late in the game they feel quite tiny. So he's a total coin flip, which means he's either mafia or an unfair handicap that benefits mafia (if town).

Shit sandwich.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I just noticed Bass is still in the tally?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Based on the work I've done so far, my own gut, and where we stand right now, here's a rainbow:

Sloonei
Epignosis 2.0
fingersplints
nijuukyugou
Golden
Metalmarsh89
Gumshoe
Devin the Omniscient
Spacedaisy
S~V~S
nutella
Neverwhere
DFaraday

[Marmot]

I voted Bass as a placeholder.

[Sloonei]

I voted Bass as a placeholder.

Why? Surely you must have actual suspects right now.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Sloonei, I've reviewed your old case against ninja and I do disagree with some of your perspectives. I don't think you're suspicious for having them, but I'm not sure you're being entirely fair in your treatment of her content. It looks to me like you might be reading her through the "find the mafia alignment in this player" lens rather than the "find out what alignment this player is" lens. I'll reference a few specifics, quoting only your own text for the sake of brevity.

Spoiler: show

Her response to MP here reads a little bit like backtracking/covering her tracks. She admits to misrepresenting (whether intentionally or not) the truth in regards to her earlier post about the truce discussion and also provides an excuse for herself to get off to a slow start. However, she then starts to provide a few reads. However however, as has been noted a bunch of times throughout this game, with two scum teams, the baddies should be doing about as much scum hunting as the townies in this game, so her observations that Epi 1.0 seemed to be "genuinely baddie hunting" and that "LC's response looks too defensive" could just as likely have been made by a baddie, presumably a non-Wildhorn one. The three names she mentions here (Epi, SVS, Long Con) were the three that everyone had an opinion of on Day 1, so it would have been nice to see Ninja dig a little deeper for reads here.

The matter of the "truce" on Day 0 strikes me as meaningless -- from everyone involved. I don't really care about Devin, MP/Epi, or ninja's perspective of that, because it is such a tiny thing. Otherwise, you seem to be leading yourself in the direction of a mafia read with the underlined content. It is indeed likely that members of both mafia teams have engaged in some mafia hunting, but that doesn't mean this should be raised as a point against ninja. Otherwise it must be raised against everyone who has shown any effort to mafia hunt. I don't see the logic.

The point you make about her choices of people to discuss being unoriginal is a better one. It's also one that could be applied to a ton of people from the Day 0/1/2 era when the Cobalt/LC controversy seemed to be 90% of the thread.

Spoiler: show

I can't help but now read this post as her leaving the door open on all three lynch possibilities, creating the freedom for herself to vote any one of the three lynch candidates from that day. The bigger middle paragraph where she runs through her reasoning about all three feels a bit contrived and doesn't seem to fit as well with her previous statement that she's excited to have "decent suspicion" of all three and is "okay with voting any of them". Immediately after saying this, she expresses that she's not actually okay with voting Cobalt, waffles a bit on SVS, and ultimately settles on Long Con because she "likes Epi's case". I feel like a town Ninja would not have been so quick to make a decision here, even with changeable votes. Her later comments about doing it for the "interesting reactions" also now comes back to me as not particularly fitting with the tone of this post, as it is suggested here that she at least feigned careful reasoning before voting, and was not just doing it to provoke others.

This is the point you made that inspired me to compile this post. I think there are a few problems with your reasoning. You started with "I can't help but now read this post as her leaving the door open on all three lynch possibilities", which is definitely true since she said exactly that in the very post you're talking about. You're "reading" her post to mean something, as if it's a veiled implication, when it was actually something she stated explicitly. Moreover, if her stated strategy of "generating reactions" for her LC vote is to be viewed with suspicion, I find myself wondering why? If she is Team Wildhorn, then she is bussing the crap out of her team mate on Day 1. If she is Team Webber, then why should she even need to employ this "generate reactions" method when all three lynch candidates are not on her team? She could just pick one regardless of how and when and be comfortable.

Spoiler: show

I especially disagree with her when she says sig's reaction to her vote gave many people their "first real ping" about him. I know I first became suspicious of sig because of the way he handled his own vote that day. I did not even become wary of his response to niju's vote until after he had been lynched and I looked back through his posts, and the only reason it stood out to me was because of how strange he was acting towards niju in particular. I think it's also worth noting that she makes absolutely no mention of that sig ping in her big huge follow up post. She does spend a lot of time telling us why Cobalt is bad, though.

It must be said that ninja didn't claim "many" people's initial ping on sig was related to sig's take on ninja's LC vote. ninja actually asserted that this sig reaction was her own first ping "and others in their analyses". This doesn't imply majority, it only implies someone. If it can be verified that at least one other player referenced sig's response to ninja's LC vote as a suspicious thing, then I'm satisfied with that.

However, the point you make about ninja failing to mention this ping she had about sig in her large catch-up compilation is sound. ninja should answer to that now, even if she has already done so. I'd like to hear a fresh defense.

Spoiler: show

Lots of suspects, but still none named sig. She does offer support of Golden's G-man/Gamerguy theory, but she also remarks that it's "a bit of a stretch" and that she wants to give G-man a pass for a day. Perhaps setting herself up to begin bussing a teammate later on, but not right away. Because we can lynch Cobalt first (I'm aware I've just done a 180 from my previous stance on her "give G-man BOTD" remark).

Here she finally mentions sig, after Scotty and I had both posted our cases against him and I specifically asked for people to respond to it a couple of times. As I noted in my previous post about sig/Ninja interactions, I find it a bit inconsistent that she claims to have both "forgotten about" sig and been "weirded out" by him. I now find it even more inconsistent, considering her later post about "getting her first ping" on sig after his reaction to her Day 1 vote.

I think these are the most suspicious moments in ninja's post history, so I agree with your concerns. I'll look back to see how she has addressed this problem.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I voted Bass as a placeholder.

Why? Surely you must have actual suspects right now.

It is a pretty big wasted opportunity with changeable votes. Who do you want dead, Marsh?

[Marmot]

I voted Bass as a placeholder.

Why? Surely you must have actual suspects right now.

I've been gone since yesterday morning.

And it's so I can see the poll since votes are changeable and people are voting.

Linki: What's a wasted opportunity?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Linki: What's a wasted opportunity?

To not use your vote strategically. It isn't vacant of value right now even if it might not be your final choice.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Look at me, capitalizing sentences (and fragments) like a real boy.

[Marmot]

Linki: What's a wasted opportunity?

To not use your vote strategically. It isn't vacant of value right now even if it might not be your final choice.

I did it so I could see the poll every time I flipped pages without having to press "View Results" every time. Bass is dead (right?), so that's a convenient option.

Don't you think this is a bit pedantic?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Don't you think this is a bit pedantic?

Yes.

But any accusation is worth hurling at least to see what happens.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Marina Diamandis is awesome.

I promise to sing "Bubblegum Bitch" for y'all if the pace of this game picks up soon.

I made a pledge and must live up to it.

Always willing to make a total ass of myself for a productive mafia game.

[nutella]

JJJ - I was just going by memory so I'm sorry I didn't get the details quite right. I guess it was Night 1 when I first said that LC sounded fishy to me, and I waffled on him a bit. My comment about being uncertain about G-man was alluding to his annoying image-posting and then excessive-randomizer-posting, which I initially found to just be annoying and not indicative of his being bad, but I gradually became more suspicious of him as he refused to defend himself or participate in any meaningful way. As for BR, I was hesitant toward her for a while, largely because I agreed with her regarding Bass, but by the day she was lynched she looked more and more bad to me.

And regarding Sloonei -- I remember him at some point having to re-introduce the possibility of lynching sig back into the thread and asking if people would be on board with it, and I replied that I was on board with it. I may have misinterpreted the context of that, I'll look for the post I was thinking of

I hope this answers your questions -- bottom line is my memory for detail in mafia games is pretty abysmal (kind of weird since my memory for details in general is otherwise amazing but for some reason mafia is full of blind spots for me)

[nutella]

Here is the post from Sloonei I was referring to. At the time he made this post, everyone was talking about Cobalt, LC, Bubbles, TH, it was a very mishmash day and in this post he definitely sounds concerned that Sig had fallen out of discussion and he is asking if anyone else was interested in pursuing him, and I replied that I was.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

This seems to be ninja's primary defensive post in the face of Sloonei's suspicion, broken up so I can address individual points:

Spoiler: show

I don't want to quote Sloonei's entire case again because it was a real pain in the ass to format and re-format, but I will respond to points he brought up about me. For your convenience, his case can be re-read here for those of you who keep claiming you're going to "look up the case on Blooper again."

Reading through this case, I'm not even sure what team Sloonei is trying to peg me on, because neither team makes any sense. He said my interactions with G-Man and sig "do not paint me in a favorable light." So if he's making the claim that I'm on Team Webber, then he's also asserting that I threw not one, but TWO teammates under the bus without even trying to defend them. I don't count giving G-Man, a player who just subbed in, one day's grace as a defense. Even the host gave that to him. I also don't count not mentioning sig except later in an unfavorable way as a defense. And I sure as shit don't count VOTING FOR TWO PEOPLE ON MY "SUPPOSED TEAM" as a good way to play mafia. It doesn't matter if they were later votes. It would still be two supposed teammates. That's poor, lazy, and cruel team playing, and I'm not any one of those things.

I get the impression that Sloonei was more inclined to suspect you as a Team Webber member than a Team Wildhorn member. He can correct me if not. I have two points to make about your Team Webber-based self-defenses.

1.) They're unfair. It isn't remotely uncommon for a mafia player to vote for two team mates, and when it happens it is neither poor, lazy, or cruel play. It is perfectly valid strategy, and it often works. So for you to insinuate that it is an absurdity to be faced with these accusations is frankly incorrect.

2.) Your candor and language move me more than your logic. Your comments read to me like a frustrated townie who feels like the case against her is bunk (even if it is not bunk) who is lashing out. Mafia players are obviously capable of mimicking this manner of frustration, so it's up to everyone else to make a judgment call. And I think you read like a townie here.

Spoiler: show

If he's trying to peg me on Team Wilhorn, that's also nonsensical. I made a crazy tie-up vote Day 1 for LC a) to amuse myself and b) because I (rightly) believed LC was bad. I would never throw a teammate under the bus on Day 1, especially with a vote that close. That's idiotic. AND I VOTED FOR HIM AGAIN because my mind did not change about him.

I agree that it would be harder to peg you as a member of Team Wildhorn. That doesn't mean it's "nonsensical" though. In Economics on Day 1, Birdwithteeth placed a very bold vote for his mafia team mate Bass that could have legitimately gotten him lynched. It didn't. If someone suspects you've done something similar with your Day 1 LC vote, they have every right to say so. That person is then charged with the task of delivering a believable case for why he/she feels that way, but again -- it's never "nonsensical". That is unreasonable of you.

And given that I have illustrated a decently parallel example that worked brilliantly for the mafia, you definitely can't justify calling the notion "idiotic". Just like I said before: anti-town players have done these things and they have been effective in countless mafia games throughout the history of the Internet.

Spoiler: show

Sloonei himself admits to making this case with major tunnel vision turned on, and it looks like the logic sensor was turned off. One of his other major points is that I didn't mention enough suspicion of sig at the right time, and that sig's weird posts about me gave him pause. I've already addressed the first point. As for the second point, I will say it again as I said to Sloonei: this is precisely the kind of paranoid suspicion that sig was going for. He attempted to paint me in a bad light by lying about me (he said I switched up a vote when I haven't switched a vote all game, even since he was lynched), then buddy up as he was going down (and then buddy back down again) so I could look bad.

Regarding the part I highlighted: please show me. You don't have to restate old defenses, but if you could refer me back to the point where you addressed this that'd be super. Otherwise, most of the points Sloonei makes about sig's commentary and then your responses must all be seen as speculative to anyone who is not either sig or you. However, you do provide an important example of sig attempting to smear you (by accusing you of some kind of bad vote switch that didn't happen).

Sloonei: what is your response to that specific point of defense by ninja?

Spoiler: show

Listen to logic, people. If you've ever played on a team with me before, you know I'm not a lazy player (especially since I have a crapload of free time right now!) and I avoid throwing teammates under the bus as much as possible, at the cost of my own thread reputation. This case is nonsensical, and while Sloonei made it with good intentions for the civs, it's wrong. That's all I hope I have to say on that. I'm gonna have a look at people who are really, suddenly eager to get on this case without actually getting on it. I'll return later with thoughts.

The case wasn't nonsensical. I am currently inclined to believe that your defenses are genuine, but that doesn't mean there's no case. Your own commentary about how you typically behave or would behave as a mafia member are honestly irrelevant, because there's no way anyone else can just take you at face value there. That's pure WIFOM.

I read you as more town than mafia, but not so securely as you seem to think is warranted.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

*smacks self with yardstick for "neither/or"

[JaggedJimmyJay]

JJJ - I was just going by memory so I'm sorry I didn't get the details quite right. I guess it was Night 1 when I first said that LC sounded fishy to me, and I waffled on him a bit. My comment about being uncertain about G-man was alluding to his annoying image-posting and then excessive-randomizer-posting, which I initially found to just be annoying and not indicative of his being bad, but I gradually became more suspicious of him as he refused to defend himself or participate in any meaningful way. As for BR, I was hesitant toward her for a while, largely because I agreed with her regarding Bass, but by the day she was lynched she looked more and more bad to me.

And regarding Sloonei -- I remember him at some point having to re-introduce the possibility of lynching sig back into the thread and asking if people would be on board with it, and I replied that I was on board with it. I may have misinterpreted the context of that, I'll look for the post I was thinking of

I hope this answers your questions -- bottom line is my memory for detail in mafia games is pretty abysmal (kind of weird since my memory for details in general is otherwise amazing but for some reason mafia is full of blind spots for me)

You understand then that the accuracy of your stated defenses is rather crucial to how valid they are perceived to be? I am definitely willing to believe you don't always remember every tiny detail of a large mafia game thread, but it'd seem inappropriate for you to claim a defense from that memory if you don't even think you can trust it. Shouldn't you be checking yourself before taking credit for things that frankly weren't solely your doing?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Here is the post from Sloonei I was referring to. At the time he made this post, everyone was talking about Cobalt, LC, Bubbles, TH, it was a very mishmash day and in this post he definitely sounds concerned that Sig had fallen out of discussion and he is asking if anyone else was interested in pursuing him, and I replied that I was.

This is mostly valid. I'd assert that Sloonei was actually concerned that everything was falling out of discussion in an increasingly stagnant thread, but the difference might not be hugely significant.

[Marmot]

JJJ - Neverwhere has been a baddie in most if not all the games she played. I know she fooled everyone as mafia her first game. (Myself and Golden included) and we were teammates in Omereta mafia. I'd have to look and see what other games she has played

She didn't fool everyone.

[Sloonei]

Been waiting a half hour for my laptop to start up so i can make big posts.

[Marmot]

Do it!

I'm big-posted out right now.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I have a physiological need for big Sloonei posts.

[Marmot]

Jay! Call the last two members of each team GTH. Go!

(Possible NK'd members included).

[Marmot]

Aw dang, where'd you go?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Jay! Call the last two members of each team GTH. Go!

(Possible NK'd members included).

You do the same thing.

Wildhorn:
DFaraday
Neverwhere

Webber:
nutella
Devin

[Sloonei]

Technical difficulties persist, hang tight

Does anyone have any questions I can answer in smaller posts while i just have my phone? It is not helping that the red sox are currently in a rain delay. I am completely at a loss for things to do.

[Marmot]

Wildhorn:
Spacedaisy
JaggedJimmyJay

Webber:
Gumshoe
nutella

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Technical difficulties persist, hang tight

Does anyone have any questions I can answer in smaller posts while i just have my phone? It is not helping that the red sox are currently in a rain delay. I am completely at a loss for things to do.

do the same thing Marsh and i just did. GTH on the remaining mafia players for each team.

[Marmot]

Jay! Call the last two members of each team GTH. Go!

(Possible NK'd members included).

You do the same thing.

Wildhorn:
DFaraday
Neverwhere

Webber:
nutella
Devin

Who do you suppose fingersplints is?

I would be afeared if there were that many inactives out there in mafia.