Recruitment Mafia IV: Dawn of the Clans (End Game)

[bea]

Also - I'm totally cute and fun to have around and I've been away forever and everyone is super happy I'm playing for sure!!

My fear is that this is totally true, and thus...

also also - I'm still unrecruited fwiw.

This is less likely. :P

Please note evolution baddie mastermind is not listed in my awesomeness. Also while totes wifom, I have not been participating in contests. Too busy.

[bea]

@ svs - I didn't mean to imply that I was looking for something specific from you about golden. I know you feel badly for being wrong about him. I was just curious as to what catches your eye now because I value your imput. Sorry if I worded that weird before.

[unfurl]

Roxy and unfurl, I think much of the reason we're consistently having different opinions is largely in part due to approaching the game with very different mindsets, so I'll keep that in mind going forward, and try not to judge either of you too harshly merely for disagreeing.

fair enough

Rico, I agree that sideline Azura + voting others to vote for Golden are compatible. Which players come to mind with "wanting him gone from a distance" and playing on the sidelines? For me, I'd say unfurl, TinyBubbles, and aapje.

What do all of you players think?

Seriously MP,wow,
Golden was among the players, that was ok with how Im playing, he did thought I was just being me
why on earth I would want him gone? ask yourself that
you are clearly think Im some mastefull evil mind, or you want others to think that

Why is Golden's opinion infallible? He was not a civilian. He was neutral. While, I am not happy with the result of his lynch-- his word on you doesn't necessarily point to you being civilian. This doesn't make a lick of sense.
Who are you looking at, unfurl? I'm interested.

MP was sort of saying that I wanted Golden dead from the distance, and I didnt, that was my point
I adressed Roxy before that MP and BWT are among people I dont trust, but Im not going to be tunnel vision in that part
I would like to hear more from reywas, as to why he changed his vote from himself to golden? what made him make that move, he never explained it?
I also what to see aapje getting more involve as he promised to do so

I think good points about Sorsha has been brought up, I think Sorsha may know who killed Epig, and she did knew it was not Golden, I think that could had been slip up with the framed part
As a matter of fact Im votting for Sorsha

Unfurl, while I wouldn't go so far as to say I trust you, I don't feel as strongly about you, based primarily on the fact people who have played more with you than I have are dismissing my suspicions. But frankly the biggest concern to me is that your attitude in this game seems so vastly different to me than I recall from the few games I have played with you before. I would never have characterized you as snarky or dismissive that I can recall before this. You have always eked very nice. I understand language barrier at times and so forth, but I have just felt like you had a different attitude this game.it is the big thing keeping you on my list right now. But you are not in danger of getting a vote for me immediately, I want to try to keep my mind open.

Like I said befofe it you thought I was snarky, that was not my intention, sometimes I have a dark sense of humour and sometimes it comes the wrong way

[Marmot]

I see a big damn hero lurking.

[Ricochet]

Aaaand time!

...oh my





That took like four...five...s- know what, let's just call it "afternoon".

I said I'll look into how things unfolded with Golden, case, hunters, voters, however undauting (boy is that an understatement) and so the monster above has been created. It will probably blind me a bit for this EoD in considering other leads or storylines, except if it'll align with players I'll deem suspicious out of this analysis. I'll try to catch up later with real time events and cases, too, but right now I almost feel the need to nap. This has also done nothing but to prove to me that I can't keep up with such activity without screwing up my RL schedule big time. Starting tomorrow, during the next three weeks or so, I will no longer choose these sort of big stats-making or reads over my PhD presentation and other duties.

Anyway, get your "didn't read lol" memes ready, cause here is

The story of Golden - A walkthrough

[This probably has to be downloaded and read in Excel properly, because I can't find a way to unscrew it in Drive visualisation]

It contains interactions between Golden and other players (related to the case on Golden) or stances, thoughts, reads, ideas by other players about Golden, the case on him, the entire situation, etc. If important details are still missing from this, apologies (from page 40 or so onwards, I resorted to just search "Golden" in the posts instead of re-reading the whole content).

Cells highlighted in orange-y are the posts that I deemed suspicious, pingey or questionable. I cannot fully revisit each right now to explain my thought process, because I highlighted them as I went through compiling this list, but I will pick some angles, suspicions out of this entire endeavour anyway so most of them should be addressed a bit later. I'm posting it now for others to (maybe) have something to work with, if they feel inclined to.

Also, the Hosts should look into the link to all player's posts on the front page, I think it got broken and only links to the front page itself. I'd also be a good idea to link to MM's updated hyperlinks, since Synonym joined.

[Ricochet]

[This probably has to be downloaded and read in Excel properly, because I can't find a way to unscrew it in Drive visualisation]

Either that or open it in full on Drive, if it allows you to.

[S~V~S]

I skimmed didn't read fully, it did not require a dowload.

The problem there is that the orange posts are taken out of context. My position on Golden clearly and rapidly changed after he made ONE post. So yeah, I changed my mind. But it has a different aspect when taken out of context. That post was cold to me in a way I don't deem Golden to be. I was wrong, and will work harder to take tone out of it, but with the way I think, that is not always easy for me.

If you like feel free to relink the hyperlinks every page, I think that the hosts are fairly busy and may or may not have time to get around to that. I never use those myself anyhow, it is just as easy to find one post of a players and click "In Topic" under the avatar as it is to open a new tab and go to the first page

I find that Excel/Drive docs are hard to discuss in thread. Next time, break it up into smaller posts that can be posted in thread. As a matter of fact, I may just do that, I have a few minutes before I have to be out of here.

[S~V~S]

Never mind it's full of links and I don't have the time to cut & paste all of those links.

[Scotty]

Aaaand time!

...oh my





That took like four...five...s- know what, let's just call it "afternoon".

I said I'll look into how things unfolded with Golden, case, hunters, voters, however undauting (boy is that an understatement) and so the monster above has been created. It will probably blind me a bit for this EoD in considering other leads or storylines, except if it'll align with players I'll deem suspicious out of this analysis. I'll try to catch up later with real time events and cases, too, but right now I almost feel the need to nap. This has also done nothing but to prove to me that I can't keep up with such activity without screwing up my RL schedule big time. Starting tomorrow, during the next three weeks or so, I will no longer choose these sort of big stats-making or reads over my PhD presentation and other duties.

Anyway, get your "didn't read lol" memes ready, cause here is

The story of Golden - A walkthrough

[This probably has to be downloaded and read in Excel properly, because I can't find a way to unscrew it in Drive visualisation]

It contains interactions between Golden and other players (related to the case on Golden) or stances, thoughts, reads, ideas by other players about Golden, the case on him, the entire situation, etc. If important details are still missing from this, apologies (from page 40 or so onwards, I resorted to just search "Golden" in the posts instead of re-reading the whole content).

Cells highlighted in orange-y are the posts that I deemed suspicious, pingey or questionable. I cannot fully revisit each right now to explain my thought process, because I highlighted them as I went through compiling this list, but I will pick some angles, suspicions out of this entire endeavour anyway so most of them should be addressed a bit later. I'm posting it now for others to (maybe) have something to work with, if they feel inclined to.

Also, the Hosts should look into the link to all player's posts on the front page, I think it got broken and only links to the front page itself. I'd also be a good idea to link to MM's updated hyperlinks, since Synonym joined.

Lol this almost sounds about as appetizing as reading the phone book.

But I will do it, because holy hell man, that must've taken you hours..

I think my best bet is to pick a player and cherry pick interactions with that particular player. Thank you for doing this, Rico!

Now go take a nap.

[S~V~S]

Yeah, it's impressive, just not sure how to interact with it.

[Ricochet]

I have no reasonable way to upload this kind of list into the thread, I will only break it into my own thoughts on it later on.

Did the hyperlinks in the document actually lead to the specific posts or the top of the page in which the post reside? Cause it's doing the latter for me, and if that's the case for everyone, fark, it's almost useless! I pray it's just my Excel being screwy (although the hyperlinks appear full and correct, so wtf), because it's being doing shit like this for the past weeks.

SVS, I assume you mean only the one post by you that I highlighted in orange is taken out of context or do you feel all of them are taken out of context? Anyway, these are not interpretations of the actual context, but a list of the events and main ideas, plus there happens to be hyperlinks providing context for certain important specific posts. As for the big picture (instead of specific posts), I remind that I highlighted in real time, so until I got to revisiting your D2 suspicions, I still had the feel about that post being contradictory with your hunt on Golden, at that early stage. That is not to say I do not understand the evolution of your suspicions.

I believe this post would be more representative of your change of view, although even here you state you are not unfamiliar or disapproving of the tactic itself that Golden used (in fact, you relate to it by having used it before, on the same player, for WIFOM purposes), yet it's the "bragging" part that got you so disconcerted.

MM already provided an update list of links to player's posts, I have it saved and anyone can do the same (or browse posts in a different way), but it's not working anymore on the front page, that was my point. Your "In Topic" choice is slightly more impractical (and slower) for me personally, but that's about it.

[Ricochet]

Anyway, these are not interpretations of the actual context, but a list of the events and main ideas

Actually in fairness I should fine tune this statement a bit. They are meant to list the events and main ideas those players have brought in those posts, but the orange highlighted ones will sometimes include (either in brackets or in form of exclamation) some idea was to why I found them odd. I sometimes felt the need the add that, in order to keep track.

SVS's orange post is, however, not taken out of the context of that post, only compared to her case evolution.

[birdwithteeth11]

I'm finally all caught up. Unfortunately, I do not have the time to make a lengthy post of any kind. I will say that I agree with a lot of the thoughts on Sorsha, as a potential player who could have tried to put some pressure on Golden while remaining out of the spotlight. So my vote will go to her today. I promise I will be more involved for the next day phase.

Votes Sorsha

[Scotty]

Thanks for responding, Sorsha! I responded to a few of your responses.

I would like you to elaborate on your read of me. And please read my responses to dr wilgy from earlier today so that I don't have to repeat myself.

Here. I know you didn't ask me, but Scotty's up to the task!

I'm trying to make it easier to read so we all don't go insane.

Sorcha: Not many posts. She had a funeral to attend at the start, so wasn't around as much for discussion. I'm sorry to hear about the funeral

Day 1 was a wash for her.

Day 2. Her first post was the following:

Spoiler: show

Sorry to see Epi and Typhoony gone so soon.

I was sporadically keeping up with reading the thread on my drive home last night but I’m just going to comment on things as I come across them in my re-reading tonight.

If Golden was baiting a baddie team to take Epi out what would make the baddie team actually think taking Epi out is a good idea?

Other than trying to set Golden up to look bad and lead to a Golden lynch today? Does that even work anymore? There is the whole WIFOM argument to go along with that situation. Leaving Epi alive to duke it out with Golden seems like it would be a better idea….. a distraction in the thread is usually good for the bad guys to hide behind.

I know most of us have been playing a while and have been bad before. I don’t recall ever reading the thread (as mafia) and thinking that the NK decision would be made by someone in the thread baiting the team to a kill.

Her first in the day (and Day 2 was a BEAST to read thru mind you) and her first impression is to talk about Golden possibly being set up- does it work any more, why would mafia do that, they should've left Epi alive to duke it out, that sounds so weird that mafia would follow someone's lead to bait a kill...

This whole post is fishy. It took like 13 pages and she posts about that fishy Epi kill...no real opinion on Golden either.

I don’t understand why this post is so fishy to you. I’m trying to make sense of why a baddie team would follow the “suggestion” of a player who is not on their team from the thread. I had a lot of questions regarding the killing of Epi that I was just trying to make sense of in that post.
As I said, you missed a bulk of the day and the first thing you bring up is the framing of Golden. That in and of itself is not exactly suspicious, but to focus mainly on that instead of the other interactions through the beast of Day 2 is.

Spoiler: show

I've been reading through players posts, reviewing the suspicions that players have of each other and am finding it hard to choose someone to vote for. I either don't agree with the suspicion (if I can actually find that one was given) or I feel the player is neutral (which most of us still are).

linki: I'm not comfortable following the Speaker at this point either.

She becomes overwhelmed since there are so many people to vote for that she is paralyzed, and forgot to buy the Paralyze Heal from the Pokemart!
This is eerily similar to her Day 1, in which she didn't know who to vote for, and instead of putting her vote on a random person, chose not to vote at all.
She ultimately votes for TinyBubbles for doing a driveby vote. So she values someone having a reason to vote for someone else, which matches her anxiety in Day 1.

What do you mean by the last sentence in this post here. “So she values someone etc…..” I mean that when you are looking at a candidate to lynch, your patterns (I'm not going to pretend to know you as a player outside of this game) indicate that you would rather vote for someone that didn't explain themselves. Your Day 1 we learned that you want to have a reason for voting someone- which you didn't have due to time constraints. Day 2 you were still catching up, but still wanted to bring attention to the Golden set-up. It's like being appointed the new CEO of a business you know nothing about, coming in to fix things by standing in the middle of the room and going, 'We need more productivity! Let's work together and fix it to drive sales!" Then you head to your office, lock the door, close the blinds, and eat that box of Bavarian cream-filled donuts you worked hard today for.

Well anyway, nothing came from that prodding, and you end up voting TinyBubbles for the reason of not having a reason.
All you are doing here is paraphrasing what I am doing. I don’t really see your point here. It was day two, tons of posts and I was out of town and finding it hard to keep up. Even NOT being out of town this game would be hard to keep up with. Sure, I get that. I was in the same boat Day 2. And I know my idea of input and participation is slightly different than yours, but going back to your point- tons of info was posted, and you rehashed a theory that had already been brought up less than 10 minutes after Day 2. You chose to bring that conversation back to the forefront because (looking from my multi-colored lens) you had no hang-ups with Golden and would not look suspicious as the killer.

She then posts that she had to catch up after Bass was lynched, and then we didn't hear from her again til the afternoon of the first half of day 3...and this is where things start looking fishier than a whale vagina:

Spoiler: show

I see that golden is heading out and might not be back much but I have a question or two. Anyone else can weigh in on the answer as well. I have been away from mafia for a while and don't know/can't remember all the player dynamics.

First of all I'm of the mind that golden is not on the team that killed epi night one. I know golden still claims responsibility like that team is going to do his bidding for him but I'd think their motive was more to frame him. Anyone in particular come to mind as one who would do that?

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

Golden the point I was trying to get was if someone were setting you up who do you think it is?

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

I'm upto date and I'm not voting for Golden. Sorsha, what has you thinking someone hounding him is framing him?

If it is one of the players hounding him, who are they? DH, SVS and rey?

Well my thought was that they killed epi to frame golden to set up a golden lynch the next day, once that didn't happen they have had to step up their accusations against him to get the lynch train going to golden.

I don't agree with the conclusions svs has come to on golden. I have to re read dh and Rey a bit. I was just throwing it out there to see what others are thinking on it.

I should add that I'm not 100% caught up... It's just too much to read so I'm sorry if this stuff was covered already.

Now answer mine.

If it worked once, It could work again. You've already shown you have no problem basically asking the people with the kills to do your dirty work, why would I, how could I in good faith, assume you wouldn't be above doing it twice?

Did you not think you could have lynched Epi? Or were you afraid that having lynched him would have put a nail in your coffin?

OK, so you were scared of me on the offchance that I would pull the same ploy a second time and on the offchance it would work twice (note, even after I had stated I don't think I would possibly be able to replicate it) and on the offchance that if I tried it again I would choose you as the target...

What has 'in good faith' got to do with it?

What I see in your answer to my question is exactly the same as what I thought of your suspicion all along.... you are not particularly scared of me killing you, you just see me, generically, as a threat.

And no, I did not think I could lynch epi (at least not before he lynched me). As I said, when epi has done what he did in this game in the past, it has not worked out well for me. Everything I did to epi was specifically about epi, and the impact he has on games, and I don't think anyone who claims they legitimately think I might do the same to them without any reason to think it is being genuine.

Oh, btw, you didn't actually directly answer my question. I thought I should point that out, since it seemed you had a problem with that when I did it. You've actually been avoiding it all afternoon.

Were you legitimately scared that if I am not on the team that killed epi, I could say 'kill DH for me', and they will?

Of course I am

It'd be like putting my name on the top of a rainbow list. Let me tell you why your Epi plan was good:

It was good because it got rid of someone you needed to get rid of in order to make it farther into the game. Now let me tell you why your Epi move was the worst possible thing you could have done:

You came up with a solution to a temporary problem that created a problem much bigger, and more difficult to solve. Namely, now you are unrecruitable. No one in their right mind would want you on their team, because of the big fuckin' red X on your forehead right now. You also presented at least one opportunity for the killer(s) to avoid accountability for their kill. Accountability is the most dangerous thing in mafia, and you basically gave whoever killed Epi a free pass.

So either you are a baddie and cooked up the whole "baited" kill as a smokescreen, or you are fine with not being recruited. Which of those do you think is more likely?

The bolded paragraph of DHs near the end of this quote explains why it would be a bad move for golden to have killed epi. It just doesn't make sense to me. I know this is goldens first recruitment game but it isn't his first mafia game.

She backs up Golden and says that she doesn't think he killed Epi. Defending him. Check.
She then attempts to plant the idea that 'whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it'. Wow, leading the witness much? By prepositioning with the idea that Golden was set up, running it over again in her first post of the day every day, sounds like a pride thing a baddie would do. "I successfully framed a dude, I'm so cool, look guys, someone framed him, whoooooo could it beeeee? "
The second to last quote up there not only defends Golden when and if he flips non-baddie, but implicates reading into the ones hounding him- SVS, rey and DH. Very clever, if she killed Epi, because she can start making the Golden detractors look bad in the process.

I am posting questions trying to get opinions from other players. I am in no way definitive in my thoughts about if Golden was or wasn’t set up, I was trying to make sense of things that didn’t make sense to me. I don’t think it makes sense for someone to try to set Golden up because keeping Epi alive would have been a good distraction for the baddies to hide behind but someone setting him up makes more sense to me than him(or his team) killing Epi himself.
I didn’t name names about who was hounding him in the thread because, off the top of my head at that particular moment I couldn’t recall who it was. I usually play on my phone and jumping back and forth gets difficult…. and I don’t take many (if ANY) notes during mafia. Anyone with a working left eye could know that you were talking about his biggest detractors. More importantly, my point isn't that you didn't name their names, it's that you pointed at them in the first place.
You and I have never played a mafia game together that I can recall and you are really off in your read of me and your interpretation of my posts. Mayhaps. And I apologize profusely if I am, but it just seems to me after actually following your leads, and attempting to think of possible motives for killing Epi as a frame, I would more likely see someone that didn't have a strong opinion on Golden as the one that did him in. Because on the off-chance that Epi was a baddie on Team B, what does baddie team A have to lose? Naw, I'm reading you as attempting to steer the thread back to Golden at the end of Day 2 and beginning of Day 3.

Later in the second half of day 3:

Spoiler: show

Wilgy clads himself in armor. The sun shines off his helmet blinding the crowd as he grabs his sword and shield. A cloud covers the sun and the reflection dissipates. The crowd can now see that Wilgy's sword and shield are both Golden*

Bring it on. Sorsha, I've had abit to drink tonight. Why don't you join me and tell me who framed Roger Rabit (Golden)?

Vote registered for Sorsha

Thats a good question Wilgy.. was it a frame or was it the result of a redirect (Ahriman), target switch (Master of Ancient Arts), switching three roles powers (Chaos Dancer) or a repel of kill to the Magnetarch?

Looks like Scotty has made a nice post about who may have framed Golden.

Do you think Golden was framed Wigly? And why did you vote for me? Also, what are your thoughts on the day ending early and no night?

I'm reminded that DrWilgy had already seen something weird about Sorcha here, and might be thinking the same thing I am right now. She even throws in my thoughts on SVS and reywaS as fuel to the fire. How very nice.

….Again, just asking more questions. I guess I’m just getting stuck on something that I’m not going to get an answer on and just need to let go. It seems like some players were so adamant that Golden killed Epi that other options were just not being considered. That’s why I was looking into the set up or role powers having an influence.

Day 4. Golden was killed. lo and behold he was NOT baddie!

Spoiler: show

*Wilgy walks into the room of chattering. His cloths are dirty and he smells of alcohol, but there is confidence in his step. He approaches everyone and points a finger to Sorsha.*

First of all I'm of the mind that golden is not on the team that killed epi night one. I know golden still claims responsibility like that team is going to do his bidding for him but I'd think their motive was more to frame him. Anyone in particular come to mind as one who would do that?

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

Sorsha, the reason why I asked you a question so soon after you posted was due to your tone. You state, confidently, that Golden is being framed. Here's the kicker though, you didn't save him. You could've taken your vote off of tiny to save a person being framed, but you didnt. Why?

Also, what gave you the confidence in your tone? I don't believe you answered that question when I asked earlier?

What puzzle piece am I missing in Golden's case? And should I place my bets on you? Or against you?

I didn't save him because I was in no way confident that he was framed, however my tone sounded to you.

I'm still neutral/ unrecruited and unlike some playing have no problem with baddie hunting. That's why I was asking for ideas on who might have framed golden. I got answers that I pretty much expected: anyone could have been behind it really. Just because I expected that to be the answer doesn't mean I wouldn't ask the question though.

This entire time you've campaigning for finding Golden's framer, now you're backpedaling and saying you were in "no way confident" there was even a framer now that Golden was lynched and someone is on your ass?

You do not understand my posts in the way I meant them. Like I said before, we haven’t played together before so maybe you aren’t familiar with my play style. I’ll take responsibility for it not being clear, sometimes I just assume that people know what I mean.
-------------

This here is a player that wants to create no waves, and doesn't want to be caught red handed just in case she commits to the wrong decision. This can either be very noobish or very baddie-like. I don't know Sorcha's history as a player. Is she usually like this? Either way I'm reading her right now as bad bad bad.

Not that I expect anyone to come to my defense but I have played with many of these players before and if anyone ever says that I am a highly active/high poster then they are a liar! It usually does take me a while to get “into” a game…. I’m not lying low intentionally. And I am not bad either!That's fair, and I have to apologize that I know these longer posts can come off as very blunt making the other person go, "Uhh...he pretty much just flung paint at me, how do I react to that." And I'll say you're handling it pretty well- you seem like a competent player, which is awesome
I just can't shake that feeling that you're bad.

[Draconus]

Sorsha, I was actually going to pull some quotes, but it seems Scotty has beaten me to the punch!

In short, I suspect you heavily for your lack of activity (though I understand the RL reasons for early on), and then mostly your behavior surrounding Golden. It's very WIFOMy, soft defending him, and perfect for someone wanting to take advantage of Golden but still sitting in the sidelines.

Yup. I was planning to change my vote to Sorsha and just did. Scotty has some compelling arguments in his mega post. But it was a Wilgy post that made me want to vote for Sorsha to begin with. Let me see if I can find it.

Linki: mega post number 2.

[Sorsha]

I think if you read my posts from a different pov you would get a different opinion, just my opinion. You are looking at my posts trying to find me guilty so that's what you see.

[Scotty]

I think if you read my posts from a different pov you would get a different opinion, just my opinion. You are looking at my posts trying to find me guilty so that's what you see.

Perhaps, thoughit's going to be hard for me to switch it off at this point.

Let's go back to the basics- who do you find most suspicious right now, Sorsha?

[Scotty]

Still want to hear from:
TinyBubbles, who never responded to her heat in the past 24 hours but did have time to vote Boomslang for no reason.
DrWilgy for voting SVS. Wanna hear your input on Tiny and Sorsha, since you originally brought her up.
DisgruntledPorcupine, who has been lurking pretty consistently I can see, but isn't bothering to check in at all.
My dad, who forgot to pick me up from baseball practice in 4th grade and never came back.
MM, so I can pet his fur and figure out what's going on inside his head.
DH, who said he was going to do ISOs...

[Draconus]

Thats a good question Wilgy.. was it a frame or was it the result of a redirect (Ahriman), target switch (Master of Ancient Arts), switching three roles powers (Chaos Dancer) or a repel of kill to the Magnetarch?

Do you think Golden was framed Wigly? And why did you vote for me? Also, what are your thoughts on the day ending early and no night?

Also, good dance around my question here, I feel like you slipped though. If Epig's death was simply a frame, I think you would be pursuing those who were going after him. I also think you wouldn't have voted Tiny when the votes were so stacked on Golden. You rose the question of if it could be a redirect. The only peole that can answer that question are the people that cast the kill and the person who caused the redirect. Which one are you Sorsha?

This is the one. I found Sorsha's response to Wilgy's unquoted question very odd, and totally agree with his response to her.

Sorry for the lack of original thought here. I have somewhere to be very soon.

[Sorsha]

I think if you read my posts from a different pov you would get a different opinion, just my opinion. You are looking at my posts trying to find me guilty so that's what you see.

Perhaps, thoughit's going to be hard for me to switch it off at this point.

Let's go back to the basics- who do you find most suspicious right now, Sorsha?

Most of my mafia time has been taken up with defending myself the past day so I haven't had a lot of time. I was going to stick to my bubbles vote if nothing else came up. If I'd had time I would have gone over some players posts and cases that others have made and decide. I'm never much of a case builder on players, I typically read what others have dug up and either agree or disagree with it.

[Tranq]

Meh. I'm 20-ish pages behind... and i should probably vote within the next hour or risk missing the deadline.

Who should i vote for?

[Tranq]

Looking at the players that already have a couple of votes, a quick summary on Boomslang, Sorsha & TinyBubbles would be appreciated

[Ricochet]

Now go take a nap.

I went biking instead.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I've reread all of Sorsha's posts. It's been quite a while since I've played with her but she sounds like I remember her. Although I can see her being on the team that killed Epi.

I will probably not be around until the end of the day and there is a good chance that Monday is the next time I will check in again. Sorry for that!

What about Sorsha's play makes you specifically declare that you could see her being on the team that killed Epi?

[Ricochet]

Looks like we('ll) have company.

[Long Con]

Looks like we('ll) have company.

Lock up your daughters!

Just a note: BR and I are both working tonight, probably home anywhere from half an hour to an hour after the lynch poll ends. Your patience is like refreshing droplets of waterfall mist to us.

[Marmot]

MM, so I can pet his fur and figure out what's going on inside his head.

I've got a few more errands to run today, but I am working on my catchup. Don't fret!

[Tranq]

My RGB list:

Sorsha
TinyBubbles
Boomslang

Red being the case i find the most interesting, green being the case i felt 'meh' about, and blue being the case that didn't really feel like a case. Why is Boomslang considered a main suspect, exactly?

*votes Sorsha*

[LoRab]

I do not WANT to lynch neutrals. I never WANTED to lynch neutrals. But I would rather lynch a neutral than a civ. And when I voted for Golden, I did not suspect anyone of being on a baddie team. I changed my vote to the person I suspected of being bad after that. I am starting to feel like a broken record--but I feel like my words being twisted. And since I think one of you is bad, then it feels like you're intentionally manipulating the way you frame my thoughts.

Possibly. I see llama as one of the most likely recruitees in the game right now, and the nonchalance of "oh yeah, and LoRab" troubles me. I'll look into him more.

And one thing I would recommend to everyone is this: don't tell other people how to play the game. I don't think any of us are newbies and a lot of us have been playing in this extended community for a really long time. We don't need to be told how you think we should play.

You realize that you just violated your own rule to tell me that?

My intention is never to be condescending or tell people how they must play the game. I made a recommendation because I thought it was important, and I absolutely do not apologize for it. I'll do it again if I see fit. That's how I play the game.

I was thinking TH as the one I suspect--I have no read on llama.

I'm going to spend most of my Saturday outside. I'll be back to play Mafia later tonight.

LoRab, I changed my mind. I will apologize -- not for my style but for taking such offense. You suggested you were a bit cranky; so am I and I shouldn't show it in my play like I did. No hard feelings I hope?

We are good. And I apologize for responding with snark.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Hey y'all, I'm compiling a big post in which I defend Sorsha! Are you ready?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Why is Boomslang considered a main suspect, exactly?

[DrWilgy]

Hey y'all, I'm compiling a big post in which I defend Sorsha! Are you ready?

I like this!!

[DharmaHelper]

Switching my vote to TinyBubbles.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

The rush of anti-Sorsha votes has been rather abrupt, and I think someone needs to explore her posts through a non-baddie lens at least as a devil's advocate. I'll do it.

Spoiler: show

Just my two cents so far....I've been able to review the golden/epi "thing" and find it pretty hard to believe that a recruiter would come into the thread and ask for recruiting help/advice. (That's probably less than two cents worth but it's all I've had time for this morning)

Like others I feel like day one is usually a crap shoot...... and I think I have a case of day one voting anxiety

Off to read some more.

I think the highlighted portion is a logical inference. I also like the dejected honesty of this post -- she was playing loosely enough to grant that her ability to contribute was hampered, and that she didn't have much to say. She spoke on the topic that nearly everyone else was speaking on.

Spoiler: show

I see my name being mentioned for a vote and that's fine, I know I haven't been posting a lot but I was hoping I'd get the botd since I'm out of state for a funeral. After tomorrow I should be able to participate more.

I really don't feel comfortable voting today. If you guys want I can throw out a random but I'm really not informed as well as I'd like to be to make an informed vote. I don't think it would be fair for me to be a tie breaker either.

Raise your hand if you'd feel uncomfortable single-handedly breaking a tied tally late in a day phase after having had little time to really keep up with the game? *raises hand*

Granted I probably would still do it, but I don't fault Sorsha for hesitating here.

Spoiler: show

Sorry to see Epi and Typhoony gone so soon.

I was sporadically keeping up with reading the thread on my drive home last night but I’m just going to comment on things as I come across them in my re-reading tonight.

If Golden was baiting a baddie team to take Epi out what would make the baddie team actually think taking Epi out is a good idea?

Other than trying to set Golden up to look bad and lead to a Golden lynch today? Does that even work anymore? There is the whole WIFOM argument to go along with that situation. Leaving Epi alive to duke it out with Golden seems like it would be a better idea….. a distraction in the thread is usually good for the bad guys to hide behind.

I know most of us have been playing a while and have been bad before. I don’t recall ever reading the thread (as mafia) and thinking that the NK decision would be made by someone in the thread baiting the team to a kill.

This is the post that seems to be giving people trouble, so I'll focus on it more.

Yellow = on RYM this would be called face-value suspicious, but around here it seems like everyone makes this post. So I'll read that null.

Orange = She maintains that she has had time constraints, which I think is completely believable considering the circumstances she described earlier in the game. She pledged to comment on things as she came across them, which inevitably leads to...

Red = ...her opting to comment on the Golden controversy. It's not remotely suspicious to me that she elected to speak on this matter because it was the foremost discussion in the game. I'd be significantly more suspicious if she had ignored it or brushed it over. That this commentary exists does not trouble me at all -- I'll decide instead whether the content of the commentary should be a reason for concern.

So do I? I understand why some people are concerned. I am not sure that I am though. The first red sentence is perhaps a bit illogical -- it implies that baddie team killing Epi would have known Golden was trying to bait them into that kill, which is obviously not correct. The second sentence expands on her thought though and even when I try to see it through a baddie lens I feel a lot of doubt. This reads pretty innocuous to me, honestly. First of all I think her point is pretty sound -- blatant frame jobs don't always work, or at least they shouldn't (this one did ). Sorsha made the same point that someone else made (I think S~V~S?), that from a baddie perspective it'd make more sense to allow the two players to continue arguing long-term as a distraction.

To me this looks like a player trying to stay relevant in the thread by discussing the same topic that has dominated the game -- even to this point after Golden's demise. There is a logical discrepancy present -- it doesn't make sense to wonder about whether a baddie team would do what Golden is baiting them to do because they wouldn't know they're being baited. I think this is a minor point though. If she'd employed this logical error in a more aggressive anti-Golden agenda (hi Boomslang) I'd be more concerned. She seemed to be sorting through the issue out loud. This became a trend.

Spoiler: show

I've been reading through players posts, reviewing the suspicions that players have of each other and am finding it hard to choose someone to vote for. I either don't agree with the suspicion (if I can actually find that one was given) or I feel the player is neutral (which most of us still are).

linki: I'm not comfortable following the Speaker at this point either.

Is this really such a troubling post? Baddies are capable of total trepidation with their votes, but I don't see it as often as I see it from townies (in this case it could apply to neutrals). Nearly this exact lamentation has appeared repeatedly in this game from multiple players, not just Sorsha. I think it's understandable that she'd feel this way, especially since she wasn't able to keep up with activity in this game in real-time.

Spoiler: show

I have to get heading to work in a few minutes and likely won't be able to check the thread anymore tonight. I'm going to put another vote on tinybubbles for the voting without an explanation.

She did eventually place a vote, and she explained her position. If her objective was to frame Golden from a distance, then I don't think she did a very effective job of that. Indeed this vote evidences that she would have practically told the thread her own plan and then executed it.

"Baddies would want to perpetuate the Golden controversy as a distraction."

*tries to keep Golden alive by voting in one of the more active counterwagons*

Is that what happened? Maybe, you be the judge. I think we have to acknowledge this question though.

Spoiler: show

I see that golden is heading out and might not be back much but I have a question or two. Anyone else can weigh in on the answer as well. I have been away from mafia for a while and don't know/can't remember all the player dynamics.

First of all I'm of the mind that golden is not on the team that killed epi night one. I know golden still claims responsibility like that team is going to do his bidding for him but I'd think their motive was more to frame him. Anyone in particular come to mind as one who would do that?

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

If this is a frame job perpetrated by Sorsha, then it just officially became the frame-then-defend method of framing. This isn't framing-then-jabbing from a distance as many people seem to be asserting. The highlighted portion displays Sorsha finally coming to a stance on the Golden issue while still considering the same confusion she had originally (which I have stated seems logically fallacious but not in a suspicious way). I think this evidences a consistent mindset in Sorsha -- she explored the issue thoroughly, dealt with her own unique doubts, and eventually took a side. That's a good look for her I think.

Spoiler: show

In regards to what you say about tiny bubbles: ignoring votes is something that I used to do when I was new to mafia and a baddie for exactly that reason.... Blending in and hoping the suspicion would go away. She also made a comment about being emotionally invested in the game but looking at her posts it was pointed out that she doesn't really seem to invested in the game. It could be that she has btsc which is making her feel that way? Maybe some players who know her play style a bit better can speak up about her usual play style/ posting habits.

She expanded on her suspicious of TinyBubbles in a way that I like. I don't agree with her reasoning really, but I understand where it comes from and can follow her thought process. The connection between a potential BTSC and her claims of emotional investment is a unique and complex idea, one that I think is more likely to occur in the mind of a player who is genuinely interested in figuring out TinyBubbles. Sure, both baddie teams are likely to do some hunting, but I maintain that they are also more likely than others to make B/S posts. This isn't one in my opinion.

Spoiler: show

Wilgy clads himself in armor. The sun shines off his helmet blinding the crowd as he grabs his sword and shield. A cloud covers the sun and the reflection dissipates. The crowd can now see that Wilgy's sword and shield are both Golden*

Bring it on. Sorsha, I've had abit to drink tonight. Why don't you join me and tell me who framed Roger Rabit (Golden)?

Vote registered for Sorsha

Thats a good question Wilgy.. was it a frame or was it the result of a redirect (Ahriman), target switch (Master of Ancient Arts), switching three roles powers (Chaos Dancer) or a repel of kill to the Magnetarch?

Looks like Scotty has made a nice post about who may have framed Golden.

Do you think Golden was framed Wigly? And why did you vote for me? Also, what are your thoughts on the day ending early and no night?

She took a vote from DrWilgy and responded to it with a level head. Moreover she presented theories about the Epi kill that I don't think were present in this thread before this post (anyone please correct me if that's not true). Most appealingly, she doesn't merely try to move DrWilgy's vote elsewhere -- she tries to understand it as well as his perspective in general. She is working to figure him out simultaneously to figuring out why he voted for her. This is exactly what I do as a civilian in every game ever, so I appreciate it especially. Objectivity is my friend.

Spoiler: show

Thats a good question Wilgy.. was it a frame or was it the result of a redirect (Ahriman), target switch (Master of Ancient Arts), switching three roles powers (Chaos Dancer) or a repel of kill to the Magnetarch?

Do you think Golden was framed Wigly? And why did you vote for me? Also, what are your thoughts on the day ending early and no night?

Also, good dance around my question here, I feel like you slipped though. If Epig's death was simply a frame, I think you would be pursuing those who were going after him. I also think you wouldn't have voted Tiny when the votes were so stacked on Golden. You rose the question of if it could be a redirect. The only peole that can answer that question are the people that cast the kill and the person who caused the redirect. Which one are you Sorsha?

Like I said before, I'm not sure that he was framed. There are a few roles with powers that could have led to epis death and those so adamant that golden killed epi didn't seem to be talking about/ taking those into consideration. Unless I missed it.

She just keeps dropping truth bombs on all these dissenters. I don't necessarily think DrWilgy looks bad for asking these questions, but I don't think Sorsha has done a poor job of answering them either.

Sorsha's lengthy defense against Scotty's case

I thought Scotty was biased towards the negative when he cased DH. I think he did the same thing here. I'll decide later how that should reflect on him, but again -- I think Sorsha did everything we could reasonably ask of her with these responses. Her clarifications largely mesh with what I've inferred in this analysis, and I hadn't even seen them yet when I started writing this thing. I am inclined to believe her.

Spoiler: show

I think if you read my posts from a different pov you would get a different opinion, just my opinion. You are looking at my posts trying to find me guilty so that's what you see.

Hey look what I did!

~~~

If you read this and still want to lynch Sorsha, I want -- nay demand -- to know where you disagree.

[DrWilgy]

Spoiler: show

Thats a good question Wilgy.. was it a frame or was it the result of a redirect (Ahriman), target switch (Master of Ancient Arts), switching three roles powers (Chaos Dancer) or a repel of kill to the Magnetarch?

Do you think Golden was framed Wigly? And why did you vote for me? Also, what are your thoughts on the day ending early and no night?

Also, good dance around my question here, I feel like you slipped though. If Epig's death was simply a frame, I think you would be pursuing those who were going after him. I also think you wouldn't have voted Tiny when the votes were so stacked on Golden. You rose the question of if it could be a redirect. The only peole that can answer that question are the people that cast the kill and the person who caused the redirect. Which one are you Sorsha?

Like I said before, I'm not sure that he was framed. There are a few roles with powers that could have led to epis death and those so adamant that golden killed epi didn't seem to be talking about/ taking those into consideration. Unless I missed it.

Ok, theory craft with me then Sorsha. I would see the uncontrollable redirections as Chaos Dance, and Magnetarch, so I won't bother with those. I don't see Ahriman gaining out of redirecting the night kill onto Epi, and why would Ahriman kill Epi? If Epi was switched with someone via Master of Ancient Arts, who do you think was actually supposed to die?

I welcome any theories or comments about Sorsha's and my exchanges.

With regards to Ahriman redirecting a night kill: I guess it depends on if Ahriman knew it was a NK s/he was being targeted with. He could have just been told to choose a target to deflect all night actions to regardless of the action, I'm not sure how exactly that role would work, if he did know it was a NK then maybe he didn’t trust Epi. I don’t know the answer to “Why kill Epi?” though… I’m not Ahriman so I can’t answer that.

With regards to the Master of Ancient Arts switch, even that player wouldn’t know as he is switching players targets, not roles targets.

Ugh... You arent making this easy. Let me rephrase the question about the Master. If MoAA swapped two people, one of them being Epi, who do you think the other was? Also, I'm still on the fence about voting for Sorsha. Sorry SVS I submitted a vote for you and passed out before I could write anything up. I'll write out something as soon as I'm not busy.

[Scotty]

Hey y'all, I'm compiling a big post in which I defend Sorsha! Are you ready?

I like this!!

I also like this, but would like to know why you like this.

[Scotty]

thanks linki for not showing those 2 posts. Appreciated. Will read them now.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I still want to lynch Boomslang. I'll check into TinyBubbles and see whether I hate that wagon.

#tunnelingfordays

[JaggedJimmyJay]

One point that I'd expand on is this: I think baddie players are more likely to post B/S in this thread than non-baddies even with two baddie teams present. They can merely baddie-hunt like the civilians/neutrals, but there's more to their situation than that. What do I mean?

They are a team. Their priorities are different.

Here are the priorities for civilians and pro-civ neutrals:

1. Lynch baddies

/end

Here are the priorities for baddies of either team:

1. Lynch players that aren't members of their team, regardless of alignment

2. Lynch baddies of the other team

~~~

Because of that top priority for baddies, they'll be more likely to gleefully join errant bandwagons (any bandwagon for a player not on their team) even if it means they have to manufacture a fake reason for doing so.

[Roxy]

Nutella I promise to respond to your posts as soon as I am off work and properly buzzed.

Truly the best way to play mafia

[DrWilgy]

Hey y'all, I'm compiling a big post in which I defend Sorsha! Are you ready?

I like this!!

I also like this, but would like to know why you like this.

Because I'm not entirely sure were this bandwagon came from. I had some observations, but as far as I'm concerned Sorsha and I are still having a discussion.

[Tangrowth]

Alright, I'm here taking a break from PhD work, but only for 30-60 minutes tops. Gonna comment on some things.

[Tangrowth]

Holy Sorsha bandwagon batman!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

My RGB list:

Sorsha
TinyBubbles
Boomslang

Red being the case i find the most interesting, green being the case i felt 'meh' about, and blue being the case that didn't really feel like a case. Why is Boomslang considered a main suspect, exactly?

*votes Sorsha*

Tranq, I want you to comment on the case against Boomslang without someone else handing it to you. Why do you feel that way about it?

[Roxy]

Some responses are in Pretty Pink.

I personally feel boomslang is yet a Neutral. I think JJJ made his points - sure - but imo he is just going for another easy lynch.

This would imply that you found at least one of my points to be inadequate. Please show me. I've tried my best to assess players and come up with reads. If I wanted an "easy" lynch I would have just joined the anti-Golden crusade.

Where did I imply that?
Oh thats right I didn't. You are trying to put something into my post that simply is not there and making my post have a different inflection.

I made the assumption that you must not like my case if you still suspected me despite it specifically because of the player I was voting for.

Thats partially true I guess but mostly I really feel like you are a recruiter or have been recruited

I just think Boomslang would make a horrible recruit. (No offense Boomslang I said the same thing about my own son).
He has not really been in the thread.
You can tell he is not keeping up by looking at his posts.
If he is not around to read or post properly what makes you so sure he has had time to try for a recruitment?

I can understand your perspective, but I also think it's very dangerous to exonerate people just because they haven't seemed to be around as often. If this reasoning is accepted then we should simply lynch everyone who has been the most active one-by-one until the game is over.

And again you are pushing crap into posts that is not there. Where did I say EVERYONE who has been most active are bad? Oh that's right I didn't. I only have this suspicion of YOU.
I also have not exonerated EVERYONE bc they haven't seemed to be around as often. Just Boomslang and Bass but Bass id dead now. I do not think that 2 players equate to EVERYONE.

I think you, however, would make an excellent recruit.
you are paying attention to the thread.
You are playing the game and fully reading and posting.
You are under no suspicion but from me.
You have been around to eneter contests for recruitmen
You a good player so you know how to play the same once recruited.
You are pushing neutral easy lynch after lynch.

I don't know how to respond to this within the boundaries of Syndicate rules -- it's still very foreign to me compared to RYM. I'm going to have to ask the hosts first.

What? Why do you have to discuss a defense first with the hosts? This reads as extremely shady.

[Tangrowth]

S~V~S, I'm not trying to get you killed or anything like that. Baddies want to kill other baddies probably as much as they do those who are considered civilian; and, in this game, there might be even more incentive to keeping players who seem to be considered civilian around more than in typical games, either to recruit them or to make players tinfoil against them ('Why haven't you died yet? You must be recruited!').

Besides, it's only my opinion. If the baddies decide to kill the player at the top of my rainbow list every time, so be it, but I can't imagine they value my opinion that highly. The benefits I receive in forcing myself to evaluate every player, as well as in organizing my thoughts on all of those players, by making a rainbow list outweigh any possible cons, in my opinion, very easily.

Spoiler: show

OK, I'll try, but a lot of these are kind of arbitrary. I'm honestly just going to c/p from yours and switch around a bunch of names. Also just to be clear the green end includes people I think are more likely to just be unrecruited (such as myself), rather than specifically civ.


nutella

S~V~S
Scotty
Canucklehead

JaggedJimmyJay
MovingPictures07
birdwithteeth11
bea

Bullzeye
Roxy
unfurl
DrWilgy
Ricochet

Turnip Head
Russtifinko / Synonym
Spacedaisy
timmer

thellama73
Tranq
DisgruntledPorcupine
DFaraday
aapje
Devin the Omniscient

LoRab
Metalmarsh89
Sorsha
Boomslang
TinyBubbles
Dom

DharmaHelper
reywaS


Meh, this didn't feel like a very helpful exercise, a lot of this is uncertain and subject to change. I had reconsidered Rey's likelihood of baddieness and rescinded my suspicion of him by the end of the previous day, but now I have put him back at the bottom for that recent post of his about not posting after Golden's lynch because that pinged me six ways to sunday.

nutella, thanks for the list! How much more strongly do you feel about DH and rey than those in the category above?

As to Boomslang, Jay... Can you see his exchange from you coming from a neutral perspective?

Maybe. I can see players of any alignment responding incredulously to a logical breakdown like the one I employed. I've mulled over it for a night and at this point the most troubling Boomslang post in that exchange is the one Bullzeye highlighted:

I disagree. Now what you need to ask yourself is this: am I bad, or just stupid?

This statement is included somewhere in the Encyclopedia Baddietannica, at least in my experience.

JJJ, can you elaborate what exactly it is you find troubling about this post? What's the baddie mindset? I'm trying to understand it and am just not sure I'm seeing the mindset of a baddie in that post.

[Tangrowth]

Can we talk about Devin? He keeps bandwagoning and no one is calling him out for it. He's ever increasingly falling down my list every time I see a post from him.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Thats partially true I guess but mostly I really feel like you are a recruiter or have been recruited

Stating how you "feel" doesn't give me any avenue to defend myself.

And again you are pushing crap into posts that is not there. Where did I say EVERYONE who has been most active are bad? Oh that's right I didn't. I only have this suspicion of YOU.
I also have not exonerated EVERYONE bc they haven't seemed to be around as often. Just Boomslang and Bass but Bass id dead now. I do not think that 2 players equate to EVERYONE.

You exonerated those two players for reasons that could apply to a large number of other players just as easily. You've stated suspicion of me for reasons that could apply to a large number of other players just as easily.

What? Why do you have to discuss a defense first with the hosts? This reads as extremely shady.

The rules here are absolutely nothing like the rules I've known for 97% of my Mafia life. I literally don't know for sure what I'm even allowed to say around here yet. I have only played the equivalent of about two games on The Syndicate after all.

I did ask them though. I've only applied for one recruitment slot (civilian) and I was not selected. Believe me or don't believe me, there's not much I can say to influence you. You've given me ZERO space for that.

[Tangrowth]

Jay, do you think you'd be able to make a Rainbow List at this time?

[Roxy]

I personally feel boomslang is yet a Neutral. I think JJJ made his points - sure - but imo he is just going for another easy lynch.

This would imply that you found at least one of my points to be inadequate. Please show me. I've tried my best to assess players and come up with reads. If I wanted an "easy" lynch I would have just joined the anti-Golden crusade.

Where did I imply that?
Oh thats right I didn't. You are trying to put something into my post that simply is not there and making my post have a different inflection.

I just think Boomslang would make a horrible recruit. (No offense Boomslang I said the same thing about my own son).
He has not really been in the thread.
You can tell he is not keeping up by looking at his posts.
If he is not around to read or post properly what makes you so sure he has had time to try for a recruitment?

I think you, however, would make an excellent recruit.
you are paying attention to the thread.
You are playing the game and fully reading and posting.
You are under no suspicion but from me.
You have been around to eneter contests for recruitmen
You a good player so you know how to play the same once recruited.
You are pushing neutral easy lynch after lynch.

I actually agree with most of this post, with two caveats:
1) It is equally likely that JJJ has been recruited as a civvie.
2) Why are you discounting the possibility that Boomslang started out as a baddie, as one of the leaders?

1.)No. Bc his posts have a tone that does not feel civvie. He has pushed his Boomslang case (I am not the only one who does not see it yet he keeps pushing and pushing) not even trying to look for other suspicions. Though I admit I am not fully caught up. His responses did not help him any bc he keeps trying to insinuate crap into my posts that is not there. Why keep trying to say I am calling everyone who is a high poster bad when I clearly am only calling *him* bad?

2.) I hope BR and LC do not take offense to this as I hope other players don't as well but do I really think BR would put Boomslang as a recruiter? No I don't. Even if they random'ed the roles I believe there was more than one or two tweaks. I do it in games I host.