Day 12 ~ 2015 Game of Champions

#1851

I'd take Rico's advice and try to only read the thread thoroughly from the point where Rico was lynched. Only really need to read before that if you are looking at specific people, I reckon, because any suspicion that is still relevant afterwards will crop up again.

#1852

Long Con wrote:I think you are on zebra's team.

I think you're a crackpot.

Long Con wrote:I think, especially in a Champions Game, a baddie curser role on the first night would not target someone who they want to silence.

Why does it matter at all that this is a champions game? That's irrelevant.

Long Con wrote:I believe that zebra targeted her teammate JJJ with the curse, because they saw an opportunity to frame Llama.

That makes no sense. First of all, if that's the strategy then the person being emoji'd has no viable method to pursue that framejob. I couldn't bloody talk! Second, Zebra made no effort herself to pursue that end, and she even pooh-poohed the notion that llama was responsible. Now we know that's because she was responsible. There's no value in trying to frame somebody if it can't actually turn into a case constructed of legible words. People did end up voting for llama, but many of them didn't actually give a reason why. They just did it.

Long Con wrote:JJJ was very sure that Llama was the one that cursed him.

I absolutely was not "very sure" llama was the one that cursed me. You've made that up. I literally said something else when Zebra herself asked me post-curse:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Cool well as long as llama willfully ignores me I'm gonna go ahead and continue trying to guide him to the guillotine.
Could you clarify why you thought/think that he cursed you?
I don't know whether llama did that. Maybe llama has team mates.

I was a threat to nobody on Night 0, being so vocally detached and lazy as I was. I made exactly one case against someone that was remotely substantive, that being llama. Llama addressed some posts in the general vicinity of that case, but never responded to anything I said. At any point. The next day I was posting in emoticons. Maybe there's a connection. Even if not, his ignorance of me is clearly deliberate at this point and I don't think town llama has any reason to ignore me. I've done nothing to insult him in any prior game, and I have not been a significant part of this game's torrent pace -- so I haven't annoyed him either. All I've done is cast suspicion upon him, both in the form of Night 0 text and Day 1 emojis.

He hasn't given me the time of day. I think he should become dead as soon as possible.

Long Con wrote:I believe they would try to pull a frame-up job.

Long Con wrote:Has he even considered that it might be an attempt to frame Llama?

Sure I have. It's not a theory I've viewed as the best theory because llama was so difficult to engage with at all -- multiple long phases of complete ignorance of everything I posted (text or emoji). It's a possibility. So is the idea that llama is on Zebra's team and she used her ability against someone threatening him. That's not at all farfetched.

It's also possible that Zebra cursed me because she could tell I didn't feel like dealing with Mafia and it'd be a fun break from the norm. If that's the case, thanks Zebra. It was fun.

#1853

FZ. wrote:When I saw what JJJ wrote about zebra and her enjoying his curse, my first reaction was exactly like HB's, thinking that he could easily be on her team. Give credit early on to someone while giving someone who is a very high poster a legit reason to post less, which is something I would appreciate as a baddie having to live up to the expectations people have of my civ persona. That said, I didn't read any day 1 discussion, so I don't know how much JJJ contributed to the discussion. If he was in fact limited in what he could say or convey, I'd expect him to come in full force when he was released from the curse and share his thoughts and ease his frustration. Has he done that? I'm still reading. So, for all of you who have been here on day 1, how does his behaviour fit in with what I said?

On Day 1 I contributed very little to discussion. I tried my best, but very few people seemed to have a clue what I was trying to say. I also contributed little on Night 0, because I was willfully setting a low standard for myself in this game. On that front, yes it was nice to get cursed. Less obligation. That doesn't mean I'm Zebra's team mate accepting her help. I said in the sign-up thread that I wouldn't be a crazy posting maniac in this game and that's the truth.

It will remain the truth, and not only because of my own lack of desire to play as hard as I often do. My play is also motivated by this:

S~V~S wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Hey hosts, if you're willing could you tell us whether dead people are capable of winning this game? If this is already covered somewhere, muh bad.
My infallible oracle says~

TH may be nicer than I & tell you, but I would not count on it

If I don't even know whether being killed would preclude me from winning, I'm not going to encourage my own demise. Typically I play loose and don't concern myself with that, but now I have no choice.

#1854

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:No wonder Zebra was having the most fun observing my emoji frustration. :P

Should be some great opportunities for finding her team mates. She was highly vocal.
JaggedJimmyJay

I found one such instance. I don't know if this is enough to say that she was having the most fun with your emoji frustration.

Here, have another.

More importantly, the word "most" or even the general concept of my post -- that Zebra seemed to be enjoying my situation -- is not suspicious at all and I think you're making it up.

#1855

bcornett24 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Maybe we should quote the entire thing again.
How do you currently feel about being red on multiple rainbow lists?
I care so much less than I have cared in years. It's a liberating feeling. I don't think I've done anything remotely suspicious, but I'm probably biased, yanno? I'm me.
Apethetic Jay has arrived... FIREBALL!

I just realized what this post refers to. As some may recall, bcornett is a high school chum of mine. We and our other chums played D&D often (insert Homer Simpson neeeerd picture). One time we were playing after I'd completed a miserable double shift on two hours of sleep, and I was obviously exhausted. I could barely tell what was going on in the game, and bcornett the DM decided to obstruct my wizard's passing with a large crowd of civilians. So in my fatigued stupor I slaughtered them all with a fireball and forever turned the course of our group in the eyes of the 5-0 forever. /end silly story

#1856

Zebra and bcornett24

Spoiler: show

Nothing conclusive really. The second one is clear WIFOM. GTH I would call bcornett as being not on Zebra's team.

Zebra and Bass_the_Clever

No mentions either way. Inconclusive.

Zebra and Black Rock

Banter

Spoiler: show

Dismisses Black Rock's doubts about Rico as a baddie read. This is a circumstantial mention and doesn't tell me much.

Spoiler: show

Black Rock wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:I'm voting for you because you're using your post count to control the direction of the thread, and you're using your attitude as an excuse for any suspicious things you might happen to say. Your wrap-up post above seems like a genuine effort, but in the greater context of your ISO it can't be trusted as genuine. And your gimmick seems to have even fooled some of the players. Black Rock for instance made the point that as a baddie you wouldn't have a decent reason to call so much attention to yourself. I know the reason. To get as many people as possible to think just that, that you wouldn't be so "reckless" as a baddie to perform the way you have. I'm not perfect but I like to think I'm pretty decent at being able to tell the difference between civ WIFOM and mafia WIFOM, and you reek of the latter.

I was trying to stay out of the WIFOM of it all, your point is valid and maybe I shouldn't just chalk it up to crap non-baddie behaviour. He does make me want to vote him for his crap posts.

Black Rock wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:I'm fairly certain there are two curse roles, even if Draconus and/or JJJ is faking their curse.
That's a funny thing to say, what makes you so sure?

Black Rock wrote:Just a thought in my head: I can't wait to see what Rico turns. I am so back and forth with him. I think he is civ or neutral but Zebra keeps on bringing up such valid points for him being a WIFOM baddie.

Black Rock wrote:
Ricochet wrote:I still don't get why you're voting LoRab over me, if I have wasted your precious day of baddie hunting. Has she?

I should explain why I am voting LoRab over you. I think she is bad. I do not think you are. Zebra might be right about you but I still think you are more likely neutral and having fun with it. I find you a distraction but I still like you and if you are good you should be in the game.

Black Rock wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:I like Ricochet as well, but I think you're underestimating the negative power of distractions.

I'm not, I just am giving him a chance to turn his game around.

I might be underestimating him though.

To be clear, at this point I won't be sad if he gets lynched. I do want to move on myself.

BR's willingness to read Rico as neutral/town but still voice support for Zebra's case against him isn't ideal. She flirts with Rico as a suspect, never seems to fully latch on, but still endorses his demise and credits Zebra for much of her flexibility (perhaps allowing Zebra to take the blame for an eventual non-mafia flip). I am not sure this indicates a team mate relationship between Zebra and BR, but it is a bit suspicious on its own power.

Zebra and Boomslang

Spoiler: show

Zebra waited a while to do it, but eventually she cast suspicion upon Boomslang. The first list of suspects she provided might be useful if we're inclined to assume the one team mate on the baddie list cliche (I'm undecided). It must be noted that at no point on Day 1 was any result other than a Ricochet lynch likely to occur -- so this suspicion being cast did not amount to serious pressure or danger. I think it's team mate compatible, but not necessarily team mate indicative.

Spoiler: show

This is a valid point on Boomslang's part, though it's directed against Long Con. Zebra is mentioned in an indirectly relevant way.

Zebra and Dom

No mentions either way (other than one irrelevant mention by Zebra in an early conversation with Mac). Dom has been a little more active than Bass at least, so I'd call it a bit more suspicious in this case. Just 10 posts though so it's hard to say.

Zebra and DrWilgy

Spoiler: show

Only mention by Zebra, and it's not really relevant to Doc's content in this game. No mentions of Zebra by Doc. This is somewhat noteworthy because Doc did amass 31 posts. Zebra was a key player in the early action of this game, so I'm surprised Doc didn't find any inspiration to interact with or talk about her even once. Most of his posts are about RadicalFuzz. A bit suspicious.

Zebra and Draconus

Spoiler: show

It's fun that Zebra pretty much roleclaimed to the thread that she was a curse role. She might have felt that a separate mafia team to her own also had a cursing role. If that's the case, and we assume Draconus wasn't cursed by his own team (I don't think so), then I also think this looks like non-team mate interaction. That would be a good look for Draconus, even if it's rather speculative. I don't get the vibe that he was faking the curse.

Zebra and Epignosis

Spoiler: show

Not much there. There are a few ways to interpret this that I think are plausible/realistic. I'll list them in my perceived order of likelihood, starting with the most likely.

1. Epi was detached for a long stretch while the pace of the game got out of hand and it made him less a part of most discussions including those fielded by Zebra.

2. Zebra consciously avoided interacting with Epignosis for the sake of not poking the hornet's nest.

3. The lack of interaction is rooted in their cooperative efforts as team mates to avoid connections.

I think 1 and 2 are mutually inclusive. GTH I would call Epi as a non-team mate of Zebra.

~~~

I might resume this later.

#1857

I had a look at Zebra's interactions earlier and of everybody juliets look the most likely to be teammate interactions to me, but as you will have seen we had HamburgerBoy unusually leap to the defense of someone who he had a meta based scum read on on day 1 which gives me pause and makes me consider that he knows she isn't actually Zebra's teammate. Upon asking juliets and sig their opinions I was given the indication that the three of them think I am wrong about the various theories I postulated, so I'm happy to report that it's business as usual for me.

Others I think are worth looking at are sig, metalmarsh and Matt. Sig looks a likely teammate. Metalmarsh could really go either way and Matt had some pingy interactions. Golden I read as non teammate but there is a lot of interaction and reference to one another so you might think differently. There's also plenty of Zebra/Mac stuff to trawl through if you're so inclined.

So why have you looked straight past a bunch of stuff that is on the very topic you are using to base your hunt? That seems strange. Don't you think the best place to start would have been where there's already content rather than arbitrarily starting at "a"?

#1858

So, I may or may not have written this last night and then forgot to hit submit.

Looking at the night post, unless there was a redirect, it seems more than likely that there is more than 1 baddie team (the slight possibility of a redirect or some such allowing for a mafia team to kill its own), which I think warrants noting. Need to go back and read zebra's posts to see if there are any connections there. In all my lack of free time this weekend. I may need to do it Monday.

Golden wrote:Anyone play a game where paper rock scissors was relevant? It's not ringing bells with me.

About a million years ago, Seals and Bigs used Rock Paper Scissors in LOST Mafia on LP to decide ties. Late/end game, there was a tense tie between 2 players which ended with RPS. A short time later, when Illy and I were hosting Angel mafia on TP, those same 2 players ended the game in a tied lynch, which we had them break by playing rock paper scissors. TH played both those games and might remember. I don't believe SVS played either (don't see it on my spreadsheet from hosting and checked LP for LOST).

That is the only RPS connection with mafia in my mind.

sig wrote:So zebra was mafia, that most likely means JJJ wasn't on her team. I did see the idea that she picked him, but this makes little sense for day 1. I think it is worth looking into the players who after Rico flipped made comments, like saying how they hope he isn't as spammy or it would be better to have lynched a baddie. I find the first group to almost be trying to weaken Rico's credit thus giving him less of an opinion and basically neutering him, and the second group to just be scummy.

I think a few mafia members were on the Rico wagon, however I also think there is a good chance that either LoRab or Llama are scum.

I don't have many civ or scum reads right know, but I do think Long Con is a civilian, and I'm leaning scum on Llama. Know here is my question do you think the early snipping that Llama and Zebra did was fabricated? It was only a little bit, but I'm curious what people think of it.

I think with Zebra's lynch it also makes it less likely that Mac is on her team.

One last thing, if Roger Rabbit was a civ role last game wouldn't it be odd for it to be a scum role this game? Could this be some sort of seemer/prankster thing? Remember Night 0 scum was able to do actions in theory they could have targeted Zebra and then killed her today. This could be a seemer role where it replaces the scum who used it, just switched the alignment, or let the seemer pick a role.
I think the chances of this are low, but then again the chances of hitting a mafia night 1 is also small.

It is possible that Llama is mafia--I am not.

Epignosis wrote:I'm still on Lorab. I said she cracked under pressure. I applied pressure. She disappeared. When she came back, she was sweet as sugar. I think her twirly behind got the jitters when I called her out so early.

I'm not really sure what you mean (or meant) by my cracking under pressure. And I didn't disappear--I simply did not have time to play mafia that day. I didn't get any jitters--just a mild air of frustration of being suspected once again for things that don't mean that I'm bad and that cause false conclusions that I am. Just like I wasn't a baddie when you first suspected me, I'm still not a baddie.

#1859

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:That makes no sense. First of all, if that's the strategy then the person being emoji'd has no viable method to pursue that framejob. I couldn't bloody talk! Second, Zebra made no effort herself to pursue that end, and she even pooh-poohed the notion that llama was responsible. Now we know that's because she was responsible. There's no value in trying to frame somebody if it can't actually turn into a case constructed of legible words. People did end up voting for llama, but many of them didn't actually give a reason why. They just did it.

Well that's obviously not true since you managed to convey your distrust of llama quite easily (Mac and zebra being your first help, interestingly enough, so "no effort" isn't quite true either). Not everyone gave a reason for voting or suspecting llama, but I'd imagine the people voting llama had weighed it in. I had, at least.

Changing gears slightly, going back to that made me find this...

Dom wrote:I'll vote Rico or Llama. Exhausted from this catch up.

That was spoken night 0. While people were getting pretty anti-Rico by that point, I think the inclusion of Llama in there is noteworthy when you hadn't even been cursed yet, and llama hadn't really done much aside from calling sig fluffy and attacking Mac/defending Rico in the big argument. Based on my last game with Dom, I remember him actually jumping the gun a little bit after Chatzy discussion (near the end of the game trying to win over fingersplints), and him throwing llama's name out there in an either-or for two of the eventual poll leaders is a red flag for me. I'll bump him down to orange in my rainbow as well.

#1860

MacDougall wrote:I had a look at Zebra's interactions earlier and of everybody juliets look the most likely to be teammate interactions to me, but as you will have seen we had HamburgerBoy unusually leap to the defense of someone who he had a meta based scum read on on day 1 which gives me pause and makes me consider that he knows she isn't actually Zebra's teammate. Upon asking juliets and sig their opinions I was given the indication that the three of them think I am wrong about the various theories I postulated, so I'm happy to report that it's business as usual for me.

Others I think are worth looking at are sig, metalmarsh and Matt. Sig looks a likely teammate. Metalmarsh could really go either way and Matt had some pingy interactions. Golden I read as non teammate but there is a lot of interaction and reference to one another so you might think differently. There's also plenty of Zebra/Mac stuff to trawl through if you're so inclined.

So why have you looked straight past a bunch of stuff that is on the very topic you are using to base your hunt? That seems strange. Don't you think the best place to start would have been where there's already content rather than arbitrarily starting at "a"?

How would I know she isn't Zebra's teammate? If you're assuming juliets and Zebra were scumbuddies, my defense should therefore imply that I too am their scumbuddy, right? Therefore I would know. If you're saying that I'm scum but on a different team from juliets and Zebra, then I would have no way of knowing juliets is Zebra's partner unless I got info on her last night. And if that's the case, why in the hell wouldn't I push for her lynch just as I did during A World Reborn where you (indy) fed me (Circle of Death) info on her (Witherdeath) being scum?

You've reverted to ignoring me when I say I'm hardly "defending" her, I don't have any reason to believe she is town, I just don't think the link between her and Zebra is as strong as you do. If somehow it ends up a close lynch and my actual suspects aren't there, I'd still be down to lynch her over my other neutrals.

I actually like the point Jimmy made about the Black Rock-zebra case, and Black Rock has a number of other waffly and suspicious aspects as I had previously stated. I'll leave my vote on Jimmy and when I wake up and see how things have developed, I will probably move my vote to Black Rock, also contingent on her own defense, as well as what Dom has to say.

#1861

Long Con wrote:I didn't remember TH's avatar for the Spider Monkey thing. These avatar-changing types are hard to keep up with sometimes. You won't catch me doing that.

What will we catch you doing?

#1862

Epignosis wrote:
Long Con wrote:I didn't remember TH's avatar for the Spider Monkey thing. These avatar-changing types are hard to keep up with sometimes. You won't catch me doing that.
What will we catch you doing?

#1863

MacDougall wrote:So why have you looked straight past a bunch of stuff that is on the very topic you are using to base your hunt? That seems strange. Don't you think the best place to start would have been where there's already content rather than arbitrarily starting at "a"?

Because what you describe is the definition of tunnel-vision. You have a narrow field of players that you have already made connections with, and you're deliberately focusing upon them. I don't do that, I think it encourages internal bias and makes the exercise of reading interactivity less productive. Alphabetical order is essentially randomized and it enables me to check names that aren't already being discussed frequently in this game. I hope to get to everyone eventually anyway so it really doesn't matter.

#1864

HamburgerBoy wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:That makes no sense. First of all, if that's the strategy then the person being emoji'd has no viable method to pursue that framejob. I couldn't bloody talk! Second, Zebra made no effort herself to pursue that end, and she even pooh-poohed the notion that llama was responsible. Now we know that's because she was responsible. There's no value in trying to frame somebody if it can't actually turn into a case constructed of legible words. People did end up voting for llama, but many of them didn't actually give a reason why. They just did it.
Well that's obviously not true since you managed to convey your distrust of llama quite easily (Mac and zebra being your first help, interestingly enough, so "no effort" isn't quite true either). Not everyone gave a reason for voting or suspecting llama, but I'd imagine the people voting llama had weighed it in. I had, at least.

Mac and Golden did a nice job of translating my content. Zebra really didn't. More importantly, displaying suspicion of llama was all I could do. I couldn't qualify that suspicion with any manner of explanation or expansion, I just had to stick it in the thread and hope people knew what the hell I was trying to say. In fact, nobody at all picked up on the biggest component of my suspicion until you did -- that llama never addressed anything I said on Night 0 and was dismissive of DH's suspicion too. You arrived rather late in the phase, before that I don't remember seeing anyone state real reasons for their llama votes. Fuzz just followed my lead for reasons I don't know. DrWilgy followed him. I don't recall what Long Con had to say on the matter.

#1865

I apologize that I cannot quote the post I am answering. It would not let me embed another post within the long string of posts. This is directed at Mac re: his last post about me:

Your evidence is I don't sound sincere or genuine - that I am verbose. Zebra made accusations against me but other than that I don't know what evidence you are talking about. Is it all about my sincerity? I still maintain you just don't understand how I communicate and thats why you question my sincerity and think I'm verbose. It happens, (the sincerity part, never has anyone called me verbose it's usually just the opposite) especially with people who haven't played with me much. But, we are just going to go around and around about that and I do not have any belief that I will change your mind. You could though point me toward this other "evidence" of my baddieness.

#1866

JJJ, like HamburgerBoy already pointed out, despite the fact that you couldn't talk, you managed to easily convey that you believed Llama cursed you, and why you believed he cursed you. Saying "I couldn't bloody talk" is disingenuous.

The fact that Zebra didn't agree with you and pursue Llama as a suspect makes complete sense as a baddie teammate. If Llama is going to flip Civ, then it looks good on her that she wasn't after him with you.

Now we know that's because she was responsible. There's no value in trying to frame somebody if it can't actually turn into a case constructed of legible words.

How can you say there's no value in it, when Llama was on par with Lorab as the top lynch candidate, without Rico in the equation?

Now you have torn your shirt open

and gone to super-civ mode with your very helpful breakdown of zebra's interactions... after you have been accused. That looks like scrambling to me.

#1867

Long Con wrote:JJJ, like HamburgerBoy already pointed out, despite the fact that you couldn't talk, you managed to easily convey that you believed Llama cursed you, and why you believed he cursed you. Saying "I couldn't bloody talk" is disingenuous.

I don't think I was able to convey why I felt he might be connected to the curse (again, I already clarified that I didn't think it had to be llama that cursed me). Nobody picked up on it at all until the end of Day 1 when Burger showed up. Golden came close, but he still didn't quite read into what I was trying to say.

Long Con wrote:The fact that Zebra didn't agree with you and pursue Llama as a suspect makes complete sense as a baddie teammate. If Llama is going to flip Civ, then it looks good on her that she wasn't after him with you.

Not if that is counterproductive to the entire notion of a frame. If neither of us is capable of/interested in truly mounting a compelling case against Llama, then the frame plan can't even function. Moreover, your accusation here hinges on the notion that Llama was framed -- do you trust him? Have you read the reasons I've stated for suspecting him? You need to address the actual case I provided if you're going to suggest I'm not being sincere in presenting that case.

Long Con wrote:How can you say there's no value in it, when Llama was on par with Lorab as the top lynch candidate, without Rico in the equation?

Because when The Great Frame Job plan is being developed in BTSC, there's no way for Zebra or I to anticipate people hopping aboard the bandwagon for no reason whatsoever -- as was the case with Fuzz and Wilgy. Apart from them, there was never any real interest in pursuing that lynch beyond my own largely-ignored echoing. You actually voted for llama too: why?

Long Con wrote:Now you have torn your shirt open and gone to super-civ mode with your very helpful breakdown of zebra's interactions... after you have been accused. That looks like scrambling to me.

No. If you think my breakdown is "very helpful", then it is disingenuous of you to assert that it's nothing more than "scrambling". Moreover, I am under basically no pressure right now. Two votes early in the day phase are pretty much meaningless. You have no idea how I view a Mafia game if you think I'd call that Scramble Time.

#1868

Ricochet wrote:
sig wrote: One last thing, if Roger Rabbit was a civ role last game wouldn't it be odd for it to be a scum role this game? Could this be some sort of seemer/prankster thing? Remember Night 0 scum was able to do actions in theory they could have targeted Zebra and then killed her today. This could be a seemer role where it replaces the scum who used it, just switched the alignment, or let the seemer pick a role.
I think the chances of this are low, but then again the chances of hitting a mafia night 1 is also small.
I hit a mafia with my wii vigi gun on Night 1 in the Donner game (from which my role is).

Why would a non-mafia seemer role choose to show up as mafia? Besides, her role (powers) still sounded scummy. She would have been able to screw up with a (presumably cop's) alignment checks. The insanification part can usually be attributed to both town and anti-town (if the question-ifier is town, it makes sense for balance purposes), but her "position 4" is the biggest indicator that she was up to no good.

Or are you saying her killer can change how he shows up? Is this a reference to the Trickster or any other role this past year? What did the Trickster do in WR?

The only thing I don't get is how come zebra acted cognizant within minutes of her death. Night victims don't usually get told they're going down (except if you're watching footie at Epig's home while he's hosting). Strange near-death behaviour.

I was saying her killer might be able to change her role or alignment, I haven't seen a role like that on TS yet, but I've played on other sites that have such a role. I think the chances of it happening is low, but figured it was worth mentioning.

MacDougall wrote: Others I think are worth looking at are sig, metalmarsh and Matt. Sig looks a likely teammate. Metalmarsh could really go either way and Matt had some pingy interactions. Golden I read as non teammate but there is a lot of interaction and reference to one another so you might think differently. There's also plenty of Zebra/Mac stuff to trawl through if you're so inclined.

Mac thinks I'm worth looking at?

Unless Mac is scum trying to set me up then he doesn't deserve my blushes.

#1869

I suspected Llama for seeming to prey a little on minutiae that I consider easy targets, like sig's use of the word "interesting" in a Day 0 post that was "too much fluff", more or less. I did explain in slightly greater detail at the time.

#1870

I will be back later tonight with some thoughts after I have fully re-read everything I need to.

#1871

Hi Sig

#1872

Zebra and Golden

Spoiler: show

a2thezebra wrote:
Golden wrote:
MacDougall wrote:
MacDougall wrote:

Unvote
vote MacDougall

So that test didn't work.

Thinking about Rico now... How could Ricochet be scum? It makes no fucking sense. He is playing sooooo whack, he is seemingly trying to get votes cast on him, and that's not a scum role imo. I think he might be my World Reborn role, or something like it. Where I had a win con of getting shit tons of votes on me and was a cop, and lynchproof etc. I was indy.

He smells indy as fuck to me.
Thats exactly why, to me, it makes so much fucking sense for Rico to be bad.

Rational people should rationalise it the way you just did. Rico has played it up SO MUCH that at this point I think he realised early he was taking heat and decided to wifom his way out of it.
Bingo.

a2thezebra wrote:
Golden wrote:So Draconus has also been cursed? To post only in questions?
That or faking it, yes.

a2thezebra wrote:
Golden wrote:I did it and came up with...

None of them will be MetalMarsh or JJ.

That's about it. I don't think you've even expressed a view on me.
You are correct that neither of them are in my list, although I'm a little surprised you guessed JJ.

a2thezebra wrote:Haha, Mac got two right and Golden got none right.

a2thezebra wrote:Thanks Ricochet.

Golden and I seem to be on a very similar wavelength so far this game, I can dig it.

a2thezebra wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Told you he wanted to be lynched zebra.
Don't forget that you did convince me before the day was over that this was true, and I even changed my vote for less than half a minute.

I do still stand by that lynching Rico was the right way to go. Golden makes a good point that if a civ wants to be lynched, they should get what they want nine times out of ten.

a2thezebra wrote:
Golden wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:I'm voting marmota because marmot, hellooooooo
Not realising that the one above it is zebra...

I realized, simply because I'm the only user that starts with "a". Marmot is an international hero.

This might look like a lot, but it's less than I anticipated considering the post count between these two. Zebra interacted indirectly with Golden quite often though, primarily through his arguments with Rico and discussions with Mac. None of the above pings me as team mate-probable. In fact, I rather like that Zebra was so engaged in the activity of supporting Golden's arguments against Rico at every opportunity. I think most mafia-aligned players would be disinclined from such thorough mind-melding like this. It could be said that Zebra sought to buddy Golden, but I might take it a step further and suggest he wanted the thread at large to have the perception that he and Golden were cooperatively supertowning. That would suggest a non-team mate relationship.

Spoiler: show

Golden wrote:
MacDougall wrote:I don't recall you being this immediately adversarial in Dune
My recollection might be skewed by the fact she was adversarial towards me, but I feel as though zebra was fairly immediately adversarial in Dune. You might recall I was calling her out on day one for something like her second post appearing to be a massive overreaction.

Golden wrote:Plus, my feelings on Mac have shifted. I don't have any active suspicion of him any more up to where I've read. I don't agree with him about the rico/zebra fight being staged. If they were both to be bad, I'd guess that would mean two baddie teams.

Mac, if you could choose one person to be immediately lynched at this moment, who would be your choice?

Golden wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:linki - Haha, I didn't even bother to check that. All I knew was that even if it were true, it's not alignment-indicative regardless.
This makes me feel good about zebra. Or at least, for me it demonstrates that the (patently silly) b24/zebra team theory is wrong. If they were actually teammates, zebra would have been much more likely to point out the inaccuracies (or demonstrate awareness of them), rather than just say 'its wrong' in the way he did.

Golden wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:However, shockingly enough I've got my eye on six others who may end up with my vote by the end of the day. Can you guess who they are?

Ricochet wrote:Your teammates?
No matter what affiliation rico (or zebra) is, this was awesome and hilarious.

Golden wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:Why has no one bothered to ask me about my six other potential votes for the day? Especially since most of us seem to agree that Rico is getting too much attention.
I don't think anyone needs to ask for you to share.

I was actually meaning to ask you why we needed to guess? Just for funsies?

Golden wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:For funsies as well as to get an idea if anyone's misreading me be it deliberately (alignment-indicative) or because I post too much (not alignment-indicative).

I'm kind of surprised that you think they don't need to be guessed. You think you can correctly guess all six then? Remember, this is excluding Rico.
No, I couldn't guess one.

I can't pay attention to what everyone elses suspicions are this early on in the game. It takes getting deep before I have any hope of tracking where everyones head is at. I really only notice that 'player x suspects player y' if it is aligning with things I'm already thinking about and seeing.

But, I will do a brief ISO of you and guess for funsies.

Golden wrote:
Ricochet wrote:I can only hope Golden's ISO will reveal how bad zebra is.
Well....

It did make me feel like there isn't a huge amount of analysis there.

Does this make her bad? There were huge amounts of analysis in her Star Wars iso. So I'd say, on the face of it, that it does not make her bad.

But I was underwhelmed by how much I got out of 130 posts.

Golden wrote:@Mac - maybe, maybe not. As noted, I know from Star Wars that zebra is able to choose to appear supatown when bad. Choosing to look slightly lazy (in comparison to that game) could be a very good and intentional counterpoint to her Star Wars persona (regardless of her affiliation).

Based on going back and reading her iso, I would have her just slightly bad in my rainbow, but very close to neutral. I was disappointed to see how high a percentage of the content was just dealing with all the rico stuff, and how vague the rest is. And I don't really see why you wouldn't just offer up who is bad rather than asking people to guess (even for funsies).

But, I don't understand those things from any particular affiliation mindset.

Golden wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:Everything HBoy has said regarding Rico is leading me to believe he's desperately trying to save his teammate.
There's a part of me that feels that this is exactly what is going on. That sentence I requoted for emphasis feeds in to this in particular. That whole "I guess I could see an angle where that person is bad, and it is angle x' thing... it feels manufactured.

There is another part which just feels like a player who is trying to catch up on the thread and missing large chunks of information, but even if bad I like that he has come in so late and made an effort. It would be tempting to just slide by for a while (especially if bad), so that is a point in his favour.

I'm torn. But I'm interested in his responses to my questions.

A clear shift is visible in Golden's reception of Zebra from the start of the game to the time of her demise. At the earliest stage he gave her positive marks and stood mildly in her defense when she fielded some accusations. That changed later in Day 1 after Golden performed a more thorough review of her content and decided it wasn't as substantive as it appeared. I like this for Golden, because I think a mafia-aligned player is more likely to have a specific strategy for "reading" their team mate that they employ through Day 1 (whether that "read" be good, bad, or neutral) -- not one that changes abruptly without need or prompt. It looks like an organic shift to me, which would suggest a non-team mate relationship.

Zebra and HamburgerBoy

Spoiler: show

a2thezebra wrote:
HamburgerBoy wrote:Can people suspecting Ricochet give an example of a game where he was scum and behaved similarly to this one? I hate it when I see a case that goes like "X is a good player, they're playing weird and their posts suck this game, I don't know why they'd be doing this, they must be scum".
I've given reasons why Rico would be playing the way they are multiple times.

1. They're trying to shift the focus of the thread on to them, possibly away from other teammates who would otherwise get too much spotlight.

2. They're hoping by making it look like they're trying to get votes, not enough people will vote for them by the end of the day, or perhaps game.

3. They were feigning supatown to the nth degree in the beginning and have now gone full WIFOM since being called out on it by multiple players.

And Rico's meta is irrelevant since as others have said, Rico has never played this way before as town or mafia. Asking for an example of Rico playing this way as a baddie before this is questionable in its own right. Not only have reasons been given from more than one person voting for Rico as to why they would do this as a baddie, there have also been reasons given as to why them doing this is unlikely to have civilian motivation.

a2thezebra wrote:Everything HBoy has said regarding Rico is leading me to believe he's desperately trying to save his teammate.

a2thezebra wrote:That idea's worth noting, Mac. HamburgerBoy has replaced juliets on my list of the six to potentially be killed by me. Killed. KILLED.

linki - I'm not claiming to know how you play in general, only how you have played recently. Which is not this. Or at least, it wasn't.

linki - stop stop stop lemme post ugh

a2thezebra wrote:
HamburgerBoy wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:That idea's worth noting, Mac. HamburgerBoy has replaced juliets on my list of the six to potentially be killed by me. Killed. KILLED.
Why juliets?
Because she defended herself well, and her defense seemed genuine. You on the other hand, are only making me question your posts' authenticity more and more.

a2thezebra wrote:What's up S~V~S!

I see you lurking there too, HBoy. How's it going?

The second quote in there is probably the most suspicious thing Zebra said in this game. I think it was nonsense to insinuate that any potential mafia team mate of Rico would show up late in Day 1, see a tally in which Rico was a landslide vote leader, and then try to prevent his lynch. With that in mind, I think this is a non-team mate reflection for Burger. Zebra may have been entirely honest in this read, but that'd have to mean Burger is on a different mafia team in Zebra's mindset. We obviously know that Rico and Zebra were not team mates.

Burger's post history has more mentions of "Zebra" than number of posts.

Y'all should just click, search for Zebra, and see for yourself. I don't feel like sifting through this.

I will say that Burger's late arrival turned into a focused effort to interact with Zebra and Golden on the matter of Rico, primarily to dispute their assertions about him. If Burger and Zebra are team mates, then he spent the entirety of Day 1 debating with his team mate. This could promote/perpetuate the Rico distraction, so there is a valid angle there I guess. I think I lean more towards a non-team mate relationship though.

Zebra and Juliets

Spoiler: show

a2thezebra wrote:Boomslang
sig
Long Con
MacDougall
Matt
juliets

a2thezebra wrote:
juliets wrote:Zebra, I would also like to know why I am on your list if you have time right now to tell me. If not now, later would be fine.

I'm still waiting to hear (see) from Lorab before i vote but i'm getting uneasy about the time squeeze.
I'm the least confident about my baddie read of you, but you have made some posts that have stood out to me as waffly in a careful-baddie sort of way. I can't remember who said it but someone said that your posts were just mimicking others' observations and opinions, and that's not my issue because like you said yourself, it isn't alignment-indicative. However, I do think some of your suspicions are "safe" for lack of a better word. You've given me a sense that you're aiming to follow what trains are going to be the most prominent by the end of the day. In other words, following the pack while making it look like you're borderline leading it.

a2thezebra wrote:That idea's worth noting, Mac. HamburgerBoy has replaced juliets on my list of the six to potentially be killed by me. Killed. KILLED.

linki - I'm not claiming to know how you play in general, only how you have played recently. Which is not this. Or at least, it wasn't.

linki - stop stop stop lemme post ugh

a2thezebra wrote:
HamburgerBoy wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:That idea's worth noting, Mac. HamburgerBoy has replaced juliets on my list of the six to potentially be killed by me. Killed. KILLED.
Why juliets?
Because she defended herself well, and her defense seemed genuine. You on the other hand, are only making me question your posts' authenticity more and more.

a2thezebra wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:If there's more than one, which you insinuated yourself, why wouldn't they have names to distinguish them?
How many are there?

Juliets said that I suggested the mafia teams have names and I know what they are. I did not; that was a new idea that juliets put in my mouth.

I would agree that if there are two mafia teams, that they would have distinctive names.
I don't know how many there are.

It may or may not have been the idea that you suggested, but she did not put the idea in your mouth. She understood, as Matt (and I, though not vocally) did as well, that you suggested there are multiple mafia teams. Since you agree that having multiple mafia teams would mean there are distinctive names for each team, then it would go without saying that by suggesting there are multiple teams you are suggesting there are names for them as well. I interpret that this is purely miscommunication; but I find it a bit odd that you actually find it suspicious that juliets would reach that conclusion.

a2thezebra wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:If there's more than one, which you insinuated yourself, why wouldn't they have names to distinguish them?
How many are there?

Juliets said that I suggested the mafia teams have names and I know what they are. I did not; that was a new idea that juliets put in my mouth.

I would agree that if there are two mafia teams, that they would have distinctive names.
I don't know how many there are.

It may or may not have been the idea that you suggested, but she did not put the idea in your mouth. She understood, as Matt (and I, though not vocally) did as well, that you suggested there are multiple mafia teams. Since you agree that having multiple mafia teams would mean there are distinctive names for each team, then it would go without saying that by suggesting there are multiple teams you are suggesting there are names for them as well. I interpret that this is purely miscommunication; but I find it a bit odd that you actually find it suspicious that juliets would reach that conclusion.
Juliets suggested I know what the mafia team names are. To have this knowledge, I would probably have to be mafia. But she didn't seem very convinced considering the suggestion she made.
Convinced that you were mafia? I think she was trying to gauge that without outright accusing you of anything (which, as always, leads to different and often less reliable results) so I still don't see how the suggestion of the teams having names is suspicious in any way.

I'm torn. The second quote here is suspicious in that Zebra was so careful about the wording, or at least it looks that way to me. I can almost see her sitting at her laptop racking her brain for the best approach to describing her suspicion of Juliets. This could indicate that they're team mates and Zebra didn't want to leave damaging bread crumbs. The problem with that theory would be that it'd have clearly failed -- at least Mac and I have already noted a connection and probably others. Another possibility is that Zebra was being careful with Juliets because she wanted to maintain control over the enemy she was potentially making by going after Juliets (a reputed player around here as far as I can tell, this is my first game with her -- excited about that

). In any event, I do see at least some potential for a team mate relationship in that post.

I am also torn on Zebra's willingness to drop Juliets as a suspect and replace her with Burger. If she's the one cliche team mate on her kill list, then she'd be an odd choice for replacement like that. Hmm.

Spoiler: show

juliets wrote:
MacDougall wrote:
How exactly is Zebra confirmed caught, you'll need to refresh my memory on that?

This is a question that occurred to me while reading but I can't find the answer anywhere. Ricco can you answer this please? If you did and i missed it (quite possible due to all the discussion of the Mac/Ricco/Zebra issue) then I apologize but could you please point it out to me? Also, this question was in an answer with a lot of embedded posts so I just snipped down to the question itself.

linki

juliets wrote:Zebra, I would also like to know why I am on your list if you have time right now to tell me. If not now, later would be fine.

I'm still waiting to hear (see) from Lorab before i vote but i'm getting uneasy about the time squeeze.

juliets wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:
juliets wrote:Zebra, I would also like to know why I am on your list if you have time right now to tell me. If not now, later would be fine.

I'm still waiting to hear (see) from Lorab before i vote but i'm getting uneasy about the time squeeze.
I'm the least confident about my baddie read of you, but you have made some posts that have stood out to me as waffly in a careful-baddie sort of way. I can't remember who said it but someone said that your posts were just mimicking others' observations and opinions, and that's not my issue because like you said yourself, it isn't alignment-indicative. However, I do think some of your suspicions are "safe" for lack of a better word. You've given me a sense that you're aiming to follow what trains are going to be the most prominent by the end of the day. In other words, following the pack while making it look like you're borderline leading it.
I understand what you are saying here. At the beginning of games regardless of my affiliation I am not very confident about lynching people. Some people are comfortable with that ambiguity but I am not. Therefore I come off as always following. As the game goes on I become more confident and i think you will see a change in my demeanor (if I make it that far). I will do my best to expose myself more earlier in the game than normal for me regardless of the consequences. Usually that comes out in the form of questions, one of which I've already asked and it hasn't been answered. My questions tell you where I am suspicious.

Thanks for your answer to my question.

juliets wrote:I just caught up and am glad to see Lorab's responses in the thread. Rico, Lorab did indeed address me because she addressed Epi and Sorsha's concerns and my concerns were based on issues that they had brought up. I'm not quite sure why you didn't understand that.

Anyway, unlike Sorsha and BR I found Lorabs points to be clear and concise and she has persuaded me not to vote for her tonight. I'll keep an eye open for any future behavior but I am currently satisfied she is not bad. This does not mean however that I am suspicious of Sorsha or BR.

So now I have to decide who to vote. Metalmarsh comes to mind because I have twice asked him a question about why he used the word "which" in his question to JJJ re: "which team do you thin he is on". I have been ignored both times. MM has not even acknowledged I posted a question to him. This makes me think he doesn't want to answer because the only reason you would phrase the question as "which team" is if you had team names in mind. What kind of answer did he expect out of JJJ? What's an example? Those were the questions I asked. Without any response from him after asking twice I think it was a total slip. Now maybe MM can convince me differently and I wish he would try because maybe there is some explanation that I'm not thinking of. Also, if anyone has a strong point they want to bring out in MM's favor for me to consider please do so.

I'm also going to take the time now to re-read Rico. Mac's observations kept me from suspecting him earlier but so much has happened since Mac made those comments that I'm feeling like I'm possibly not weighing the evidence appropriately. Maybe Rico is the place to vote, zebra's points about him have been strong. Since i don't have a lot of time (I would have started the re-read this morning had I been able) i would say I lean more toward MM

Ok I'm going to go ahead and start re-reading. I plan on keeping up with the thread while I so so.

juliets wrote:i am out of time basically and need to vote. Metalmarsh, I saw you said you must have missed my posts. I'm going to give you the BOTD and give you another opportunity to answer me. I'll even did out the original question for you so it will be easier than you going back to look for it (did I ever tell you i got lynched for being too nice one time?).

This leaves Rico. I understand and believed in what Mac has been saying but the sheer overload of Rico throwing out things that are ridiculous (for example, zebra and bc24 posting near each other) and then trying to call them cases, and making comments that dont even need to be made just to remind people he thinks someone is bad (some directed at me) convinces me that the right vote is for Rico today. In addition, the fact that as far as anyone can remember Rico hasn't behaved like this before causes me to be suspicious that his overwhelming posting was meant to chill the room so not many people could actively participate. I know I had a lot of trouble keeping up and one glance at the posts tells you why. So, I'm voting for Rico today, we'll see how it goes.

Metalmarsh, gone to find your quote next.

juliets wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
juliets wrote:Metalmarsh here is the question I asked you. Note that I am not asking the same questions you already answered. I'm wanting to know what was in your head when you picked the word "which" when you framed the question.

juliets wrote:MM, your question to him was "which team do you think he is on?". That sounds like you not only know there are two teams (i know you responded to this already) but that you knew what the team names were. What made you use the word "which"? And what did you expect in return from JJJ that would be an example of "which"? I hope you understand what I am asking. If not, let me know.
Sorry I never responded juliets. I've been playing much of this game so far on my phone, and just must be missing posts.

Anyway, to answer your questions.
1) I have no idea how many teams there are. That was an intentional "slip" to see how folks responded.
2) I did not know that the mafia team(s) have names. Your suggestion of that is very suspicious imo. I did not imply that I knew it either.
3) I expected Jay to be far more aggressive in his response, since the number of mafia teams is unknown, and I implied that I knew how many there were. Then again, Jay was acting apathetic before I asked the question, so I don't know what to make of it. Different Jay =/= mafia Jay.
And to add, Matt did propose the same case that you did, that I slipped, and must be mafia. But he took a pretty hesitant approach to it. The Matt I remember from Talking Heads would have dogged me all day and all game over something like that.

Juliets, where did you get the idea that the mafia team(s) have names?
I've never played a game where the mafia teams haven't had names. It just made sense that since you were indicating you thought there was more than one team you also thought the teams would have names. I think you admitted to this during the discussion that has taken place.

zebra and DH have hit precisely on my reasons for asking you the question so i don't feel we need to rehash that. Thanks to the two of you for reading my mind while I wasn't here. I do think the root of the miscommunication here is that you asked the question to see what reactions there were to the question, not to get a specific answer to the "which" question. You didn't expect a response to the question. (That's a little hard for me to understand but I take you at your word). I, on the other hand, read the question as one where you were looking for a specific answer and didn't understand how someone could be expected to answer a "which" question without knowledge of names of the parties from which he would choose. I wouldn't have asked the question if I had realized you were just looking for reactions about the question.

The only thing I can't understand is why you think I'm suspicious for asking the question. As games go on I ask lots of questions. Some of them represent misunderstanding which sounds like the case here. Thats why I ask, to cull out those issues and get to the real issues.

If you feel we need further discussion about this just let me know.

As far as the vote goes for today, I think I'll vote for spider monkey. I have no idea who that could be and we don't even know if the person attached to it receives something good, something bad, or nothing at all. We don't even know for sure if someone is attached to animal. So Spider monkey it is.

I think the second and third quotes here are the most important. If we can judge whether Juliets was sincere in her efforts to engage Zebra on her suspicions and then to explain herself so that she could be understood, then we can assert a relationship or lack thereof with some degree of confidence. On the surface, I do think Juliets looks pretty sincere. I am not sure if it's that her diction is agreeable, the way she writes makes sense to my brain and I think that might make her a blind spot long term.

I like the way she describes the value her questions pose in her Mafia process, it reminds me of my own explanations in many games past when people have sought to understand my habit of asking a bunch of questions. Personal bias alert.

I'd like to hear from others on this one, especially Mac who seemed to have come to a stronger conclusion than I have. I see potential for a team mate relationship if I am specifically trying to find one.

#1873

DrWilgy wrote:Hi Sig

Hi Wilgy

#1874

JJJ how ironic that while you were reading mine and Zebra's interactions I was reading your posts to get a better handle on your suspicion of llama. I saw your case from Day 0 and then of course I saw all your references to him being bad during your curse where you couldn't articulate reasons, but the reasons I see for you to think he is bad don't seem as strong as your assertations that he is bad. Does that make sense? Consequently, I think I've missed some of your reasoning somehow and it would be helpful to me and maybe others if you just did a quick bullet point post on why you are convinced he is bad. Thanks in advance.

Oh and I don't see anything you want me to comment on regarding your comments about mine and zebra's relationship but I will say I think you read me better than Mac and what you think might be bias is just an understanding of a particular style. If you would like me to answer any questions I am glad to do so.

#1875

juliets wrote:JJJ how ironic that while you were reading mine and Zebra's interactions I was reading your posts to get a better handle on your suspicion of llama. I saw your case from Day 0 and then of course I saw all your references to him being bad during your curse where you couldn't articulate reasons, but the reasons I see for you to think he is bad don't seem as strong as your assertations that he is bad. Does that make sense? Consequently, I think I've missed some of your reasoning somehow and it would be helpful to me and maybe others if you just did a quick bullet point post on why you are convinced he is bad. Thanks in advance.

In truth I am not convinced he is bad. He was my biggest suspect on Day 1, but we're onto a new day now and I don't know where my analyses will take me. If I remain suspicious of llama at the end of it all, I'll definitely voice the reasons why as clearly as I can.

juliets wrote:Oh and I don't see anything you want me to comment on regarding your comments about mine and zebra's relationship but I will say I think you read me better than Mac and what you think might be bias is just an understanding of a particular style. If you would like me to answer any questions I am glad to do so.

I do have one question. Do you have any idea how many times or how frequently you have played in games with Zebra? She used to be known as "Keterman". An answer to this might help me to gauge her careful treatment of you when she was explaining her suspicions.

#1876

Hey peeps. Sorry I haven't been around much, this thread has been going at a rapid pace and it's hard to catch up after work. I do have three days off this coming week starting Tuesday, though, so yay.

Rih Zeebs.

I disagree with 3J and think we should look at Draconus next. In the signup thread, SVS said there were up to 60 roles, so when it came down to cutting thirty of them, she and Turnip decided to keep TWO curse roles?

Eff that, lynch that Drac!

#1877

Jimmy, I am terrible at how many games I've played with some one but I can tell you I barely remember Ketterman so it was not many and remember nothing about her meta. I always thought Ketterman was a male. As for zebra, I think I've played a couple of games with her but don't remember any interactions with her. I don't have enough experience with her to know her meta either. All in all, we don't have much experience with each other.

Also thanks for the answer on llama. I will look forward to your comments and whether you still see him as a viable suspicion.

#1878

Juliets, Keterman was a male, I believe. *snicker*

#1879

Wait - I though Jimmy just told me Keterman was zebra's old name. I'll look at JJJ's post again.

I'm taking some time away from the thread to watch some football. I'll check in a couple of times i hope during the games.

#1880

juliets wrote:Wait - I though Jimmy just told me Keterman was zebra's old name. I'll look at JJJ's post again.

I'm taking some time away from the thread to watch some football. I'll check in a couple of times i hope during the games.

I feel like there have been enough games where people go "He? She?" in regards to Zebra, that Juliets' confuzzlement looks fake and I think they could be teamies.

#1881

Matt wrote:Hey peeps. Sorry I haven't been around much, this thread has been going at a rapid pace and it's hard to catch up after work. I do have three days off this coming week starting Tuesday, though, so yay.

Rih Zeebs.

I disagree with 3J and think we should look at Draconus next. In the signup thread, SVS said there were up to 60 roles, so when it came down to cutting thirty of them, she and Turnip decided to keep TWO curse roles?

Eff that, lynch that Drac!

Could be. I do observe that Draconus's first question of Day 1 came well after it was established that I had my emoji curse. So it's plausible that he saw that, had the idea to "be cursed" himself, and run with it.

I will also note though that I have never seen someone fake a posting restriction as a bad guy before. The only faker I've ever seen to my memory is G-Man in Economics Mafia, and he was just a bored townie. I think it's possible that Draconus faked it, but I don't really know that it's logical to assume he faked it. If there are two mafia teams, then parallel cursing roles don't sound outlandish to me.

#1882

juliets wrote:Wait - I though Jimmy just told me Keterman was zebra's old name. I'll look at JJJ's post again.

I'm taking some time away from the thread to watch some football. I'll check in a couple of times i hope during the games.

They're the same person. Zebra identifies as a girl.

#1883

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
juliets wrote:Wait - I though Jimmy just told me Keterman was zebra's old name. I'll look at JJJ's post again.

I'm taking some time away from the thread to watch some football. I'll check in a couple of times i hope during the games.
They're the same person. Zebra identifies as a girl.

So you think Juliets was really confuzzled and not faking said confuzzlement?

#1884

Matt wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
juliets wrote:Wait - I though Jimmy just told me Keterman was zebra's old name. I'll look at JJJ's post again.

I'm taking some time away from the thread to watch some football. I'll check in a couple of times i hope during the games.
They're the same person. Zebra identifies as a girl.
So you think Juliets was really confuzzled and not faking said confuzzlement?

Yes.

#1885

#1886

Zebra and Long Con

Spoiler: show

a2thezebra wrote:
bcornett24 wrote:
Long Con wrote:
MacDougall wrote:
Long Con wrote:
MacDougall wrote:
Long Con wrote:What I'm seeing here is, on the surface, a possible Boomslang-Tranq baddie teamup. That's just surface though, and I don't really think that's what's going on here.

However, my ideal civ-mindset would hold back and wait to see if anyone jumps on Tranq opportunistically, rather than defuse the situation with some textbook "let's not get too finger-pointy" sanity. Short-term "obvious Civ" statements can be long-term "don't worry about me, I'm cooler than being cool" baddie groundwork.
Weird post. Do not like.
What, were there "too many quotes" for your taste?
No, sorry I was agreeing with you. I was referring to Boomslang's post.
Phew! I thought I dun got meself lynched Day 1 already!
What is with this exchange?

Long Con, why even mention this?
Each one of Long Con's posts within this quote box raises an eyebrow.

a2thezebra wrote:
Long Con wrote:
a2thezebra wrote: Each one of Long Con's posts within this quote box raises an eyebrow.
Jesus, how many eyebrows do you HAVE?
Far too many, I'm afraid.

a2thezebra wrote:
Long Con wrote:Oh. Well, that is pretty crappy for those of us whose speakers are currently dead... or for people on phones with no headphones... or for people playing in church... or about a thousand other reasons why listening to audio can complicate things for people.

a2thezebra wrote:
Long Con wrote:
Golden wrote:
Ricochet wrote:"Your interpretation of LoRab's theory wasn't right, but it was reasonable."

Pretty hollow contribution to this subject.
No. You, me and Mac all came out of LoRab's posts with different interpretations. The difference being, you have treated both Mac and my theories as simply 'wrong' and in Mac's case, dismissed clear points and reasonable questions just because you decided your interpretation was right.

The one thing Mac made very clear from the second he interpreted LoRab's post was that he himself did not have a role he had before, so how you could twist that into him claiming he had a role he had before, and say he was losing his green lustre because (why? Hasn't Mac only won the one game? So under that theory, wouldn't it HAVE to be Idaho?)

To me it feels like you are just throwing nonsense out there to see what sticks.
Is that a suspicion, or a belief that it's a Civ strategy? I agree, but I haven't decided yet which. What will his behaviour achieve?
I agree, and I think it's the former for reasons stated previously. They're not gauging reactions, because if they were then they wouldn't twist everyone's words as much as they have been. And what other town-motivated reason could there be for WIFOM other than to gauge reactions?

a2thezebra wrote:
Long Con wrote:Also, Zebra, that's another time you have made an assertion that I don't see how you could know. About curse roles.
Excuse me? What was the first time?

a2thezebra wrote:Boomslang
sig
Long Con
MacDougall
Matt
juliets

a2thezebra wrote:
Long Con wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:
Long Con wrote:Also, Zebra, that's another time you have made an assertion that I don't see how you could know. About curse roles.
Excuse me? What was the first time?
Hmmm... never mind, I think I was confused. It might be in the other game I'm in, please pardon me. Why am I on your list?
You're pardoned...but not from my suspicion! DUN DUN DUUUUUUUUUUN

I suspect you for reasons that others (notably Mac) have pointed out regarding this post:
Long Con wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Boomslang wrote:Tranq's slip of calling Finn McMissile mafia (the role was part of a second civ team) is too easily fact-checkable to be intentional, imo.
It wasn't a slip. It was Tranq being a nub. Hence my opening post.
What I'm seeing here is, on the surface, a possible Boomslang-Tranq baddie teamup. That's just surface though, and I don't really think that's what's going on here.

However, my ideal civ-mindset would hold back and wait to see if anyone jumps on Tranq opportunistically, rather than defuse the situation with some textbook "let's not get too finger-pointy" sanity. Short-term "obvious Civ" statements can be long-term "don't worry about me, I'm cooler than being cool" baddie groundwork.
...and I think your other posts in general have come across as disingenuous.

a2thezebra wrote:
Long Con wrote:
Long Con from the current Heist game 'LOST Again' wrote:How do you KNOW that one of the two Day 1 lynch guys was bad, Zebra?
That's what I was thinking of, Z. Just mixing up my questioning of you in two separate games.
Ah, makes sense.

linki - Que?

The jokey eyebrow exchange in the early bit here was a minor ping at first sight. I do think though that Zebra appears to be hunting for mafia in her subsequent posts (primarily the second-last) in which she casts suspicion on LC. I say this because I agree with her perspective of that LC content, I don't struggle to see this as coming from a genuine Zebra mindset. That would suggest a non-team mate relationship though, so if the suspicion is valid it'd mean LC is on a different mafia team.

Spoiler: show

I think the last of these quotes is rather telling. That LC genuinely confused his perspective of Zebra in this matter with something in a separate game (and I suggest it is genuine because I think he did very well to provide the evidence of his goof and it is believable) suggests to me that he was truly in a mindset of getting a read on Zebra and investigating a real ping. I don't think this mix-up is as likely if they're team mates.

Zebra and LoRab

Spoiler: show

There's very little here, which makes the second post interesting. Zebra was obviously a huge proponent of the Rico lynch from the word "go", so any remotely relevant counterwagon was likely to earn her ire. This is strongly worded though, and I'm not sure what it says about the two names mentioned. Neither of those wagons was ever likely to develop into an actual lynch though, so it's hard to say whether Zebra was pre-emptively capitalizing on a town flip for either of them (or at least a flip from a team other than Zebra's own) -- because those flips weren't actually going to happen on Day 1.

LoRab made no mention of Zebra at all prior to her death. That's surprising. Her posts are largely focused on defending her own twirling honor and questioning Rico's nonsense. I could see this as a team mate relationship, though it doesn't scream it. Nothing really has to this point actually.

Zebra and MacDougall

This spoiler is very large:

Spoiler: show

a2thezebra wrote:
MacDougall wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:I get a rush of energy when I elaborate on what I believe to be opportunistic behavior. If you've seen me in any game ever for even a day, you know this. Doesn't mean I'm good, but it also doesn't mean you rustled anyone's jimmies. Get off your high horse. Nice continued lack of defense to a legitimate and shared suspicion by the way.
Surely you wouldn't be this adversarial off the bat if there wasn't an underlying intention. You are posting like a parody of yourself right now.
Dios mio, a warranted suspicion! You're still wrong however, quite often I am adversarial off the bat. In fact if I'm a parody of myself right now then I'm a parody of myself in every game I've ever played. Which might very well be the truth.

a2thezebra wrote:
MacDougall wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:
MacDougall wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:I get a rush of energy when I elaborate on what I believe to be opportunistic behavior. If you've seen me in any game ever for even a day, you know this. Doesn't mean I'm good, but it also doesn't mean you rustled anyone's jimmies. Get off your high horse. Nice continued lack of defense to a legitimate and shared suspicion by the way.
Surely you wouldn't be this adversarial off the bat if there wasn't an underlying intention. You are posting like a parody of yourself right now.
Dios mio, a warranted suspicion! You're still wrong however, quite often I am adversarial off the bat. In fact if I'm a parody of myself right now then I'm a parody of myself in every game I've ever played. Which might very well be the truth.
You have not disputed my point. My question is whether you'd be so adversarial without having an underlying intention. My inference is that you and Rico are staging this debate.

I don't recall you being this immediately adversarial in Dune, or in Tree, or in West Wing. Where you waded into the game with a lot more jokes and a lot nicer outlook initially. Here you are down to business very fast. How far are we away from a Star Wars style Zebra ISO of every single player before half of them have made more than 1 post?
I kind of did dispute your point though, because if I'm this adversarial in every game where I have an underlying intention or not, then this game is no different. I see you still think this is unusual for me, so if your suspicion of me is strictly meta-based then my defense can only be meta-based as well. I'm nice until I see a reason not to be nice, that's it. It might not happen until Day 25, or in the more frequent cases, it happens before Day 2. In this case it's before Day 1.

a2thezebra wrote:
MacDougall wrote:Note: Zebra and Ricochet stopped fighting as soon as I pointed out that I think they are faking it.
Would you like us to continue, master?

Large post

a2thezebra wrote:
MacDougall wrote: I'd like to grind this negative interaction to a halt because I'm a little bit over 200 post arguments with people I actually don't have scum reads on (see Golden vs. Mac, Star Wars). I've seen enough out of you to change my tune.
Works for me, but I have to address this:

MacDougall wrote:Post lots and you'll live longer.
For you, and for many people, this is true to an extent. For me, helllllll no. I got as far as I did in Star Wars by the skin of my teeth and a shit-ton of luck. When I speak my mind and play a strictly genuine game - regardless of my alignment - you can guarantee that I will be lynched (not night-killed, LYNCHED) by Day 3. So I don't do that anymore - regardless of my alignment. People think my observations and conclusions are either too strange to be town-motivated or outright fake. They just do. So my mafia persona has incorporated much more deceit and much more manipulation then when I started out. For me, this is a necessity to survive. I NEVER coast, because I simply can't. It's not in me to be a minimal poster, I'm not synchronized with everyone else enough to state my mind 24/7, and I can't even coast with sheer posting magnitude because even when I keep certain things from others there's still enough posts where someone will call me out on something by reading it the wrong way. Even when I AM bad I'm more often than not read as bad for incorrect reasons, such as misinterpreting my intentions or thinking that my activity is effected by my alignment when it literally never is. That makes the game fun and challenging for me, but I have never coasted in any game ever.

a2thezebra wrote:
Ricochet wrote:I don't think LoRab is bad and I don't recall Mac saying anything about it during this phase.
I'm sorry, what?

linki - Oh boy

a2thezebra wrote:
MacDougall wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:I can't believe Rico's strategy of making everyone think they're trying to get everyone to vote for them so no one will ultimately vote for them is starting to actually work.
I am happy to have a crack at lynching Rico, but just let it be known that I don't think it'll work.
Why?

a2thezebra wrote:Your tone/rhetoric is unnervingly subdued so far, Mac. Where's the shit-flinging and Broadway charisma?

a2thezebra wrote:
MacDougall wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:I'm not missing the aggression, but I am missing the all-over-the-place theorizing and speculation about what's going on. With as much that's happened so early in the game, you've only strongly considered a select few possibilities.

linki - rued
I've considered and made judgements on more players than anyone except Ricochet. It's like middle of day 1, what I think you are describing is something that I do further into the game.
That's a good point. I still have post-dead-Zebra Star Wars lingering in my brain.

a2thezebra wrote:Boomslang
sig
Long Con
MacDougall
Matt
juliets

a2thezebra wrote:Haha, Mac got two right and Golden got none right.

a2thezebra wrote:
MacDougall wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:Boomslang
sig
Long Con
MacDougall
Matt
juliets
You haven't even made mention of some of these players so I'm not sure how we were supposed to guess.

Also I share suspicion of your main two suspects for what it's worth.
That's what makes it a guess? And good to know.

a2thezebra wrote:
MacDougall wrote:
Golden wrote:Well, I mean, I was just assuming I had some basis on which to work with, but I didn't really.

If I was taking it seriously, I would have guessed Matt was in there (given your approach to his MM suspicion), and I was 50/50 on what your view was on LC. I wouldn't have gotten the others, though.
It looks pretty arbitrary does it not?

I'm not convinced she didn't just pick some of those names right then and there.

I'm not sure Zebra is the sort of player who has suspicions of players for as long as she apparently has had here without engaging them or even mentioning it.
Normally, you'd be correct. But at the moment, and at the start of the day when I declared the six other potential candidates, I still have Ricochet as by far and away my top suspicion, and since you and some others are hesitant about lynching him, I am/was reluctant to share my other suspicions directly because I don't want the day to result in a wild goose chase when I think we've got a clear baddie target that we can focus on. Make no mistake, I do want discussion, I just feel it necessary to demonstrate that Rico is by far and away the top of my kill list mothafucka.

a2thezebra wrote:I was just going to say that if anyone should be suspicious of Mac it's because he's not being Rico-y enough, but I see he beat me to it.

a2thezebra wrote:Overcompensating for your previous lack of aggression until I pointed it out eh Mac?

a2thezebra wrote:
MacDougall wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:Thanks Ricochet.

Golden and I seem to be on a very similar wavelength so far this game, I can dig it.
This post sounds eerily familiar to something Bib Fortuna would have posted.
I don't buy that you actually think this.

Tranq wrote:I'm not sure what to make of a2thezebra posting a 13 minute video 19 minutes before the poll ends. I'm over halfway through the clip atm, but without having seen it till the end i don't feel like i can make an informed decision.
That's six minutes to decide whose argument is better.

a2thezebra wrote:
MacDougall wrote:
MacDougall wrote:The fact that Ricochet has self voted makes me feel like he's probably going to get lynched. I remember that part of my role said I couldn't self vote.

If he's civilian I'll be pleasantly surprised. My bet is on indie.
Hahahahaha. Fuck my life. I meant scum.
Okay never mind whew Jesus

a2thezebra wrote:
MacDougall wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:
MacDougall wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:Thanks Ricochet.

Golden and I seem to be on a very similar wavelength so far this game, I can dig it.
This post sounds eerily familiar to something Bib Fortuna would have posted.
I don't buy that you actually think this.

Tranq wrote:I'm not sure what to make of a2thezebra posting a 13 minute video 19 minutes before the poll ends. I'm over halfway through the clip atm, but without having seen it till the end i don't feel like i can make an informed decision.
That's six minutes to decide whose argument is better.
Why the fuck wouldn't I you spent lots of energy as a scum buddying Golden in Star Wars. I was arguing with him while you were doing it.
That was genuine. It was irrelevant to my alignment. Being a scum in that game watching two (almost assuredly from my POV) civs going at it bordering on personal was just exhausting and infuriating. You were leading that conflict so I went after you. Deal with it.

MacDougall wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:
MacDougall wrote:
MacDougall wrote:The fact that Ricochet has self voted makes me feel like he's probably going to get lynched. I remember that part of my role said I couldn't self vote.

If he's civilian I'll be pleasantly surprised. My bet is on indie.
Hahahahaha. Fuck my life. I meant scum.
Okay never mind whew Jesus
Fuck off.
Yup, this is definitely compensation for your lack of aggressiveness before I called you out on it. No question.

a2thezebra wrote:
MacDougall wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:I disagree that it would be deserved in either case, and either way I still think you would be compensating.
You have literally angered me to the point where I am swearing at you but you're going to just say I am faking it. You are baiting the shit out of me right now and you know it.
I didn't say you were outright faking it, only that you were compensating. A kind of flanderization of yourself; your genuine reaction, yet amplified up to eleven.

linki -

MacDougall wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
MacDougall wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:
MacDougall wrote:Just so you know, this is what it would have sounded like.

If you think I'm actually going to listen to that with other people in the room then you're kidding yourself. Also...if you think I'm baiting you just because I've somehow angered you enough to start swearing at me, then again...you're kidding yourself. Does that mean every other player in Star Wars was baiting you all the time as well? Here's a crazy thought...maybe you get angered relatively easily.
I thought I was pretending to be angry.

The vocaroo post is tongue in cheek Zebra lol. Also how am I supposed to know you have other people in the room. Lighten up.
You're angry, but you're telling zebra to 'lighten up'?
For fucks sake. Let me spell it out.

Zebra annoyed me with a post. It manifested in a "fuck you" post. On account of not being a psychopath who sits behind their computer screen seething over forums mafia my frustration dissipated pretty well immediately. I made the vocaroo post to be funny and Zebra replied to it with an annoying amount of seriousness.

Ya dig?

I'm out. It's Saturday and I should take my kid to the park or something.

a2thezebra wrote:
MacDougall wrote:On account of not being a psychopath who sits behind their computer screen seething over forums mafia my frustration dissipated pretty well immediately.
Doth protest too much methinks... :P

Also, my response wasn't exactly deathly serious.

There's obviously a ton of content here, just on the Zebra-to-Mac side. The sheer volume might be a non-team mate indication for Mac, because it simply a lot of posts for these two to have made if they were made in concert. That'd be some dedication to the distancing craft for sure. However, there are some moments that make me wonder if their criticisms of one another are fake (ironically given that Mac at one point suggested Zebra and Rico were faking it). On a few occasions they cast suspicion upon one another for reasons that I'd call dubious. I'll list them in bullets:

- Mac suggested Zebra was being more immediately adversarial than normal. In my experience playing with Zebra, her being immediately adversarial is the norm. I didn't play in two of the games Mac referenced (Star Wars and West Wing), but I did play in Trees. I guess she was a bit more subdued then, but I'd still assert she was adversarial. I think I recognize this as a component of her style because on numerous occasions now that immediately adversarial behavior has been directed at me. :P

- Zebra kind of turned the same accusation against Mac, suggesting he wasn't displaying his typical "shit-flinging, Broadway charisma". Mac's heavy involvement in this game so far seems less than "subdued" to me. Maybe he hasn't "flung shit", but he has certainly made cases and accusations of numerous players.

- Zebra asserted Mac could be viewed as suspicious because he isn't being "enough like Rico" in this game. Mac didn't like this accusation and I think it was an inaccurate representation of Mac's styles.

If I'm not sure their accusations of each other are grounded in reality, then that leaves room for them to be fake. In a game that seems likely to feature multiple mafia teams, fake accusations would be good indicators of a team mate relationship.

Most of Mac's content about Rico is covered above. Here's a little extra.

Spoiler: show

Mac's read on Zebra seems to change pretty quickly. She was one of his six positive reads, but soon after his tune changed. I usually like it when people are willing to change their mind on a dime. Forced consistency is the mark of a mafioso, so this is nice for Mac, or at least non-team mate indicative.

I'll also touch on the more volatile material in which things got a little personal. For some reason I find myself doubting the notion that Mac would stage something like that -- obviously he's an aggressive player and will do whatever he must to win, but I do think he has limits and he respects the game of Mafia. I'll allow Mac to talk about the bulleted points I listed earlier and my suspicions on that front before I come to a final conclusion.

Zebra and Matt

Spoiler: show

Arbitrary suspicion. Zebra might have been capitalizing on Matt's low post count since everyone knows he is usually quite active. It's an easy accusation.

Matt's posts don't have much to say about Zebra while she's alive. I would call this mostly inconclusive due to lack of content. The only note I took was slightly positive, so neat.

#1887

Not finding enough suspects right now. Nice work Zebra.

#1888

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Not finding enough suspects right now. Nice work Zebra.

I told you. Very little real content!

#1889

I think Long Con looks somewhat worse in the JJ/LC exchange. JJ saying he couldn't make any case at all could be read as disingenuous, but I think he is right that he couldn't do much beyond saying he thought llama was bad and might have been responsible for his curse.

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Long Con wrote:I think, especially in a Champions Game, a baddie curser role on the first night would not target someone who they want to silence.
Why does it matter at all that this is a champions game? That's irrelevant.

I don't understand LC's point here... is he saying it is more likely that on night one of a champions game a baddie curser would curse a teammate? Like, they wouldn't want to use their ability on someone they genuinely want to curse? That seems to be very odd logic to me. The only reason I can see a baddie curser role cursing their own teammate is for some perceived advantage they get out of it (which I think is, at least, plausible - the desired advantage being JJJ looking townier), not because 'I want to curse others later', and the mindset behind this part of LC's post doesn't quite scan for me.

#1890

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Long Con wrote:JJJ, like HamburgerBoy already pointed out, despite the fact that you couldn't talk, you managed to easily convey that you believed Llama cursed you, and why you believed he cursed you. Saying "I couldn't bloody talk" is disingenuous.
I don't think I was able to convey why I felt he might be connected to the curse (again, I already clarified that I didn't think it had to be llama that cursed me). Nobody picked up on it at all until the end of Day 1 when Burger showed up. Golden came close, but he still didn't quite read into what I was trying to say.

Were the cars = curse?

that has been bugging me for days.

#1891

Golden wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Long Con wrote:JJJ, like HamburgerBoy already pointed out, despite the fact that you couldn't talk, you managed to easily convey that you believed Llama cursed you, and why you believed he cursed you. Saying "I couldn't bloody talk" is disingenuous.
I don't think I was able to convey why I felt he might be connected to the curse (again, I already clarified that I didn't think it had to be llama that cursed me). Nobody picked up on it at all until the end of Day 1 when Burger showed up. Golden came close, but he still didn't quite read into what I was trying to say.
Were the cars = curse?

that has been bugging me for days.

They were nothing but a dividing line -- me trying to separate two parts of a thought. It was a dumb method, obviously everyone thought the cars meant something. :P

#1892

@Jay - a big part of the reason juliets has such a good reputation is that her style is inscrutable. It's very difficult to discern any difference in her posting from town-aligned to baddie-aligned.

I need to head to work now so haven't quite examined the potential link between her and zebra yet, but I will and I'll weigh in. But before doing that, juliets has done nothing in particular that pings me. I wouldn't say her posting style (that some people see as 'waffly' but I agree with you in thinking it is simply her fully expressing her thought processes, something that I also do) is specifically alignment-indicative.

#1893

Zebra and Metalmarsh89

Spoiler: show

a2thezebra wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:To be fair, I think I have only ever voted for you once, and that was in a game where I was bad, and it was still a joke vote on Day 1.

So I can wash my hands of this.
This is true. I'm not trying to implicate anyone besides myself as the cause for my frequent early lynchings, apologies if I gave off a different impression.

linki - Haha, I didn't even bother to check that. All I knew was that even if it were true, it's not alignment-indicative regardless.

a2thezebra wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
You know what's interesting about this whole thing?

1) The post Ricochet was talking about wasn't even your first post of the game. This one was.
2) Matt posted far closer to you in terms of time frame, but Ricochet never mentions Matt.
After clicking these links to verify, I think you got the first two switched. But you are correct, the one near bcorn's is not the first. I even "buddied" Rico before the post that he claims to be my first.

a2thezebra wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:I posted "this is madness" because I had yet to catch up with the thread at that time but I still wanted to make my presence known.

Yes, you posted that because you had yet to catch up and wanted to make your presence known.

b24 also posted because he had yet to catch up and wanted to make your presence known.

It's called teamie coordination.
zeebz: Hey brian, let's go catch up on the mafia game.

brians: OK zeebz, I'm not caught up either (but posting in BTSC anyway).

zeebz: I have a great idea, let's state our intent to catch up before we do it.

brians: Good plan, you go first, I'll follow up in exactly 22 minutes and 17 seconds later.

zeebz: Fist bump broh!
SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIT THAT'S LINE-FOR-LINE WHAT HAPPENED

a2thezebra wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:Turnip Head
Echoed.

Turnip Head
Epi's next on the chopping block, he posted RIGHT AFTER TURNIP HEAD DID!!!!!!!!!11!!1!!1!!!

a2thezebra wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:Turnip Head
Echoed.

Turnip Head
Epi's next on the chopping block, he posted RIGHT AFTER TURNIP HEAD DID!!!!!!!!!11!!1!!1!!!
Omg, you posted after Epignosis did!

You're going down Day 3.
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah booooo hooooooo booo hooo hoooooooooooooooo

linki - Oh? Why not? U BAD BRUH??? U HIS TEAMMATE BURH

a2thezebra wrote:I think MM is just being WIFOMy. I don't suspect him for it thought because for one, he's MM, and two, he's not trying to hog all the attention in the thread unlike my current vote.

a2thezebra wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:If Rico REALLY wanted to be lynched then they wouldn't go about it the way they are. They would be more subtle. Getting lynched on Day 1 does not require a performance like the one Rico has given. Just say this or that and/or come off as disingenuous with a few actions and rest assured you will get lynched on Day 1. This is WAY more than that, it's unnecessary.
But if that is his goal, it has been effective.
True, but it has also brought up suspicion from you, Mac, and others that perhaps he is deliberately trying to get lynched - and there's a possibility that if enough people listen to you, someone else will get lynched before the day ends. He could have (and would have) easily gotten lynched today without arousing that particular suspicion had he been more subtle.

a2thezebra wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:If Rico REALLY wanted to be lynched then they wouldn't go about it the way they are. They would be more subtle. Getting lynched on Day 1 does not require a performance like the one Rico has given. Just say this or that and/or come off as disingenuous with a few actions and rest assured you will get lynched on Day 1. This is WAY more than that, it's unnecessary.
But if that is his goal, it has been effective.
True, but it has also brought up suspicion from you, Mac, and others that perhaps he is deliberately trying to get lynched - and there's a possibility that if enough people listen to you, someone else will get lynched before the day ends. He could have (and would have) easily gotten lynched today without arousing that particular suspicion had he been more subtle.
I don't know if that would work in an epic game like this with so many players and unknown alignments. I think one has to be bold and stand out.

Do you think Ricochet is trying to accomplish something else?

Linki: Thanks Matt.
You have a point DAMMITTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

I got nothing. You're right. He's trying to get lynched. Fuck me sideways, I'm convinced.

Boomslang

a2thezebra wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:CFD JaggedCrypticJay
lol

a2thezebra wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Told you he wanted to be lynched zebra.
Don't forget that you did convince me before the day was over that this was true, and I even changed my vote for less than half a minute.

I do still stand by that lynching Rico was the right way to go. Golden makes a good point that if a civ wants to be lynched, they should get what they want nine times out of ten.

a2thezebra wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:If there's more than one, which you insinuated yourself, why wouldn't they have names to distinguish them?
How many are there?

Juliets said that I suggested the mafia teams have names and I know what they are. I did not; that was a new idea that juliets put in my mouth.

I would agree that if there are two mafia teams, that they would have distinctive names.
I don't know how many there are.

It may or may not have been the idea that you suggested, but she did not put the idea in your mouth. She understood, as Matt (and I, though not vocally) did as well, that you suggested there are multiple mafia teams. Since you agree that having multiple mafia teams would mean there are distinctive names for each team, then it would go without saying that by suggesting there are multiple teams you are suggesting there are names for them as well. I interpret that this is purely miscommunication; but I find it a bit odd that you actually find it suspicious that juliets would reach that conclusion.

a2thezebra wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Turnip Head wrote:Ricochet has been lynched. He was Jacob Donner, a civilian.

If Jacob Donner is lynched on Day 1, he will die, revealing his full role. If this occurs, Donner may continue to post on-topic as if he were alive, but he cannot vote and cannot be targeted by any abilities or items.

I don't see why this is so hard for everyone. He's not an unkillable role, he's dead. Yeah, it's great that Rico can still help out with analysis, but we lost a civ vote, and our numbers are one fewer versus the mafia. Forgive me for not celebrating.
Would you prefer to have his vote and no knowledge of his alignment?

I wouldn't.
Nor would I.

a2thezebra wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:If there's more than one, which you insinuated yourself, why wouldn't they have names to distinguish them?
How many are there?

Juliets said that I suggested the mafia teams have names and I know what they are. I did not; that was a new idea that juliets put in my mouth.

I would agree that if there are two mafia teams, that they would have distinctive names.
I don't know how many there are.

It may or may not have been the idea that you suggested, but she did not put the idea in your mouth. She understood, as Matt (and I, though not vocally) did as well, that you suggested there are multiple mafia teams. Since you agree that having multiple mafia teams would mean there are distinctive names for each team, then it would go without saying that by suggesting there are multiple teams you are suggesting there are names for them as well. I interpret that this is purely miscommunication; but I find it a bit odd that you actually find it suspicious that juliets would reach that conclusion.
Juliets suggested I know what the mafia team names are. To have this knowledge, I would probably have to be mafia. But she didn't seem very convinced considering the suggestion she made.
Convinced that you were mafia? I think she was trying to gauge that without outright accusing you of anything (which, as always, leads to different and often less reliable results) so I still don't see how the suggestion of the teams having names is suspicious in any way.

a2thezebra wrote:
DharmaHelper wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:Dharma. I have a question for you. What do you think MM is trying to achieve with his crock of total shit?
It could be that his question wasn't bait, but he's using the "bait" defense as an excuse after taking some flak.
Good point, that's possible.

You'll note that at one point Zebra suggests MM is just being WIFOMy as is sometimes his pleasure. I'd assert they were playing into WIFOM quite a bit, particularly when they were joking around about how STUPID and SILLY Rico's accusations were. We now know that in the case of Zebra, Rico's accusation was well-placed even if the reasoning was lacking. I don't struggle to see this as team mates being brazen in their WIFOM and dismissals of Rico's weak attacks. It's not as though MM left the door open to be linked to Zebra inadvertently -- the participation was always mutual.

Later Zebra does question MM a little, but it doesn't develop much and he also half-defends MM in the face of DH's "crock of shit" suspicion.

Spoiler: show

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:If Rico REALLY wanted to be lynched then they wouldn't go about it the way they are. They would be more subtle. Getting lynched on Day 1 does not require a performance like the one Rico has given. Just say this or that and/or come off as disingenuous with a few actions and rest assured you will get lynched on Day 1. This is WAY more than that, it's unnecessary.
But if that is his goal, it has been effective.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:You know what, I think Rico wants to be lynched.

I don't think we should give that to him. Discuss.
You voted zebra and I followed. That was the only vote ever placed on a confirmed baddie during this phase. I'm sorry if that's the best I could do.

Put yourself in my shoes (wash your feet first, tho) and tell me what I should do right now. Vote properly and achieve a 1 vote on a confirmed baddie. Much achievement. You're a notorious self-voter. And known to like apples. Discuss.
Zebra is confirmed town though.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:You know what, I think Rico wants to be lynched.

I don't think we should give that to him. Discuss.
You voted zebra and I followed. That was the only vote ever placed on a confirmed baddie during this phase. I'm sorry if that's the best I could do.

Put yourself in my shoes (wash your feet first, tho) and tell me what I should do right now. Vote properly and achieve a 1 vote on a confirmed baddie. Much achievement. You're a notorious self-voter. And known to like apples. Discuss.
Zebra is confirmed town though.
The fark he is.
I can confirm that in my proffesional mafia opinion, a2thezebra is civilian, I do declare.

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:That idea's worth noting, Mac. HamburgerBoy has replaced juliets on my list of the six to potentially be killed by me. Killed. KILLED.

linki - I'm not claiming to know how you play in general, only how you have played recently. Which is not this. Or at least, it wasn't.

linki - stop stop stop lemme post ugh
Confirmed town.

This is all more WIFOM. Joking around is fine. Being incorrect in a town read is fine. But this doesn't look like that to me, it looks like a concerted effort to call Zebra a town read for no reason. This obviously came before Zebra's flip, and I could easily see this being MM's deliberate "way too wrong to be fake" WIFOM. I think he's suspicious and a potential team mate of Zebra.

Zebra and ninja

Spoiler: show

Zebra never mentioned her. She mentioned Zebra once in this post. She backs Zebra up on her vote for Rico. Hard to read very deep into one post, but I will say that it's noteworthy she specifically pointed to Zebra and specifically followered her lead. Might be less likely for this to happen if they're team mates. Shrug.

Zebra and RadicalFuzz

Spoiler: show

a2thezebra wrote:
RadicalFuzz wrote: Zebra I understand your frustration at seemingly being misrepresented, but you're committing the same premature conclusion fallacy you're accusing Rico of.

I've been trying not to be too hypocritical because I thought of this very point you're making, which is why I'm trying to be open to the possibility that Rico is being WIFOMy for town-motivated reasons. It's why when he said that I'm confirmed bad I did not throw the same statement back at him, even though my gut said I should. Perhaps I'm being premature regardless, but really, can you think of a town-motivated justification for his behavior?
I like to save my conclusions for when I'm given enough meat to form a conclusion

In a single post you pretend that my response was a deflective defense when it's not, while at the same time using deflection as your own defense because you don't have a reasonable answer as to what I accused of...because I hit the nail on the head
What exactly was his supposed defense against "you're trying to look as town as possible?" Did you expect him to refute that point, that he isn't trying to look town?

I expected him to elaborate, at least a little, on why he's acting the way he's acting. Or at the very least, provide a believable reason for not elaborating.

Something that concerns me, however, is this post you make shortly after the above. You say the following:
Nice continued lack of defense to a legitimate and shared suspicion by the way.
Nobody else has commented on your suspicion, it's literally two posts after you initially stated it, so how is it "shared?"

Because I'm not claiming it as my suspicion. By "shared" I meant to re-iterate that I wasn't the first to be suspicious of Rico's behavior, because I'm not.

a2thezebra wrote:Haha, I bet it's both. You did tickle my funny bone earlier Fuzz but not in a way that I felt was alignment-indicative. I'm watching you, but I've yet to see anything to call out as bad.

a2thezebra wrote:
RadicalFuzz wrote:You know how to read, Zebra. I like you.
Thanks Fuzz, I try my best. You killed it in Talking Heads I have to say, so I look forward to playing with you here, bad or not.

a2thezebra wrote:
RadicalFuzz wrote:Zebra I disagree. Intentionally twisting words to gauge reactions isn't necessarily an anti-Town strategy. It stirs up trouble, sure, but most players would have different reactions to being misinterpreted based on various variables, including allegiance.
Valid point, I'll take this into consideration. Twisting words can be beneficial, but what about trying to convince everyone else that you're right? What about suspecting people simply for not agreeing with you? Like I said to kick off my back-and-forth with Rico, there's gauging reactions and then there's trying to look as town as possible. You can gauge reactions without steering the thread in a direction that you - as town- theoretically have no reason to be confident with on Night 0.

Limited content, some of it a little chummy. They held a discussion, but it didn't seem to produce reads or stances from either of them.

Spoiler: show

Most of Fuzz's Zebra-relevant content is already covered. The bit above does show him lamenting that he wasn't included on a suspect list, which recalls nicely his town personality in Talking Heads. I have a feeling he does that either way though. I don't think there's enough material here to come to an educated conclusion.

Zebra and sig

Spoiler: show

No relevant interaction with/mentions of sig until she throws him on the suspect list. I have no idea why Zebra was casting suspicion upon sig or whether it was genuine. Team mate compatible, not necessarily indicative.

Spoiler: show

sig wrote:I want an apology also, I'm not sure what I want it for, but by God I want one!

So I read the back and forth between Ricohet, Mac, and Zebra and honestly most of it went in one ear and out the other. I think Llama raises an interesting point about Mac, Zebra seems to be acting like Zebra. Rico seems to be posting a good amount of stuff.

What does everyone think of JJJ? He posted those voice messages, but after I raised my concern of them I don't recall anymore of his posts.

MacDougall wrote:Yes Ricochet is most certainly bullshitting hard. This is not my beautiful Ricochet.
Mac has a role from the TH game, or I'm getting my old people bands mixed up? :P

thellama73 wrote:
a2thezebra wrote:
thellama73 wrote:Zebra (who is a girl)

Zebra (who is a girl)
I think that you think that I take myself more seriously than I actually do. Yes, I identify as a girl, no, I'm not going to antagonize anyone that doesn't agree.[/quote
I'll be the judge of that.

Well I mean she hasn't threatened to sue you, or accuse you of using improper pronouns, or kidnap you, lock you in a hole, keep you there for about 3 to 5 days, hang you from her second story house when she tells you that she is taking you upstairs to get a shower, and then after hanging you skin you to make a man suit for her to wear. (I in no way mean to be offensive so I hope nobody takes it that way, I truly doubt Zebra is a Serial Killer, BUT if she is I just want you to know Zebra I wouldn't make a very good victim at all and I'd never turn you in to the police when Llama's skinned body turns up in a river with a cocoon shoved up his throat )

So I'd say she was okay.

sig wrote:Sorry lower activity I was quite busy. The game is moving really fast and even reading it I'm a little lost.

Long Con wrote:Llama, I noticed that when Golden brought it up earlier. Mac never specifically denied being bad, he just said MM would find any evidence of it. Depends on how unwaveringly honest you think Mac is intent on being. The implication here is that he didn't want to lie about his baddieness, he preferred to flaunt it instead? "Mwa ha ha, you will NEVER find the evidence you need to defeat Me! Foolish Civ!"

Is this like A Few Good Men, where Col. Jessup wanted to claim proud responsibility for the Code Red?

Like when you attacked sig for his use of the word "interesting", among other things, this feels to me like you are opportunistically jumping on things to cast suspicion on people... as opposed to stating a genuine suspicion. Like a predator that senses weakness.
This is familiar to what happened to me in World Reborn.

Right know I don't have many reads however, I'm leaning civ on Zebra and LC.
I'm unsure of Rico but would rather not have him lynched today.

My preferred lynch for today would be Llama.
I've got a slightly off gut read of Dom and DH, but nothing beyond a gut read at this time.
Know for Night 0 JJJ was talking about not caring as much. Is this a genuine thing, or a strategy he is using for whatever reason?

"Zebra seems to be acting like Zebra" isn't a great look. I'll call sig a potential team mate of Zebra's.

#1894

Just realized DharmaHelper isn't on the poll and I missed him in the alphabet. I'll get him last with Elohcin/FZ.

#1895

Alive:
bcornett24
Black Rock]
Boomslang]
DharmaHelper
Dom
DrWilgy
Draconus
Elohcin / FZ
Epignosis
Golden
HamburgerBoy
JaggedJimmyJay
Juliets
Long Con
LoRab
MacDougall
Matt
Metalmarsh89
nijuukyugou
RadicalFuzz
sig
Sorsha
thellama73
Tranq

Undead roaming zombie abomination:
Ricochet

Dead:
a2thezebra
DFaraday

#1896

Zebra and Sorsha

Spoiler: show

This is pretty much it before Zebra was killed. I won't jump to strong conclusions without more content, but I'll say that this is a somewhat odd observation by Sorsha -- that BR was underlining "crap" and might potentially be cursed. She seemed quite open to the notion of two curse roles, so perhaps she already had confirmation of one of them? It's a reach, but I'll think on it.

Zebra and Spacedaisy

No mentions either way (I don't believe Spacedaisy has posted). Inconclusive.

Zebra and thellama73

Spoiler: show

As I said with in my review for LoRab, the "fishy as fuck" post is definitely the most interesting to me (the other two are just her translating the emojis she forced me to post). It could be that Zebra was just vocalizing her disdain for any counterwagon that popped up. The strong language might indicate that she knew something more of their alignments (contextually it'd have to be that they're not on her team) and was preparing to accept the potential credibility bonus if either were lynched. I am not sure of that though because they were never truly likely to be lynched at all -- Rico's wagon dominated the entirety of Day 1.

Spoiler: show

Not much there. Llama mentions Zebra in passing in a post more directed at MacDougall, and then engages in the relatively trivial discussion of what the best Day 1 lynch would/could have been. This doesn't tell me much either way. I'm left then with my prior concern that llama might be teamed with Zebra, leading her to curse me so I couldn't continue to pursue a case against him on Day 1. With that in mind, there is at least one post I saw that might be relevant to that theory, so I'll explore it here.

Spoiler: show

The fisrt post is very take-it-or-leave-it. Okay. The second post doesn't work for me though. DharmeHelper raised the point that llama had been semi-defending Rico and it wouldn't make sense to curse him with that in mind. This came before the Rico flip though so DH may have anticipated a baddie role, I'm not sure. Either way I think the point is valid, and though llama suggested it wouldn't matter -- "how little you know me" -- I can't help but doubt that. Obviously llama did not curse me, that much is certain. Zebra did. If they're team mates then the curse decision is probably coordinated between them and among the other team mates. One guy preferring a Rico curse doesn't overrule another guy wanting JJJ. It's speculative I admit, but I think it's a dubious statement by llama.

I've also included llama's more recent explanation for not having engaged me in my suspicions earlier. I never felt you intended to disrespect me llama, so no worries on that front mate. That's kind of why I was suspicious of you -- the motive was something other than disrespect. I do think it would have been plausible to respond to my Day 0 material though so I am not inclined to accept this explanation comfortably.

I remain suspicious, though not quite as fervently as before. Give me your input folks.

Zebra and Tranq

Spoiler: show

Unsurprisingly limited. I get pretty much nothing from this.

Spoiler: show

The second post is my favorite post in this thread. What?

They're a bit chummy I suppose. Eh, mostly inconclusive.

Zebra and DharmaHelper

Spoiler: show

That's pretty much it for Zebra's posts.

Spoiler: show

Over 300 posts between them and this is it. Zebra does press him with one question, but immediately accepts his answer and releases any pressure that may have existed. DH provided a non-read of Zebra in which he placed her between Rico and Mac in ranking of suspicion for those three during their Night 0/Day 1 post-mania.

Lack of substantive interactive content for lurkers isn't suspicious, but for two players who've been integral to the motion of the game so far it is at least curious.

Zebra and Elohcin/FZ

No interaction among them. Inconclusive.

#1897

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Alive:
bcornett24
Black Rock]
Boomslang]
DharmaHelper
Dom
DrWilgy
Draconus
Elohcin / FZ
Epignosis
Golden
HamburgerBoy
JaggedJimmyJay
Juliets
Long Con
LoRab
MacDougall
Matt
Metalmarsh89
nijuukyugou
RadicalFuzz
sig
Sorsha
thellama73
Tranq

Undead roaming zombie abomination:
Ricochet

Dead:
a2thezebra
DFaraday

THANK YOU!!!! I started to do this on page one of the thread, but never finished it. I will put these links in that post, it is like the 3rd or 4th post of the thread, to make them easier to find.

#1898

No problemo!

#1899

I would have done it tonight or tomorrow, after returning from my trip, but nicely done. Like my noble title, too.

Hey Golden, remember when you had a giggle at my exchange with zebra about his six suss names? How are we on that? What to make of it? Feels like MacDougall releasing his scumlist before getting offed, back in THM. Would zebra be the kind of player to distance herself from teamies or put them in a susslist, for Wife-Ohms?

#1900

Ricochet wrote:I would have done it tonight or tomorrow, after returning from my trip, but nicely done. Like my noble title, too.

Hey Golden, remember when you had a giggle at my exchange with zebra about his six suss names? How are we on that? What to make of it? Feels like MacDougall releasing his scumlist before getting offed, back in THM. Would zebra be the kind of player to distance herself from teamies or put them in a susslist, for Wife-Ohms?

One difference is that zebra probably did not know she was going to die, whereas Mac, I assume, timed that scumlist at a point in time where he suspected he might be lynched.

Besides that, though, I doubt zebra's list is entirely devoid of teammates, but I'm not sure we can be certain enough to do much based on it.

Finish It