Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

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Why do you feel civilians lose games so often on The Syndicate? Select up to three.

Player performance in the thread
5
13%
Player role usage/non-usage
5
13%
Inactivity
10
25%
Game design
7
18%
Cultural rules norms
5
13%
Cultural inclination towards fun over victory
4
10%
Civilians/townies are supposed to lose more often than other factions, I see this as the natural order.
1
3%
Something else (please share)
3
8%
This isn't even true, civilians/townies win plenty. Go to bed, JJJ.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 40
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#41

Post by S~V~S »

Yeah, that one game, 9 with one modkill. All of them civvies XD

I lol'ed
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#42

Post by S~V~S »

He just likes killing people; MP the Killer Accountant.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#43

Post by ika »

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
I've pointed this out before, but (until Turf Wars), a mafia team of more than 4 players has never won on the Syndicate. The big teams always end up losing. It's the games where there's two mafia teams, or one mafia team and an Indy team, or several Indy roles and a mafia team, where the mafia usually wins. But such games are very common here.

Games with two mafia teams give mafia a legitimate chance to act like a civilian. They don't have to fake their scumhunting, because they do truly want to lynch players that civilians also want to lynch. I think this is another reason why mafia tend to win more here, since this format is very common.

I wonder about this though. I wonder if revealing alignments of nightkilled players in such games would offer some counterbalance to that. Not roles, just alignments. :ponder:
I do have to say, when you make multi-ball game, it does get more swingy. I would say multiball can make the game much more scum-sided as well.

As for the revealing alignment. I would like to see that more, i think it would only be useful in a multiball game though.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#44

Post by ika »

On the meta issue: i agree if people use it too much that they will get overtaken one game. Funny enough as much as i say i use meta, i only use it very little. If anything i use it as a baseline to start a read. Even with silver, i dont like to think when it comes ot reading her its not about meta, but about her as a person

On the trust issue: i have already touched on that and how town doesn't find town and just paranoias themselves to a conspiracy theory of the impossible scum teams

on silencer/restrictions: it should be a scum aligned role. Frankly there is literally no town utility to removing a town voice, right or not. The moment you remove a town's power to vote and speak you have basically removed an entire town player for that 48 hrs. Me and silver have talked about it extensively on other sites and after downtown abbey. It does nobody any real favors in long run. If the role is scum aligned i can 100% understand its utility but for town to not only remove speaking powers but voting powers seems like you have a negative utility role that should never be used.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#45

Post by Silverwolf »

ika wrote: on silencer/restrictions: it should be a scum aligned role. Frankly there is literally no town utility to removing a town voice, right or not. The moment you remove a town's power to vote and speak you have basically removed an entire town player for that 48 hrs. Me and silver have talked about it extensively on other sites and after downtown abbey. It does nobody any real favors in long run. If the role is scum aligned i can 100% understand its utility but for town to not only remove speaking powers but voting powers seems like you have a negative utility role that should never be used.
This, so much this. There is nothing more frustrating than having your voice and your vote-a major power for town-taken away by a town role. That just seems negative utility. But for scum to be able to do it, makes sense.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#46

Post by A Person »

ika wrote:On the meta issue: i agree if people use it too much that they will get overtaken one game. Funny enough as much as i say i use meta, i only use it very little. If anything i use it as a baseline to start a read. Even with silver, i dont like to think when it comes ot reading her its not about meta, but about her as a person
What if this is part of your meta game? :mafia:
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#47

Post by ika »

A Person wrote:
ika wrote:On the meta issue: i agree if people use it too much that they will get overtaken one game. Funny enough as much as i say i use meta, i only use it very little. If anything i use it as a baseline to start a read. Even with silver, i dont like to think when it comes ot reading her its not about meta, but about her as a person
What if this is part of your meta game? :mafia:
Clarify?
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#48

Post by A Person »

ika wrote:
A Person wrote:
ika wrote:On the meta issue: i agree if people use it too much that they will get overtaken one game. Funny enough as much as i say i use meta, i only use it very little. If anything i use it as a baseline to start a read. Even with silver, i dont like to think when it comes ot reading her its not about meta, but about her as a person
What if this is part of your meta game? :mafia:
Clarify?
What if yours, or others, posts in this thread are a part of your meta game meant to influence future mafia games?
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#49

Post by ika »

A Person wrote: What if yours, or others, posts in this thread are a part of your meta game meant to influence future mafia games?
Then we are not having a discussion and are going into a WIFOM argument.

I do think that the discussion will change how mafia games are designed overall (as JJJ pointed out with his site before it did something of the sort) but rereading your point, i would not be surprised if something comes of this thread
Last edited by ika on Wed May 18, 2016 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#50

Post by A Person »

ika wrote:
A Person wrote: What if yours, or others, posts in this thread are a part of your meta game meant to influence future mafia games?
Then we are not having a discussion and are going into a WIFOM argument.
Ah, I predicted this, to call something a WIFOM argument is the oldest meta game of all!
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#51

Post by ika »

A Person wrote:
ika wrote:
A Person wrote: What if yours, or others, posts in this thread are a part of your meta game meant to influence future mafia games?
Then we are not having a discussion and are going into a WIFOM argument.
Ah, I predicted this, to call something a WIFOM argument is the oldest meta game of all!
I edited my post to respond more. Im not really caring about the WIFOM argument or if this thread does make change, im here for the discussion. IF it makes change more power to the thread. If not, well we had a nice dicussion
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#52

Post by A Person »

ika wrote:
A Person wrote:
ika wrote:
A Person wrote: What if yours, or others, posts in this thread are a part of your meta game meant to influence future mafia games?
Then we are not having a discussion and are going into a WIFOM argument.
Ah, I predicted this, to call something a WIFOM argument is the oldest meta game of all!
I edited my post to respond more. Im not really caring about the WIFOM argument or if this thread does make change, im here for the discussion. IF it makes change more power to the thread. If not, well we had a nice dicussion
I am mostly amusing myself by pointing out one of the problems one has as a civ player.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#53

Post by ika »

A Person wrote: I am mostly amusing myself by pointing out one of the problems one has as a civ player.
Well, if you want to be tecnical all maifa (outside of PR reulsts and mod info) is WIFOM in itself.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#54

Post by Tangrowth »

S~V~S wrote:He just likes killing people; MP the Killer Accountant.
:feb:
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#55

Post by Epignosis »

MovingPictures07 wrote:
S~V~S wrote:He just likes killing people; MP the Killer Accountant.
:feb:
Creditz befo debitz, bitchtez

Er, something like that. :rolleyes:

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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#56

Post by A Person »

ika wrote:
A Person wrote: I am mostly amusing myself by pointing out one of the problems one has as a civ player.
Well, if you want to be tecnical all maifa (outside of PR reulsts and mod info) is WIFOM in itself.
I was amusing myself by trying to demonstrate that, if I were to host again I'd try to think of a way to create group cohesion with the civs. It is difficult, very often one finds themselves innocent victim of a miss-aimed lynch or civ power or the goose in a wild goose chase. I guess my point is that there is a psychological disadvantage when playing civ, and it can cause a lot of different problems.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#57

Post by Marmot »

ika wrote:On the meta issue: i agree if people use it too much that they will get overtaken one game. Funny enough as much as i say i use meta, i only use it very little. If anything i use it as a baseline to start a read. Even with silver, i dont like to think when it comes ot reading her its not about meta, but about her as a person

On the trust issue: i have already touched on that and how town doesn't find town and just paranoias themselves to a conspiracy theory of the impossible scum teams

on silencer/restrictions: it should be a scum aligned role. Frankly there is literally no town utility to removing a town voice, right or not. The moment you remove a town's power to vote and speak you have basically removed an entire town player for that 48 hrs. Me and silver have talked about it extensively on other sites and after downtown abbey. It does nobody any real favors in long run. If the role is scum aligned i can 100% understand its utility but for town to not only remove speaking powers but voting powers seems like you have a negative utility role that should never be used.
I'm with you. I think meta can supplement a solid read, but I don't like to let it determine a read.
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?

The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#58

Post by Tangrowth »

I think it often is a little bit of many of these things playing together simultaneously.

Game design is quite difficult when it comes to unconventional, very complicated role madness games that many of us fell in love with years ago, and it's very, very difficult to balance these kind of games. I've found over the years that I think overly complicated games, as fun as they are, give mafia an advantage because townies spend most of the game confused. This is partially because another problem, which is that town often views themselves as individuals rather than a team, is manifesting -- and this developed due to the fact that townies (and even baddies, before this site at other LP-based communities) could only win if they were alive. For my first 2 years of playing, I maybe won 2 games max due to those conditions due to my high propensity to get myself lynched. I do also think that many people here play mafia for the fun and don't always take it super seriously. That's all well and good, but it's inevitably led to some conflict and differences of opinion. I remember arguing with people on Day 1 every single game about whether randomizing and self-voting were a legitimate Day 1 strategy since I was one of the very few from the LP-based community who was very opposed to it from the beginning.

Especially since I've become involved with other communities, particularly RYM, I've seen the more conventional ways that communities played mafia, and have actually grown to like the team-based win cons (regardless of survival), smaller games, and less complex setups more as a player. As a host, I still love my overly complex games because I try to reflect my themes as much as possible and they're a lot of fun, but I also now recognize that a substantial amount of those kind of games just aren't "mafia". They are still mafia to me, but you have to view them inevitably with a different mindset. I think many of us in this community are pretty open-minded when it comes to what constitutes a "mafia" game, inevitably due to our upbringing at LP-based communities where we ran nothing but open setup role madness; I'd say while that has contributed to some of the 'problem' of the town not winning as much, it's more of a good thing than not, and I really like that we can call our community and approach to the game unique comparative to the rest of the mafia universe.

Like S~V~S noted, I generally echo the observation that, for years in LP-based communities, the win rate seemed rather balanced, though GTH I would say that I think mafia did win more often. At STV though, town won almost every game, whereas at TP I think it might have been more mafia-friendly, so I think it just depended on the community and the customs to a degree as well.

Let's not forget that even perfect balance can lead to seemingly 'unbalanced' outcomes. If I flip a coin 10 times, there's still a possibility, although remote, that I'll get 8 heads and 2 tails. Would we then start questioning whether the coin is balanced in the favor of heads? Add in human behavior with respect to players and hosts -- things get more complicated. Especially in smaller sample sizes. And in mafia games, you can even balance the game's setup in favor of the town, but if the mafia simply outplay the town or if the town never fully examine the mafia like they do each other, then that's what happens. You cannot control for that!

The historical win rates by faction discrepancy is definitely a question without an easy answer, but I think we've been making progress towards addressing it via gradual introduction of closed setup Heist games where survival isn't necessary, integration with other cultures and players, etc. We still have a ways to go in my opinion, but I've seen some progress at least.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#59

Post by S~V~S »

Yeah, we're a work in progress; that is what I like most about us. We are always open to new ideas, and if they work for us, we embrace them happily. So sometimes balance is hard when you are in a constant state of growth. But it is something we are constantly striving to achieve.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#60

Post by Tangrowth »

S~V~S wrote:Yeah, we're a work in progress; that is what I like most about us. We are always open to new ideas, and if they work for us, we embrace them happily. So sometimes balance is hard when you are in a constant state of growth. But it is something we are constantly striving to achieve.
I absolutely agree! :D
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#61

Post by Marmot »

The Syndicate is basically the Beta Version of Mafia.
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?

The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#62

Post by rabbit8 »

Because civs don't sacrifice themselves for the team. Let's change that...
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#63

Post by Tangrowth »

rabbit8 wrote:Because civs don't sacrifice themselves for the team. Let's change that...
Working on it. :noble:
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#64

Post by A Person »

rabbit8 wrote:Because civs don't sacrifice themselves for the team. Let's change that...
What do you think all my Day 1 lynches were? :P
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#65

Post by Marmot »

rabbit8 wrote:Because civs don't sacrifice themselves for the team. Let's change that...
What do you think I've been doing this whole time?

Then again, there's been a recent increase in banning of self-voting. :sigh:
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?

The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#66

Post by A Person »

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Then again, there's been a recent increase in banning of self-voting. :sigh:
:omg: :overreact: :wtf: :why: :faint:
How am I supposed to play mafia like that?
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#67

Post by Tangrowth »

A Person wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Then again, there's been a recent increase in banning of self-voting. :sigh:
:omg: :overreact: :wtf: :why: :faint:
How am I supposed to play mafia like that?
You can blame me. :feb:
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#68

Post by S~V~S »

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
rabbit8 wrote:Because civs don't sacrifice themselves for the team. Let's change that...
What do you think I've been doing this whole time?

Then again, there's been a recent increase in banning of self-voting. :sigh:
I will never ban that or self targeting either. Both have a strategic place. I don;t like either, but who am I to impose my standards on my players?
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#69

Post by Tangrowth »

S~V~S wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
rabbit8 wrote:Because civs don't sacrifice themselves for the team. Let's change that...
What do you think I've been doing this whole time?

Then again, there's been a recent increase in banning of self-voting. :sigh:
I will never ban that or self targeting either. Both have a strategic place. I don;t like either, but who am I to impose my standards on my players?
I disagree. Self-targeting is one thing. A self-vote has no strategic place in a mafia game, and this is coming from someone who's done it out of frustration more than once over the years.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#70

Post by S~V~S »

I think taking options off the table limits people. I ave seen baddies force people to self vote. Fun times. Each host to his or her own :)
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#71

Post by rabbit8 »

A Person wrote:
rabbit8 wrote:Because civs don't sacrifice themselves for the team. Let's change that...
What do you think all my Day 1 lynches were? :P
Hilarious.
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
rabbit8 wrote:Because civs don't sacrifice themselves for the team. Let's change that...
What do you think I've been doing this whole time?

Then again, there's been a recent increase in banning of self-voting. :sigh:
Establishing an easy day 1 routine. Not my cup of tea. For timid players...
S~V~S wrote:I think taking options off the table limits people. I ave seen baddies force people to self vote. Fun times. Each host to his or her own :)
I agree. I enjoy variety in baddies. I like multiple game strategy. If you're only playing to win the current game, you're not playing mafia well. In my opinion.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#72

Post by S~V~S »

No guts, no glory, amirite??
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#73

Post by Golden »

rabbit8 wrote:I agree. I enjoy variety in baddies. I like multiple game strategy. If you're only playing to win the current game, you're not playing mafia well. In my opinion.
Rabbit taught me this. SVS too, to some extent.

Omg, I can't believe I'm about to say this... is it possible part of the reason I'm a decent mafia player because of rabbit? :disappoint:
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#74

Post by rabbit8 »

S~V~S wrote:No guts, no glory, amirite??
:SVS:
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#75

Post by DFaraday »

I agree with the sentiment regarding civs who play as individuals, because I'm guilty of it quite a bit. I pretty much invest everything I do with storytelling, and Mafia lends itself well to that, so I think within the bounds of the story and don't really think of it as a victory if my character dead at the end. I'm reluctant to even put banners in my sig of games where I won even though I was dead (I do have a couple, but they feel like technicalities to me).

It's easier for me to sacrifice myself for teammates I know (eg. as a baddie), since at least I have some concrete purpose for my death. But yeah, I'm definitely part of the problem. :keys:
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#76

Post by Tangrowth »

S~V~S wrote:I think taking options off the table limits people. I ave seen baddies force people to self vote. Fun times. Each host to his or her own :)
Well, generally I agree with that sentiment, I just don't think self-voting is an option that should be available (just like voting for the non-player option), but that's just me. Of course to each their own.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#77

Post by Silverwolf »

MovingPictures07 wrote:
S~V~S wrote:I think taking options off the table limits people. I ave seen baddies force people to self vote. Fun times. Each host to his or her own :)
Well, generally I agree with that sentiment, I just don't think self-voting is an option that should be available (just like voting for the non-player option), but that's just me. Of course to each their own.
I can think of a situation it would be beneficial. For scum to do it when they want to self hammer to get out of the game. Town self voting makes zero sense to me to do ever.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#78

Post by Dragon D. Luffy »

I think a lot of it has to do with specific game design style. A lot of SYndicate traditions, while not bad by themselves, tend to be pro-scum, and combined they seem to make the game unbalanced on scum's side.

Example:

- Allowing scum players to talk and send actions after death: pro-mafia
- Banning info dumping: pro mafia
- Civilians don't win if they are dead: VERY pro-mafia
- Unchangable votes: pro-mafia
- Not flipping roles that are killed in the night: pro-mafia.

Some things I see are are pro-town, like allowing posts in the night, but they don't seem to compensate.

I don't think it has much to do with culture/skill. The site I come from has some of the laziest and dumbest civvies I've ever seem, and yet they still win games more often than Syndicate's civvies. On NF I often watch civvies pull off victories out of nowhere after doing nothing to deserve them, while here civvies butt their heads until they bleed to try and find mafia only to fail over and over.

Now, I'm not calling for a major overhaul in game design culture, since all those things I mentioned have their charm even if they are pro-mafia, but maybe hosts should be aware the way we host games is very pro-mafia and try to balance games accordingly. Give civs stronger roles, for example, to compensate for the fact they are not allowed to dump info.
MovingPictures07 wrote:
S~V~S wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
rabbit8 wrote:Because civs don't sacrifice themselves for the team. Let's change that...
What do you think I've been doing this whole time?

Then again, there's been a recent increase in banning of self-voting. :sigh:
I will never ban that or self targeting either. Both have a strategic place. I don;t like either, but who am I to impose my standards on my players?
I disagree. Self-targeting is one thing. A self-vote has no strategic place in a mafia game, and this is coming from someone who's done it out of frustration more than once over the years.
Jesters. Or any game complicated enough to award player bonuses if they die in a certain way.

I've recently had a role that made my mafia faction stronger if I got people to follow me in a bandwagon. One day the cop found I was mafia and revealed. I immediately self-voted and watched as 15 players voted for me, giving my faction a huge bonus.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#79

Post by rabbit8 »

^^That's a lot of excuses for horrible civvie play. I've played by those rules since I began playing and have never had a hard time finding baddies/scum, or winning as a civvie.

- Allowing scum players to talk and send actions after death: pro-mafia
Meh, slight advantage. Does it really make much difference in the end game. I doubt it.
- Banning info dumping: pro mafia
Disagree. Info dumping is stupid. Only needed for weak players whose arguments and ability to convey them are sub par. Or sore losers. Now if the roles changed every night like the advantage you claim below, this advantage wouldn't matter. They go hand in hand.
- Civilians don't win if they are dead: VERY pro-mafia
Disagree. Dead is dead. If I'm bad and I died I don't accept a winners banner. If you want to take a civvie win after dying and the civvies win, just copy the link. Besides I like to use my role for specific reasons. If I accomplish them I consider it a win. If I can get Golden really frustrated, I win. Enjoy the game, not the win. Also this doesn't affect the game in any way. It neither helps nor hinders the baddies chances of winning.
- Unchangable votes: pro-mafia
Disagree. Make a choice. Flip flopping is baddie behavior IMO. Changing votes is flipflopping, thus bad. But I flip flop as a civ all the time, holy fuck WIFOM or what?
- Not flipping roles that are killed in the night: pro-mafia.
Disagree. It changes the game. It could hurt or help either team.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#80

Post by Silverwolf »

Dragon D. Luffy wrote: - Allowing scum players to talk and send actions after death: pro-mafia
This is something that I've never seen anywhere else and really shouldn't be allowed. It is very scum sided if scum take advantage of it. In my last game, they didn't.
- Banning info dumping: pro mafia
Something again, I've never seen anywhere else. Last game, Futurama, town won because cop infodumped
- Civilians don't win if they are dead: VERY pro-mafia
They should win if town wins. I've never heard of them not.
- Unchangable votes: pro-mafia
I can't stand this mechanic. It removes power from the power of the vote that makes a game stronger for town.
- Not flipping roles that are killed in the night: pro-mafia
Never seen this before either. As town, I use flips a lot to analyze. If I can't do that, it makes the game harder to win for town.

Some things I see are are pro-town, like allowing posts in the night, but they don't seem to compensate.

Give civs stronger roles, for example, to compensate for the fact they are not allowed to dump info.

This. Stronger roles would help compesate for some of these things.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#81

Post by Dragon D. Luffy »

@Rabbit

"Horrible civvie play" is relative, civilians are not gods who can overcome any difficulty and Sherlock Holmes their way to victory. If baddies are winning games way more often in this site, it's because games are not being designed well enough to be balanced.

Knowing roles upon death, using cops results, changing votes, all of those are tools that civilians could be able to use to overcome the baddie's tools. The game isn't automatically better if it's harder for civilians to win. It has to be balanced first.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#82

Post by rabbit8 »

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:@Rabbit

"Horrible civvie play" is relative, civilians are not gods who can overcome any difficulty and Sherlock Holmes their way to victory. If baddies are winning games way more often in this site, it's because games are not being designed well enough to be balanced.

Knowing roles upon death, using cops results, changing votes, all of those are tools that civilians could be able to use to overcome the baddie's tools. The game isn't automatically better if it's harder for civilians to win. It has to be balanced first.
Relative to the civvies playing. Play better. I've seen entire baddies teams called after the first lynch or two. (No amount of balancing needed) I believe Golden has done this as well as myself. I know I've seen SVS get at least most of a team if not a whole team a couple times and these are just some of the players who have done it. They're also two players who know how to convince others.

The only vote that matters is the last vote in changeable games. Thus allowing it to changes is pointless. Just say who else you would have voted for in the thread. Use your words.... This is how civvies win, discussion.

If you can't find baddies without information, you're doing it wrong. Reevaluate your game. Not that everyone can't make mistakes. But over a month or two long game you should be able to narrow baddies down with little to no info.

I have not seen the roles lately but I agree with balance.

You in this post is not directed at you personally, Dragon.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#83

Post by Epignosis »

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:@Rabbit

"Horrible civvie play" is relative, civilians are not gods who can overcome any difficulty and Sherlock Holmes their way to victory. If baddies are winning games way more often in this site, it's because games are not being designed well enough to be balanced.

Knowing roles upon death, using cops results, changing votes, all of those are tools that civilians could be able to use to overcome the baddie's tools. The game isn't automatically better if it's harder for civilians to win. It has to be balanced first.
With a few notable exceptions (I mean notable in the sense that the game was broken from Day 0), most of the time the civilians lose on this site because many of them don't make a praiseworthy effort to win. They are absent 45 of the 48 allotted hours each Day phase, which minimizes discussion. They miss votes. They self-vote. They fail to send in night actions. They develop tunnel vision. They devote pages to back-and-forths which minimize other discussion and make other civilians disinterested in reading or overwhelmed. And so on.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#84

Post by rabbit8 »

Fun exercise, basic game. Baddie NK and BTSC and no civvie powers. I would be down in a heart beat. I enjoy a game with fun powers and flavor as much as the next player but I really enjoy the game for the mental sparring exercise that it is at its core.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#85

Post by Epignosis »

rabbit8 wrote:Fun exercise, basic game. Baddie NK and BTSC and no civvie powers. I would be down in a heart beat. I enjoy a game with fun powers and flavor as much as the next player but I really enjoy the game for the mental sparring exercise that it is at its core.
The Heist games here are supposed to be that or close to that, with no more than three powers and 15 roles.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#86

Post by Epignosis »

I just went through my own games to see what the ratio is.

Masters of the Universe- Civilians
X-Men- Independent faction
Cars- Civilians
Biblical- Civilians and Independent
Star Wars- Mafia and Independents (3 factions)
Arkham- Civilians and various Independents

Thomas & Friends- Mafia
Classic Super Mario Bros.- Civilians
Shawshank Redemption- Independent (serial killer)
Willow- Civilians and Independent
Are You Being Served?- Civilians and Independent
The Legend of Zebra- Mafia
Who Framed Roger Rabbit?- Civilians
Watchmen- Independents
Angry Birds- Mafia
Dune- Civilians and Independents
Spirited Away- Mafia

Game of Champions 2014- Civilians
Omertà- Mafia
Home Alone- Mafia

++++

Of the twenty games I've hosted here:

Civilian win: 50%
Mafia win: 35%
Independent win: 45%

Maybe I need more powerful mafias. :feb:
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#87

Post by Dragon D. Luffy »

I think I have played 6 or 7 games here and never seen civs win. I'll probably get retired from mafia before I ever see a civ win in the Syndicate at this rate.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#88

Post by Dragon D. Luffy »

Btw I'm not replying to every post adressed at me because I'm on my phone.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#89

Post by Dragon D. Luffy »

ika wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Civilians have been dominating the Heists here on the Syndicate though. That makes for an interesting counter-study.
I think with hesit, it is more straightforward and counteracts one of the most important things on the site, claiming and info dumping. As it was seen in the one that just finished, if info dumping wasn't allowed, scums might of been able to walk it out. WIth the ability to claim it made it impossible for scums to win
If you make role claiming allowed you need to be aware that might break tbe game and balance accordingly. Specially if your game has flavor (based on a specific theme) Give mafia janitors or godfathers, for example. Or make it closed setup and maybe even provide the mafia team with a list of "unused" characters they may claim. Open setup games with flavor and role claiming can become extremely pro-town.

I personally prefer the standard I see in a lot of games at NF. Allow info dumping but not claiminf your own role. I find that allows roles to be used to their full extent without giving civs an easy path to win.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#90

Post by Tangrowth »

Silverwolf wrote:
MovingPictures07 wrote:
S~V~S wrote:I think taking options off the table limits people. I ave seen baddies force people to self vote. Fun times. Each host to his or her own :)
Well, generally I agree with that sentiment, I just don't think self-voting is an option that should be available (just like voting for the non-player option), but that's just me. Of course to each their own.
I can think of a situation it would be beneficial. For scum to do it when they want to self hammer to get out of the game. Town self voting makes zero sense to me to do ever.
Well, considering I've only seen one game with a hammer on this site or any LP-based sites in all my years of playing, this didn't come to mind. I suppose that makes sense.
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