Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

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Why do you feel civilians lose games so often on The Syndicate? Select up to three.

Player performance in the thread
5
13%
Player role usage/non-usage
5
13%
Inactivity
10
25%
Game design
7
18%
Cultural rules norms
5
13%
Cultural inclination towards fun over victory
4
10%
Civilians/townies are supposed to lose more often than other factions, I see this as the natural order.
1
3%
Something else (please share)
3
8%
This isn't even true, civilians/townies win plenty. Go to bed, JJJ.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 40
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Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#1

Post by JaggedJimmyJay »

I think it's pretty well-known around here that the town/civilian faction doesn't win terribly often in full and speed games. I'd like to have a dialogue with anyone interested about this trend to see how everyone feels about it and what everyone thinks ars be the most likely cause(s).

I've included a poll for everyone to select the reason(s) they think are most significant in causing the disparity in win rate between civilians and non-civilians on The Syndicate.*

Some reassurances: I don't start this thread now with my mind on any specific single game -- this isn't meant to be a passive aggressive shot at any host or players or anything like that. I've wanted to start this thread for a while but kept forgetting. Also, I don't mean to imply that The Syndicate is in some way dampened as a Mafia community in light of this trend. I came from RYM, where at one time town lost 22 out of 25 games. We collectively tried to figure out what was going on there too and it led to some interesting cultural shifts.

*If you select "player performance", please do not call anyone out. That applies to every option where a "call out" is possible. This is meant to be a productive and civil conversation.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#2

Post by Marmot »

I would argue role usage. Considering that every civilian in Syndicate games often has a power role, they should often be able to use the abilities to their advantage.

There were a couple examples of this in Downton Mafia. The civilians did win, but a couple abysmal plays by the civilian players due to their role use almost threw the game for them. (I'm looking at you llama).

I don't think lack of participation has as much to do with it. It might be worth looking into, but I believe that civilians on the Syndicate tend to be more active than mafia anyway.



Then there are some players (I'd put myself in that category) that are just better at being any role that isn't civilian-aligned. :P
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#3

Post by Marmot »

Civilians have been dominating the Heists here on the Syndicate though. That makes for an interesting counter-study.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#4

Post by ika »

Honestly i would pick all of them except role usage. Mafia at its core is literally citizen/vanilla vs mafia. Role usages is just an added benefit to it all. If a game is dependent on role usage that's another thing but towns biggest power is its voice and its vote. Which could fall under game design.

That being said, i know me and silver has voiced this many times over, town doesn't find town nearly enough. Its more just "oh we just random lynch" while its not "random" to its word i feel like how a lot of the lynches go does boil down to random in a sense 2 game i can recall (turf and champ) we had CFD, now both landed on scum but it does kinda lead to an element of "random". Which ties into town play performance.

I think the most compelling thing though is not being able to role claim/info dump. While i can understand why its not allowed due to basically all unique roles, it does hinder a lot of towns abilities to play in general. I mean using downtown abbey as an example, if the BTCS checker got a positive results, it can't just claim it which hinders town. IMO i would like to see more setups that allow mass claims or claiming in general.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#5

Post by ika »

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Civilians have been dominating the Heists here on the Syndicate though. That makes for an interesting counter-study.
I think with hesit, it is more straightforward and counteracts one of the most important things on the site, claiming and info dumping. As it was seen in the one that just finished, if info dumping wasn't allowed, scums might of been able to walk it out. WIth the ability to claim it made it impossible for scums to win
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#6

Post by S~V~S »

I think our culture is some of it. It tends to be viewed as inherently unfair for a baddie who has played a flawless game to get outed because someone got a PM :shrug:

We had this culture at our core communities, and the win ratio was pretty even, so I don't think that is all of it, though.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#7

Post by ika »

S~V~S wrote:I think our culture is some of it. It tends to be viewed as inherently unfair for a baddie who has played a flawless game to get outed because someone got a PM :shrug:

We had this culture at our core communities, and the win ratio was pretty even, so I don't think that is all of it, though.
On the bolded, maybe so but that's also part of the game overall IMO. I believe i said it in rico's heist game that no matter how town someone looks POE will be an absolute in a PR sense and i believe i have mentioned that also in the heist that it can be a bit "unfair" but such is the game

As for the later, i grew up on a core where PRs were everything, i have long despised that after if became no fun. Even in downtown abbey where i said "all claim to be town" i only did it cus its optimal play. I was quite glad when elo shut it down.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#8

Post by S~V~S »

Well, perhaps some of us feel such is NOT the game. I have played with people who really actually seemed to think the baddies were actually bad, like they got RL mad and such. That's why I like that we use a silly name, baddies, rather than "scum". It's harder to get mad about being manipulated by "baddies", lol. But in any case I plan on beefing up civs more in upcoming games to counteract it a bit.

And yeah, back in the day, when my home forums first started with Lie Detectors and such, the first few games everyone was forced to make an LD statement right up front, and that sucked, so for a while they qualified it, like "No forced Statements", no "I am a civvie" etc., then Lie Detectors went out of fashion before I even started playing about 7 or 8 years ago. I saw my first LD at a different forum a few years later. Forcing people to claim or do anything is un-civvie, IMO. I am glad it isn't really done anymore.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#9

Post by JaggedJimmyJay »

I think it's largely a philosophical discussion. I would assert that if someone gets ID'd as a baddie by an alignment checker, then they couldn't have played a flawless game by default. I understand the other side though, and I do think that some vanilla+ games have the tendency to turn into mechanical boredom and lose some of the sleuthing that makes Mafia fun.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#10

Post by S~V~S »

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I think it's largely a philosophical discussion. I would assert that if someone gets ID'd as a baddie by an alignment checker, then they couldn't have played a flawless game by default. I understand the other side though, and I do think that some vanilla+ games have the tendency to turn into mechanical boredom and lose some of the sleuthing that makes Mafia fun.
I used to get policy LD'ed alot because people people worry about my baddie game. The two times I was a lie detector, I detected people I knew were good at fooling me. It had nothing to do with their current game.

But agreed, it is a philosophical discussion. I think allowing info dumps means valuing the civvies above the baddies. I think it makes for better gameplay as a civ trying to figure it out without someone handing it to you. But that's me, and I am probably one of the strongest opponents of info dumping here. Same for role hints. If you have to make a role hint to keep from getting lynched, you are playing a crap game. But again, this is me :)
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#11

Post by Epignosis »

One thing that is a major reason is that, traditionally here, civilians only won if they were alive and eliminated the Mafia. If civilians won dead or alive, I would have a lot more banners down there. However, the prevailing mindset among many has been, "As long as the lynch isn't me, everything is okay." This would lead to less than optimal play.

As a Host, I am all but divested of that view, and most (not all :dark: ) of my games will reward players who put forth the effort to find Mafia with a victory if it is earned. It is discouraging to work your butt off and get killed, and thus be deprived of a win. I have found that my ability to engage in the hunt is unleashed when I don't have to worry about dodging the night kill too.

However, I am still adamant that an open setup game should be designed to punish info-dumpers, not reward them. If you get info from the host via your role, it's good sportsmanship in a fully open setup to make a proper case and spar with the person you are trying to get lynched.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#12

Post by ika »

S~V~S wrote:Well, perhaps some of us feel such is NOT the game. I have played with people who really actually seemed to think the baddies were actually bad, like they got RL mad and such. That's why I like that we use a silly name, baddies, rather than "scum". It's harder to get mad about being manipulated by "baddies", lol. But in any case I plan on beefing up civs more in upcoming games to counteract it a bit.
I think thats the thing, and the view i'm taking is more objective overall. If we strip mafia to its core and look at the evolution of it, mafia with no extras is town vs mafia (not scum). As mafia evolved it added cop/doc/roleblocker but claiming was still allowed. IMO, i feel like when you take away mass claim ability you have taken away what is part of the core mafia. Now, i'm not saying its bad that its disallowed, but i feel like it does mitigate what mafia is in a core fashion. As for the scum vs baddie argument, i find that scum is the more "catch all" term and what i have known for pretty much ever.
And yeah, back in the day, when my home forums first started with Lie Detectors and such, the first few games everyone was forced to make an LD statement right up front, and that sucked, so for a while they qualified it, like "No forced Statements", no "I am a civvie" etc., then Lie Detectors went out of fashion before I even started playing about 7 or 8 years ago. I saw my first LD at a different forum a few years later. Forcing people to claim or do anything is un-civvie, IMO. I am glad it isn't really done anymore.
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Well it was used on my homesite and we basically called it a nerfed sheriff (cop). If i use such roles i would make it clear what is allowed and whats not.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#13

Post by ika »

Epignosis wrote:One thing that is a major reason is that, traditionally here, civilians only won if they were alive and eliminated the Mafia. If civilians won dead or alive, I would have a lot more banners down there. However, the prevailing mindset among many has been, "As long as the lynch isn't me, everything is okay." This would lead to less than optimal play.
IMO, if people are doing suboptimal plays for a banner it seems kinda dumb. I played on other sites and never got banners. IMO being right should be vindictive enough, getting them lynched is a bonus as well. But if people are doing plays just for the said above they are indeed hurting their own faction and allow scums to get away with more.
As a Host, I am all but divested of that view, and most (not all :dark: ) of my games will reward players who put forth the effort to find Mafia with a victory if it is earned. It is discouraging to work your butt off and get killed, and thus be deprived of a win. I have found that my ability to engage in the hunt is unleashed when I don't have to worry about dodging the night kill too.
I have seen so many players who dumb down their play to not die. IMO that's a problem of the players and not the setup itself. When people become the default n1 kill they dumb down their play so they don't get targeted. However it then sets the standards elsewhere that EVERYONE can do it.
However, I am still adamant that an open setup game should be designed to punish info-dumpers, not reward them. If you get info from the host via your role, it's good sportsmanship in a fully open setup to make a proper case and spar with the person you are trying to get lynched.
Funny enough, most of my setups i create are designed to punish down for mass claiming. It looks like it helps town on paper but the reality is that scums will pull off more then cus they have the withheld info that town does not though mass claim.

I disagree about the making cases and sparing though. If you catch someone though role info and you can claim it, it's much more interesting as scum to try to wiggle out of it. I mean yes you're outed scum and maybe the best you can do it have a 1v1 on it. But if you get info and are able to claim it, you should as thats the optimal play instead of case making IMO.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#14

Post by S~V~S »

I think case building is better play than info dumping, and as Epi says, better sportsmanship. Baddies are not vermin to be caught; they are respected adversaries to be outwitted.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#15

Post by ika »

S~V~S wrote:I think case building is better play than info dumping, and as Epi says, better sportsmanship. Baddies are not vermin to be caught; they are respected adversaries to be outwitted.
Still disagree overall but i'm not going to argue it that much cus its just an opinion and i'm not to say what i think is godsend (yes i know my gameplay is different and that's another thing). My view on it is that mafia at its core (and most of where my stances will end up coming from) is that mafia in general is about information and deceiving so claiming role/dumping info is part of mafia itself. Mafia has to try to make a claim that seems likely. If a game was literally a "follow the PR (cop)" then i would very much agree in the sense that it can be annoying and dumb.

The thing is that not everyone is convincing nor can they be. Some people (like me) have just played on guts and intuition. If they are right how do you explain it? If they have guts and check player X cus guts and find out that they are scum and nobody was listening last day phase, to me, they should be able to claim.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#16

Post by Silverwolf »

I've been caught out by a guilty as scum when I was playing an excellent scum game and went down. The problem with not being able to claim is the cop could be lynched with several clears and no one would know. The reason for claiming is exactly this. It gives an advantage to town in a situation where they are losing more than winning. I do agree that scumhunting should prevail but one of the things that gives town an advantage in any game, is the ability to use a role and part of that ability is to be able to crumb your role, claim at L-1 and then town can decide if they believe it or not or scum can cc to try to get the lynch through. There are lots of ways to play this but this is a very fun, and very mafia like way to play. Plus, scum is the main term I know and doesn't matter to me if I call them baddies or not.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#17

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Epignosis wrote:One thing that is a major reason is that, traditionally here, civilians only won if they were alive and eliminated the Mafia. If civilians won dead or alive, I would have a lot more banners down there. However, the prevailing mindset among many has been, "As long as the lynch isn't me, everything is okay." This would lead to less than optimal play.
I was thinking about this the other day actually. Civs only winning if they are alive means that self interest (or perceived self interest) seems like the most optimal way to play, if your goal is to win as an individual. On the other hand being a baddie rewards a group effort by allowing you to win even when dead, and there is also, I think, a psychological aspect to it as well. I have often seen people express concern about not having wanted to disappoint their team when bad, whereas the self-interested play of a civvie doesn't reward that type of group cohesion.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#18

Post by S~V~S »

Silverwolf wrote:I've been caught out by a guilty as scum when I was playing an excellent scum game and went down. The problem with not being able to claim is the cop could be lynched with several clears and no one would know. The reason for claiming is exactly this. It gives an advantage to town in a situation where they are losing more than winning. I do agree that scumhunting should prevail but one of the things that gives town an advantage in any game, is the ability to use a role and part of that ability is to be able to crumb your role, claim at L-1 and then town can decide if they believe it or not or scum can cc to try to get the lynch through. There are lots of ways to play this but this is a very fun, and very mafia like way to play. Plus, scum is the main term I know and doesn't matter to me if I call them baddies or not.
That's just it; it gives the town an advantage, an unfair advantage. This is just MY opinion, of course.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#19

Post by ika »

S~V~S wrote:
Silverwolf wrote:I've been caught out by a guilty as scum when I was playing an excellent scum game and went down. The problem with not being able to claim is the cop could be lynched with several clears and no one would know. The reason for claiming is exactly this. It gives an advantage to town in a situation where they are losing more than winning. I do agree that scumhunting should prevail but one of the things that gives town an advantage in any game, is the ability to use a role and part of that ability is to be able to crumb your role, claim at L-1 and then town can decide if they believe it or not or scum can cc to try to get the lynch through. There are lots of ways to play this but this is a very fun, and very mafia like way to play. Plus, scum is the main term I know and doesn't matter to me if I call them baddies or not.
That's just it; it gives the town an advantage, an unfair advantage. This is just MY opinion, of course.
I think that's the point of the big debate that's gonna happen, IMO i don't think it gives town a huge advantage because of the bolded. Scum and town can do it. Not only that if a PR gets run to l-1 and lives. Mafia just NK it. if it gets lynched then mafia has advantage still.

But again it's all opinion on this big "claim/info dump". My only real "hard stance" is that if we are to talk in a mafia philosophy on what mafia is at its living roots, claim/info is allowed and encouraged.

thats my 2 cents on that matter though
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#20

Post by S~V~S »

My roots are different than yours.

In any case, we did not allow it where I started, and the wins were balanced, so it is probably a combination of factors.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#21

Post by JaggedJimmyJay »

I think a no info-dumping rule is a necessity in open setup games with a large number of special roles, especially when everyone has a special role. I don't think there's any way to arrange a game like that with roleclaiming and info-dumping without it being broken. That's a unique appeal to this culture because open setup role madness genuinely isn't even a thing in many other places.

I don't think it's a necessity in a closed setup or in a vanilla-heavy open setup. It can still be employed though under certain circumstances. Any host who embraces that philosophy is fine by me. I do think that it might mean certain other tweaks will be needed though elsewhere in the rules or design to rebalance the game -- perhaps one less mafia member, or stronger town roles; the possibilities are endless.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#22

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There you go.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#23

Post by ika »

S~V~S wrote:My roots are different than yours.

In any case, we did not allow it where I started, and the wins were balanced, so it is probably a combination of factors.
I don't disagree either, i think where i have that point is from my roots and a little bit of devil's advocate where on an objective view and what maifa is whtn stipped of everything.

Ill respond to JJJ tomorrw, i have an overnight to go to
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#24

Post by Marmot »

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I think a no info-dumping rule is a necessity in open setup games with a large number of special roles, especially when everyone has a special role. I don't think there's any way to arrange a game like that with roleclaiming and info-dumping without it being broken. That's a unique appeal to this culture because open setup role madness genuinely isn't even a thing in many other places.

I don't think it's a necessity in a closed setup or in a vanilla-heavy open setup. It can still be employed though under certain circumstances. Any host who embraces that philosophy is fine by me. I do think that it might mean certain other tweaks will be needed though elsewhere in the rules or design to rebalance the game -- perhaps one less mafia member, or stronger town roles; the possibilities are endless.
I've pointed this out before, but (until Turf Wars), a mafia team of more than 4 players has never won on the Syndicate. The big teams always end up losing. It's the games where there's two mafia teams, or one mafia team and an Indy team, or several Indy roles and a mafia team, where the mafia usually wins. But such games are very common here.

Games with two mafia teams give mafia a legitimate chance to act like a civilian. They don't have to fake their scumhunting, because they do truly want to lynch players that civilians also want to lynch. I think this is another reason why mafia tend to win more here, since this format is very common.

I wonder about this though. I wonder if revealing alignments of nightkilled players in such games would offer some counterbalance to that. Not roles, just alignments. :ponder:
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?

The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#25

Post by S~V~S »

Two teams has more balance though, than one big one, since the mafia is also partially in the dark. they have to baddie hunt, too. I strongly prefer two teams for that reason. It was the most common format on our feeder sites,and it was 50/50 there pretty much on civ/bad win ratios.

We have had a lot of experimentation here, and that can lead to imbalance as well. we also have very strong players; in GoC, everyone was overpowered. And the civvies lost not becasue of that or any imbalance; they lost becasue they all dug stubborn-tunnels. Plus we have an outstandingly strong group of FEB players here. One thing I noticed when we started meeting people from more communities after last years Championship Tourney was that most of them, not all, but most, strongly prefer to be a civ. Us , not so much.

So I think as we grow and meet new people with new ways and adopt from them (as we are VERY adept at) we will balance out more. We are in a period of growth, and growth brings growing pains.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#26

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Speaking of strong FEB's, Sorsha and I both won the inaugural mafia game on PWIW.

She was mafia, and I was Indy. :P
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?

The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#27

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I actually agree with the answer 'strong FEBs' to some extent. At STV and RM, I feel like a lot of baddie tactics were much more unusual, almost as compensation for the lack of infodumping. You were expected not to bus, for instance, and doing so was bad form.

Here are my votes and other things I think contribute:

1) Player performance - I don't mean this as a knock against contribution, but rather simply that with a community that is so seasoned in the game baddies rarely make bad slips and yet town keep lynching people based on apparent slips, for example. Ultimately, I think a very high skill level across the board favours a higher mafia win rate, all other things being equal, because catching baddies relies on some way of establishing links or getting a baddie read and players who roll bad are combatting that more and more effectively.

2) Inactivity - I think this is a problem on two fronts: 1) It narrows the field of dangerous targets the baddies need to find a way to defuse when the inactives are towns and 2) It makes getting a lynch all but impossible when the inactives are baddies. I don't equate 'inactive' with low posting. I don't equate it with 'I'm catching up on the thread as much as I can'. I don't even equate it with 'Vompatti-style aloofness'. I equate it with 'disengaged from the game', and we've had games with 4-6 people or more who just don't even show up. I feel very blessed in my current hosting game that everyone is showing up to play. It changes everything.

3) Cultural inclination to fun over victory - because fun, for many people, is much more likely to equate to survival and getting to play the game for longer, and so discourage doing things that leave you dead. I don't think that's the only reason fun > victory leans mafia though... it's also because mafia have a lot of fun trying to meet their win con whereas civvies often generate their fun in ways other than giving their best effort to win. Having said that - I'd take our community's sense of fun over a balanced win rate, so I don't think trying to fix this is the solution.

4) Dead baddies winning when dead civilians don't. I remember at RM, being a large part of a number of civilian wins because I didn't care about winning - I was in it to win for the town. I also remember the effect of bussing when your teammates lost if they died; team thread meltdowns. You could create tension even by suspecting your teammate. I personally enjoy taking one for the team even as a baddie, but not everyone does. I think having disparate dead win conditions is significant.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#28

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S~V~S wrote:I think case building is better play than info dumping, and as Epi says, better sportsmanship. Baddies are not vermin to be caught; they are respected adversaries to be outwitted.
This brings a couple of notable spars with SVS to mind. RM Mafia. A World Reborn. Good times.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#29

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Golden wrote:
S~V~S wrote:I think case building is better play than info dumping, and as Epi says, better sportsmanship. Baddies are not vermin to be caught; they are respected adversaries to be outwitted.
This brings a couple of notable spars with SVS to mind. RM Mafia. A World Reborn. Good times.
I haven't sparred with SVS in a while. :ponder: We had some heated ones a ways back.
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?

The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#30

Post by a2thezebra »

I think a lot of the time it's because town (and not just this site, but in the game of mafia in general) just isn't very good. I think for most people it's easier to deceive than to unravel deceit. I also think that very little of what town generally thinks is alignment-indicative actually is alignment-indicative, and this results in many many mislynches.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#31

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I think most people rely too much on meta when throwing around suspicion. It's easy to fake and change and that trips up town way too much. I think the fact that that town won both of the most recent sockpuppet games (Futurama and the music one) shows this. Since people were all on sockpuppets, people were more logical, or something.
Lunalee wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:13 amQuin's ISO is full of posts that are actually trying to be helpful to the game. This doesn't look like town Quin.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#32

Post by S~V~S »

I have to agree, Quin. Plus they get wrapped up in their own suspicions, and don't listen to the rest of the town. Some people are so self assured as civvies, they can mislead whole threads unintentionally. And very strong leaders also tend to make the other civvies, who may disagree with them, reluctant to speak their own suspicions. I tend to be a pretty vocal player, and I have had that happen to me. When someone else, who I trust, has had such strong opinions, contrary to mine, that I did not push my point for fear of looking/feeling foolish.

In a recent game, I felt foolish after having been very wrong about someone, so when the leading civs disagreed with my suspicion of someone, I did not push it for fear of being wrong again, or of getting the leading players eye on ME, or of being made to feel foolish. And I was correct. And if I, a notable loudmouth, felt that way, I wonder how this affects the players who are quieter to begin with. I know it can make me lose interest in a game, so again, those quieter people may feel this way even more so.

This is why I used to be so adamantly against thread steering, but that seems to be our norm, and I think that is also an issue.

But overall, I think our ratio is starting to even out.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#33

Post by S~V~S »

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Golden wrote:
S~V~S wrote:I think case building is better play than info dumping, and as Epi says, better sportsmanship. Baddies are not vermin to be caught; they are respected adversaries to be outwitted.
This brings a couple of notable spars with SVS to mind. RM Mafia. A World Reborn. Good times.
I haven't sparred with SVS in a while. :ponder: We had some heated ones a ways back.
I have been trying to tame my sparring ways; it leads me to get over zealous & tell people to fuck off. Which is pretty inappropriate on my part, lol.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#34

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Quin wrote:I think most people rely too much on meta when throwing around suspicion. It's easy to fake and change and that trips up town way too much. I think the fact that that town won both of the most recent sockpuppet games (Futurama and the music one) shows this. Since people were all on sockpuppets, people were more logical, or something.
I agree. In Turf Wars there was scum being defended vigorously due to meta reads and it was frustrating to me as a new player to deal with this. I do use meta as part of a case but never as the only reason to read a person a certain way. It can be manipulated and even if it isn't, other factors should still be looked at. If it was that easy, everyone playing together numerous times would always be able to tell if a person is good or bad and that would just be boring.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#35

Post by S~V~S »

And another thing~ we seem to have taken fear of each other to such an extreme that any show of trust in someone is treated with paranoia & suspicion as "buddying" or "pocketing" or whatever jargon, so sometimes I think people are afraid to make in thread civ alliances due to fear of being accused of that. I know I have been. So, again, if a notable loudmouth like me has been silenced by fear of appearing to be buddying when I am a civ, I would imagine that the quieter, more tentative civs might be as well.

Some of these thoughts come from my experience watching the civs cannibalize each other with almost no help from the baddies in GoC, but also from my own experiences as a civ.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#36

Post by ika »

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I think a no info-dumping rule is a necessity in open setup games with a large number of special roles, especially when everyone has a special role. I don't think there's any way to arrange a game like that with roleclaiming and info-dumping without it being broken. That's a unique appeal to this culture because open setup role madness genuinely isn't even a thing in many other places.
Realistically i agree, but playing devil's advocate on this in general, that could also be a reasons why it causes so much strife for people. Not only that but into a bigger issue is getting people. As you said yourself, it isn't in many other places and could the the thing in itself that is a "deterrent" to people. If anything i would like to see more games that allow mass claim. And scums could be provided a false claim. Now it doesn't work in open as you are saying but in something like closed/semi-open
I don't think it's a necessity in a closed setup or in a vanilla-heavy open setup. It can still be employed though under certain circumstances. Any host who embraces that philosophy is fine by me. I do think that it might mean certain other tweaks will be needed though elsewhere in the rules or design to rebalance the game -- perhaps one less mafia member, or stronger town roles; the possibilities are endless.
I agree on this too, there are a near infinite possibilities but us hosts have to find the fine line between balanced and fun and sometimes i feel like that line gets blurred by what people are defining as "fun" and what is defined as "balanced" an example would be turf wars where IMO, i felt like town couldn't really win cus they had to lynch the gfs, but one GF was super town that he would never get lynched and the other was POEd out. After that town had no way of really "eliminating" the GF and win. While i do think the game was tons of fun (especially the prison yard mechanic), i felt like the ballance was a little skewed onto the scum side. I still need to go back and offer improvements and suggestions to what could help it run better.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#37

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Here's another addition to role-use: silencer, post-restriction, and/or insanifier roles or mechanics.

As a civilian, it is extremely disheartening to be told you can't post for 48 hours. When a civilian gets such a role, they should be careful how they use it. For example, these two roles were in Downton, and LoRab and Dom used them effectively. They targeted players that they suspected, but sometimes didn't use their abilities if they weren't feeling strongly about their suspicions.

On the other hand, in Turf Wars, I was post-restricted for two consecutive days before being nightkilled thereafter. I did enjoy that game otherwise, but that is my one complaint about that one.
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Dragon D. Luffy wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:33 pm Just how many days of "let's yeet them tomorrow" can a mafioso survive?

The answer: all of them, if you are a marmot.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#38

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Speaking of 48 hour days, a number of people prefer them, but don't use them. They "catch up", post, and vote in the last few hours of the Day.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#39

Post by S~V~S »

Metalmarsh89 wrote:Here's another addition to role-use: silencer, post-restriction, and/or insanifier roles or mechanics.

As a civilian, it is extremely disheartening to be told you can't post for 48 hours. When a civilian gets such a role, they should be careful how they use it. For example, these two roles were in Downton, and LoRab and Dom used them effectively. They targeted players that they suspected, but sometimes didn't use their abilities if they weren't feeling strongly about their suspicions.

On the other hand, in Turf Wars, I was post-restricted for two consecutive days before being nightkilled thereafter. I did enjoy that game otherwise, but that is my one complaint about that one.
I HATE silencing. HATE IT. Noting ruins games for civs like being silenced. I don't know why any host would want a mechanic that reduces posting, interest and keeps people from voting. I won't have it in my games, and won't allow it to be used as a curse for curser roles. I so strongly prefer curses & insanities.

The best use of silencing for a civ is to protect people, although recently the taboo against lynching the silenced has worn off becasue a few baddies have self silenced. In a game at RM I silenced DP several times cause I knew he was civ, and the baddies kept making moves towards him re "let's lynch low posters". But yeah, I especially don't understand silencing as a civvie power.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#40

Post by Epignosis »

S~V~S wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:Here's another addition to role-use: silencer, post-restriction, and/or insanifier roles or mechanics.

As a civilian, it is extremely disheartening to be told you can't post for 48 hours. When a civilian gets such a role, they should be careful how they use it. For example, these two roles were in Downton, and LoRab and Dom used them effectively. They targeted players that they suspected, but sometimes didn't use their abilities if they weren't feeling strongly about their suspicions.

On the other hand, in Turf Wars, I was post-restricted for two consecutive days before being nightkilled thereafter. I did enjoy that game otherwise, but that is my one complaint about that one.
I HATE silencing. HATE IT. Noting ruins games for civs like being silenced. I don't know why any host would want a mechanic that reduces posting, interest and keeps people from voting. I won't have it in my games, and won't allow it to be used as a curse for curser roles. I so strongly prefer curses & insanities.

The best use of silencing for a civ is to protect people, although recently the taboo against lynching the silenced has worn off becasue a few baddies have self silenced. In a game at RM I silenced DP several times cause I knew he was civ, and the baddies kept making moves towards him re "let's lynch low posters". But yeah, I especially don't understand silencing as a civvie power.
I remember in my first hosting experience here, I silenced half my players for eating spiders and you were like, "Dude, you just silenced half your players."

:haha:

At least I didn't modkill them like MP. :meany:
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#41

Post by S~V~S »

Yeah, that one game, 9 with one modkill. All of them civvies XD

I lol'ed
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#42

Post by S~V~S »

He just likes killing people; MP the Killer Accountant.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#43

Post by ika »

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
I've pointed this out before, but (until Turf Wars), a mafia team of more than 4 players has never won on the Syndicate. The big teams always end up losing. It's the games where there's two mafia teams, or one mafia team and an Indy team, or several Indy roles and a mafia team, where the mafia usually wins. But such games are very common here.

Games with two mafia teams give mafia a legitimate chance to act like a civilian. They don't have to fake their scumhunting, because they do truly want to lynch players that civilians also want to lynch. I think this is another reason why mafia tend to win more here, since this format is very common.

I wonder about this though. I wonder if revealing alignments of nightkilled players in such games would offer some counterbalance to that. Not roles, just alignments. :ponder:
I do have to say, when you make multi-ball game, it does get more swingy. I would say multiball can make the game much more scum-sided as well.

As for the revealing alignment. I would like to see that more, i think it would only be useful in a multiball game though.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#44

Post by ika »

On the meta issue: i agree if people use it too much that they will get overtaken one game. Funny enough as much as i say i use meta, i only use it very little. If anything i use it as a baseline to start a read. Even with silver, i dont like to think when it comes ot reading her its not about meta, but about her as a person

On the trust issue: i have already touched on that and how town doesn't find town and just paranoias themselves to a conspiracy theory of the impossible scum teams

on silencer/restrictions: it should be a scum aligned role. Frankly there is literally no town utility to removing a town voice, right or not. The moment you remove a town's power to vote and speak you have basically removed an entire town player for that 48 hrs. Me and silver have talked about it extensively on other sites and after downtown abbey. It does nobody any real favors in long run. If the role is scum aligned i can 100% understand its utility but for town to not only remove speaking powers but voting powers seems like you have a negative utility role that should never be used.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#45

Post by Silverwolf »

ika wrote: on silencer/restrictions: it should be a scum aligned role. Frankly there is literally no town utility to removing a town voice, right or not. The moment you remove a town's power to vote and speak you have basically removed an entire town player for that 48 hrs. Me and silver have talked about it extensively on other sites and after downtown abbey. It does nobody any real favors in long run. If the role is scum aligned i can 100% understand its utility but for town to not only remove speaking powers but voting powers seems like you have a negative utility role that should never be used.
This, so much this. There is nothing more frustrating than having your voice and your vote-a major power for town-taken away by a town role. That just seems negative utility. But for scum to be able to do it, makes sense.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#46

Post by A Person »

ika wrote:On the meta issue: i agree if people use it too much that they will get overtaken one game. Funny enough as much as i say i use meta, i only use it very little. If anything i use it as a baseline to start a read. Even with silver, i dont like to think when it comes ot reading her its not about meta, but about her as a person
What if this is part of your meta game? :mafia:
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#47

Post by ika »

A Person wrote:
ika wrote:On the meta issue: i agree if people use it too much that they will get overtaken one game. Funny enough as much as i say i use meta, i only use it very little. If anything i use it as a baseline to start a read. Even with silver, i dont like to think when it comes ot reading her its not about meta, but about her as a person
What if this is part of your meta game? :mafia:
Clarify?
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#48

Post by A Person »

ika wrote:
A Person wrote:
ika wrote:On the meta issue: i agree if people use it too much that they will get overtaken one game. Funny enough as much as i say i use meta, i only use it very little. If anything i use it as a baseline to start a read. Even with silver, i dont like to think when it comes ot reading her its not about meta, but about her as a person
What if this is part of your meta game? :mafia:
Clarify?
What if yours, or others, posts in this thread are a part of your meta game meant to influence future mafia games?
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#49

Post by ika »

A Person wrote: What if yours, or others, posts in this thread are a part of your meta game meant to influence future mafia games?
Then we are not having a discussion and are going into a WIFOM argument.

I do think that the discussion will change how mafia games are designed overall (as JJJ pointed out with his site before it did something of the sort) but rereading your point, i would not be surprised if something comes of this thread
Last edited by ika on Wed May 18, 2016 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Win rates by faction on The Syndicate

#50

Post by A Person »

ika wrote:
A Person wrote: What if yours, or others, posts in this thread are a part of your meta game meant to influence future mafia games?
Then we are not having a discussion and are going into a WIFOM argument.
Ah, I predicted this, to call something a WIFOM argument is the oldest meta game of all!
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