Mafia Theory

[Epignosis]

I try to be a Deist host. Make the game to the extent that you can, reveal to the extent that you can, and then let it go and let the players take over.

[Dom]

I dig it. And I don't dislike open setups. I have much less experience with them, but they're just as fun. The obvious cultural differences were probably what drew me here the most. The only standard here that I think I'd genuinely struggle with (and haven't seen yet) is the one that doesn't allow dead players to win the game.

Win conditions are totally up to the host.

I've been debating whether I should let the last 10 civilians alive win instead of just the surviving ones (or some number...). This would allow more talkative, but killed, civilians to win.

[Marmot]

I dig it. And I don't dislike open setups. I have much less experience with them, but they're just as fun. The obvious cultural differences were probably what drew me here the most. The only standard here that I think I'd genuinely struggle with (and haven't seen yet) is the one that doesn't allow dead players to win the game.

Win conditions are totally up to the host.

I've been debating whether I should let the last 10 civilians alive win instead of just the surviving ones (or some number...). This would allow more talkative, but killed, civilians to win.

What about that civilian who does everything right, and gets NK'd on Night 1 as a result?

[Turnip Head]

I dig it. And I don't dislike open setups. I have much less experience with them, but they're just as fun. The obvious cultural differences were probably what drew me here the most. The only standard here that I think I'd genuinely struggle with (and haven't seen yet) is the one that doesn't allow dead players to win the game.

Win conditions are totally up to the host.

I've been debating whether I should let the last 10 civilians alive win instead of just the surviving ones (or some number...). This would allow more talkative, but killed, civilians to win.

What about that civilian who does everything right, and gets NK'd on Night 1 as a result?

Then you did something wrong.

[S~V~S]

I always do win with your team, dead or alive. I think it encourages more risk taking, and outrageous ballsy ploys. Only winning alive, especially forcivs, encourages playing to survive rather than playing to win. Blendiness, meh.

[Dom]

I dig it. And I don't dislike open setups. I have much less experience with them, but they're just as fun. The obvious cultural differences were probably what drew me here the most. The only standard here that I think I'd genuinely struggle with (and haven't seen yet) is the one that doesn't allow dead players to win the game.

Win conditions are totally up to the host.

I've been debating whether I should let the last 10 civilians alive win instead of just the surviving ones (or some number...). This would allow more talkative, but killed, civilians to win.

What about that civilian who does everything right, and gets NK'd on Night 1 as a result?

Did you do everything right, then?

[XthAtGAm3RGuYX]

Implying you can control why mafia kill you.

I've night killed people just because I thought their avatar was stupid.

[Epignosis]

Implying you can control why mafia kill you.

I've night killed people just because I thought their avatar was stupid.

Says the guy with the stupidest, grainiest picture of Hsien-Ko.

[XthAtGAm3RGuYX]

Implying you can control why mafia kill you.

I've night killed people just because I thought their avatar was stupid.

Says the guy with the stupidest, grainiest picture of Hsien-Ko.

Your inferior 150x150 av sizes are to blame for that

[Tangrowth]

I dig it. And I don't dislike open setups. I have much less experience with them, but they're just as fun. The obvious cultural differences were probably what drew me here the most. The only standard here that I think I'd genuinely struggle with (and haven't seen yet) is the one that doesn't allow dead players to win the game.

Win conditions are totally up to the host.

I've been debating whether I should let the last 10 civilians alive win instead of just the surviving ones (or some number...). This would allow more talkative, but killed, civilians to win.

This is an interesting twist, I like it.

Addressing MM's concern, what about the 10 civilians with the most posts? I suppose that could encourage more quantity than quality though.

[Epignosis]

Implying you can control why mafia kill you.

I've night killed people just because I thought their avatar was stupid.

Says the guy with the stupidest, grainiest picture of Hsien-Ko.

Your inferior 150x150 av sizes are to blame for that

Well she sucks anyway because Anakaris was always cooler.

Even if he couldn't fight.

[XthAtGAm3RGuYX]

Implying you can control why mafia kill you.

I've night killed people just because I thought their avatar was stupid.

Says the guy with the stupidest, grainiest picture of Hsien-Ko.

Your inferior 150x150 av sizes are to blame for that

Well she sucks anyway because Anakaris was always cooler.

Even if he couldn't fight.

>Anakaris
>cooler than anybody not named Rikuo, Phobos, or Sasquatch

That's, like, your opinion, man.

[Epignosis]

I predict a Darkstalkers cohosting in our future?

[XthAtGAm3RGuYX]

I predict a Darkstalkers cohosting in our future?

Perhaps. Our differences of opinion for mafia mechanics may be a bit of an obstacle, but im sure we could work past it.

Darkstalkers would be a super small game. Not that many characters, unless roleless civs are just regular ass humans. Then it could be whatever size we want.

[Marmot]

I dig it. And I don't dislike open setups. I have much less experience with them, but they're just as fun. The obvious cultural differences were probably what drew me here the most. The only standard here that I think I'd genuinely struggle with (and haven't seen yet) is the one that doesn't allow dead players to win the game.

Win conditions are totally up to the host.

I've been debating whether I should let the last 10 civilians alive win instead of just the surviving ones (or some number...). This would allow more talkative, but killed, civilians to win.

What about that civilian who does everything right, and gets NK'd on Night 1 as a result?

Did you do everything right, then?

Of course I did!

[Long Con]

Implying you can control why mafia kill you.

I've night killed people just because I thought their avatar was stupid.

Says the guy with the stupidest, grainiest picture of Hsien-Ko.

Your inferior 150x150 av sizes are to blame for that

[XthAtGAm3RGuYX]

snip

Thanks man

[Ricochet]

Inspired by the tale of Goldenlot and Balaaman.

Simple proposal, really:
Civilians that form a BTSC team within a game should win the game as a team, if one of them survives the game and achieves the win condition.

Civs with BTSC is always a frequent feature within the design of a mafia game (at least around here), involving two or three players, meant to balance the BTSC the mafia has, so why should it not have the same priviledges? The teamwork of civilians with BTSC should be rewarded the same way the Mafia's teamwork is, when they win a game. The dead cilivian often gets to stay in BTSC with his teammate and aid him throughout the rest of the game.

This does not include temporary BTSCs (anonymous or not) and other forms of BTSC achieved through other abilities, except for role searching (civilians that are meant from the beginning to find themselves and gain BTSC) - although, depending on the mechanics of each game, it could still slightly be up to the Host, depending on how strongly that achieved BTSC would affect the civilians' gameplay.

Please discuss (and consider implementing).

[Long Con]

I am comfortable with the idea. OF course, it's up to individual Hosts to decide if it makes sense for their own game, but I dig it.

[Tangrowth]

I am comfortable with the idea. OF course, it's up to individual Hosts to decide if it makes sense for their own game, but I dig it.

I echo this sentiment completely. I think it's a neat idea, Rico!

I think Hosts should definitely feel creative in awarding wins out to players in whatever way they feel fit.

[Marmot]

What about BTSC after death?

This is the second Epignosis game I've played this year where I gained BTSC after I died, but did not have it before. In the Championship game, I was entirely dead, but SVS had a role that allowed her to gain temporary BTSC with me for a full day. In this Biblical Mafia game, I did actually get to play a part in the game, even though I was still dead.

I realize this sort of thing is quite rare though. One just needs to have a knack for getting themselves killed early on as a civilian.

[Ricochet]

What about BTSC after death?

This is the second Epignosis game I've played this year where I gained BTSC after I died, but did not have it before. In the Championship game, I was entirely dead, but SVS had a role that allowed her to gain temporary BTSC with me for a full day. In this Biblical Mafia game, I did actually get to play a part in the game, even though I was still dead.

I realize this sort of thing is quite rare though. One just needs to have a knack for getting themselves killed early on as a civilian.

As I've said, temporary stuff is temporary, so it's probably not the same thing.

Your BTSC with me in Biblical is also not the same thing, because I was not civilian. Your new win condition was not civilian-esque, either.

[Marmot]

Temporary BTSC - I don't think this should allow players to win together, especially if a civilian role gains BTSC with a member of the baddie team. It wouldn't make sense.

Extended or Permanent BTSC - I think it makes sense for these teams to win together. They generally work together as a team. In fact, the only difference between a civilian BTSC team and a mafia BTSC team is the alignment. But since it is easier to win this way, I think some hosts will either de-power these teams since the BTSC itself gives each member the knowledge of others' roles, or they will include special win conditions for these teams to acheive.

[Tangrowth]

Alright, so inspired by Rico's recent BTSC Civ Win thread, what do you guys think of implementing dead player BTSC in games to keep deadies more involved?

It seems this is much more common at other sites, since I've never played a game here with an official deadie chat. It was so much fun to participate in the Champs Game 3 spectator chat (which was spoiler-free), so I'm hoping to start incorporating this into some of my games going forward.

Of course, one has to keep in mind mechanics that could affect this (resurrections, etc.). Thoughts?

[Ricochet]

Agreed with temporary BTSC, but again, this only concerns civ - civ BTSC. Civs gaining BTSC with baddies falls under recruitement, alignment switches, etc.

I don't see why the civs with BTSC would need to be de-powered. Usually their only ability is having BTSC itself. If it's more complicated than that, then yes, it's more debateable - EDIT: but not by much, because, again, the mafia can usually have BTSC and have individual powers and it's seen as fair for them to still win together. Balance would be kept in case of civs BTSC with extra powers as well.

[Roxy]

Before Donner Party there was The Haunted House on The Piano Hill - an open btsc extravaganza.

Poor baddies never stood a chance and taught me plenty for Donner Party and my upcoming unannounced Whore Mod Mafia game.

[G-Man]

When Epi told me I could still communicate with Golden via BTSC after I died, I was shocked. I had never played in a game before where BTSC continued after death. Is this a relatively recent development or was I just not paying attention back in the day?

[Marmot]

There are some roles that allow a civilian to gain temporary BTSC with a player each night. I had that role in Economics (before the reassignment).

If three players start the game with BTSC together, that is essentially 6 total role checks (2 for each player) plus the game-long BTSC. That is an incredibly powerful combination, albeit split among 3 players. But if each of the players had a power on top of that, they have the option of conversing amongst themselves how to use them (something a solo civilian would struggle with), and having the knowledge of how those actions were used.

I'm not saying they should be vanilla, but the most powerful civilian players should generally not have BTSC. Of course, this depends on what kind of other balancing factors there are in the game, so obviously a blanket statement would be inaccurate.

[Marmot]

When Epi told me I could still communicate with Golden via BTSC after I died, I was shocked. I had never played in a game before where BTSC continued after death. Is this a relatively recent development or was I just not paying attention back in the day?

That's pretty common around these parts. Every game I've played allowed players to keep BTSC after death, assuming they would normally.

[Ricochet]

Massive civilian BTSC or games with open BTSC rather than restricted fall under a special category, methinks.

The easiest way would be to think about when you sketch the game and write down two or three particular civilians having BTSC from the very start (or gaining upon role search). That kind of civ team should implicitly win as a team, if at least one of them accomplishes the win.

linki @ G-Man: Oh, that's actually interesting. I considered that you being allowed to still BTSC with Golden was a normal thing. Sorry if I was mistaken. I never played as a civ...with BTSC...or without

I still think it could be considered, overall.

linki @ MM: Got it, but that's why I pointed out usually BTSC civs don't get additional powers. Their BTSC is their power.

[Tangrowth]

When Epi told me I could still communicate with Golden via BTSC after I died, I was shocked. I had never played in a game before where BTSC continued after death. Is this a relatively recent development or was I just not paying attention back in the day?

Depends on the host, for sure.

[G-Man]

When Epi told me I could still communicate with Golden via BTSC after I died, I was shocked. I had never played in a game before where BTSC continued after death. Is this a relatively recent development or was I just not paying attention back in the day?

That's pretty common around these parts. Every game I've played allowed players to keep BTSC after death, assuming they would normally.

Okay, interesting. I was feeling really guilty about being able to help Golden/Lot for the first day or two after I died because I had never been able to do that before. Then I guess it dawned on me that the dead Heathens were probably helping their remaining players too and it was game on.

[Black Rock]

Alright, so inspired by Rico's recent BTSC Civ Win thread, what do you guys think of implementing dead player BTSC in games to keep deadies more involved?

It seems this is much more common at other sites, since I've never played a game here with an official deadie chat. It was so much fun to participate in the Champs Game 3 spectator chat (which was spoiler-free), so I'm hoping to start incorporating this into some of my games going forward.

Of course, one has to keep in mind mechanics that could affect this (resurrections, etc.). Thoughts?

I have seen it done. If you have a rez in the game then the rules should be strict. By strict I mean no role outing roles that have not been revealed or no rez. That way the game can be discussed without compromising the players.

[Tangrowth]

Rico, do you mind if I merge this with the Mafia Theory thread? Seems fitting, especially since the conversation is developing in a way that I think fits that thread perfectly.

I heavily encourage such discussion.

[timmer]

At awardswatch, where I've run two games, the mods have often created a deadie btsc thread, but it almost never gets used. Keep in mind that awardswatch is predominantly a website devoted to rabid film discussion and following the festival and awards circuits (and apparently looking at pics of hot guys), so mafia isn't really why most people are there.

On an actual mafia site, I think a deadie btsc room could not only be fun, but it would get heavily perused. Two problems, though.

1. A dead mafioso could only be a part of a general dead thread if there is no info allowed to be mentioned in it, OR, if he renounces his btsc with his living baddie teammates.

2. A dead room has to have a rule about info sharing if there is ANY chance of a player being rezzed.

Other than that, yay-uh!

[Ricochet]

Sure thing!

[Tangrowth]

Sure thing!

So the result was a bit messy, since I started a conversation in here simultaneously :P but voila!

[Tangrowth]

Re: dead BTSC

Spoiler: show

Alright, so inspired by Rico's recent BTSC Civ Win thread, what do you guys think of implementing dead player BTSC in games to keep deadies more involved?

It seems this is much more common at other sites, since I've never played a game here with an official deadie chat. It was so much fun to participate in the Champs Game 3 spectator chat (which was spoiler-free), so I'm hoping to start incorporating this into some of my games going forward.

Of course, one has to keep in mind mechanics that could affect this (resurrections, etc.). Thoughts?

I have seen it done. If you have a rez in the game then the rules should be strict. By strict I mean no role outing roles that have not been revealed or no rez. That way the game can be discussed without compromising the players.

Spoiler: show

At awardswatch, where I've run two games, the mods have often created a deadie btsc thread, but it almost never gets used. Keep in mind that awardswatch is predominantly a website devoted to rabid film discussion and following the festival and awards circuits (and apparently looking at pics of hot guys), so mafia isn't really why most people are there.

On an actual mafia site, I think a deadie btsc room could not only be fun, but it would get heavily perused. Two problems, though.

1. A dead mafioso could only be a part of a general dead thread if there is no info allowed to be mentioned in it, OR, if he renounces his btsc with his living baddie teammates.

2. A dead room has to have a rule about info sharing if there is ANY chance of a player being rezzed.

Other than that, yay-uh!

Thanks for the input, BR and timmer!

I definitely think it'd help give dead players more investment in the game and would be fun.

[Roxy]

I love the idea of Dead Chat - would also be cool for spectators! Like GoC - 2X2 used Skype.

I will be tring it for sure!

[Tangrowth]

Agreed with temporary BTSC, but again, this only concerns civ - civ BTSC. Civs gaining BTSC with baddies falls under recruitement, alignment switches, etc.

I don't see why the civs with BTSC would need to be de-powered. Usually their only ability is having BTSC itself. If it's more complicated than that, then yes, it's more debateable - EDIT: but not by much, because, again, the mafia can usually have BTSC and have individual powers and it's seen as fair for them to still win together. Balance would be kept in case of civs BTSC with extra powers as well.

Regarding BTSC, I echo this sentiment.

And to provide some more context, G-Man, I think I recall many of the games I played on LP, TP, etc. having disallowed BTSC once you're dead, but I began allowing dead BTSC in my games, and others I brought here from ProgArchives (such as Epi, Llama) did the same, so it started becoming more commonplace as time went on.

[S~V~S]

I think a dead thread and rezzes are mutually incompatible. I was thinking of using one in Stoners, which would eliminate rezzes. But with my win cons of win with your team dead or alive, rezzes lose value. I would think that Baddie chat ends at death. Juliets & I had a dead chat in Dogma years ago, Moobyworld, and that group had an impact on the game. We had a super active Mooby, Golden, who kept it vital. The deadies need something to do, or to have an impact, IMO, for it to work as other than a spoiled spectator chat.

I love the idea, though, and look forward to experimenting with it.

[Ricochet]

What's the logic behind locking the game thread during the Night, in classic games? I mean, is there one, relating to game balance, or it is just a traditional "at Night, the town sleeps and the mafia schemes/executes" flavour?

If I am to allow the mafia team only Night-time BTSC, is it then absolutely necessary for town to be allowed only Day-time gaming?

[Marmot]

What's the logic behind locking the game thread during the Night, in classic games? I mean, is there one, relating to game balance, or it is just a traditional "at Night, the town sleeps and the mafia schemes/executes" flavour?

If I am to allow the mafia team only Night-time BTSC, is it then absolutely necessary for town to be allowed only Day-time gaming?

It's a traditional part of the original mafia game. After the townie's lynched somebody during the day, they all go home to sleep at night while mafia congregates secretly and discusses who to nightkill. Same reason mafia doesn't have daytime BTSC in this game, the civilians are watching.

[S~V~S]

Yeah, when it is played live, there are no other real options.

[Ricochet]

So... no balance necessities, I take it.