What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#121

Post by Epignosis »

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
S~V~S wrote:I think it is better to give a win to 10 people who did not deserve it than to deny it to one person in the winning faction who did, tbh.
:clap:
Agreed. Could you imagine if you and I were the only winners at the end of Talking Heads Mafia? We were the only two players to survive. That would have been devastating to many who did deserve it.
I probably wouldn't accept the banner because my role would be a literal cheat code with that rule in place. :P

To be fair, if I were to play in such a game my methods would be very different. I would be much more selfish and probably a lot less useful, but I'd still want to win the game -- even if at the expense of people who think they're aligned with me.
Trust me, if anyone should be staunchly in the "Win Dead or Alive" camp, it's me. I get Night killed all the time, especially when I'm on the right track. But like I said, I'm only averse to it when there's info involved + an open setup. My view comes from many examples when a civilian effectively outed himself or dumped info into the thread to score the win. That method takes no skill whatsoever, and spoils the game for the Mafia. Mafia should have the recourse to punish the info-dumper and take away his win (as well as remove his ability from the game).

In a closed setup with a cop (i.e., the cop isn't tied to one specific role), it's different because the civilians have to work together in trying to steer the Mafia's kill away from the cop on top of catching the Mafia. This worked out perfectly in Arrested Development, and the entire civilian team deserved the win.

I like both setups, and I think both types of win conditions have their place.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#122

Post by Dragon D. Luffy »

Metalmarsh89 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Dragon D. Luffy wrote:Public lie detectors as a whole, honestly.

A non-public LD is essentially a weaker cop, so it can be dealt with even if it can be used every day.

A public one is so OP it hurts.
I have a standing rule that I refuse to make statements for the purpose of being checked by the lie detector- my alignment matters not.
When I am mafia, I enjoy making obvious lie-detectable statements with the expectation that the lie-detector will not call my bluff. :D
Honestly if I ever get a cop role here you'll be a top 3 priority for investigation. Including lie detect. :smoky:
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#123

Post by Dragon D. Luffy »

Sloonei wrote:I don't like restricting win conditions only to those (town/civ) players left alive at the end of the game. I like to play the game in reverse, looking for townies instead of bad guys, and most of my strategy is heavy on townie teamwork. Only counting people as winners if they stay alive until the end discourages this in some ways.

I expect this will not be a popular opinion here :)
I agree with this point.

I do think it can be beneficial in some situations, like Epi's Watchmen game, because it allowed for some different wincons.

But as a general town rule? Meh.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#124

Post by Epignosis »

I don't usually share my...strategies in Mafia, but the wine tonight has warmed me, and I'm feeling generous.

On the rare occasion that I nab a lie detector role or a role check, I almost always check a female player.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#125

Post by Dragon D. Luffy »

S~V~S wrote:
Law wrote:I will never host a game where Townies or Mafiosos need to be alive in order to win.

That type of win-condition belongs in 3rd party/Independent faction, not the main two. Sometimes sacrificing yourself is the smart play, and you should win with your team.

I'd rather take wins away from players who stayed alive but didn't deserve to win than those who played hard for their team, but got killed for it.
I totally agree. No guts no glory. I think people take bigger risks and play harder if they don't have to be alive. In games where people have to be alive I think they worry too much about staying alive to take chances and make big plays.

Another think I dislike is protector roles that can protect themselves. My protectors usually have an NK protection built in, and are required to protect others.
I don't mind it as long as you forbid them from targeting the same player twice in a row (including themselves).

Because it kills cop-doctor combos as a bonus. And any doctor combo that would allow some player to be immortal.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#126

Post by S~V~S »

Epignosis wrote:I don't usually share my...strategies in Mafia, but the wine tonight has warmed me, and I'm feeling generous.

On the rare occasion that I nab a lie detector role or a role check, I almost always check a female player.
This is kinda creepy, lol. Why?
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#127

Post by Ricochet »

S~V~S wrote:
I think it is better to give a win to 10 people who did not deserve it than to deny it to one person in the winning faction who did, tbh.
While I must note beforehand that I have so far never expressed any opinion on whether any player "deserved to win" a game or not (although you know who you are), nor did I feel the need on even a handful of occasions to privately judge a player's performance in such words, if the hypothetical situation would be "I won a game together with 10 people who did not deserve it", I would profoundly dislike the 10 wins granted to those who did not deserve it. Civs, mafia, indies, no distinction. You don't play, I don't like. There's absolutely no variation to this, as far as I'm concerned.

On a personal level, if I would die on Day/Night 1 and win with the rest of the civilians after a 12-cycle confrontation or so, such victory would feel completely hollow. Granted, the further into a game I'd fall as a victim, the more losing would very likely start to ache.

I don't feel that Talking Heads is a pertinent example, because it was announced from the get go that it would be DoA - and it being a crossover game with RYM, it wasn't expected to be anything other than that. That beind said, yes, losing the game on Day Fifteen would have been devastating. Would losing the game have had the same impact for Epignosis, a Night 9 victim, though? Dunno, maybe? Would losing the game have had the same impact for a Night 4 victim? How 'bout Night 1?

Epignosis's point of view is quite good. Come to think of it, I've still witnessed cases, even in "survive to win" games, in which civs or neutrals cracked under lynch pressure, getting as close as rolehinting as "legally" possible. Which faction never does that? The one that can always wins as a team. Mafia.

Anyway, for new or conservative players, I could suggest perhaps embracing at least one game that's designed in this fashion (whether you participate or you design it yourself), to get a sense if the disentchantment of losing a game in such way is real or not. For instance, have we actually had civilian complaints or bitter afterthoughts about losing the game due to being killed?

Otherwise, I actually feel the dead-or-alive format is gaining serious ground on the Syndicate, so supporters of this should feel positive about the outlook, they're kinda winning with their cause.

One last factor that I consider relevant to this is the Hall of Fame rankings, which, for some reason, I still value [I'm undergoing therapy to get over it, though]. I have 5 wins, each and every one having absolute sentimental value for me. Instead, I have 7 losses [not sure if Arrested Development counts as an eighth, and I frankly hope not] out of which only one do I consider to have been out of bad luck / bad odds [hint: I was mafia] and six don't stack up one bit to any great performance or legacy in my books. Technically, the civilian faction never actually won a single game of these six I myself lost, so I can't really build a statement of how me not winning with them would have felt disappointing, lol.

But back to the Rankings, they probably require to be slowly devalued by the increase in wins that Heists and Dead-or-Alive formats will influence - which is, again, already happening. I project that in another year or so, the overall leaders will have like 30 wins to their name, at which point these rankings themselves will lose any meaning they had, for instance, during the two-three years in which the victors were few and the ranks were tight.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#128

Post by S~V~S »

If I played my ass off for 10 days, got NKed night 10, and my civs won day 11, I deserved to win.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#129

Post by JaggedJimmyJay »

I've never really perceived wins and losses to be highly indicative of a player's skill level. I remember a guy on RYM who played a lot when I was new (RedMosquito to those who would know); he influenced me a lot then with his style and approach to the game. I believe he started his Mafia "career" 0-13.

At the risk of sounding like I'm full of crap, the joy of winning for me is always in the teamwork -- whether I'm town or bad. I love to share the glory with everyone and don't really take much personal pride in it. Nothing in Mafia makes me feel better than knowing I was on a team that worked together, played with respect, and found a way to win against a tough group of opponents. I think that's why I'm always playing the role of cheerleader or coach and annoying everyone. :P

I've never won a game with an independent role before so I don't really know how that feels; in my few opportunities I was more interested in just having fun and screwing around than actually winning.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#130

Post by Ricochet »

S~V~S wrote:If I played my ass off for 10 days, got NKed night 10, and my civs won day 11, I deserved to win.
Not the point I was making, but sure. (In fact, I myself noted that the emotional loss in such scenario would indeed be very high, under be alive rules.)

What about playing your ass off for 1 day, get NKd night 1, and your civs won day 11?

What about playing your ass off for 1 day, get lynched day 1, and your civs won day 11?

Also, "my" civs, heh. Always worth a chuckle when civs actually believe they're a team. Then they go shoot each other in the foot more often than not.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#131

Post by JaggedJimmyJay »

Ricochet wrote:Always worth a chuckle when civs actually believe they're a team.
That's probably the center of this philosophical disagreement.

I think civilians are as much of a team as any other faction (though they wouldn't be a team in a survive-only win condition since they'd have to compete with one another to survive). In my experience, towns that play like they're a team win a whole lot more often than towns filled with people trying to solve the game on their own.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#132

Post by Epignosis »

S~V~S wrote:
Epignosis wrote:I don't usually share my...strategies in Mafia, but the wine tonight has warmed me, and I'm feeling generous.

On the rare occasion that I nab a lie detector role or a role check, I almost always check a female player.
This is kinda creepy, lol. Why?
There are several reasons, none of which are creepy (or sexist):

First, females get lynched at a significantly lower ratio than males do. It takes much, much more effort to get a female lynched than a male, especially early in the game. Matt, sig, MetalMarsh89, thellama73- all favorite Day 1-2-3 lynch targets. Can you name any females who are favorite Day 1-2-3 lynch targets? Me neither. It's much easier to get a lynch going on a dude than it is on, say, juliets or bea. I think guys are generally more reluctant to show aggression toward a female early on, and males far outnumber females here, so I see this as a natural dynamic.

Second, while I have established a mental catalog of male Mafia tells over the years (which are becoming less useful, I'm willing to admit), females generally say things that make me suspicious of them, with only a few of them having specific traits that I can point to and say "A ha!" Think about yourself- how often do I go after you when we are both good? There have been a few times when I walked into a game and said "I am not going to accuse S~V~S," and I ended up doing it because what you said was something I found so outside my thinking, I couldn't help myself (Lost Again was the most recent example of this).

Third, if I find that the target is good or telling the truth, it's much easier to support a female than a male in the thread (again, in general). A number of guys straight up want to crucify you for supporting their view, backing them up, defending them, etc. They are much swifter to condemn you of "buddying." Another thing that backs this up? I rarely see guys tear into each other for supporting a female, but will have no qualms doing so for supporting a male. It's uncanny.

In summary, info on a female player tends to be more valuable to me than another male player.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#133

Post by Epignosis »

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Ricochet wrote:Always worth a chuckle when civs actually believe they're a team.
That's probably the center of this philosophical disagreement.

I think civilians are as much of a team as any other faction (though they wouldn't be a team in a survive-only win condition since they'd have to compete with one another to survive). In my experience, towns that play like they're a team win a whole lot more often than towns filled with people trying to solve the game on their own.
Again, I think it depends on the type of game you've got going.

A primitive solution to an open setup in which one person had info would be this: The civilians win dead or alive, but the role checker must be alive at the end to win. An experimental compromise...
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#134

Post by Marmot »

S~V~S wrote:If I played my ass off for 10 days, got NKed night 10, and my civs won day 11, I deserved to win.
True, and most players who have played here longer than the last 9 months have probably experienced a game where they played their hearts out and played well, but didn't win with their faction merely because they died.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#135

Post by Turnip Head »

This debate is why I'm a big proponent of MVP awards or (something I haven't tried yet) alternate win conditions. MVP can recognize someone who didn't make it to the end but was a vital part of the winning team. Conversely if the game allows dead civilians to win it can recognize the player who was most instrumental in that victory.

Alternate win conditions would be cool in a situation where a civilian dies but the team still won, and this player was able to accomplish such and such, so they still win.

As The Syndicate evolves I think we'll see more stuff like this.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#136

Post by thellama73 »

Epignosis wrote: There are several reasons, none of which are creepy (or sexist):

First, females get lynched at a significantly lower ratio than males do. It takes much, much more effort to get a female lynched than a male, especially early in the game. Matt, sig, MetalMarsh89, thellama73- all favorite Day 1-2-3 lynch targets. Can you name any females who are favorite Day 1-2-3 lynch targets? Me neither. It's much easier to get a lynch going on a dude than it is on, say, juliets or bea. I think guys are generally more reluctant to show aggression toward a female early on, and males far outnumber females here, so I see this as a natural dynamic.

Second, while I have established a mental catalog of male Mafia tells over the years (which are becoming less useful, I'm willing to admit), females generally say things that make me suspicious of them, with only a few of them having specific traits that I can point to and say "A ha!" Think about yourself- how often do I go after you when we are both good? There have been a few times when I walked into a game and said "I am not going to accuse S~V~S," and I ended up doing it because what you said was something I found so outside my thinking, I couldn't help myself (Lost Again was the most recent example of this).

Third, if I find that the target is good or telling the truth, it's much easier to support a female than a male in the thread (again, in general). A number of guys straight up want to crucify you for supporting their view, backing them up, defending them, etc. They are much swifter to condemn you of "buddying." Another thing that backs this up? I rarely see guys tear into each other for supporting a female, but will have no qualms doing so for supporting a male. It's uncanny.

In summary, info on a female player tends to be more valuable to me than another male player.
This is fascinating to me, because I've never explicitly thought of it before, but now that you said it I totally agree with all of it. I always think SVS is bad. I always think Elohcin is bad. Their posting style reads bad to me no matter what. I cant think of any males that always read that way to me.
Epignosis wrote:If llama is good, it means we exist in a universe in which multitasking llama can call out the first of two mafia while simultaneously calling out two civilians.

I don't want to live in that universe.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#137

Post by G-Man »

The subject of who gets credit for a win is something I have been struggling with as I've gotten more and more games in the hosting queue. I started out on forums where you had to be alive at the end to get the win credit. We knew what we were signing up for and I think few people ever complained about it because, just like life, mafia ain't fair. It's a leisure-time activity that is really meaningless in the grand scheme of things. The journey is always more important than the destination. That's what informs me and leads me to play the way I want to play in that moment. That doesn't mean I view DoA wins as cheap; I've just been hardwired through my experience to view alive-at-the-end wins as the norm. Because of this, I am inclined to impose such win conditions on my upcoming games.

Seeing both forms of win conditions here makes me question whether to use alive-at-the-end as my winner's badge standard though. I certainly don't want to feel pressured to offer DoA win conditions just to fill up a game or to attract people opposed to alive-at-the-end wincons to take part in the G-Man hosting experience. I'm used to alive-at-the-end but I will play any format of game if 1) I have time for a game, 2) I'm intrigued by the theme, and 3) I trust the host or am willing to see what hosting skills they've got (in that order- I usually don't get past #1). I try not to let the mechanics of a game hold me back from playing if the aforementioned three criteria are met. I would hope that others are the same way.

I've only been in one game so far where I would have benefited from a DoA wincon- Biblical. That game lasted 16 day phases. I busted my butt to provide those technicolor vote analyses, which helped catch at least one baddie while I was alive and one baddie after I died on Day 10. In a complete twist from what I am used to, I was told that I could continue to have BTSC with my civvie partner (Lot/Golden, the Coawrd ;) ) even though I died. Every game I played before on forums long ago the rule was death meant you cease all BTSC. I didn't let up theorizing with Golden until the final day of the game (at which point I didn't have enough time anymore to analyze everything the way I had been).

The civvies won the game, Golden gets the banner, and I get nothing but pride in helping my BTSC partner through the end. That pride was enough for me. At least Golden thought I should share in the win but that's not how the host had things set up. I'm okay with that. Had it been a DoA wincon, I'd have been okay with that because of the effort I put into it after death. However, that game was riddled with poor participation. Had it been DoA wincon, I'd have been pissed about some of the low- or non-participants getting credit for something they contributed almost nothing to.

On the flip-side, I was pretty much useless in the Arrested Development game. I survived through to the end, so I'll take the credit for not dying but had I died, I wouldn't have felt like I deserved a win at all and likely wouldn't have posted a banner if Heist games had those.

Another unique situation I was put in was in Bullets Over Broadway. I subbed in for ThatGamerGuy, who had made himself look as bad as he possibly could and was more or less exposed as bad when he posted something about it on another forum. That news broke into the thread during the minutes between getting the role info from the host and being inserted into the game. I entered the game knowing full well that everyone knew I was bad and that I was going to die in short order. It was crushing to enter into that situation but I made the best of it by almost completely ignoring what my baddie teammates were plotting, so as to not leave any breadcrumbs leading to them. I pitched in a little after death, but had my team won the game, I wouldn't have felt like I earned the winner's badge.

I can see where some are coming from with their arguments in favor of DoA, because alive-at-the-end can turn a game from baddies v. civvies into baddies v. a bunch of indies trying not to die. Maybe it comes down to whether you play for the fun of playing or you play for the credit of winning. I play for the former but there's nothing wrong with playing for the latter. No matter what you're playing for, though, you have to show up and play. Maybe there is a middle ground. In the end, it's the host's decision which wincon is in play. You have to trust the judgement of the host, for better or worse.

As a host, I would want to deny win credit to an absentee player who showed up for one or two days but then disappeared but was alive at the end because no one wanted to lynch or NK them. Baddies love to let absentee players linger in the hopes of an easy lynch target. Absentee players hurt the civvie cause, so they should not reap the benefits of a civvie win. The same goes for an absentee baddie player. As a host, I'd like to overrule someone getting automatic win credit. Since The Syndicate doesn't seem to have a set policy, couldn't hosts make their own judgement? That brings with it a lot of subjective rulings, which can lead to claims of bias but, let's be honest, none of the wincon setups are perfect.

As for Heist wins devaluing the Hall of Fame data, I can see a point there. I will probably play mostly Heist games for a while unless I have a lot of free time going for me. They are quicker and smaller games, so those wins can add up in a hurry. I think everyone would keep in mind for themselves that Heist wins aren't as valuable as other wins and understand that their win tally is skewed because of Heist wins. Perhaps Heist games should be weighted significantly less than the rest? Or does weighting Heists mean we need to weight Side-Missions too? That being said, if a Heist loss counts against you just as much as a regular loss, so why not count a Heist win in full?


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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#138

Post by Sloonei »

I guess I assumed, incorrectly it appears, that "you can only win if you're alive" was a more popular thing here because 3 of the 5 games I've been involved in here used it, and the only 2 that didn't were Talking Heads (an RYM crossover game) and Arrested Development (hosted by JJJ, an RYMer). Epignosis' Watchmen game was unique in that individual players all had individual win conditions, which was very neat and something I'd like to work into a game if I ever get the chance. But the other two (Economics and Bullets Over Broadway) completely restricted win conditions to the players who survived the whole game, and this seemed like the norm around here. Not to say I didn't love those games. Bullets Over Broadway was one of the funnest Mafia games I've ever played, and I never stopped to worry about surviving til the end in order to win. Economics, likewise, was a lot of fun for the two days that I was alive. This is a very minor point that has not actually affected my enjoyment of my time here at all. It's just a thing I don't agree with, for reasons already stated. I think Jay's philosophy on this and mine are completely identical. A team can only win if it functions as a team, and I prefer to permit all members to earn a share in the victory (though I wouldn't be opposed to restricting players who show up for 1 day and then disappear from winning, or something along those lines, not that it truly matters in the end).
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#139

Post by Sloonei »

Turnip Head wrote:This debate is why I'm a big proponent of MVP awards or (something I haven't tried yet) alternate win conditions. MVP can recognize someone who didn't make it to the end but was a vital part of the winning team. Conversely if the game allows dead civilians to win it can recognize the player who was most instrumental in that victory.

Alternate win conditions would be cool in a situation where a civilian dies but the team still won, and this player was able to accomplish such and such, so they still win.

As The Syndicate evolves I think we'll see more stuff like this.
We used to have MVP voting after every game on RYM. Not sure why it stopped. I liked it, it was a fun way to recognize players who did exceptionally well in a game.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#140

Post by thellama73 »

I have a question for the group. I always hear people attack the "you have to be alive to win" condition on the grounds that it keeps the civilians from playing like a team and encourages every man for himself tactics. My question is his: what does "playing like a team" look like for civilians? How, specifically, is it different than what we see now? How can you play like a team when you don't know who your teammates are?

I don't think I've ever heard this explained.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

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Post by Sloonei »

thellama73 wrote:I have a question for the group. I always hear people attack the "you have to be alive to win" condition on the grounds that it keeps the civilians from playing like a team and encourages every man for himself tactics. My question is his: what does "playing like a team" look like for civilians? How, specifically, is it different than what we see now? How can you play like a team when you don't know who your teammates are?

I don't think I've ever heard this explained.
One of the main points is a willingness for a town player to risk their own neck for the benefit of the whole team. For instance, one point I immediately noticed when I joined the Syndicate is that some players avoid making big posts or lots of posts because of an admitted preference to stay alive rather than put all of their cards on the table. This is not a completely foreign idea on RYM, but it's been taken to much greater lengths in the couple of games that I've played here compared to over there. It was especially visible in Economics, when Jay and I and a few other RYMers came over and caused a bit of a stir by throwing up way more posts than everyone but MP on Day 1. The strategy is that if every townie is being vocal, it becomes harder for the bad guys to hide because they'll either have to keep up and make bigger and bigger lies, or fall behind and get called out for their silence.

A townie can be identified by a willingness to help their team, regardless of whether or not they know who their teammates are. Sometimes you have to trust that certain other individuals are also town. I always remind myself in tense situations that, by rule, townies have to outnumber scum in every game, so there is always a greater likelihood that the person I'm interacting with at a given time is good rather than bad.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#142

Post by Law »

thellama73 wrote:I have a question for the group. I always hear people attack the "you have to be alive to win" condition on the grounds that it keeps the civilians from playing like a team and encourages every man for himself tactics. My question is his: what does "playing like a team" look like for civilians? How, specifically, is it different than what we see now? How can you play like a team when you don't know who your teammates are?

I don't think I've ever heard this explained.
If I roll a generic role as a Townie, I will do everything in my power to get myself killed instead of someone with a Power role.

Same goes for being a mafia goon and taking attention away from stronger members.

Inviting your mafia teammates to bus you in a smart way to help the team overall.

There are dozens, these are just the first ones to pop into my head as I read your question.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#143

Post by JaggedJimmyJay »

Sloonei wrote:
Turnip Head wrote:This debate is why I'm a big proponent of MVP awards or (something I haven't tried yet) alternate win conditions. MVP can recognize someone who didn't make it to the end but was a vital part of the winning team. Conversely if the game allows dead civilians to win it can recognize the player who was most instrumental in that victory.

Alternate win conditions would be cool in a situation where a civilian dies but the team still won, and this player was able to accomplish such and such, so they still win.

As The Syndicate evolves I think we'll see more stuff like this.
We used to have MVP voting after every game on RYM. Not sure why it stopped. I liked it, it was a fun way to recognize players who did exceptionally well in a game.
I think it stopped primarily because it often caused people to beef with the decision -- it usually wasn't popular vote, it was purely decided by the moderator(s). I wouldn't mind seeing it return, though I think it should be separate MVPs for town and mafia in each game. If nothing else, that'd be helpful for Maffies voting.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#144

Post by JaggedJimmyJay »

In addition to what Sloonei and Law have already stated...
thellama73 wrote:I have a question for the group. I always hear people attack the "you have to be alive to win" condition on the grounds that it keeps the civilians from playing like a team and encourages every man for himself tactics. My question is his: what does "playing like a team" look like for civilians? How, specifically, is it different than what we see now? How can you play like a team when you don't know who your teammates are?

I don't think I've ever heard this explained.
1.) Transparency -- A town team with players who are willing to state their reads clearly and frequently is going to have a much easier time locating like-minds and also utilizing process of elimination. Two things that seemed to spring onto The Syndicate (as far as I can tell given the general reception I witnessed) close to the time of the RYM influx were rainbow lists and plainly broadcasted town reads (sometimes these happen together). No townie without special information can ever be 100% certain that he/she is coordinating with someone else on the same team, but a little trust goes so far in Mafia. I have been burned a few times by placing trust in the wrong people, but far more many times have I been a part of a trust relationship that has played a key role in winning a town game.

........A.) "But doesn't this help the Mafia team(s) determine who they should kill?" -- It may, but that's simply not a big enough drawback to cancel the advantages that can be enjoyed. Mafia teams kill people for a thousand different reasons. Hell, if a town team can literally dictate their opponents' kill choices in any way then that is a meaningful advantage.

........B.) "I don't see how broadcasting town reads is beneficial to anyone but the bad guys." -- This is an argument I've seen repeatedly, and I think it is very misguided. All reads are important, whether town reads or mafia reads, and all of them have the potential to influence voting behavior and lynch results. I don't know how many times I've watched players get mislynched because a faulty case was built against them (either manipulatively or honestly) when it could have been avoided if a dissenting perspective was voiced more loudly and consistently. If I state "I am reading Player X as town", and anyone else thinks Player X reads more like mafia; then my stating that read is automatically justified. A discussion can then be had, and both players will be able to better qualify and substantiate their reads based upon the perspective offered by the dissenter. This is teamwork, even without the ability to have total faith in each other as being townies.

I don't mean to suggest those counterarguments are yours, llama -- I've just seen them before.

2.) Cover -- Sometimes townies know things that mafia do not know, or maybe they have strong hunches. Maybe a townie strongly suspects that another player is also a townie with a powerful role (more powerful than his/her own role). Laying down cover for that other townie is a crucial means of protecting them from night kills, and it might even mean self-sacrifice. This was a definitive characteristic of the Arrested Development game that just took place.

3.) Coordinated voting -- This is much less applicable in a game without vote changes, because those games dictate that players must vote when they must and not when they want. In a game with vote changes, players are able to work alongside those they trust most to ensure a tally is compiled that suits what they believe to be most likely in town's best interest. Recent games around here have seen more changeable votes, and one result has been highly mobile late-day tallies -- mass exoduses from one player and mass pile-ups on another. CFDs. Whirlwind posting rates in the final hour. These are all characteristics I associate with a teamwork-oriented town trying to use pressure and communication to mount the best lynch possible.

4.) Leadership -- It isn't essential that a town team have someone playing in a "leader" role, but it can be very good. This worries people in Mafia games because they can't shake the fear that their leader(s) is/are duping them as baddies. Sometimes that's true, but it usually is not -- and a willingness to trust players who are trying to lead, especially those who are otherwise not suspicious, is a huge component of the kind of town teamwork I pride myself in pursuing. And that back-of-mind concern can always be applied by checking the content of leaders against thread evidence; it is the job of any town to make that decision wisely.

~~~

Some of these might not be totally absent from stay-alive-to-win games, but I do think they're significantly less prevalent. I do think it's harder for the civilian faction to win the game if not all of them are promised the win together, and that any game with that rule in place needs to acknowledge that and have counterbalances to weaken the baddie teams and/or otherwise strengthen the town.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#145

Post by Sloonei »

JaggedJimmyJay wrote: Hell, if a town team can literally dictate their opponents' kill choices in any way then that is a meaningful advantage.
I never even considered this, but it's an excellent point. I remember an RYM game (in which I was scum) where dunya pulled off some crazy maneuver in the thread to make us believe a certain player was a power role. We attempted to kill that player that night and had it blocked and whoever was doing the kill got caught in the act. It was the coolest thing I've ever seen.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#146

Post by S~V~S »

Law wrote:
thellama73 wrote:I have a question for the group. I always hear people attack the "you have to be alive to win" condition on the grounds that it keeps the civilians from playing like a team and encourages every man for himself tactics. My question is his: what does "playing like a team" look like for civilians? How, specifically, is it different than what we see now? How can you play like a team when you don't know who your teammates are?

I don't think I've ever heard this explained.
If I roll a generic role as a Townie, I will do everything in my power to get myself killed instead of someone with a Power role.

Same goes for being a mafia goon and taking attention away from stronger members.

Inviting your mafia teammates to bus you in a smart way to help the team overall.

There are dozens, these are just the first ones to pop into my head as I read your question.
I intentionally tried to draw the kill in a recent game, more to try to frame the person I was very vocally going after than anything. If I had to be alive, I would have been less likely to try that.

My pet peeve with alive to win win cons is the civ protector who protects him/herself every other night. I think the protector should be trying to protect OTHER people. That is less likely to happen in win dead or alive set ups.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

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Post by Epignosis »

S~V~S wrote:My pet peeve with alive to win win cons is the civ protector who protects him/herself every other night. I think the protector should be trying to protect OTHER people. That is less likely to happen in win dead or alive set ups.
One reason why self-targeting is a no-no almost all of the time in my games.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#148

Post by S~V~S »

I usually set my protectors up with one auto NP, and that role specifically cannot self target. I think strategic self targeting has a place.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#149

Post by Dragon D. Luffy »

I think one explanation for why our ways of thinking are different is how you guys treat winning in the syndicate as opposed to me and the people from the forum I came from.

In the Syndicate, winning seems to be a bigger deal, with signature banners and hall of fame and everything.

In my original forum, it's not. If I am killed Night 1 as a townie then one month later hear that town won, I'd be like "oh cool, town won. Okay, back to Pokemon". And if I lose, I won't be very sad either. In the former case, I technically won the game, but that doesn't mean anything.

We don't give people respect because of games won. We give it because of memorable performances. Like, that guy who stayed alive to Day 10 and almost caught the entire scum team. They are not getting a banner for it but they will be talked about for years. On the other hand, I have no idea how many games I "won" at NF last year.

Now, while I am still alive, the fact I know I can win even if I die is the real game changer. Because I know I can give my all without having to worry about being night killed as a losing factor, and I am a part of a team that is ultimately expendable, so I should try my best to team-work. I'm not an indie, I am Town.

The prize itself doesn't matter much, but my wincon while I'm still playing the game does.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#150

Post by Law »

Dragon D. Luffy wrote:
The prize itself doesn't matter much, but my wincon while I'm still playing the game does.
This statement is all that I need to know that I would never host a game where you had to be alive to win. It's all anyone should need, to understand why it's a terribly flawed notion.

It's not about winning and losing, it's about incentive and intent. If your townies aren't playing properly, then it's not the same game anymore. If I enroll in a game and I'm later informed that I need to be alive to win, even if I am technically a Town role-- as far as I'm concerned, I'm a survivor Indie. And like it or not, that's how the majority would think, whether they talk about it or even realize it. That's basic human psychology at work.

I've not seen one person here refute this most basic detractor from that style of hosting. I've seen some people try, and ultimately fail.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#151

Post by G-Man »

Law wrote:
Dragon D. Luffy wrote:
The prize itself doesn't matter much, but my wincon while I'm still playing the game does.
This statement is all that I need to know that I would never host a game where you had to be alive to win. It's all anyone should need, to understand why it's a terribly flawed notion.

It's not about winning and losing, it's about incentive and intent. If your townies aren't playing properly, then it's not the same game anymore. If I enroll in a game and I'm later informed that I need to be alive to win, even if I am

I've not seen one person here refute this most basic detractor from that style of hosting. I've seen some people try, and ultimately fail.
I see how the alive-to-win wincon turns a game from a group of civvies into a group of indies. I don't think that can be refuted because many of us have or had played that way for years. I think it was a function of people creating more intricate games with role mechanisms that could possibly break a game too early if powerful civvie roles outted themselves. In our quest for creativity, we felt it necessary to ban claiming, clinting, and info-dumping to ensure (in hosts' minds at least) that both sides of the game had a chance to both win and enjoy themselves.

Without the ability to claim and whatnot, the imperative to contribute may have been lost along the way. Without the chance to break a game, there was less chance to put yourself out there and take a stand. In this way, would anyone agree with me that the drive for complexity and uniqueness in our games years ago may have led us to this point where we find this culture clash taking place?

I like complexity in games because they lead to fascinating roles. The more fascinating, intricate, and nuanced a role I am given, the less likely I will be to take a chance and die early. If I have an awesome role, I want to stay alive as long as possible to use that role.

What I think I disagree with in this discussion is the seeming assumption that a DoA wincon will result in players collaborating and engaging more. I can agree that civvie-survival wincons will lead to less risk-taking. Without hosts having the ability to pick and choose which civvies deserve win credit, I cannot agree that DoA wincons lead to more risk-taking. In my mind, unregulated DoA can yield just as much nonparticipation. Maybe that's a product of the mafia cultures I have played in over the last eight years.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#152

Post by thellama73 »

Law wrote:
Dragon D. Luffy wrote:
The prize itself doesn't matter much, but my wincon while I'm still playing the game does.
This statement is all that I need to know that I would never host a game where you had to be alive to win. It's all anyone should need, to understand why it's a terribly flawed notion.

It's not about winning and losing, it's about incentive and intent. If your townies aren't playing properly, then it's not the same game anymore. If I enroll in a game and I'm later informed that I need to be alive to win, even if I am technically a Town role-- as far as I'm concerned, I'm a survivor Indie. And like it or not, that's how the majority would think, whether they talk about it or even realize it. That's basic human psychology at work.

I've not seen one person here refute this most basic detractor from that style of hosting. I've seen some people try, and ultimately fail.
Nonsense. It's not a "terribly flawed notion" to require someone to be alive to win. It's just different. I understand the points in favor of both approaches, but it's narrow minded and foolish to say that one is right and the other is wrong. It's up to the host and the kind of game they want to run. I personally think those in favor of the dead or alive wincon overestimate the effectiveness of so-called teamwork on the part of the civvies, and neglects the free rider problem ofpeople who realize they can win without contributing.
Epignosis wrote:If llama is good, it means we exist in a universe in which multitasking llama can call out the first of two mafia while simultaneously calling out two civilians.

I don't want to live in that universe.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#153

Post by Dragon D. Luffy »

Law wrote:
Dragon D. Luffy wrote:
The prize itself doesn't matter much, but my wincon while I'm still playing the game does.
This statement is all that I need to know that I would never host a game where you had to be alive to win. It's all anyone should need, to understand why it's a terribly flawed notion.

It's not about winning and losing, it's about incentive and intent. If your townies aren't playing properly, then it's not the same game anymore. If I enroll in a game and I'm later informed that I need to be alive to win, even if I am technically a Town role-- as far as I'm concerned, I'm a survivor Indie. And like it or not, that's how the majority would think, whether they talk about it or even realize it. That's basic human psychology at work.

I've not seen one person here refute this most basic detractor from that style of hosting. I've seen some people try, and ultimately fail.
Everything can be refuted if you create a setup that matches it. I don't like this mechanic myself for the most part, but even it can lead to good games if used properly.

For example, an example of a very good game I played that had the alive-to-win mechanic applied in a creative way:

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... f=28&t=672

In this game, every townie IS an indie. The power roles with specific wincons but no need to survive, and the weaker townies with survivor wincons. This is balanced by the fact the mafia/town ratio is very small.

Only a sith deals in absolutes. If you create restrictions to what a mafia game should be, you are only making yourself miss some great games.
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Black Rock
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#154

Post by Black Rock »

Turnip Head wrote:
Epignosis wrote:An unlimited recruiter, whose recruitment power passes to the recruited players upon the recruiter's death. Unless the recruiter is lynched Day 1 (or blocked Night 1 and lynched Day 2), the recruiter wins. This mechanic is inherently game-breaking.
This. I would understand if it just slipped the host's mind the first time this sort of mechanic popped up, but I've seen it twice recently and there was nothing anyone could do to stop it. :ninja: The one time I saw a recruiting team work was in LOST Mafia on LP, where the recruiting power died with the recruiter, was every other Night, couldn't recruit roles with BTSC, and the recruited players lost their old roles.

My least favorite mechanic is silencing. It can make a player completely lose interest, and it's always used on an active poster so participation drops as a whole. I prefer insanifiers and cursers.
I have to agree on this. Although from a host stand point I will use it, there is strategy in it. Should be a Mafia power. From a player stand point it's hard for me to stay interested. I'm more like silenced for 48 hours? See you in two days and then I fall behind. I used to keep up but that just frustrated me.
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Re: What is Your Least Favorite Mafia Game Mechanic and Why?

#155

Post by G-Man »

Black Rock wrote:
Turnip Head wrote:
Epignosis wrote:An unlimited recruiter, whose recruitment power passes to the recruited players upon the recruiter's death. Unless the recruiter is lynched Day 1 (or blocked Night 1 and lynched Day 2), the recruiter wins. This mechanic is inherently game-breaking.
This. I would understand if it just slipped the host's mind the first time this sort of mechanic popped up, but I've seen it twice recently and there was nothing anyone could do to stop it. :ninja: The one time I saw a recruiting team work was in LOST Mafia on LP, where the recruiting power died with the recruiter, was every other Night, couldn't recruit roles with BTSC, and the recruited players lost their old roles.

My least favorite mechanic is silencing. It can make a player completely lose interest, and it's always used on an active poster so participation drops as a whole. I prefer insanifiers and cursers.
I have to agree on this. Although from a host stand point I will use it, there is strategy in it. Should be a Mafia power. From a player stand point it's hard for me to stay interested. I'm more like silenced for 48 hours? See you in two days and then I fall behind. I used to keep up but that just frustrated me.
I remember Secret Mafia when you were the baddie silencer. You were doing good until the night you silenced yourself the same night you got sent into the future. They didn't even care that you couldn't speak when you returned to the game. They lynched you straight away. :disappoint:
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