[END] Talking Heads Mafia (RYM #90)

#5751

Ricochet wrote:Ahem.

I did that.

With MacBaddie.

You did, as did others. I did not, and that was my blunder. I don't mean to single you out or even suggest you're even as guilty of as the mean of easy-button casing. You're putting in a big workload and it will have a lot of value, so keep at it. I am at least relieved to see that this phase hasn't completely gone the mafia's way -- either with a vote-avalanche upon me or the people who "saved" me. This is a complex scenario is all I mean, and the things that seem obvious might well be obvious because they're wrong. I know that from my own current circumstance.

#5752

Epignosis wrote:Explain what? I'm asking those who think I'm Psycho Kill to explain why such a course of action would be logical for me.

Marsh made a pretty similar argument in his own defense and you shot it down.

#5753

Epignosis wrote:
Matt F wrote:
DrWilgy wrote:Man, I sure would love to vote for Choutas today.
Why? Is his roleclaim false?

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Metalmarsh89 wrote:And, @ Epignosis. Let me ask you again. I had the chance to lynch JaggedJimmyJay on Day 7, but I moved my vote to seaside instead. If I am the PSK, does this seem like a logical move to you?
Yes, it does.

Epignosis wrote:If you think I am Psycho Killer, why would I drive the lynch away from 3J at the last moment when I need him dead to win?

Interesting indeed.

Explain Epignosis?
Explain what? I'm asking those who think I'm Psycho Kill to explain why such a course of action would be logical for me.

Oh, I missed the first quote there.

I don't know. I had to say something.

#5754

Elohcin wrote:
Epignosis wrote:For those interested in why I'm fairly certain MM isn't the Psycho Killer, it's the same reason I'm not: I don't miss PMs (especially kills).

One need only look at MM's Night 5 activity. He had 24 posts. No way he missed a PM that Night.

If you want to track down Psycho Killer, my advice would be to see who was inactive or barely active Night 5.
But there are so many people who aren't very active at all. What if the SK is lying low the whole time. And then there are those who don't care to talk a lot at night. What makes you think that is is MM specifically?

I don't think MM is Psycho Killer.

My point was that MM would not have missed his PM if he was.

#5755

Choutas - Does Dr Wilgy believe your roleclaim to be false?

Epignosis - I know you won't, but I'd love to see a rainbow list from you

Who are you looking at for today's lynch? Strawhenge and Floyd, then, because they hopped on the MM train? Do you believe Strawhenge's "kinda sorta but not really but it is" infodump to be false? Are you still interested in lynching 3J?

Linki - Was anyone punished for inactivity (saying shit like "I deserve to die") the day after the SK missed their kill?

#5756

Matt F wrote: Epignosis - I know you won't, but I'd love to see a rainbow list from you Who are you looking at for today's lynch? Strawhenge and Floyd, then, because they hopped on the MM train? Do you believe Strawhenge's "kinda sorta but not really but it is" infodump to be false? Are you still interested in lynching 3J?

Que?

#5757

Gut perspective which might be foolish, but it's influencing me so here it is:

RYMers are very new to the concept of "infodumping". In our games, it is perfectly normal to reveal role-related information in the thread, because we primarily play in closed setups where not everything can be taken at face value -- there is always some room for doubt. This game is an open setup, and that potential for doubt is significant diminished -- which is why infodumping is illegal in the first place. RYMers who have skirted the rules strike me as more town than not (or at least more honest than not, because I even thought Mac was doing it genuinely). I get the impression that they're frustrated to have what they perceive to be crucial information that can change the game without the ability to simply say it like they normally would.

That doesn't mean their claims are accurate, it only means I lean towards them being honest. There are a lot of explanations for missed kills, for example, so what looks like a successful roleblock of a night kill might have actually been someone else's protective role or an attack on "Blind".

#5758

Elohcin wrote:
Russtifinko wrote:
Elo, as much as I love to hear someone say Epi is being wishy-washy, I no longer think there's any reason we should buy even a tiny bit of Mac's theory that Epi was the SK. I think it really is just a new style for him.

So you agree he is playing differently this game than he normally does? I'm not crazy when it comes to that, right? B/c I see a difference.

Are you recruited?

How do I normally play?

#5759

Ricochet wrote:
Matt F wrote: Epignosis - I know you won't, but I'd love to see a rainbow list from you Who are you looking at for today's lynch? Strawhenge and Floyd, then, because they hopped on the MM train? Do you believe Strawhenge's "kinda sorta but not really but it is" infodump to be false? Are you still interested in lynching 3J?
Que?

Yeah, he came in ablazin' about lynching MM, and then someone asked him if he had info I think or maybe someone lectured him about not infodumping and Straw said this...

Strawhenge wrote:If I answer the question about 'info dumping,' is that info dumping?

#5760

Matt F wrote:Choutas - Does Dr Wilgy believe your roleclaim to be false?

Epignosis - I know you won't, but I'd love to see a rainbow list from you Who are you looking at for today's lynch? Strawhenge and Floyd, then, because they hopped on the MM train? Do you believe Strawhenge's "kinda sorta but not really but it is" infodump to be false? Are you still interested in lynching 3J?

Linki - Was anyone punished for inactivity (saying shit like "I deserve to die") the day after the SK missed their kill?

I think a Floyd lynch needs to happen. I trust Choutas (heh). I don't trust 3J, but I saw a squirrel named seaside, chased him, and buried him in a little hole somewhere.

#5761

Moving my vote to TheFloyd73.

#5762

I asked myself who I would not want to lynch this phase, and these names came out of my brain:

bcornett24
Choutas
Diiny
DrWilgy
Elohcin
Matt F
Ricochet
Strawhenge

leaving: Bullzeye, MM, motel room, RadicalFuzz, Russ, sig, Floyd

I think there's a healthy scum pile in that last list, and probably at least one in the non-lynch list. Some of my choices here might be confusing, but I can explain my perspective at least in brief terms if anyone asks. I am letting my gut have more of a say right now -- my analyses have been too inconsistent this game and I've lost confidence in my grasp of the mafia strategy.

#5763

Epignosis - Do you feel more strongly that Floyd is mafia then 3J? What about motel room? Did you ever get a chance to examine his posts?

Linki - I don't trust Strawhenge. I think he knew Mac was scum before the Night Post revealed it. Why else would he accuse you and Motel Room of being his "scum buddy" and that he's "not buying it", yet he refuses to vote for the guy (when at the time, it was pretty close between Mac and Diiny I believe)

I would like an explanation on why you think Straw is civvie.

#5764

Seaside's role makes me look favorably upon Diiny. I think the evidence should favor both of us frankly and that seaside misinterpreted the data he had at his disposal -- but Diiny as Drugs doesn't seem to make sense. I might be misunderstanding the role, but if he was convinced it was the Ricochet wagon specifically that was of interest, then the Drugs role should be less relevant. Ricochet would have made little sense as a Drugs target at that point -- he never drew any significant heat until I built the ISO on him and a wagon sprang up. I need to review that whole scenario though because I'm honestly confused about everything seaside did.

#5765

Matt F wrote:Linki - I don't trust Strawhenge. I think he knew Mac was scum before the Night Post revealed it. Why else would he accuse you and Motel Room of being his "scum buddy" and that he's "not buying it", yet he refuses to vote for the guy (when at the time, it was pretty close between Mac and Diiny I believe)

I would like an explanation on why you think Straw is civvie.

I understand your suspicion. I think in purely objective terms, Strawhenge was suspicious during the EOD scenario in the Mac lynch. I reacted very negatively to the same post you're referring to in the heat of the moment:

Spoiler: show

The reason I have doubt now is purely based upon his demeanor. Strawhenge has a way of conveying total innocence -- and this is specifically important for him more than most other players because he plays this game with a certain moral code. He has openly refused to be emotionally manipulative as a bad guy because he thinks it is out of the spirit of the game (I agree with him on that front to be honest).

I ought to review his content since that exchange more thoroughly though to decide whether he really deserves this read. It's just what I've seen on the surface in recent skims.

#5766

Matt F wrote:Epignosis - Do you feel more strongly that Floyd is mafia then 3J? What about motel room? Did you ever get a chance to examine his posts?

Linki - I don't trust Strawhenge. I think he knew Mac was scum before the Night Post revealed it. Why else would he accuse you and Motel Room of being his "scum buddy" and that he's "not buying it", yet he refuses to vote for the guy (when at the time, it was pretty close between Mac and Diiny I believe)

I would like an explanation on why you think Straw is civvie.

No, I haven't looked into motel room. I'll do that after supper.

I look at it this way: If Floyd is civilian, he isn't helping things (and I couldn't fault him, first game, so on and so forth). If Floyd is bad, he's made some real rookie mistakes we've let slide (again, couldn't fault him). If 3J is civilian, he's being helpful. If 3J is bad, then he's a much stronger civilian than he is a bad guy.

My point is that Floyd is contributing a lot less than 3J. This is almost a sort of Pascal's Wager, I know, but there it is.

#5767

This is also affecting my perspective of Strawhenge and Choutas:

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Gut perspective which might be foolish, but it's influencing me so here it is:

RYMers are very new to the concept of "infodumping". In our games, it is perfectly normal to reveal role-related information in the thread, because we primarily play in closed setups where not everything can be taken at face value -- there is always some room for doubt. This game is an open setup, and that potential for doubt is significant diminished -- which is why infodumping is illegal in the first place. RYMers who have skirted the rules strike me as more town than not (or at least more honest than not, because I even thought Mac was doing it genuinely). I get the impression that they're frustrated to have what they perceive to be crucial information that can change the game without the ability to simply say it like they normally would.

That doesn't mean their claims are accurate, it only means I lean towards them being honest. There are a lot of explanations for missed kills, for example, so what looks like a successful roleblock of a night kill might have actually been someone else's protective role or an attack on "Blind".

#5768

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Seaside's role makes me look favorably upon Diiny. I think the evidence should favor both of us frankly and that seaside misinterpreted the data he had at his disposal -- but Diiny as Drugs doesn't seem to make sense. I might be misunderstanding the role, but if he was convinced it was the Ricochet wagon specifically that was of interest, then the Drugs role should be less relevant. Ricochet would have made little sense as a Drugs target at that point -- he never drew any significant heat until I built the ISO on him and a wagon sprang up. I need to review that whole scenario though because I'm honestly confused about everything seaside did.

I frankly still don't see how seaside seeing (oh boy getting a bit alliterative here) something (oh not over yet) on you two based on my D3 wagon adds up. Even from a civilian pov, extra votes would have done me just as much as being drugged. There is Blind, on the other hand, of course, but if the seaside witness a manipulative deficit, why would he hunt you and Diiny - or rather why would that be the hint of his legacy?

So yeah, doesn't add up.

#5769

Epignosis - I feel that you wanting to lynch Floyd again instead of 3J plays right into what 3J was saying about "keep me around as long as possible until they need someone lynched".

On Day 7, you put your vote on 3J but were very open in the thread about being willing to change that vote if someone could convince you. Then you seemed to convince yourself by your admitted "starting the train" against seaside. Now again, you would rather lynch Floyd then 3J because "Even if Floyd is good, he's not contributing like 3J over here, who btw painted Mac straight townie all game".

Also, do you really think Elohcin could've been recruited? I notice she never answered you. Of course, i won't be willing to lynch her unless all of the Mafia are dead and suddenly in a night post it says "So and so killed by (Elohcin's role here)", but I'm just curious if you really thought that, or if you were just messing around with her.

#5770

Strawhenge

He still hasn't updated my rating LYNCH HIM LYNCH HIIIIIIM

Ahem...

Interactions with LC
-- Wary of his bea case and reasoning (players having town reads on D1 being pretty normal)
-- (post-lynch) analysis on LC's interactions, with the only result being that we need to figure if bea was a teammate or not
-- (post-lynch) defensive to JJJ about not having had interactions with LC and getting downgraded because of that

Interactions with MacBaddie
-- N1 inquires MacBaddie on thoughts
-- agrees with MacBaddie that Floyd townreads need to explain the townread
-- D5 asks why Mac's suddenly seen as bad; seems content with Mac's own clarification that he's hunted for role theory reasons
-- banter with Mac on Matt being an idiot
-- comes back feeling Matt's theory is only one missing piece away from being on point
-- D6 reads Mac "NOT SCUM; TO WIT, TOWN OR SK"
-- suddenly recalls Mac's plead for D5 to be dedicated to catching SK
-- then again, in reply to Russ, states that he has no reasons to think Mac is scum (alongside JJJ and Choutas); asks again for a case on Mac
-- when faced with voting Mac or Diiny, refuses to, because of not finding either of them scum
-- rates Mac two stars and a half
-- finds the wave of requests to save Mac strange
-- D7 breakdown of why he didn't voted Mac
-- (post-lynch) read on JJJ: finds him untrustworthy, also considers the possibility of him having been wrong about Mac

Interactions with Black Rock
-- reads her town D6; disagrees with JJJ's case
-- explanation on not finding BR case strong
-- questions JJJ on not rallying for BR's lynch on D6
-- reads BR town in GTH; yet gives her two stars and a half later

LC interactions with Strawhenge
Nada. (On D1, tangentially agrees, in conversation with fellow baddie McBaddie, that maybe he should have gone the "lurker lynch" way as well...a list which included Floyd)

MacBaddie interactions with Strawhenge
-- Includes Floyd in his "lynch a lurker" lottery
-- reads him good in D3 GTH
-- banter and facepalms in light of Strawhenge suddenly seeing a bit of sense in Matt's SK theory on him
-- reads him solid town D5
-- calls bullshit when again Strawhenge chimes in on a different theory about Mac being bad
-- engages with Strawhenge about moving his D6 vote where it matters, even saving him

Black Rock interactions with Strawhenge
Nada.

Votes
D1 placeholder vote on seaside
D2 seaside again for his repeated vouch for Floyd...I think?
D3 cases Sorsha on defending LC
D4 sticks with Sorsha
D5 MM for demeanor
D6 sticks with MM
D7 Floyd on several charges

Read
Hmm. Stats come slightly dirtier than I expected in his case, particularly concerning BR and some of the vote choices (like the "Sorsha as LC defender" angle, which can only make me suspicious, considering how much it has proven faulty in this game). Mac interactions are also very soft - and, in reverse, if we know MacBaddie spewed a lot of suss on plenty players before dying, shouldn't his townreads raise an eyebrow a bit? - but thing is, the D6 resistance to voting decisively in the Diiny - Mac wagon is pivotal. First of all, the "Straw, it's better that you vote something rather than nothing" happens to appear in Mac's posts, which doesn't make me feel good about any other players who also used it as persuasion. Hence, I can't be that suspicious of Straw for deciding to do "nothing". Second of all, Straw's explanation of why he didn't made the move sound pretty solid to me. Thirdly, I still believe the mafia team had faith in pulling it off, which makes it incomprehensible why Strawhenge, if teamie, would leave MacBaddie to die, only to preserve his status, because a) if there's scum on the Diiny persuasion, they may have damaged themselves already and b) saving Mac and getting an extra day together, at least, would have still been more beneficial than giving up, with one vote in sight.

If all this is an illusion and everything fits the other way around (MacBaddie townreading him for safe distance; Strawhenge leaving MacBaddie to die to gain possibly the most solid cred position in the team, etc.), I'll basically pluck my eyebrows out, but overall, smudgy reads and votes aside, I think the D6 drama is the best indicator that Strawhenge had simply good instincts and could not have been a teammate derailing a visibly intense counterwagon to save a mafioso.

I do not know, as of yet, how to interpret his non-info-dumping-info-dumping happening. The suss on MM for demeanor is rather old in his history posts, even if I still don't find it a solid angle put forth.

#5771

Gonna rainbow based on my gut as of this moment, no neutral allowed.

Ricochet
Choutas
Matt F

Diiny
Elohcin
DrWilgy
Strawhenge
Epignosis
bcornett24

Metalmarsh89
Russtifinko
RadicalFuzz
motel room

sig
TheFloyd73

#5772

Ricochet wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Seaside's role makes me look favorably upon Diiny. I think the evidence should favor both of us frankly and that seaside misinterpreted the data he had at his disposal -- but Diiny as Drugs doesn't seem to make sense. I might be misunderstanding the role, but if he was convinced it was the Ricochet wagon specifically that was of interest, then the Drugs role should be less relevant. Ricochet would have made little sense as a Drugs target at that point -- he never drew any significant heat until I built the ISO on him and a wagon sprang up. I need to review that whole scenario though because I'm honestly confused about everything seaside did.
I frankly still don't see how seaside seeing (oh boy getting a bit alliterative here) something (oh not over yet) on you two based on my D3 wagon adds up. Even from a civilian pov, extra votes would have done me just as much as being drugged. There is Blind, on the other hand, of course, but if the seaside witness a manipulative deficit, why would he hunt you and Diiny - or rather why would that be the hint of his legacy?

So yeah, doesn't add up.

Do you agree with me that if seaside's apparent evidence doesn't seem to add up as incriminating evidence against Diiny and I, that it should instead serve as evidence in our favor?

#5773

Epignosis

I don't have a straight reason. I'm getting bad vibes. Why doesn't he want to lynch 3J? Why was he adamantly against a Long Con lynch on Day 2 evven if he did think it wasn't an appropriate reason to lynch someone? Why did he start a lynch train against civvie seaside in Day 7, when before he was practically begging (for lack of a better word) someone to convince him to change his vote from 3J? What was with the weird MM bait trap? It feels like he needed a reason not to vote for 3J today.

3J - Does Epignosis' behavior play into your own theory of "the mafia doesn't want me lynched" ? Because that's what it looks like to me.

Tbh, I don't even necessarily trust you 3J. I still think you and motel room look incredibly bad, but I'm getting serious bad vibes from Epignosis.

Linki - 3J - Epignosis is currently doing exactly what you suspect the Mafia of doing to you, but you read him as good???

Keeping my vote on motel room for now.

#5774

Matt F wrote:3J - Does Epignosis' behavior play into your own theory of "the mafia doesn't want me lynched" ? Because that's what it looks like to me.

Tbh, I don't even necessarily trust you 3J. I still think you and motel room look incredibly bad, but I'm getting serious bad vibes from Epignosis.

Linki - 3J - Epignosis is currently doing exactly what you suspect the Mafia of doing to you, but you read him as good???

It's possible. The one factor making me question that strongly is the fact that he has promoted the lynch of a player that I also suspect (Floyd). Maybe Epi is capitalizing on Floyd's easy lynchability as a component of the very strategy we're talking about re: me -- I don't know.

Have your feelings on Floyd changed?

#5775

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:I asked myself who I would not want to lynch this phase, and these names came out of my brain:

bcornett24
Choutas
Diiny
DrWilgy
Elohcin
Matt F
Ricochet
Strawhenge

leaving: Bullzeye, MM, motel room, RadicalFuzz, Russ, sig, Floyd

I think there's a healthy scum pile in that last list, and probably at least one in the non-lynch list. Some of my choices here might be confusing, but I can explain my perspective at least in brief terms if anyone asks. I am letting my gut have more of a say right now -- my analyses have been too inconsistent this game and I've lost confidence in my grasp of the mafia strategy.

I didn't make either list.

#5776

Epignosis wrote:I didn't make either list.

Oops. Pay a visit to your nearest rainbow though.

#5777

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Metalmarsh89
Russtifinko
RadicalFuzz
motel room
Bullzeye

EBWOP, forgot Bullzeye.

#5778

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Matt F wrote:3J - Does Epignosis' behavior play into your own theory of "the mafia doesn't want me lynched" ? Because that's what it looks like to me.

Tbh, I don't even necessarily trust you 3J. I still think you and motel room look incredibly bad, but I'm getting serious bad vibes from Epignosis.

Linki - 3J - Epignosis is currently doing exactly what you suspect the Mafia of doing to you, but you read him as good???
It's possible. The one factor making me question that strongly is the fact that he has promoted the lynch of a player that I also suspect (Floyd). Maybe Epi is capitalizing on Floyd's easy lynchability as a component of the very strategy we're talking about re: me -- I don't know.

Have your feelings on Floyd changed?

He slipped somehow when he said "rivals" to Strawhenge. Sure of it. Yet, if I also think Straw is bad, then that was an orchestrated slip to clear Straw of any wrongdoing once Floyd flips bad. (bullz what do you think of this theory?

)

I know BR defended him and at some point Mac made a joke towards me like "Keep on railroading noobs", but I'm not sure if that means anything either way.

I will say that I'm less happy about a Floyd lynch today then I would've been the other day, but I also think it's an easy out. Why isn't Epignosis after you?

#5779

Matt F wrote:Epignosis - I feel that you wanting to lynch Floyd again instead of 3J plays right into what 3J was saying about "keep me around as long as possible until they need someone lynched".

On Day 7, you put your vote on 3J but were very open in the thread about being willing to change that vote if someone could convince you. Then you seemed to convince yourself by your admitted "starting the train" against seaside. Now again, you would rather lynch Floyd then 3J because "Even if Floyd is good, he's not contributing like 3J over here, who btw painted Mac straight townie all game".

Also, do you really think Elohcin could've been recruited? I notice she never answered you. Of course, i won't be willing to lynch her unless all of the Mafia are dead and suddenly in a night post it says "So and so killed by (Elohcin's role here)", but I'm just curious if you really thought that, or if you were just messing around with her.

If you want to lynch 3J, I won't stop you. All I'm saying is that a civilian 3J is far more useful than a civilian Floyd (even if 3J is wrong all the time).

As for recruitment, Psycho Killer has secrets. Roxy's game had a secret recruiter. MP's Bioshock game had recruitment out the wazoo. I just find her sudden shift against me unsettling, and ask yourself, if you were a recruiter, would you NOT take Elohcin?

I don't really believe any of this apart from mentioning that the possibility is there. Secret recruit teams are the pits because you can't do anything about them. In my experience, they always win.

#5780

Matt F wrote:Why isn't Epignosis after you?

Let's ask him.

Epi: are you truly concerned enough with my capacity for contribution to forego lynching me as a player you do not trust? Has your read of me changed in any manner since MacDougall flipped mafia?

#5781

Epignosis wrote:
Matt F wrote:Epignosis - I feel that you wanting to lynch Floyd again instead of 3J plays right into what 3J was saying about "keep me around as long as possible until they need someone lynched".

On Day 7, you put your vote on 3J but were very open in the thread about being willing to change that vote if someone could convince you. Then you seemed to convince yourself by your admitted "starting the train" against seaside. Now again, you would rather lynch Floyd then 3J because "Even if Floyd is good, he's not contributing like 3J over here, who btw painted Mac straight townie all game".

Also, do you really think Elohcin could've been recruited? I notice she never answered you. Of course, i won't be willing to lynch her unless all of the Mafia are dead and suddenly in a night post it says "So and so killed by (Elohcin's role here)", but I'm just curious if you really thought that, or if you were just messing around with her.
If you want to lynch 3J, I won't stop you. All I'm saying is that a civilian 3J is far more useful than a civilian Floyd (even if 3J is wrong all the time).

As for recruitment, Psycho Killer has secrets. Roxy's game had a secret recruiter. MP's Bioshock game had recruitment out the wazoo. I just find her sudden shift against me unsettling, and ask yourself, if you were a recruiter, would you NOT take Elohcin?

I don't really believe any of this apart from mentioning that the possibility is there. Secret recruit teams are the pits because you can't do anything about them. In my experience, they always win.

Epignosis - Do you think it's strange that 3J just said that he believes the Mafia is trying to keep him around as long as possible so they can lynch him later when they need to, yet thinks you are good despite you, quite literally, enacting the very idea he just theorized? (ie "Let's not lynch 3J, let's get seaside. Let's not lynch 3J, let's get Floyd") Why doesn't 3J suspect you?

#5782

RadicalFuzz has been begging to be read as a bad guy all game long. I think it's time we oblige.

#5783

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Ricochet wrote:
JaggedJimmyJay wrote:Seaside's role makes me look favorably upon Diiny. I think the evidence should favor both of us frankly and that seaside misinterpreted the data he had at his disposal -- but Diiny as Drugs doesn't seem to make sense. I might be misunderstanding the role, but if he was convinced it was the Ricochet wagon specifically that was of interest, then the Drugs role should be less relevant. Ricochet would have made little sense as a Drugs target at that point -- he never drew any significant heat until I built the ISO on him and a wagon sprang up. I need to review that whole scenario though because I'm honestly confused about everything seaside did.
I frankly still don't see how seaside seeing (oh boy getting a bit alliterative here) something (oh not over yet) on you two based on my D3 wagon adds up. Even from a civilian pov, extra votes would have done me just as much as being drugged. There is Blind, on the other hand, of course, but if the seaside witness a manipulative deficit, why would he hunt you and Diiny - or rather why would that be the hint of his legacy?

So yeah, doesn't add up.
Do you agree with me that if seaside's apparent evidence doesn't seem to add up as incriminating evidence against Diiny and I, that it should instead serve as evidence in our favor?

I didn't say it doesn't add up as incriminating. I say it doesn't add up literally.

I'm having trouble seeing how the evidence can reside there in the first place. Legacies of confirmed roles such as his can still prove right or wrong. It's his insistance on the two of you that points to the root of that being the D3 tally. Yet I don't see how that's possible.

If D3 manipulation could be viable - albeit meaning I should have been dead

- then yes, I would lean on him having seen civ manipulation rather than Drugs, so something working in your favour. But the only civ manipulation with negatives is Blind's, I think? And if so, why would seaside suss one of you out at all?

#5784

Ricochet wrote:If D3 manipulation could be viable - albeit meaning I should have been dead - then yes, I would lean on him having seen civ manipulation rather than Drugs, so something working in your favour. But the only civ manipulation with negatives is Blind's, I think? And if so, why would seaside suss one of you out at all?

I honestly think seaside just saw that your vote total was not what it was supposed to be and then suspected everyone on the wagon as a result. I acknowledge this would mean that he never thoroughly read the roles in the game, but I don't see any other explanation.

#5785

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Matt F wrote:Why isn't Epignosis after you?
Let's ask him.

Epi: are you truly concerned enough with my capacity for contribution to forego lynching me as a player you do not trust? Has your read of me changed in any manner since MacDougall flipped mafia?

I think you are the obvious candidate for the lynch. And obvious doesn't bode well. Look at Sorsha. Look at Devin. A Mafia team of 7 with LC and MacDougall on it and you go defending one heavily?

Other items don't fit the narrative either. Black Rock has been revealed too, since people gunned for you. I gave a reason why that doesn't necessarily make you look better, but I have to try to manage all the data in this little pea brain of mine as well as possible.

I'm still juror #8 on you.

#5786

Matt F wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Matt F wrote:Epignosis - I feel that you wanting to lynch Floyd again instead of 3J plays right into what 3J was saying about "keep me around as long as possible until they need someone lynched".

On Day 7, you put your vote on 3J but were very open in the thread about being willing to change that vote if someone could convince you. Then you seemed to convince yourself by your admitted "starting the train" against seaside. Now again, you would rather lynch Floyd then 3J because "Even if Floyd is good, he's not contributing like 3J over here, who btw painted Mac straight townie all game".

Also, do you really think Elohcin could've been recruited? I notice she never answered you. Of course, i won't be willing to lynch her unless all of the Mafia are dead and suddenly in a night post it says "So and so killed by (Elohcin's role here)", but I'm just curious if you really thought that, or if you were just messing around with her.
If you want to lynch 3J, I won't stop you. All I'm saying is that a civilian 3J is far more useful than a civilian Floyd (even if 3J is wrong all the time).

As for recruitment, Psycho Killer has secrets. Roxy's game had a secret recruiter. MP's Bioshock game had recruitment out the wazoo. I just find her sudden shift against me unsettling, and ask yourself, if you were a recruiter, would you NOT take Elohcin?

I don't really believe any of this apart from mentioning that the possibility is there. Secret recruit teams are the pits because you can't do anything about them. In my experience, they always win.
Epignosis - Do you think it's strange that 3J just said that he believes the Mafia is trying to keep him around as long as possible so they can lynch him later when they need to, yet thinks you are good despite you, quite literally, enacting the very idea he just theorized? (ie "Let's not lynch 3J, let's get seaside. Let's not lynch 3J, let's get Floyd") Why doesn't 3J suspect you?

I think that's a terrible oversimplification of how Day 7 went down, Matt.

#5787

On the matter of Black Rock: I think it should be acknowledged that I pursued her lynch starting with my first thorough analysis of her, before the Day 6 Mac/Diiny/Black Rock tally drama and before she was in the modkill zone.

I also admit that I was late to the party because splints and Epi got there earlier, but as soon as I respected their reads enough to look for myself I voiced my total agreement.

#5788

Matt F wrote:Epignosis - Do you think it's strange that 3J just said that he believes the Mafia is trying to keep him around as long as possible so they can lynch him later when they need to, yet thinks you are good despite you, quite literally, enacting the very idea he just theorized? (ie "Let's not lynch 3J, let's get seaside. Let's not lynch 3J, let's get Floyd") Why doesn't 3J suspect you?

Epig, do you have a different opinion of 3J now that he has completely contradicted himself? Or are ya all still chums?

#5789

Matt F wrote:
Matt F wrote:Epignosis - Do you think it's strange that 3J just said that he believes the Mafia is trying to keep him around as long as possible so they can lynch him later when they need to, yet thinks you are good despite you, quite literally, enacting the very idea he just theorized? (ie "Let's not lynch 3J, let's get seaside. Let's not lynch 3J, let's get Floyd") Why doesn't 3J suspect you?
Epig, do you have a different opinion of 3J now that he has completely contradicted himself? Or are ya all still chums?

I am not understanding the contradiction. Please rephrase.

#5790

Matt F wrote:
Matt F wrote:Epignosis - Do you think it's strange that 3J just said that he believes the Mafia is trying to keep him around as long as possible so they can lynch him later when they need to, yet thinks you are good despite you, quite literally, enacting the very idea he just theorized? (ie "Let's not lynch 3J, let's get seaside. Let's not lynch 3J, let's get Floyd") Why doesn't 3J suspect you?
Epig, do you have a different opinion of 3J now that he has completely contradicted himself? Or are ya all still chums?

Matt, I think you might have the tendency to convince yourself of things on the strength of your own exaggerated language. LITERALLY. COMPLETELY.

I mean no offense: just think about that.

#5791

Okay, forget the literally.

You just said you believe the Mafia is trying to keep you around as long as possible until they absolutely need to get rid of you.

On day 7, Epignosis voted you right off the bat, then openly told the thread he was willing to change his vote if he could be convinced, then convinces himself and many voters to switch to seaside.

Today, on Day 8, says he believes you could still be bad but would rather lynch Floyd.

Today, on Day 8, you read Epignosis as "good" despite him enacting the very theory you just brought up.

I think you should think about that.

#5792

Matt F wrote:Okay, forget the literally.

You just said you believe the Mafia is trying to keep you around as long as possible until they absolutely need to get rid of you.

On day 7, Epignosis voted you right off the bat, then openly told the thread he was willing to change his vote if he could be convinced, then convinces himself and many voters to switch to seaside.

Today, on Day 8, says he believes you could still be bad but would rather lynch Floyd.

Today, on Day 8, you read Epignosis as "good" despite him enacting the very theory you just brought up.

I think you should think about that.

I just answered this. Do you have a problem with the answer I gave?

#5793

Epignosis wrote:
Elohcin wrote:
Epignosis wrote:For those interested in why I'm fairly certain MM isn't the Psycho Killer, it's the same reason I'm not: I don't miss PMs (especially kills).

One need only look at MM's Night 5 activity. He had 24 posts. No way he missed a PM that Night.

If you want to track down Psycho Killer, my advice would be to see who was inactive or barely active Night 5.
But there are so many people who aren't very active at all. What if the SK is lying low the whole time. And then there are those who don't care to talk a lot at night. What makes you think that is is MM specifically?
I don't think MM is Psycho Killer.

My point was that MM would not have missed his PM if he was.

Why did you vote him then? DO you think MM is bad? He seems civ to me.

#5794

Epignosis wrote:
Are you recruited?

How do I normally play?

No. What makes you thing that? I told you before how I perceive your normal play. You are usually very in-your-face about things, less fickle.

#5795

Epignosis wrote:
Matt F wrote:Epignosis - Do you feel more strongly that Floyd is mafia then 3J? What about motel room? Did you ever get a chance to examine his posts?

Linki - I don't trust Strawhenge. I think he knew Mac was scum before the Night Post revealed it. Why else would he accuse you and Motel Room of being his "scum buddy" and that he's "not buying it", yet he refuses to vote for the guy (when at the time, it was pretty close between Mac and Diiny I believe)

I would like an explanation on why you think Straw is civvie.
No, I haven't looked into motel room. I'll do that after supper.

I look at it this way: If Floyd is civilian, he isn't helping things (and I couldn't fault him, first game, so on and so forth). If Floyd is bad, he's made some real rookie mistakes we've let slide (again, couldn't fault him). If 3J is civilian, he's being helpful. If 3J is bad, then he's a much stronger civilian than he is a bad guy.

My point is that Floyd is contributing a lot less than 3J. This is almost a sort of Pascal's Wager, I know, but there it is.

But is JJJ is bad, he actually isn't being helpful. In fact, I think that a quiet baddie is more helpful to civs than a baddie who posts a lot. If JJJ is bad he knows who else is bad and has the ability to try to manipulate us. That isn't helpful.

#5796

That said, I am up for a JJJ or Floyd lynch. I will go with the majority. For now I wil leave my vote with JJJ though.

#5797

Elo, could you talk to me a little about why you suspect me -- even if it seems obvious to you? I don't know if I can change your mind, but I'd like the chance to try.

#5798

Elohcin wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Elohcin wrote:
Epignosis wrote:For those interested in why I'm fairly certain MM isn't the Psycho Killer, it's the same reason I'm not: I don't miss PMs (especially kills).

One need only look at MM's Night 5 activity. He had 24 posts. No way he missed a PM that Night.

If you want to track down Psycho Killer, my advice would be to see who was inactive or barely active Night 5.
But there are so many people who aren't very active at all. What if the SK is lying low the whole time. And then there are those who don't care to talk a lot at night. What makes you think that is is MM specifically?
I don't think MM is Psycho Killer.

My point was that MM would not have missed his PM if he was.
Why did you vote him then? DO you think MM is bad? He seems civ to me.

You really don't read the thread.

#5799

Elohcin wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Are you recruited?

How do I normally play?
No. What makes you thing that? I told you before how I perceive your normal play. You are usually very in-your-face about things, less fickle.

Golden wrote:
FZ. wrote:
Golden wrote:
Epignosis wrote:"Quiet Epi is never a good thing."

Well now let's see.

Raise your hand if loud Epi ever railroaded you when you were a civilian and got your ass lynched.

Raise your hand if you wished loud Epi would have shutted up the fuck.

I thought so.

I don't see why me being quiet is "never a good thing."
I concur with epi again.
Does concurring with him affect your trust of him? Do you not find it a little weird that Epi has done nothing to attract any attention so far? Is that what you expect of him in his civvie mode?
I expect that how abrasive epi is, is not inherently linked to his affiliation. So it does not make me think he is specifically good or bad. Last time I played with Epi and he was like this, he was not bad.

Golden wrote:Hey, Rico

If you expect me to correlate to metas in games where I'm not alive and totally active, you are way overestimating me in the first place.

Even so, my sense of you is that you legitimately don't have a meta. I think you are particularly adept at mixing it up, like epi. So, I'm not swayed by meta arguments, and I take you as a case by case basis. I may be wrong about that, but I've personally never had a sense from you of a particular meta for me to catch on to.

#5800

JaggedJimmyJay wrote:
Matt F wrote:Okay, forget the literally.

You just said you believe the Mafia is trying to keep you around as long as possible until they absolutely need to get rid of you.

On day 7, Epignosis voted you right off the bat, then openly told the thread he was willing to change his vote if he could be convinced, then convinces himself and many voters to switch to seaside.

Today, on Day 8, says he believes you could still be bad but would rather lynch Floyd.

Today, on Day 8, you read Epignosis as "good" despite him enacting the very theory you just brought up.

I think you should think about that.
I just answered this. Do you have a problem with the answer I gave?

Just reread it. So you think it's possible...except he suspect Floyd just like you so maybe not.

Epignosis is "completely" and "literally" going through with the theory you brought up, but let's lynch Floyd.

I'm down because I've wanted to lynch Floyd like half the game. But if he flips civvie, I'm going to spend the rest of the game kicking and screaming that you both get lynched afterwards. :P

Be back in a bit, need to eat!

How would you rate Talking Heads Mafia (RYM #90)?