Cartomancy [Game Over]

[Seanzie]

I think there is something very important going on between Mac and SPF.

tl;dr: SPF townreads Mac starting on Page 4, never gives a reason, not a single time, and it never wavers in the least. There are many w/w interactions between them. Mac looks like Mac wants to distance, but SPF is not doing a good job of showing critical thought on Mac. There is a small chance this is SPF/Mac w/t, but I think w/w powerwolfing is more likely here.

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So SPF has given me the heebee jeebees a few times, and Mac I think is playing like scum!Mac. SPF's most recent post where SPF said I was town for my case on Mac, and Mac questioned SPF's read on Mac, and SPF just said "I townread you" got my curious. I ISO'd SPF and ctrl+f'd the word "Mac". Here are the relevant posts I found, with my interpretations:

Spoiler: show

im not bored anymore though. i think bereft is town. i think porscha is town. i think mac is town. i think sig might be town. still figuring it out from there

This is 4 pages in, SPF townreads Mac without having mentioned them before. No reason given. Nothing particularly sus about this at this time, but we'll see.

Also kinda curious about the Bereft read. They didn't even register on my radar that early, will have to ISO their early game to see if I can actually make sense of a new player being townread that quickly.

here's where i'm at rn. it's a bit more hedgy than i'd like but meh

if kate is mafia then alison is probably town because i dont think that the way kate reacted to alison’s push on her felt like W/W interaction. the same applies for roxy as well but i currently perceive kate as having a slightly higher chance of being mafia than roxy. as for alison herself, i dunno. i understand that some of her arguments are easy to perceive in bad faith (like the way she poked at roxy earlier in a way where it did kind of feel like she was trying to ~dunk~ on her more than anything), but i’ve also played enough with alison to know that this style of engagement isn’t alignment indicative

so in the absence of reasons to scumread alison, and because i think alison is unaligned with 2 other ppl who are kinda in my POE, i’m at the very least not willing to vote for alison today

i like that baub felt like he had kind of positioned himself to be able to push on seanzie but then ended up backing off of him anyway. i also think his push on jack has felt like it came fro ma place of conviction. i don’t know how to read baub at all but i think he’s fine s ofar

i thought the way that bereft pushed on me while revealing that he was secretly repping a townread on me while doing so was towny. i thought the way it felt like he was projecting his view of the game (ie: “i dont find the game boring but spf finds the game boring so t herefore spf be mafia) was towny too. i townlean him

i think that creature replied decently to my concerns about him, but i do still find it difficult to shake the feeling that he is being rather careless with the way he is posting reads and acting overly confident and haughty in a way that is uncharacteristic from pretty much every game ive seen for him

i think it bothers me for a few reasons:

-his focus is all off. creature has obsessed over reading mac and me correctly in every game iver played with him but here he is pushing more on the LHF and not really engaging with either of us much at all

-he just made a post that said: “This wagon is so bad we could prob nuke everyone in it” , and this is the exact type of attitude i struggle to believe that creature would have as town

honestly i m having trouble letting go of this read on creature because he keeps making posts that ping me even though i acknowledge i could be relying on meta too strongly or confirmation biasingm yself, but yeah

tbh i kind of like the fact that dennis went out of his way to limit himself for potential options to push (by saying he isnt willing to vote any of kate/neon/lucy/falcon very early into the game) but i’m kind of ambivalent about his posts beyond that

the readslist that wilgy posted on viewtopic.php?p=1002310#p1002310 didn’t really feel proportional to the solving he had done up to that point. i don’t really get anything alignment indicative out of the rest of the stuff he’s posted

i have no idea how to read falcon and im not going to pretend that i can

i think the way that fingersplints followed up my question about the alison/roxy dynamic was towny. i need to see her post more before i make up my mind on her alignment tho

i thought the way that jack dug in his heels and stubbornly continued to hard tunnel alison even after i questioned him/tried to talk him down felt like it came more from the perspective of a villager who felt convicted over their scumread and less from a wolf, since i think wolves are more likely to capitulate to pressure when they are being questioned on their reads like that, or at least say more hedgy stuff like “alison could be town but…”

tbh though i might be giving jack too much of a pass because at the end of the day i do think that his reasoning for scumread alison is kind of bad and im unconsciously operating under the assumption that he has a polarized wolfgame, which is kind of making me treat him with gids gloves. idk. i dont want this read to be as null at it is but there u go

i think that p#120 from kate was a wolfy post and came off a little bit self-conscious. i thought she responded to pressure somewhat awkwardly too. i don’t have any other thoughts

lucy is town

i think mac is probably town for reasons that ill explain if u really want me to

im mildly bothered by the way that neon has treated me in this game. she has consistently shaded me and implied that it was wolfy for me to think that the game was boring during the first few pages and has regularly downplayed townreads on me, but she has offered no commentary on my posts beyond that whatsoever and she seems barely interested in engaging with me/communicating with me at all

it reminds me of the sabi invitational game where she consistently treated me in bad faith when she was mafia and i let it slide because i thought she was tonally towny/she had conviction. she’s essentially treating me the same way here and i’ve had trouble getting past it. i don’t really care about her posts beyond that and ive barely paid attention to them

i think porsche is most likely town because i perceive her as being mildly polarized and the depth of analysis/thought that she has projected so far is proly town indicative for her, and because i think #760 in particular would be a difficult post for a wolf to write about themselves, particularly if they traditionally struggle with wolfing in general

holding off on my rondo read for reasons

i think it was mildly wolfy that roxy shifted her positioning toward kate a bit awkwardly when she was engaging with alison but i would be lying if i said if i thought that any of her posts were alignment indicative. i i get the sense that she’s the type of player that will project towniness better if she’s town if she is left alone and able to do her own thing, so im not really interested in adding to the pressure on her at the moment and i’d like to see how she plays when she isn’t being bombarded by the rest of the game

i thought it was towny that seanzie used his experience with my wolfgame as a foundation for his reado n me in this game. i’m kind of ambivalent about the rest of his posts but i proly wuldnt touch him today

sig had a towny opening but his vote on alison a little while ago was bad and felt opportunistic. i actually scumlean him now

one of my biggest concerns about tutu was actually that she was townreading me too easily and uncritically so the fact that she suddenly got super paranoid about me being mafia and revoked her townread felt towny. idk how to read he but i would also not touch her today for various reasons

Big post, read on Mac highlighted. Again, says Mac is town but does not give reasons. Why not elaborate here? It is a big enough post that I don't think SPF felt like they would be asked to elaborate.

My strongest SR right now I think is Alison/Mac I just think they've been treating people poorly for bad reasons and are digging in their heels in a way that feels less like trying to solve the game and more like trying to make people look bad for things that aren't really that bad.

can you give me some examples of where you think mac specifically has done this?

That most recent post calling out half the player base for how they are playing when I think at least some of them are in their normal meta for one

SPF questions Neon about Mac, after Neon's response, SPF did not ever respond again.

ftr im insecure about my vote on jack and im not sure that im going to hold there

i just prefer him over the baud/alison wagons atm

What wagon(s) would you prefer instead?

i perceive the pool of creature/splints/falcon/sig as being likely to contain at least 2 wolves

I would guess you are probably correct.

I would say of the people casing/pushing me, Rondo is almost certainly town; Seanzie feels genuine; Falcon seems extremely sus. Bereft feels pure and his casing of Falcon was solid work.

Splints/sig/wilgy are flying utr.

Roxy seems rand to me; I think the pushback on Alison is likely at least partially wolf-driven though that doesn't mean much for Roxy's alignment imo.

Pretty tough to yeet mafia in this game state with 5 living so if you want to move to another wagon please @me, i'm out of posts. Who else do you trust?

i townread mac, lucy, bereft, tutuu, you, and sig roughly in that order. i'm not willing to vote for alison today even though i'm not sure about her alignment

i had fingersplints as a light townlean but she just hopped on alison in a way that extremely rubs me the wrong way

rest of the game feels kind of inscrutable to me rn

Another Mac townread without explanation

mac
lucy
tutuu
dennis
bereft
rondo
baud

my current townreads in the exact order that i townread them. i think there is one mafia maximum in this pool

im capped now so gl gl

Another Mac townread without explanation.

i really hope that a wolf did that.

I am not sure this is a real thought.

no, it was a bad decision but i dont care to debate it

possibly w/w theatre. Where did this go?

You guys should policy Mac if he doesn't produce pelts soon by the way since he's wrong on both fingersplints and me which is pretty out of form for him.

Shit I need to bus someone. Um, ah. Fuck um.

[VOTE: staypositivefriend] aubergine

slay queen

possibly w/w theatre. Weak w/w read though. Definitely w/w compatible, maybe not w/w indicative.

if creature roxy sig and jack contains more than one villager then this game is probably a loss

this is nonsense

why

it's blatantly untrue that town can't win unless all 3 are mafia and there's no reason to feel that way much less say it

your perception of the gamestate is very different from mine if you think that but okay

mine are mac, lucy, and bereft. if lucy doesn't count, then i would add tutuu.

SPF loves talking about their Mac townread. Also Bereft really fits the idea of SPF trying to hard powerwolf. As others have mentioned, Bereft clearly is not a newbie, and with almost nothing else known about them, I have a hard time thinking people are going to towncore them this hard. I need to give them a careful lookover before I really commit to this idea, so this is more spitballing than confident thought, but right now, SPF powerwolfing with Mac and Bereft is on my mind. For those who said Bereft wouldn't need to do what they've done as a wolf and could just slank since they're new, I mean... aren't they kinda doing that, just not completely and outrightly playing bad? I know the few times I've wolfed on my first time on a new sight, I've come off as a quiet but insightful townie.

cant sleep and wanted to share the stray thought that out of all the people who have pushed/shaded mac, seanzie is the towniest of them. his read on mac has a level of specificity (ie: him comparing mac to his wolfgame in GoC, him accusing mac of trying to destroy his WIM, him accusing mac of sharing responsibility for the alison wagon) that make me think he is putting real thought into mac's alignment, and the way he has kind of dug in his heels on his mac read upon being pressured makes me think that the conviction behind his real is real

i think a world where seanzie is a wolf pushing on mac only really makes sense to me if the rest of his team is cornered and he doesn't have many other viable options, but even in that world, i would expect seanzie to be a little bit more strategic about the way that he's pushing mac instead of just loudly insisting he's mafia in the most brazen way possible

i have no idea what seanzie's wolf meta is like so im open to other thoughts but yeah

and why is he not just correct?

btw porscha is lock town now

because i do not think you are mafia even if there exists a theoretical world in which you are playing significantly townier than every wolfgame i have seen from ou

Again no explanation of the town!Mac read here. This one I REALLY don't like, because the question isn't "Do you townread me?", it's "why isn't Sean correct", and SPF responded by NOT saying WHY they townread Mac, just that they townread Mac. "why isn't Sean correct" in this context is asking "WHY do you townread Mac". Bad. Bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad BAD.

I'd really like some input on this. The game does not feel like it is a bunch of polarized people and slankers wolfing. I think with 5 wolves in a 20 person setup, powerwolfing makes sense. Please someone talk to me.

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After going through and commenting on all the posts in the above spoiler, a new line of thinking came to me, included below. Spoilered because I am not super confident about it and it is not fully fleshed out and I don't want it to detract from what I have above about Mac/SPF (even though some if it leaked into the thoughts about the posts I've quoted)

Spoiler: show

Bereft fits perfectly into a Mac/SPF powerwolfing team, at least based on these posts and what I can remember off the top of my head from Bereft's play. I'mma go ISO them

[falcon45ca]

[VOTE: mac] aubergine

[Seanzie]

[VOTE: mac] aubergine

Are you trying to buddy me?

[Seanzie]

Re:Bereft: Okay, there was a bit more between Bereft and SPF before SPF started to townread Bereft on Page 5* (I thought it was page 4, but it is early page 5). I continue to not be super confident about Bereft's connection/involvement, but I still think they are at least compatible.

[falcon45ca]

[VOTE: mac] aubergine

Are you trying to buddy me?

If you don't think I've been SR Mac for a long time...scratch that, I know you do.

[Seanzie]

[VOTE: mac] aubergine

Are you trying to buddy me?

If you don't think I've been SR Mac for a long time...scratch that, I know you do.

Well sure, I'm not accusing you of lack of progression. That doesn't mean though that you aren't a wolf sitting on my shoulder deciding to whisper sweet nothings in my ear as I push Mac.

[falcon45ca]

[VOTE: mac] aubergine

Are you trying to buddy me?

If you don't think I've been SR Mac for a long time...scratch that, I know you do.

Well sure, I'm not accusing you of lack of progression. That doesn't mean though that you aren't a wolf sitting on my shoulder deciding to whisper sweet nothings in my ear as I push Mac.

I mean, I could tinfoil the same about you? But do you actually feel that I'm feeding you your Mac read via sweet whispers, or is it your own progression?


Tho we both see Mac as well within his wolf range, I feel Uta for very different reasons

[falcon45ca]

[VOTE: mac] aubergine

Are you trying to buddy me?

If you don't think I've been SR Mac for a long time...scratch that, I know you do.

Well sure, I'm not accusing you of lack of progression. That doesn't mean though that you aren't a wolf sitting on my shoulder deciding to whisper sweet nothings in my ear as I push Mac.

I mean, I could tinfoil the same about you? But do you actually feel that I'm feeding you your Mac read via sweet whispers, or is it your own progression?


Tho we both see Mac as well within his wolf range, I feel it's for very different reasons

Fixed. Fuxkin mobile

[RondoDimBuckle]

Are you guys fucking kidding me? You seriously killed Alison. I am so fucking pissed right now. I am done for now. Ill come back later If I can give a shit

Like why would this come as a surprise? The moon got played and there were people who suspected Alison?

Moreover, Rondo did fuck all to defend Alison.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

This is a bit reactionary, but I don’t like Lucy’s insistence here it’s game over or “throwing” if Alison is voted. No one person is game ending.

have you not read the game? What is going on here?

Lucy is either Town or IC and I am either IC or Town. We have both CCed each other as Oracle and have not resulted in a dome. Lucy and I are town core. She is more productive because I love chaos so I am happy to give her the lead on the lynch while I do my own thing. Stop doubting her. Both sides of the Oracle want Alison not going over today. (But I would like more Alison posts closer to EOD so I can soul read her)

@sig
@Jackofhearts2005
@Roxy
@fingersplints
@falcon45ca

Alison flips town > who are the wolves on your wagon? Who are the town?

Alison flips wolf > who bussed? who is pure?

@Porscha @Dennis @Creature onto roxy thanks

Why? I thought you preferred fingersplints

in an ideal world, where finger could possibly be unlynchable, i am trying to get a second wagon that isn't alison

host clarified, no lynch no second lynch, just bupkis. Alison will not be lynched

yep fuck all.

[falcon45ca]

Where's Wilgy? I feel like he's dipped this RD, and that's somewhat troubling


@DrWilgy Are you now, or have you ever been, a Doctor? Where ya's head at? I don't see you as my town core like I used to

[falcon45ca]

Are you guys fucking kidding me? You seriously killed Alison. I am so fucking pissed right now. I am done for now. Ill come back later If I can give a shit

Like why would this come as a surprise? The moon got played and there were people who suspected Alison?

Moreover, Rondo did fuck all to defend Alison.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

This is a bit reactionary, but I don’t like Lucy’s insistence here it’s game over or “throwing” if Alison is voted. No one person is game ending.

have you not read the game? What is going on here?

Lucy is either Town or IC and I am either IC or Town. We have both CCed each other as Oracle and have not resulted in a dome. Lucy and I are town core. She is more productive because I love chaos so I am happy to give her the lead on the lynch while I do my own thing. Stop doubting her. Both sides of the Oracle want Alison not going over today. (But I would like more Alison posts closer to EOD so I can soul read her)

@sig
@Jackofhearts2005
@Roxy
@fingersplints
@falcon45ca

Alison flips town > who are the wolves on your wagon? Who are the town?

Alison flips wolf > who bussed? who is pure?

@Porscha @Dennis @Creature onto roxy thanks

Why? I thought you preferred fingersplints

in an ideal world, where finger could possibly be unlynchable, i am trying to get a second wagon that isn't alison

host clarified, no lynch no second lynch, just bupkis. Alison will not be lynched

yep fuck all.

Do you seriously view that as strong defending of Alison?



Cuz I'd even upgrade that bitty bit sweet fuck all

[tutuu]

Shit there's bad stuff going on in Brazil right now and I can't focus on this game.

I hope things get better

[Bereft]

I think there is something very important going on between Mac and SPF.

tl;dr: SPF townreads Mac starting on Page 4, never gives a reason, not a single time, and it never wavers in the least. There are many w/w interactions between them. Mac looks like Mac wants to distance, but SPF is not doing a good job of showing critical thought on Mac. There is a small chance this is SPF/Mac w/t, but I think w/w powerwolfing is more likely here.

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So SPF has given me the heebee jeebees a few times, and Mac I think is playing like scum!Mac. SPF's most recent post where SPF said I was town for my case on Mac, and Mac questioned SPF's read on Mac, and SPF just said "I townread you" got my curious. I ISO'd SPF and ctrl+f'd the word "Mac". Here are the relevant posts I found, with my interpretations:

Spoiler: show

im not bored anymore though. i think bereft is town. i think porscha is town. i think mac is town. i think sig might be town. still figuring it out from there

This is 4 pages in, SPF townreads Mac without having mentioned them before. No reason given. Nothing particularly sus about this at this time, but we'll see.

Also kinda curious about the Bereft read. They didn't even register on my radar that early, will have to ISO their early game to see if I can actually make sense of a new player being townread that quickly.

here's where i'm at rn. it's a bit more hedgy than i'd like but meh

if kate is mafia then alison is probably town because i dont think that the way kate reacted to alison’s push on her felt like W/W interaction. the same applies for roxy as well but i currently perceive kate as having a slightly higher chance of being mafia than roxy. as for alison herself, i dunno. i understand that some of her arguments are easy to perceive in bad faith (like the way she poked at roxy earlier in a way where it did kind of feel like she was trying to ~dunk~ on her more than anything), but i’ve also played enough with alison to know that this style of engagement isn’t alignment indicative

so in the absence of reasons to scumread alison, and because i think alison is unaligned with 2 other ppl who are kinda in my POE, i’m at the very least not willing to vote for alison today

i like that baub felt like he had kind of positioned himself to be able to push on seanzie but then ended up backing off of him anyway. i also think his push on jack has felt like it came fro ma place of conviction. i don’t know how to read baub at all but i think he’s fine s ofar

i thought the way that bereft pushed on me while revealing that he was secretly repping a townread on me while doing so was towny. i thought the way it felt like he was projecting his view of the game (ie: “i dont find the game boring but spf finds the game boring so t herefore spf be mafia) was towny too. i townlean him

i think that creature replied decently to my concerns about him, but i do still find it difficult to shake the feeling that he is being rather careless with the way he is posting reads and acting overly confident and haughty in a way that is uncharacteristic from pretty much every game ive seen for him

i think it bothers me for a few reasons:

-his focus is all off. creature has obsessed over reading mac and me correctly in every game iver played with him but here he is pushing more on the LHF and not really engaging with either of us much at all

-he just made a post that said: “This wagon is so bad we could prob nuke everyone in it” , and this is the exact type of attitude i struggle to believe that creature would have as town

honestly i m having trouble letting go of this read on creature because he keeps making posts that ping me even though i acknowledge i could be relying on meta too strongly or confirmation biasingm yself, but yeah

tbh i kind of like the fact that dennis went out of his way to limit himself for potential options to push (by saying he isnt willing to vote any of kate/neon/lucy/falcon very early into the game) but i’m kind of ambivalent about his posts beyond that

the readslist that wilgy posted on viewtopic.php?p=1002310#p1002310 didn’t really feel proportional to the solving he had done up to that point. i don’t really get anything alignment indicative out of the rest of the stuff he’s posted

i have no idea how to read falcon and im not going to pretend that i can

i think the way that fingersplints followed up my question about the alison/roxy dynamic was towny. i need to see her post more before i make up my mind on her alignment tho

i thought the way that jack dug in his heels and stubbornly continued to hard tunnel alison even after i questioned him/tried to talk him down felt like it came more from the perspective of a villager who felt convicted over their scumread and less from a wolf, since i think wolves are more likely to capitulate to pressure when they are being questioned on their reads like that, or at least say more hedgy stuff like “alison could be town but…”

tbh though i might be giving jack too much of a pass because at the end of the day i do think that his reasoning for scumread alison is kind of bad and im unconsciously operating under the assumption that he has a polarized wolfgame, which is kind of making me treat him with gids gloves. idk. i dont want this read to be as null at it is but there u go

i think that p#120 from kate was a wolfy post and came off a little bit self-conscious. i thought she responded to pressure somewhat awkwardly too. i don’t have any other thoughts

lucy is town

i think mac is probably town for reasons that ill explain if u really want me to

im mildly bothered by the way that neon has treated me in this game. she has consistently shaded me and implied that it was wolfy for me to think that the game was boring during the first few pages and has regularly downplayed townreads on me, but she has offered no commentary on my posts beyond that whatsoever and she seems barely interested in engaging with me/communicating with me at all

it reminds me of the sabi invitational game where she consistently treated me in bad faith when she was mafia and i let it slide because i thought she was tonally towny/she had conviction. she’s essentially treating me the same way here and i’ve had trouble getting past it. i don’t really care about her posts beyond that and ive barely paid attention to them

i think porsche is most likely town because i perceive her as being mildly polarized and the depth of analysis/thought that she has projected so far is proly town indicative for her, and because i think #760 in particular would be a difficult post for a wolf to write about themselves, particularly if they traditionally struggle with wolfing in general

holding off on my rondo read for reasons

i think it was mildly wolfy that roxy shifted her positioning toward kate a bit awkwardly when she was engaging with alison but i would be lying if i said if i thought that any of her posts were alignment indicative. i i get the sense that she’s the type of player that will project towniness better if she’s town if she is left alone and able to do her own thing, so im not really interested in adding to the pressure on her at the moment and i’d like to see how she plays when she isn’t being bombarded by the rest of the game

i thought it was towny that seanzie used his experience with my wolfgame as a foundation for his reado n me in this game. i’m kind of ambivalent about the rest of his posts but i proly wuldnt touch him today

sig had a towny opening but his vote on alison a little while ago was bad and felt opportunistic. i actually scumlean him now

one of my biggest concerns about tutu was actually that she was townreading me too easily and uncritically so the fact that she suddenly got super paranoid about me being mafia and revoked her townread felt towny. idk how to read he but i would also not touch her today for various reasons

Big post, read on Mac highlighted. Again, says Mac is town but does not give reasons. Why not elaborate here? It is a big enough post that I don't think SPF felt like they would be asked to elaborate.

My strongest SR right now I think is Alison/Mac I just think they've been treating people poorly for bad reasons and are digging in their heels in a way that feels less like trying to solve the game and more like trying to make people look bad for things that aren't really that bad.

can you give me some examples of where you think mac specifically has done this?

That most recent post calling out half the player base for how they are playing when I think at least some of them are in their normal meta for one

SPF questions Neon about Mac, after Neon's response, SPF did not ever respond again.

ftr im insecure about my vote on jack and im not sure that im going to hold there

i just prefer him over the baud/alison wagons atm

What wagon(s) would you prefer instead?

i perceive the pool of creature/splints/falcon/sig as being likely to contain at least 2 wolves

I would guess you are probably correct.

I would say of the people casing/pushing me, Rondo is almost certainly town; Seanzie feels genuine; Falcon seems extremely sus. Bereft feels pure and his casing of Falcon was solid work.

Splints/sig/wilgy are flying utr.

Roxy seems rand to me; I think the pushback on Alison is likely at least partially wolf-driven though that doesn't mean much for Roxy's alignment imo.

Pretty tough to yeet mafia in this game state with 5 living so if you want to move to another wagon please @me, i'm out of posts. Who else do you trust?

i townread mac, lucy, bereft, tutuu, you, and sig roughly in that order. i'm not willing to vote for alison today even though i'm not sure about her alignment

i had fingersplints as a light townlean but she just hopped on alison in a way that extremely rubs me the wrong way

rest of the game feels kind of inscrutable to me rn

Another Mac townread without explanation

mac
lucy
tutuu
dennis
bereft
rondo
baud

my current townreads in the exact order that i townread them. i think there is one mafia maximum in this pool

im capped now so gl gl

Another Mac townread without explanation.

i really hope that a wolf did that.

I am not sure this is a real thought.

no, it was a bad decision but i dont care to debate it

possibly w/w theatre. Where did this go?

You guys should policy Mac if he doesn't produce pelts soon by the way since he's wrong on both fingersplints and me which is pretty out of form for him.

Shit I need to bus someone. Um, ah. Fuck um.

[VOTE: staypositivefriend] aubergine

slay queen

possibly w/w theatre. Weak w/w read though. Definitely w/w compatible, maybe not w/w indicative.

if creature roxy sig and jack contains more than one villager then this game is probably a loss

this is nonsense

why

it's blatantly untrue that town can't win unless all 3 are mafia and there's no reason to feel that way much less say it

your perception of the gamestate is very different from mine if you think that but okay

mine are mac, lucy, and bereft. if lucy doesn't count, then i would add tutuu.

SPF loves talking about their Mac townread. Also Bereft really fits the idea of SPF trying to hard powerwolf. As others have mentioned, Bereft clearly is not a newbie, and with almost nothing else known about them, I have a hard time thinking people are going to towncore them this hard. I need to give them a careful lookover before I really commit to this idea, so this is more spitballing than confident thought, but right now, SPF powerwolfing with Mac and Bereft is on my mind. For those who said Bereft wouldn't need to do what they've done as a wolf and could just slank since they're new, I mean... aren't they kinda doing that, just not completely and outrightly playing bad? I know the few times I've wolfed on my first time on a new sight, I've come off as a quiet but insightful townie.

cant sleep and wanted to share the stray thought that out of all the people who have pushed/shaded mac, seanzie is the towniest of them. his read on mac has a level of specificity (ie: him comparing mac to his wolfgame in GoC, him accusing mac of trying to destroy his WIM, him accusing mac of sharing responsibility for the alison wagon) that make me think he is putting real thought into mac's alignment, and the way he has kind of dug in his heels on his mac read upon being pressured makes me think that the conviction behind his real is real

i think a world where seanzie is a wolf pushing on mac only really makes sense to me if the rest of his team is cornered and he doesn't have many other viable options, but even in that world, i would expect seanzie to be a little bit more strategic about the way that he's pushing mac instead of just loudly insisting he's mafia in the most brazen way possible

i have no idea what seanzie's wolf meta is like so im open to other thoughts but yeah

and why is he not just correct?

btw porscha is lock town now

because i do not think you are mafia even if there exists a theoretical world in which you are playing significantly townier than every wolfgame i have seen from ou

Again no explanation of the town!Mac read here. This one I REALLY don't like, because the question isn't "Do you townread me?", it's "why isn't Sean correct", and SPF responded by NOT saying WHY they townread Mac, just that they townread Mac. "why isn't Sean correct" in this context is asking "WHY do you townread Mac". Bad. Bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad BAD.

I'd really like some input on this. The game does not feel like it is a bunch of polarized people and slankers wolfing. I think with 5 wolves in a 20 person setup, powerwolfing makes sense. Please someone talk to me.

---------------------------------------
After going through and commenting on all the posts in the above spoiler, a new line of thinking came to me, included below. Spoilered because I am not super confident about it and it is not fully fleshed out and I don't want it to detract from what I have above about Mac/SPF (even though some if it leaked into the thoughts about the posts I've quoted)

Spoiler: show

Bereft fits perfectly into a Mac/SPF powerwolfing team, at least based on these posts and what I can remember off the top of my head from Bereft's play. I'mma go ISO them

I don't know of a satisfactory way that does not require a dissertation length post, or at least something that would cause me a great deal of intellectual labor to come across as being appropriately convincing since it seems that you're really in the weeds with this.

I believe that Mac is a polarized player, and that it is easy to distinguish their ranges as long as you pay attention to the right things, and the only problem is that everyone pays attention to the wrong things and over level themselves because Mac is all powerful and can apparently do anything as wolf and can only destroy wolves as town.

If you want to scumread all of the stronger players for having this exact same opinion on Mac, then that is a worldview one can construct (have you considered Lucy yet for diving a locktown Mac out of thin air?, oh wait I forgot they're the oracle, so it would just be me and SPF), but I would only ask that you elaborate on why exactly the gamestate points to the obvious pool of wolves not containing enough of them. You claim that the POE consists of the polarized players and slankers and that it "doesn't feel that why". Firstly, who are the polarized players being misread? Mac already admitted that their Falcon scumread was heavily OMGUS based and should not be trusted. Are there other people who are obv town by meta that are being scumread? Because I cannot seem to find any, and if you'd read my coldlist you'd know that I pay a great deal attention to claims of alignment based on meta. Secondly, I understand that uncovering Mac powerwolfing with SPF and Bereft is glamorous, but I don't even understand what vibes would lead you to think that is especially likely. Do you think Creature is mafia? Because if not, the D1 wagons were all on town and all of us, (Mac/SPF/me) stated pretty clearly that we thought the wagons were awful in tandem with baudib. (note that SPF scumread creature but I would think this to be a minor point)

This is also coincidentally why I most want sig dead if possible, because it would pretty much expose what's been happening all along FMPOV.

[DrWilgy]

@DrWilgy @Jackofhearts2005 if ur town please be towny

K

[DrWilgy]

Where's Wilgy? I feel like he's dipped this RD, and that's somewhat troubling


@DrWilgy Are you now, or have you ever been, a Doctor? Where ya's head at? I don't see you as my town core like I used to

No, I've just been committing fraud for the past few years of my life.

What dropped me out of town core? I needed to take a break from the game and such.

So back to my original postulation that there was a wolf in the early Kate wagon. Likely just [VOTE: creature] aubergine at this point. So I'll vote there before I try to catch up now. Will likely skim and ISO for a few hours this evening.

[RondoDimBuckle]

Bereft's play today has not been amazing imho and for someone under the radar his pushes and posts in the last few pages have felt wolfy to me. Mac is now in wolf range since he is pretending he doesnt know what I am talking about and I am removing my protection for Mac

[Seanzie]

I think there is something very important going on between Mac and SPF.

tl;dr: SPF townreads Mac starting on Page 4, never gives a reason, not a single time, and it never wavers in the least. There are many w/w interactions between them. Mac looks like Mac wants to distance, but SPF is not doing a good job of showing critical thought on Mac. There is a small chance this is SPF/Mac w/t, but I think w/w powerwolfing is more likely here.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So SPF has given me the heebee jeebees a few times, and Mac I think is playing like scum!Mac. SPF's most recent post where SPF said I was town for my case on Mac, and Mac questioned SPF's read on Mac, and SPF just said "I townread you" got my curious. I ISO'd SPF and ctrl+f'd the word "Mac". Here are the relevant posts I found, with my interpretations:

Spoiler: show

im not bored anymore though. i think bereft is town. i think porscha is town. i think mac is town. i think sig might be town. still figuring it out from there

This is 4 pages in, SPF townreads Mac without having mentioned them before. No reason given. Nothing particularly sus about this at this time, but we'll see.

Also kinda curious about the Bereft read. They didn't even register on my radar that early, will have to ISO their early game to see if I can actually make sense of a new player being townread that quickly.

here's where i'm at rn. it's a bit more hedgy than i'd like but meh

if kate is mafia then alison is probably town because i dont think that the way kate reacted to alison’s push on her felt like W/W interaction. the same applies for roxy as well but i currently perceive kate as having a slightly higher chance of being mafia than roxy. as for alison herself, i dunno. i understand that some of her arguments are easy to perceive in bad faith (like the way she poked at roxy earlier in a way where it did kind of feel like she was trying to ~dunk~ on her more than anything), but i’ve also played enough with alison to know that this style of engagement isn’t alignment indicative

so in the absence of reasons to scumread alison, and because i think alison is unaligned with 2 other ppl who are kinda in my POE, i’m at the very least not willing to vote for alison today

i like that baub felt like he had kind of positioned himself to be able to push on seanzie but then ended up backing off of him anyway. i also think his push on jack has felt like it came fro ma place of conviction. i don’t know how to read baub at all but i think he’s fine s ofar

i thought the way that bereft pushed on me while revealing that he was secretly repping a townread on me while doing so was towny. i thought the way it felt like he was projecting his view of the game (ie: “i dont find the game boring but spf finds the game boring so t herefore spf be mafia) was towny too. i townlean him

i think that creature replied decently to my concerns about him, but i do still find it difficult to shake the feeling that he is being rather careless with the way he is posting reads and acting overly confident and haughty in a way that is uncharacteristic from pretty much every game ive seen for him

i think it bothers me for a few reasons:

-his focus is all off. creature has obsessed over reading mac and me correctly in every game iver played with him but here he is pushing more on the LHF and not really engaging with either of us much at all

-he just made a post that said: “This wagon is so bad we could prob nuke everyone in it” , and this is the exact type of attitude i struggle to believe that creature would have as town

honestly i m having trouble letting go of this read on creature because he keeps making posts that ping me even though i acknowledge i could be relying on meta too strongly or confirmation biasingm yself, but yeah

tbh i kind of like the fact that dennis went out of his way to limit himself for potential options to push (by saying he isnt willing to vote any of kate/neon/lucy/falcon very early into the game) but i’m kind of ambivalent about his posts beyond that

the readslist that wilgy posted on viewtopic.php?p=1002310#p1002310 didn’t really feel proportional to the solving he had done up to that point. i don’t really get anything alignment indicative out of the rest of the stuff he’s posted

i have no idea how to read falcon and im not going to pretend that i can

i think the way that fingersplints followed up my question about the alison/roxy dynamic was towny. i need to see her post more before i make up my mind on her alignment tho

i thought the way that jack dug in his heels and stubbornly continued to hard tunnel alison even after i questioned him/tried to talk him down felt like it came more from the perspective of a villager who felt convicted over their scumread and less from a wolf, since i think wolves are more likely to capitulate to pressure when they are being questioned on their reads like that, or at least say more hedgy stuff like “alison could be town but…”

tbh though i might be giving jack too much of a pass because at the end of the day i do think that his reasoning for scumread alison is kind of bad and im unconsciously operating under the assumption that he has a polarized wolfgame, which is kind of making me treat him with gids gloves. idk. i dont want this read to be as null at it is but there u go

i think that p#120 from kate was a wolfy post and came off a little bit self-conscious. i thought she responded to pressure somewhat awkwardly too. i don’t have any other thoughts

lucy is town

i think mac is probably town for reasons that ill explain if u really want me to

im mildly bothered by the way that neon has treated me in this game. she has consistently shaded me and implied that it was wolfy for me to think that the game was boring during the first few pages and has regularly downplayed townreads on me, but she has offered no commentary on my posts beyond that whatsoever and she seems barely interested in engaging with me/communicating with me at all

it reminds me of the sabi invitational game where she consistently treated me in bad faith when she was mafia and i let it slide because i thought she was tonally towny/she had conviction. she’s essentially treating me the same way here and i’ve had trouble getting past it. i don’t really care about her posts beyond that and ive barely paid attention to them

i think porsche is most likely town because i perceive her as being mildly polarized and the depth of analysis/thought that she has projected so far is proly town indicative for her, and because i think #760 in particular would be a difficult post for a wolf to write about themselves, particularly if they traditionally struggle with wolfing in general

holding off on my rondo read for reasons

i think it was mildly wolfy that roxy shifted her positioning toward kate a bit awkwardly when she was engaging with alison but i would be lying if i said if i thought that any of her posts were alignment indicative. i i get the sense that she’s the type of player that will project towniness better if she’s town if she is left alone and able to do her own thing, so im not really interested in adding to the pressure on her at the moment and i’d like to see how she plays when she isn’t being bombarded by the rest of the game

i thought it was towny that seanzie used his experience with my wolfgame as a foundation for his reado n me in this game. i’m kind of ambivalent about the rest of his posts but i proly wuldnt touch him today

sig had a towny opening but his vote on alison a little while ago was bad and felt opportunistic. i actually scumlean him now

one of my biggest concerns about tutu was actually that she was townreading me too easily and uncritically so the fact that she suddenly got super paranoid about me being mafia and revoked her townread felt towny. idk how to read he but i would also not touch her today for various reasons

Big post, read on Mac highlighted. Again, says Mac is town but does not give reasons. Why not elaborate here? It is a big enough post that I don't think SPF felt like they would be asked to elaborate.

My strongest SR right now I think is Alison/Mac I just think they've been treating people poorly for bad reasons and are digging in their heels in a way that feels less like trying to solve the game and more like trying to make people look bad for things that aren't really that bad.

can you give me some examples of where you think mac specifically has done this?

That most recent post calling out half the player base for how they are playing when I think at least some of them are in their normal meta for one

SPF questions Neon about Mac, after Neon's response, SPF did not ever respond again.

ftr im insecure about my vote on jack and im not sure that im going to hold there

i just prefer him over the baud/alison wagons atm

What wagon(s) would you prefer instead?

i perceive the pool of creature/splints/falcon/sig as being likely to contain at least 2 wolves

I would guess you are probably correct.

I would say of the people casing/pushing me, Rondo is almost certainly town; Seanzie feels genuine; Falcon seems extremely sus. Bereft feels pure and his casing of Falcon was solid work.

Splints/sig/wilgy are flying utr.

Roxy seems rand to me; I think the pushback on Alison is likely at least partially wolf-driven though that doesn't mean much for Roxy's alignment imo.

Pretty tough to yeet mafia in this game state with 5 living so if you want to move to another wagon please @me, i'm out of posts. Who else do you trust?

i townread mac, lucy, bereft, tutuu, you, and sig roughly in that order. i'm not willing to vote for alison today even though i'm not sure about her alignment

i had fingersplints as a light townlean but she just hopped on alison in a way that extremely rubs me the wrong way

rest of the game feels kind of inscrutable to me rn

Another Mac townread without explanation

mac
lucy
tutuu
dennis
bereft
rondo
baud

my current townreads in the exact order that i townread them. i think there is one mafia maximum in this pool

im capped now so gl gl

Another Mac townread without explanation.

i really hope that a wolf did that.

I am not sure this is a real thought.

no, it was a bad decision but i dont care to debate it

possibly w/w theatre. Where did this go?

You guys should policy Mac if he doesn't produce pelts soon by the way since he's wrong on both fingersplints and me which is pretty out of form for him.

Shit I need to bus someone. Um, ah. Fuck um.

[VOTE: staypositivefriend] aubergine

slay queen

possibly w/w theatre. Weak w/w read though. Definitely w/w compatible, maybe not w/w indicative.

if creature roxy sig and jack contains more than one villager then this game is probably a loss

this is nonsense

why

it's blatantly untrue that town can't win unless all 3 are mafia and there's no reason to feel that way much less say it

your perception of the gamestate is very different from mine if you think that but okay

mine are mac, lucy, and bereft. if lucy doesn't count, then i would add tutuu.

SPF loves talking about their Mac townread. Also Bereft really fits the idea of SPF trying to hard powerwolf. As others have mentioned, Bereft clearly is not a newbie, and with almost nothing else known about them, I have a hard time thinking people are going to towncore them this hard. I need to give them a careful lookover before I really commit to this idea, so this is more spitballing than confident thought, but right now, SPF powerwolfing with Mac and Bereft is on my mind. For those who said Bereft wouldn't need to do what they've done as a wolf and could just slank since they're new, I mean... aren't they kinda doing that, just not completely and outrightly playing bad? I know the few times I've wolfed on my first time on a new sight, I've come off as a quiet but insightful townie.

cant sleep and wanted to share the stray thought that out of all the people who have pushed/shaded mac, seanzie is the towniest of them. his read on mac has a level of specificity (ie: him comparing mac to his wolfgame in GoC, him accusing mac of trying to destroy his WIM, him accusing mac of sharing responsibility for the alison wagon) that make me think he is putting real thought into mac's alignment, and the way he has kind of dug in his heels on his mac read upon being pressured makes me think that the conviction behind his real is real

i think a world where seanzie is a wolf pushing on mac only really makes sense to me if the rest of his team is cornered and he doesn't have many other viable options, but even in that world, i would expect seanzie to be a little bit more strategic about the way that he's pushing mac instead of just loudly insisting he's mafia in the most brazen way possible

i have no idea what seanzie's wolf meta is like so im open to other thoughts but yeah

and why is he not just correct?

btw porscha is lock town now

because i do not think you are mafia even if there exists a theoretical world in which you are playing significantly townier than every wolfgame i have seen from ou

Again no explanation of the town!Mac read here. This one I REALLY don't like, because the question isn't "Do you townread me?", it's "why isn't Sean correct", and SPF responded by NOT saying WHY they townread Mac, just that they townread Mac. "why isn't Sean correct" in this context is asking "WHY do you townread Mac". Bad. Bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad bad BAD.

I'd really like some input on this. The game does not feel like it is a bunch of polarized people and slankers wolfing. I think with 5 wolves in a 20 person setup, powerwolfing makes sense. Please someone talk to me.

---------------------------------------
After going through and commenting on all the posts in the above spoiler, a new line of thinking came to me, included below. Spoilered because I am not super confident about it and it is not fully fleshed out and I don't want it to detract from what I have above about Mac/SPF (even though some if it leaked into the thoughts about the posts I've quoted)

Spoiler: show

Bereft fits perfectly into a Mac/SPF powerwolfing team, at least based on these posts and what I can remember off the top of my head from Bereft's play. I'mma go ISO them

I don't know of a satisfactory way that does not require a dissertation length post, or at least something that would cause me a great deal of intellectual labor to come across as being appropriately convincing since it seems that you're really in the weeds with this.

I believe that Mac is a polarized player, and that it is easy to distinguish their ranges as long as you pay attention to the right things, and the only problem is that everyone pays attention to the wrong things and over level themselves because Mac is all powerful and can apparently do anything as wolf and can only destroy wolves as town.

If you want to scumread all of the stronger players for having this exact same opinion on Mac, then that is a worldview one can construct (have you considered Lucy yet for diving a locktown Mac out of thin air?, oh wait I forgot they're the oracle, so it would just be me and SPF), but I would only ask that you elaborate on why exactly the gamestate points to the obvious pool of wolves not containing enough of them. You claim that the POE consists of the polarized players and slankers and that it "doesn't feel that why". Firstly, who are the polarized players being misread? Mac already admitted that their Falcon scumread was heavily OMGUS based and should not be trusted. Are there other people who are obv town by meta that are being scumread? Because I cannot seem to find any, and if you'd read my coldlist you'd know that I pay a great deal attention to claims of alignment based on meta. Secondly, I understand that uncovering Mac powerwolfing with SPF and Bereft is glamorous, but I don't even understand what vibes would lead you to think that is especially likely. Do you think Creature is mafia? Because if not, the D1 wagons were all on town and all of us, (Mac/SPF/me) stated pretty clearly that we thought the wagons were awful in tandem with baudib. (note that SPF scumread creature but I would think this to be a minor point)

This is also coincidentally why I most want sig dead if possible, because it would pretty much expose what's been happening all along FMPOV.

What are those things?

Falcon, Creature, maybe Porscha. I'm also not super sold on Roxy, but I am not confident there because they could be experiencing wolf-fatigue causing their play to be very different then their last two games.

You yourself say here that D1 wagons were mostly on town. D2 I think it is extremely likely the wolves got off a good use of the moon card even after getting a bit knocked back by the sun card. These things require thread control, if there was a strong towncore of top players that formed on Page 5, how is it that every indication is suggesting that town is way off? Those vibes.

Regardless, your inclusion, as I very strongly indicated, was a weak read, more of a "I need to check on this" rather than something I wanted to argue about. Can you talk to me about the main point, that SPF has been just declaring Mac town from the start and hasn't explained at all, and that SPF/Mac interactions could be w/w? I get your name showing up makes you want to talk about that, but I don't want to talk about that, especially after reading your first nine posts. I want to talk about Mac and SPF.

[Seanzie]

Also, @Bereft can you tldr your mafia experience level, and tell me who you know here and how familiar you are with people?

[Seanzie]

Bereft's play today has not been amazing imho and for someone under the radar his pushes and posts in the last few pages have felt wolfy to me. Mac is now in wolf range since he is pretending he doesnt know what I am talking about and I am removing my protection for Mac

Can you elaborate on Bereft? Which posts, and why?

[RondoDimBuckle]

Upon perusing Rondo's iso, it's very towny.
Creature is extremely towny, you can't just have the same exact worldview as me and be wolf.

Perused my ISO and has nothing to show from it other than to call me town. What? Where? When? Why? How? They are only calling me town because the rest of town isnt pushing me or has decided I am town or they have TMI and use the current thread state to get quick reason why they havent been pushing me out.

I also disagree that creature has been extremely towny. They have been towny but not extremely. Wolves have the same worldview as people all the time. Some times they copy town worldview. But hey it could be w/w

I will take the L on not calling Roxy obvious mafia; upon reshoring Creature, Rondo, Porscha as stronger townreads, there literally isn't much room and Roxy has been L0 wolfy. Roxy disappeared because of IRL, and as such could not play to the best of their abilities.

Doesnt think Roxy is a wolf but also Roxy is a wolf. Nice hedging

I can even answer my own question, "bad town plays" is just "voted Roxy".

Anyways, if Wilgy were town in tutuu's line of logic, I'd expect to see a defense of Wilgy, and again I've seen zilch. Roxy putting them as ok doesn't change any of this. Its "antispew", just don't bother reading into it in general.

A soft push on Wilgy for when he eventually flips wolf

Ps this is my only appearance this day. I voted Dennis

Bc I won't be back or respond to anyone.

If you wont highlight how its obvious on Dennis I wont vote him or rally on your behalf

Fu Rondo for making me want to help you


Every game, 2 so far, he finds his own suspicions he did it in his own fashion, this game feels like he is being led in the thread by whatever bad town play is in action. No questions just doing what he told. He did not do this before in either game. It feels like a mafia member told him here's how to be bad. And it's obv bc It does not fit with his play from the other games.



Ps this ploy will no longer work and will self destruct when I hit submit

And exactly what bad town plays would that be?

Anyways, I don't perceive Roxy as being an outed wolf (if they are a wolf they're obviously in antispew, its actually a pretty blatant antispew now that I think about it), nor do I think that Wilgy gets spewed town by anything that has happened.

Roxy isnt a wolf... but they are in antispew now that I think about it but I am not going to vote there or look further into it.

And the wind is blowing against wilgy so I will bus him (I still think Mac might be right that Wilgy got some flakk and no D is interesting)

Look at that beatiful posturing on Roxy/Kate.
Look at that beatiful casting of doubt on Mac/Alison/Rondo/SPF/Tutuu.

I’m definitely eyeing Allison and rondo right now the most.

Mac is a hazy read he’s playing a bit weird, but not ready to commit to a read either way.

Jack, falcon, Sean, Porsche, and Lucy, are all people I’d not want to vote off today.


I think Roxy looked very good with her responses and I see where she’s coming from. However, she just tricked me last game and civ reading Kate after she just said she hard protects teammates doesn’t mean a lot. They were just mafia together though so the odds are in our favor they’re not both mafia.


I’ll add for those not familiar Roxy is old school from the TS era where you need to be alive to win games as a civ. That’ll change her approach a bit and make her do some stuff that might come across as weird.

Stay positive and tuutuu are both posting but I’ve got zero reads on them which I don’t like

The most wolf-agendaed post in this game is this one.

This is either distancing from Sig OR its actually a towny post that I like.

Bereft's play today has not been amazing imho and for someone under the radar his pushes and posts in the last few pages have felt wolfy to me. Mac is now in wolf range since he is pretending he doesnt know what I am talking about and I am removing my protection for Mac

Can you elaborate on Bereft? Which posts, and why?

I am not going to hard push him over other slots today but again, not impressed with the posting

[RondoDimBuckle]

Are you guys fucking kidding me? You seriously killed Alison. I am so fucking pissed right now. I am done for now. Ill come back later If I can give a shit

Like why would this come as a surprise? The moon got played and there were people who suspected Alison?

Moreover, Rondo did fuck all to defend Alison.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

This is a bit reactionary, but I don’t like Lucy’s insistence here it’s game over or “throwing” if Alison is voted. No one person is game ending.

have you not read the game? What is going on here?

Lucy is either Town or IC and I am either IC or Town. We have both CCed each other as Oracle and have not resulted in a dome. Lucy and I are town core. She is more productive because I love chaos so I am happy to give her the lead on the lynch while I do my own thing. Stop doubting her. Both sides of the Oracle want Alison not going over today. (But I would like more Alison posts closer to EOD so I can soul read her)

@sig
@Jackofhearts2005
@Roxy
@fingersplints
@falcon45ca

Alison flips town > who are the wolves on your wagon? Who are the town?

Alison flips wolf > who bussed? who is pure?

@Porscha @Dennis @Creature onto roxy thanks

Why? I thought you preferred fingersplints

in an ideal world, where finger could possibly be unlynchable, i am trying to get a second wagon that isn't alison

host clarified, no lynch no second lynch, just bupkis. Alison will not be lynched

yep fuck all.

Do you seriously view that as strong defending of Alison?



Cuz I'd even upgrade that bitty bit sweet fuck all

You know, for a game about collaboration you really suck at collaborating fyi

At that point in time everyone was trying to get Alison over. It took the combined efforts of myself Lucy and Mac to start the FSP wagon to save her. But you know. fuck all. Yep

[Bereft]

B. If you hadn't noticed I have Creature as solid town, falcon as lean town, and Porscha as town, and Mac/SPF may have some deviations here but none of us are put bulldozing these players.
C. Actually I simply think town got off to a horrible start D1. I say this from the simple fact of the Baudib's wagon existence. I know you don't agree that Baudib was obvious town but as far as I'm concerned there was at minimum some number of town pursuing things that I would label inadvisable and there were definitely tensions that grew from the fact that Alison/Mac/Lucy/Baudib were telling people to "shut up and stop doing stupid things because we said so", and so these people never got around the fact that they think Mac's controlling the game in an evil direction simply from the fact he told them to stop wagoning their pet scumreads. That's a very nice story and all, but my point is that I don't actually current think you need that much control over the game to get a successful Moon use to cause an Alison chop. The recipe was right there, in D1, no one trusted Alison, and you want to know who pushed Alison and added to the boiling pot? Spoiler alert, its some of the people I'm suspecting.

The obvious counterargument is "but what about Mac's D2, he told everyone to vote for Alison for however long" to which I will simply state that I understand the concern but actually here's how to read Mac, so we segue into:

A. The first point about reading Mac, is that you can get a good idea just entirely based on Mac's stated reads, not their accuracy, but his stated explanations and read development. Mac's great at spinning BS and bussing, but the point is that he's not great at faking reasonable reads or for that matter reevaluating. I'm not going to bother explaining why I think Mac's D1 reads are reasonable since you obviously don't think they are and I will only come off as even more a snob. However, Mac's ... breakdown D2 is as far as I'm concerned a v!Mac. Do you think w!Mac bothers faking vulnerability? Not well, not in any way thats grounded. He stated clearly why he suddenly pivoted onto Alison, and thats because of a breakdown in confidence of worldview. Why was there a breadown in confidence of worldview? Because certain of his scumreads were showing town entitlement, these were Falcon and (Dr.Wilgy? I cant remember and I might be biased) and he had never expressed townreading Alison that confidently. Then he switches to actually I change my mind, I haven't a clue, and actually don't kill Alison. This is a massive amount of flexibility and whether you like it or not, its not easy to pull of convincingly as wolf, nor does it give him any benefit of wolf when everyone will be going "bro wtf was that". I am not going to talk about Mac's D3 and attempt to justify that its genuine frustration on Mac's part, but that is what I think.

In any case, it is much easier for me to say "oh I townread Mac", because I can follow basically all of his stated thought processes while others have not.

X. I strongly believe in my own ability to read Mac to speculate on the w/w nature of the interactions you cited. Besides the fact that I think most preflip claimed w/w interactions are in general weak, I do think SPF could have come to a similar assessment as I have, and this is just based on SPF being a stronger player and they've already echoed my general thrust that the reason Mac is town is that "actually Mac is polarized". And lastly, the point where Mac doubles around and asks SPF "so why don't you scumread me" is emblematic of Mac's townplay in that he will ask pointed questions out of the blue to the people he townreads for paranoia reasons. Theoretically SPF can be a wolf in all of this but these are not interactions w/w with Mac. Mac as a wolf would've likely theatred more with SPF as a partner, this interaction is pretty tame.




Why did I do this to myself.

[Bereft]

@Seanzie

[Seanzie]

[VOTE: Sig] aubergine

[Seanzie]

If this is a miss, I'm going ham on SPF/Mac/Bereft. If it is a hit, I'm accusing them of bussing.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Are you guys fucking kidding me? You seriously killed Alison. I am so fucking pissed right now. I am done for now. Ill come back later If I can give a shit

Like why would this come as a surprise? The moon got played and there were people who suspected Alison?

Moreover, Rondo did fuck all to defend Alison.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

This is a bit reactionary, but I don’t like Lucy’s insistence here it’s game over or “throwing” if Alison is voted. No one person is game ending.

have you not read the game? What is going on here?

Lucy is either Town or IC and I am either IC or Town. We have both CCed each other as Oracle and have not resulted in a dome. Lucy and I are town core. She is more productive because I love chaos so I am happy to give her the lead on the lynch while I do my own thing. Stop doubting her. Both sides of the Oracle want Alison not going over today. (But I would like more Alison posts closer to EOD so I can soul read her)

@sig
@Jackofhearts2005
@Roxy
@fingersplints
@falcon45ca

Alison flips town > who are the wolves on your wagon? Who are the town?

Alison flips wolf > who bussed? who is pure?

@Porscha @Dennis @Creature onto roxy thanks

Why? I thought you preferred fingersplints

in an ideal world, where finger could possibly be unlynchable, i am trying to get a second wagon that isn't alison

host clarified, no lynch no second lynch, just bupkis. Alison will not be lynched

yep fuck all.

I feel like I’m being gaslit. None of this helps Alison not get yeeted?

[DrWilgy]

@Seanzie why is your game so much different than secret player list?

[Bereft]

Rondo, the reason you're towny is exactly for your first callout. "You can't just effortlessly townread me! Scummy" Town exhibit a selfobsession and this tracks with at least my observations of your reactions at a least a few other points in your iso, and no I'm not going to find them and point them out to you because I just made a wallpost.

I've been repping a Wilgy scumread since midD1 so all of that concern about my treatment of Wilgy is based on wrong facts, and if you think I as scum would have such a sloppy progression on Roxy that I know someone's probably going to point out, [complete the rest].

But sure.

This also segues to the thought I had earlier, that I actually like the players who bother to express suspicion on me (Porscha/Seanzie/Rondo), I do feel that wolves have been hesitant to do touch me and have literally just been TMI'ing town (yes this ties in to my earlier point about why Rondo is town)

I don't know why I'm spilling so much ink but I guess I decided I felt like talking alot..

[Seanzie]

@Seanzie why is your game so much different than secret player list?

You'll have to elaborate on what exactly is different. I don't feel different, except for the obvious differences.

[RondoDimBuckle]

Rondo, the reason you're towny is exactly for your first callout. "You can't just effortlessly townread me! Scummy" Town exhibit a selfobsession and this tracks with at least my observations of your reactions at a least a few other points in your iso, and no I'm not going to find them and point them out to you because I just made a wallpost.

I've been repping a Wilgy scumread since midD1 so all of that concern about my treatment of Wilgy is based on wrong facts, and if you think I as scum would have such a sloppy progression on Roxy that I know someone's probably going to point out, [complete the rest].

But sure.

This also segues to the thought I had earlier, that I actually like the players who bother to express suspicion on me (Porscha/Seanzie/Rondo), I do feel that wolves have been hesitant to do touch me and have literally just been TMI'ing town (yes this ties in to my earlier point about why Rondo is town)

I don't know why I'm spilling so much ink but I guess I decided I felt like talking alot..

ok you can be town for now

[DrWilgy]

@Seanzie why is your game so much different than secret player list?

You'll have to elaborate on what exactly is different. I don't feel different, except for the obvious differences.

You feel more cautious in your takes.

You were very fire from the hip in secret player list, but in this game you've expressed fear on your read of me and your processes for other players seem to take more time. They are lengthier, thus at least to me, tells of a more cautionary approach to either reading or posting.

[robyn]

what are worlds where bereft/wigly/seanzie/rondo are town

[DrWilgy]

what are worlds where bereft/wigly/seanzie/rondo are town

I'm like 90% sure not everyone calling me Wolf can be wolf, I look forward to them feeling silly when I flip.

[Bereft]

Lucy express a proper read on Bereft challenge.

[RondoDimBuckle]

what are worlds where bereft/wigly/seanzie/rondo are town

There are two IC people in this game and you and I are both of them

[Seanzie]

@Seanzie why is your game so much different than secret player list?

You'll have to elaborate on what exactly is different. I don't feel different, except for the obvious differences.

You feel more cautious in your takes.

You were very fire from the hip in secret player list, but in this game you've expressed fear on your read of me and your processes for other players seem to take more time. They are lengthier, thus at least to me, tells of a more cautionary approach to either reading or posting.

I do not fear reading you, I just know I don't know how to.

I do not feel the other things you're saying.

[RondoDimBuckle]

as for Seanzie / wilgy, I keep flip flopping, he is doing good work but I havent seen his vote analysis atm. I think he was on Alison so I do not like him atm

[RondoDimBuckle]

Wilgy has yet to do something I know to be completely town wilgy so is wolf until then due to lack of town space

[RondoDimBuckle]

what are worlds where bereft/wigly/seanzie/rondo are town

I'm like 90% sure not everyone calling me Wolf can be wolf, I look forward to them feeling silly when I flip.

to be clear. I think there are worlds where you could be town but at the moment Mac is slightly more town than you and has called you sus (afaik, I need to re-read again but I am at work atm)

[Sabiplz]

OK I managed to a couple of people's iso that yall told to me read (people I know. How to read)

Mac - I feel like he's in his town meta? Idk he seems towny. His annoyance and melt down feels genuine.

Falcon - since he's posting and engaged with the game he's town. Low bar I know.

Wilgz - idk he seems weird but idk he has a long streak of wolf Rands so idk of the weirdness is based off that.

Jack: seams awkward and spazzy. I just don't get him?

Creature - idk I don't see the town creature that I know him for. There's no doom and gloom posting. There's no crankiness.

Still need to read spf and Seanzie and Porscha.

Thank you for giving me space and time.

[RondoDimBuckle]

OK I managed to a couple of people's iso that yall told to me read (people I know. How to read)

Mac - I feel like he's in his town meta? Idk he seems towny. His annoyance and melt down feels genuine.

Falcon - since he's posting and engaged with the game he's town. Low bar I know.

Wilgz - idk he seems weird but idk he has a long streak of wolf Rands so idk of the weirdness is based off that.

Jack: seams awkward and spazzy. I just don't get him?

Creature - idk I don't see the town creature that I know him for. There's no doom and gloom posting. There's no crankiness.

Still need to read spf and Seanzie and Porscha.

Thank you for giving me space and time.

What page are you up to?

[Sabiplz]

OK I managed to a couple of people's iso that yall told to me read (people I know. How to read)

Mac - I feel like he's in his town meta? Idk he seems towny. His annoyance and melt down feels genuine.

Falcon - since he's posting and engaged with the game he's town. Low bar I know.

Wilgz - idk he seems weird but idk he has a long streak of wolf Rands so idk of the weirdness is based off that.

Jack: seams awkward and spazzy. I just don't get him?

Creature - idk I don't see the town creature that I know him for. There's no doom and gloom posting. There's no crankiness.

Still need to read spf and Seanzie and Porscha.

Thank you for giving me space and time.

What page are you up to?

I'm doing isos

I can't read this whole game. Don't have time or energy.

[falcon45ca]

Where's Wilgy? I feel like he's dipped this RD, and that's somewhat troubling


@DrWilgy Are you now, or have you ever been, a Doctor? Where ya's head at? I don't see you as my town core like I used to

No, I've just been committing fraud for the past few years of my life.

What dropped me out of town core? I needed to take a break from the game and such.

So back to my original postulation that there was a wolf in the early Kate wagon. Likely just [VOTE: creature] aubergine at this point. So I'll vote there before I try to catch up now. Will likely skim and ISO for a few hours this evening.

Not being around.


Refresh me in your Kate wagon theory?

[Porscha]

Ok so @Seanzie I guess we would like you to clarify. Do you have mechanical information that indicate Mac and Jack are wolves?

no bro, don't you know that if I did I couldn't say it but hey it isn't the case anyway, so sit down and just drown in the fact that "Mac and Jack ate a shortstack of flapjacks in wolf chat" is a fact that I deduced by being a sleuth, reading the thread, using my head. No cards jarred these facts that I spread.

Are you able to elaborate on what lead you to that conclusion then pls

This post:

If alison is mafia i feel like 2 or maybe 3 of the people vehemently pushing her are also mafia

Looking at jack and sig

A possible explanation for the behavior "alison maf, i aint moving, nu-uh, nothing else exists i put my hands on my ears lalalalala" is an orchestrated bus, maybe alison has exams or something she always has exams :P

(I still have an unconfident townread on her, just exploring an option)

Aww darn you got me but I guess I’ll double down and hope for the best. Maybe reverse psychology will keep you from yeeting Alison, who is wolves with me.

[VOTE: Alison] aubergine

Is a wolf who is saying "Haha, you're pairing me with a townie, you think you've caught me but you're right for the wrong reasons and it will fall apart when Alison flips". Jack HAS been got, just not for the reasons Tutuu is putting out.

I don't remember the specifics behind Mac, but I'm sure they were breathtakingly convincing, and could stand alone without considering that Mac is eating villagers for breakfast left and right.

So you had mac individually sr'd and also decided jack is wolf based on a very sarcastic post that only works with alison t flip? And then framed them as a pair together?

Is there another reason for you thinking jack is wolf? I dont think jack going in hardcore on a town alison if jack is wolf makes a lot of sense for him to do

Like, it obviously didnt do anything beneficial for him since hes still being highly sussed

And I dont get how youd consider mac a wolf with what you presented. Just cuz no pelt? Nothing about his posting or arguments?
I would be surprised if the mac I have seen this game were to flip wolf, especially from the posts I have seen from him today

I don't feel like you actually read my response in good faith. Please try again.

uh....... okay, like, I'm able to see what you're saying you see with the jack post. I was asking if there was anything else to your jack read besides that? if not that's fine I just wanted to ensure i'm on the same page as you here

and again, like, the mac point was really vague so I'm trying to grasp at how you're reaching that conclusion. it wasn't in bad faith, i'm trying to provide possible reasons since I'm not seeing much on its own

[Porscha]

can everyone respond to this post with their top 3 most confident townreads?

ty

mac falcon sean (neon would be here but I have lost her)

Why do you townread me?

I extrapolated later

[Seanzie]

@Seanzie why is your game so much different than secret player list?

You'll have to elaborate on what exactly is different. I don't feel different, except for the obvious differences.

You feel more cautious in your takes.

You were very fire from the hip in secret player list, but in this game you've expressed fear on your read of me and your processes for other players seem to take more time. They are lengthier, thus at least to me, tells of a more cautionary approach to either reading or posting.

I do not fear reading you, I just know I don't know how to.

I do not feel the other things you're saying.

Hmm.....................

@DrWilgy is that it?

[Seanzie]

also spf I think I can say with some confidence that sean is town here. i've played with evil sean once and I was able to see through it
sean this game has been able to very like... be direct in his 1 on 1s with people. when he wolfed I saw a lot more deflection. I don't think you should be open to other thoughts on it today at the very very least

Can you give me an example of where I've been "direct in his 1 on 1s"?

[RondoDimBuckle]

If alison is mafia i feel like 2 or maybe 3 of the people vehemently pushing her are also mafia

Looking at jack and sig

A possible explanation for the behavior "alison maf, i aint moving, nu-uh, nothing else exists i put my hands on my ears lalalalala" is an orchestrated bus, maybe alison has exams or something she always has exams :P

(I still have an unconfident townread on her, just exploring an option)

Do you think that if that is the team, Alison is the one they would be bussing? I find it unlikely but I’m not really in touch with the meta of the players involved.

I cant tell you that far/deep, this was just my solution when i thought to solve the problem "whats the reason behind the pressure on alison that i cant understand/justify (coming from jack and sig maybe seanzie, rondo, forgot who else)"

From roxy, dennis, finger, neon - i understand and justify it, its the emotional turbulation having an impact, so i dont think its w/w there

It's not a bus, they are just outing to kill me. It's why none of my voters can give a coherent reason why I am mafia and it's why I feel great about the game because the mafia team has overextended way too much and it's hard to imagine the game ending well for them unless you guys totally throw after my flip (in which case it's on you).

If Alison is right, here, she has to literally only be talking about Sig, which is ???

Cause I'm town and Neon flipped town. Why was Neon killed? I don't get it. Wasn't Neon a yeetable option who had been wrong?

The Tower card was played, so all night action targets were randomized, including NK.

Oh, right. I knew that. I just didn't think that it would have been applied to the NK.

While I'm using a post, I just finished my EOD1 and D2 ketchup and I'm frustrated that most of my nulls (Sabi/Kate, Rondo, Bereft, Portia, Seanzieish [townlean for reasons I forget] and Roxyish [scumread for reasons that don't have anything to do with Roxy's posts]) just flat didn't post in that time period.

You know why I didnt post in day 2? Because day started and I was supposed to be in a dnd game but instead I was on a call to solve a problem at work and then once I was off that call I went to play that dnd game. Funnily enough, I did things with my saturday

[Porscha]

1. Most of the players are saying dont sheep lucy
leads to
2. Some of these players have to be mafia
leads to
3. Lucy wants to kill Wilgy
leads to
4. Mafia is imo more likely to use their TMI on wilgy town to discredit lucy and be on the right side of his story, than to blatantly defend a teammate like that. They look bad if wilgy flips mafia
leads to
5. Yet another reason to townread wilgy

to be clear: you think wilgy has to be town because nobody wants to blindly sheep lucy

couldn't this apply to literally anyone lucy wants to vote?

[Porscha]

also spf I think I can say with some confidence that sean is town here. i've played with evil sean once and I was able to see through it
sean this game has been able to very like... be direct in his 1 on 1s with people. when he wolfed I saw a lot more deflection. I don't think you should be open to other thoughts on it today at the very very least

Can you give me an example of where I've been "direct in his 1 on 1s"?

literally any post you have with mac