[END] Literal WWerecreatures Invade Syndicate Zoo: An SDN Crossover Game

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

I also think Dennis can confirm this

[santygrass]

Hmmmm

[VOTE: Miranda] aubergine

Nevermind this feels better

Why?

Because they've been less talked about. And I don't know how Dennis plays, and I know miranda a little more and they havent hit a single town note for me yet, so more worrysome

The thing with miranda is I feel like she was a lot more confident as a wolf, like into LAMIST territory, which is what pinged me in the FE game when she was wolfing. And I haven't seen that here. It's not really town points, but that plus Creature casually piling on her makes her not really a priority for me. I'd rather give her space and see what she does.

I kinda think their vibe/proccess into putting their vote int marmot fits what you are saying here about their wolf game though?

Like, the confident part I recall more from their town game than their scum games fwiw. Like, how in... Pawwsta tunneled Wondalfy with such conviction. I think when Miranda shines with conviction like that she towntells.

[MacDougall]

Scotty doesn't need my vote is quite clearly "Creature is safe so I don't need to vote Scotty" made manifest into words imo.

I'm not that dumb.

I was giving Creature a break because my other experience with him was as low-posting town who got suspected for it, and I was fine with the Scotty wagon. If I were a partner I could have stayed on Creature for cred since it didn't look like he was going over.

When you cast the vote the wagons were 8 to 6 Scotty over Creature and Scotty was offwagon and in the thread.

So no, if you were a partner and wanted Creature to live you couldn't have.

Your vote putting 3 between them actually prevented Scotty from self preserving.

[MacDougall]

Why did you move your vote off Creature and onto someone who was never getting wagoned anyway? All you said was "not feeling Creature"? That seems like a bad reason to unvote a wolf to vote a vanity wagon Nate.

[Mayo the Mayo]

I want to see what other pushes develop and give people a chance to respond to the Lawwpy stuff.

There is more, but I'll hold here and go to bed.

[MacDougall]

[VOTE: Lawpy] aubergine I'm also gonna let the game breathe for a while.

[MacDougall]

Ohhhhh.

I totally am dying at EOD like Zenge did yo.

I got a message in the night that was basically you hear something but you don't move because you feel warm and safe all of a sudden.

I'm dying yo. That's also a Vampire flavour imo. I reckon 3p are who hit me and they're Vamps, and that's how Zenge also died.

[Lawpy]

I think Falcon said a provocative thing about you and you were provoked. I think he made a mountain out of a molehill first, and you responded by making your out mountain out of your own molehill. Falcon's initial gripe, whether or not we believe it, was that you were not proactive enough in addressing your concerns about the early Miranda votes. Was it fair as an accusation at face value? Not really. But was it an acceptable play for early Day 1 of a crossover mafia game on Mafiathesyndicate.com? Absolutely.

You responded critically and defensively, because it was a bit of a bogus accusation. That is fair. But, in your response, I felt you took some liberties with his words, or at least presented a rather one-sided view of his position (It is not hard to see how falcon could interpret your initial concern as being simply the speed with which the votes occurred). This is reminiscent of how you have responded to me today. But, again, that is fine, because it is Day 1 of a mafia game, and we need to twist some words to get people talking.

Was I swayed by any of the arguments either of you made against one another? No. I was not. If I am to give a read, it's that both of you are town. Falcon, for playing the role of provocateur. You, because your defensive reaction turned into what looks to be a very firmly-held belief that you are onto something. But neither of those are strong reads, which is why I will again stress that I'm more interested in seeing how you respond to other things.

I do not believe there is anything meaningful to be gained by continuing this dialogue.

Get out of here with your calm and reasoning.

Also, intentionally being peacemaker and trying to stop a distracting argument feels town to me.

This isn’t “calm and reason”.

They refused to actually answer the question I was asking. They said a lot of words without saying anything of meaning.

Reading it as an outsider to the argument, I think they are frustrated that it's been going on for a week and a half without either you or falcon really offering anything new.

Sloonei's post reads like trying to move the thread along. I would guess that's why they aren't engaging with your questions.

If falcon were to flip wolf, it wouldn't be a great look for Sloonei, but they wouldn't be the only person viewing the argument as V/V.

The issue I take with Sloonei, isn’t that they’re reading it as v/v.

It’s the way in which the initial response to me pushing Falcon was an attempt to shut down any conversation by saying “that’s just how Falcon is” without ever being willing to highlight specific parts of the interaction they agreed with and disagreed with, despite repeated requests to do so. Never once.

I think that's come through clearly in your posts, but it's clear they don't want to engage. I still think they seem like a villager who is tired of the same argument.

If your falcon tunnel is right, then it's more likely that I'm wrong about how I interpreted that post.

Though I'm not town reading falcon.

Sloonei has sounded town in how they have approached this to me, even if I think he could have dodged some frustration by answering questions earlier.

This right here shows you’re backing Slooneis’s point but then adding a “i’m not town reading falcons” post to give yourself an out

[NateTheLesser]

Scotty doesn't need my vote is quite clearly "Creature is safe so I don't need to vote Scotty" made manifest into words imo.

I'm not that dumb.

I was giving Creature a break because my other experience with him was as low-posting town who got suspected for it, and I was fine with the Scotty wagon. If I were a partner I could have stayed on Creature for cred since it didn't look like he was going over.

When you cast the vote the wagons were 8 to 6 Scotty over Creature and Scotty was offwagon and in the thread.

So no, if you were a partner and wanted Creature to live you couldn't have.

Your vote putting 3 between them actually prevented Scotty from self preserving.

Yes, and when I voted Creature it put him in a 7/7 tie with Scotty, who as you point out was offwagon and could have put Creature in the lead.

[NateTheLesser]

I'll also point out this VC from earlier in D1:

miranda - 4 (Sporty, Wilgy/tutuu, santy, Scotty)
Dennis - 2 (AM, Neon)
Nate - 2 (falcon, Creature)
Zenge - 1 (Nate)
AM - 1 (Seanzie)
falcon - 1 (Zenge)
Sporty - 1 (pyxxy)
Marmot - 1 (Sloonei)

[Sloonei]

@MacDougall Which is more likely?

A) Wolf Sloonei went out of his way to hard-defend two teammates on Day 1, one of which was superslanky Creature

OR

B) Town Slooonei misread Scotty

[MacDougall]

@MacDougall Which is more likely?

A) Wolf Sloonei went out of his way to hard-defend two teammates on Day 1, one of which was superslanky Creature

OR

B) Town Slooonei misread Scotty

Mmm. B.

Do a Neon dive pretty please.

[Sloonei]

@MacDougall Which is more likely?

A) Wolf Sloonei went out of his way to hard-defend two teammates on Day 1, one of which was superslanky Creature

OR

B) Town Slooonei misread Scotty

Mmm. B.

Do a Neon dive pretty please.

Tomorrow evening. It’s 2 AM.

[Lawpy]

@MacDougall Which is more likely?

A) Wolf Sloonei went out of his way to hard-defend two teammates on Day 1, one of which was superslanky Creature

OR

B) Town Slooonei misread Scotty

Mmm. B.

Do a Neon dive pretty please.

Tomorrow evening. It’s 2 AM.

Rest pls

[mightyrunner7]

mightyrunner7 was insanified by Creature on night 1. It's quite wifom, but I will give it a very minor point in their favour simply because the wifom leads you to "just put it on a town because people will read it as wifom anyway so there's not much value in putting it on a wolf" is a true enough statement. Particularly when MR7 is already kinda likely to be town.

First of all, thank you for coining MR7, it's fantastic shorthand for my name.

I'm going to have much more to say tomorrow as things further develop (and I get some sleep), but I just wanted to confirm what happened over the weekend

You can all see the details of my post restriction in creature's role reveal. As someone who prefers making long-form posts, being restricted to 1 sentence thesis titles was very painful. After I made my initial point and read for the day, I didn't see many opportunities to contribute to the discussion, particularly after PSV stated she couldn't make heads or tales of my messages. There were a few scenerios where I would have inserted myself, but I was fine with all three wagon options (Falcon, creature, and Marmot). Frankly, the only time I sweated was when the Dennis wagon started with 1 hour to go, but it never got enough traction to warrant discussion.

[mightyrunner7]

The odds of him randing scum three times in a row:
1.56%
Not impossible. But it would be MIGHTY unlikely.

I agree this isn't how probability works and nobody should use this data as AI

However, props to a good pun

[mightyrunner7]

PSV as the odd night vigilante killed either sporty, AM, or pyxxy. We know that PSV never shoots AM. I guess she shot sporty in order to solve one of the counter wagons, because I see no reason to shoot pyxxy in PSV's D1 posts

[tutuu]

hi

without thinking about it too hard

and i still havent read most of the game

my knee jerk reaction, just from reading today's posts

is to think that i should be looking at these slots

lawpy, genny, nate, santy, SAR

[tutuu]

i think marmot being 3p is more likely than mafia having a janitor

if marmot is town janitored by mafia, that means marmot was also shot by mafia. that can't be

perhaps a 3p role shot marmot, but more likely they're a 3p themselves?

probably multiple 3p in this vampire faction as mac said (their ability)?

[tutuu]

[VOTE: lawpy] aubergine

i dont have a particular explanation why lawpy is wolf, i townread him a lot yesterday, but seeing mac and mayo and sloonei be voting there makes me sheep

[tutuu]

i think marmot being 3p is more likely than mafia having a janitor

if marmot is town janitored by mafia, that means marmot was also shot by mafia. that can't be

perhaps a 3p role shot marmot, but more likely they're a 3p themselves?

probably multiple 3p in this vampire faction as mac said (their ability)?

oh yes

werewolf

werecreature

flavor of this game is werecreatures

what are werewolves biggest enemies?

vampires

so 3p being vampires makes sense

thankfully jay said there's no alignment conversion

[tutuu]

i think most, if not all, the remaining evil roles are SDNers only

also checks out with the PSV night kill

i dont think any syndicator kills PSV and keeps mac and sloonei alive on d3

[MacDougall]

Votecount as of end of day 1

Scotty 8 - (Marmot, dyachei/lawpy, mightyrunner7, SportPonies, Neon, Creature, Sloonei, potentialsheltervet)
Creature 5 - (Mayo the Mayo, Kate, S~V~S, falcon45ca, DrWilgy)
Dennis 3 - (Animal Midwife, Scotty, NateTheLesser)
SportPonies 3 - (Seanzie, miranda920, pyxxy)
Falcon45ca 2 - (Zenge, santygrass)
pyxxy 1 - (genny)
Marmot 1 - (Dennis)

Did not vote 1 - (SARdoghandler)

Notes:

The mafia shooting Animal Midwife on night 1 after Scotty goes over, quite blatantly spews the Dennis wagon. Almost too blatantly. I am very confident there is a strong difference check between Dennis and NateTheLesser at this time.

I personally view Creature as a probable hit. He is not his towny self and has no enthusiasm. He keeps talking about his lack of energy/engagement which I have seen him do as mafia because he genuinely does not enjoy wolfing. I think Creature does need to be resolved to help town make heads or tails of the gamestate. I also don't trust Marmot at all and observed Marmot defend Creature during day 1 in a really questionable way. His reasons for ending up voting Scotty felt like he was trying to reach for justifications to be voting town, if Creature was town he wouldn't need to make said justifications.

Obviously if Creature and Dennis are both mafia, the Scotty wagon is very likely to contain multiple mafia. I'd be particularly interested in those who are more familiar with Scotty coming under fire, especially because after reading his ISO he felt like very basic Scotty, who is an A++ town player especially mid to late game. I would expect the likes of Marmot, Neon and Sloonei to be disinclined from killing Scotty day 1 over Creature when comparing their two isos.

@Sloonei, @Neon, @Marmot why did you end up voting out Scotty over Creature?

There is still likely to be one between Dennis and Nate. Interestingly we now have confirmation that Creature had at least one wolf bussing. Which is a very strange thing for Falcon to be doing. Perhaps Falcon did this because he was also being tunneled by Zenge and figured he wasn't going to go deep and figured that forcing a dicho out of him and Creature was sound. That's reasonable enough to assume, to suggest that the extent of the bussing may have ended there.

mightyrunner7 was insanified by Creature on night 1. It's quite wifom, but I will give it a very minor point in their favour simply because the wifom leads you to "just put it on a town because people will read it as wifom anyway so there's not much value in putting it on a wolf" is a true enough statement. Particularly when MR7 is already kinda likely to be town.

Given I think Seanzie is pretty much never with Falcon, I think that Miranda is very likely a hit for their Ponies vote.

It is important to keep coming back to this VC throughout the game because if the Scotty wagon ends up not having more than two wolves on it, the wagonomics outside there becomes more significant. Things like my statement above about Miranda take on less significance of the mafia actually really did vote Scotty in a large volume to save Creature as it makes pure wagons on town slightly more likely.

Wow we have resolved every d1 wagon except Dennis. The only other significant wagon during the day was Miranda.

Honestly I think we should just kill Dennis and Miranda asap and completely solve d1 and go from there.

[tutuu]

oh i just remembered there are more than 2 factions rip. that just flips the game on its head. why cant we play a normal standard big game with only town and mafia

Wait what

I hate it here now

could santy be 3p vampire coz of this

[MacDougall]

I have

Miranda as diff to Seanzie AND Santy making Miranda a mathematically likely wolf

Dennis as diff to Nate and Marmot so also mathematically likely.

Neon/Sloonei to likely have at least 1 wolf due to planting on Scotty all throughout EOD1.

Nate/Lawpy/Marmot to likely have at least 1 wolf die to being critical late voters responsible for Scotty going over and Creature living.

I am also experiencing The Fear™ over Santy/SVS and Tutuu. Santy moreso of the normal "something off" variety and the other two are striking me as non Werecreature faction members.

[tutuu]

i feel pretty strongly about dennis being town

unless he got the guts and learned to mimic his town meta (which gets him mischopped every game) - and decides to do it as wolf, in a game half full of strangers that don't know his scummy town meta (and how often it gets him mischopped) -

the more simple logic is that he's just town

[tutuu]

i think i know why sean dipped from the game and it makes him town

[tutuu]

i think i know why sean dipped from the game and it makes him town

he's not the bestest of friends with mac

but its also not impossible he was just busy. we'll see

[tutuu]

lawpy, genny, nate, santy, SAR

any reason at all to townread these slots?

only thing i come up with is nate putting in a lot of effort and santy having good tone. my reason for townreading lawpy was tunneling sloonei in a *hold my hands over my ears lalalalala* way

[tutuu]

also

since jay is this kumbayah diplomat gandhi martin luther king jr

i bet he rigged the rand in the sense of

he wanted an equal amount of SDNers and Syndicators to be mafia

coz jay is all about the E Q U A L I T Y this game judging from evertything im seeing

not actually sure how confident i am in this. probably not the best design principle coz it outs a lot of alignments late-game if people figure it out

so maybe not, maybe there can be a few more people wolf from one community than the other

but thats just my soul read on jay

jay is 100% the type of guy to do that in a game he's co-designing

[MacDougall]

I feel like there's a post restriction here.

There's not a post restrictor, unless it's something an inventor cooked up.

This actually feels like a genuine slip. I believe he didn't know Creature had the role. But I also want to know why you dismissed the idea completely @NateTheLesser?

[MacDougall]

i think i know why sean dipped from the game and it makes him town

he's not the bestest of friends with mac

but its also not impossible he was just busy. we'll see

Doubt that's the reason. He directly interacted with me in a normal way after I subbed in. And I'd expect if it was for that reason he'd have subbed out entirely.

[tutuu]

i think i know why sean dipped from the game and it makes him town

he's not the bestest of friends with mac

but its also not impossible he was just busy. we'll see

Doubt that's the reason. He directly interacted with me in a normal way after I subbed in. And I'd expect if it was for that reason he'd have subbed out entirely.

oh alright i missed that post(s)

[MacDougall]

lawpy, genny, nate, santy, SAR

any reason at all to townread these slots?

only thing i come up with is nate putting in a lot of effort and santy having good tone. my reason for townreading lawpy was tunneling sloonei in a *hold my hands over my ears lalalalala* way

I came out of Creature's ISO with Santy spewed town. I have since lost faith in that read lol.

[MacDougall]

also

since jay is this kumbayah diplomat gandhi martin luther king jr

i bet he rigged the rand in the sense of

he wanted an equal amount of SDNers and Syndicators to be mafia

coz jay is all about the E Q U A L I T Y this game judging from evertything im seeing

not actually sure how confident i am in this. probably not the best design principle coz it outs a lot of alignments late-game if people figure it out

so maybe not, maybe there can be a few more people wolf from one community than the other

but thats just my soul read on jay

jay is 100% the type of guy to do that in a game he's co-designing

I don't think a Jay game would have anything remotely resembling stacking the teams honestly.

[tutuu]

im really sad that falcon was mafia. dude posted 134 times in 2 days. that's literally 10 games worth of town!falcon

as i said, he joins the club of syndicators who put 10 times more effort into looking town when they rand mafia than when they rand town. which is most of us

no wonder town keeps losing games when mafia tries 10 times harder than town, every single game

[tutuu]

lawpy, genny, nate, santy, SAR

any reason at all to townread these slots?

only thing i come up with is nate putting in a lot of effort and santy having good tone. my reason for townreading lawpy was tunneling sloonei in a *hold my hands over my ears lalalalala* way

I came out of Creature's ISO with Santy spewed town. I have since lost faith in that read lol.

bet bet

[tutuu]

I'll also point out this VC from earlier in D1:

miranda - 4 (Sporty, Wilgy/tutuu, santy, Scotty)
Dennis - 2 (AM, Neon)
Nate - 2 (falcon, Creature)
Zenge - 1 (Nate)
AM - 1 (Seanzie)
falcon - 1 (Zenge)
Sporty - 1 (pyxxy)
Marmot - 1 (Sloonei)

what is your conclusion from it?

[tutuu]

i didnt know scotty and creature were competing wagons d1

[tutuu]

i need to backread lol. fuck me.

[tutuu]

i didnt know scotty and creature were competing wagons d1

towny derpclear

[MacDougall]

I'll also point out this VC from earlier in D1:

miranda - 4 (Sporty, Wilgy/tutuu, santy, Scotty)
Dennis - 2 (AM, Neon)
Nate - 2 (falcon, Creature)
Zenge - 1 (Nate)
AM - 1 (Seanzie)
falcon - 1 (Zenge)
Sporty - 1 (pyxxy)
Marmot - 1 (Sloonei)

what is your conclusion from it?

Hes trying to highlight that two wolves voted him. Defending himself from me.

[tutuu]

i didnt know scotty and creature were competing wagons d1

towny derpclear

towny for being completely shameless

[tutuu]

I'll also point out this VC from earlier in D1:

miranda - 4 (Sporty, Wilgy/tutuu, santy, Scotty)
Dennis - 2 (AM, Neon)
Nate - 2 (falcon, Creature)
Zenge - 1 (Nate)
AM - 1 (Seanzie)
falcon - 1 (Zenge)
Sporty - 1 (pyxxy)
Marmot - 1 (Sloonei)

what is your conclusion from it?

Hes trying to highlight that two wolves voted him. Defending himself from me.

oh lol

i dont think 2 wolves voting u early day 1 is the most cromulent of arguments for why ur town

[MacDougall]

lawpy, genny, nate, santy, SAR

any reason at all to townread these slots?

only thing i come up with is nate putting in a lot of effort and santy having good tone. my reason for townreading lawpy was tunneling sloonei in a *hold my hands over my ears lalalalala* way

Lawpy has like ... sounded sincere and dya wasn't like wolfy sounding. Yay.

genny like ... null.

Nate is solvy and defensive in a towny way. Didn't seem to know Creature had a post restrictor role.

Creature tried to push Santy when he wasn't around d1.

SAR kinda buried Falcon d2 in a non partnery way. Just sheeping Zenge. Didn't feel teammy at all.

I think there's a pretty good chance this is a list you wrote in wolfchat and labelled "potential miselims". Why is Miranda and MR7 not in your list here?

[tutuu]

I'll also point out this VC from earlier in D1:

miranda - 4 (Sporty, Wilgy/tutuu, santy, Scotty)
Dennis - 2 (AM, Neon)
Nate - 2 (falcon, Creature)
Zenge - 1 (Nate)
AM - 1 (Seanzie)
falcon - 1 (Zenge)
Sporty - 1 (pyxxy)
Marmot - 1 (Sloonei)

what is your conclusion from it?

Hes trying to highlight that two wolves voted him. Defending himself from me.

oh lol

i dont think 2 wolves voting u early day 1 is the most cromulent of arguments for why ur town

in fact falcon and creature being those exact wolves makes nate scummier, if anything

falcon seems like he relied on bussing/distancing this game a lot

iirc creature relies on similar methods. scum!creature is the sacrificial-lamb-try-to-spew-partners-town type of wolf, not the power-wolf-type-of-wolf

especially if nate is bringing it up as a defense

[tutuu]

lawpy, genny, nate, santy, SAR

any reason at all to townread these slots?

only thing i come up with is nate putting in a lot of effort and santy having good tone. my reason for townreading lawpy was tunneling sloonei in a *hold my hands over my ears lalalalala* way

Lawpy has like ... sounded sincere and dya wasn't like wolfy sounding. Yay.

genny like ... null.

Nate is solvy and defensive in a towny way. Didn't seem to know Creature had a post restrictor role.

Creature tried to push Santy when he wasn't around d1.

SAR kinda buried Falcon d2 in a non partnery way. Just sheeping Zenge. Didn't feel teammy at all.

I think there's a pretty good chance this is a list you wrote in wolfchat and labelled "potential miselims". Why is Miranda and MR7 not in your list here?

alright thanks

i think if i ignore my reads and i try to think of the thread consensus reads, dennis, miranda, mr7 also fall in this "potential miselims" category as in - those people are facing scrutiny

miranda i have really dumb reasons to townread and i felt like holding onto them coz frankly its funny. but i can take it serious and not do that. one of the n1 town kills had her as town, i never checked if AM did. in my mind that was like - sheep dead SDN town on miranda town - i had this thought

mr7 i thought is town due to the post restriction given by creature. or falcon. or whoever it was, a wolf

[MacDougall]

I don't think Miranda and MR7 are wolves tbh I just brought them up to make sure you had thought about them genuinely. I think you did so that's good.

Miranda is being shielded by SAR as well which I think is a good look for both of them. I think Miranda is someone a wolf SAR would be pushing here as an easy miselim and probably wouldn't be shielding if w/w cuz the rest of the SDNers would be skeptical.

[MacDougall]

Tutuu can you use your anime girl powers to soulread Neon for me.

[tutuu]

I don't think Miranda and MR7 are wolves tbh I just brought them up to make sure you had thought about them genuinely. I think you did so that's good.

Miranda is being shielded by SAR as well which I think is a good look for both of them. I think Miranda is someone a wolf SAR would be pushing here as an easy miselim and probably wouldn't be shielding if w/w cuz the rest of the SDNers would be skeptical.

alright, not sure if i buy into townreading SAR for this, but i buy into townreading miranda more due to this