[TOWN WIN] Cool Bug Mafia

[JaggedJimmyJay]

[VOTE: Lime Coke] aubergine

WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, YOUNG MAN!?

Pointing this out as another point where I think town-Lime Coke would have tried to engage with me instead of superficially react but stay way clear of defending himself / trying to read me / trying to actually engage me.

(Lime Coke's post here with the big text is a joke response for people who weren't aware).

I concur.

Broadly.

[Wiml]

I've got something pretty important to say but I want to save it until close to EoD, somebody please remind me in case I forget.

[Michelle]

But you simply do not care about me.

You do not care about how I play

You do not care about what I do


You've already decided my alignment.

I don't know what gives you that impression.

You know, any wolf can add town reads to their reads because they have TMI and they know their reads are correct. Put a good progression on it and those townies will be impressed and not vote you.

You voiced suspicion on me and you don't explain it and have no intention to do so from what I understand.

Why do you think I have to accept self meta on you?

You claim I don't want to reconsider my read but you don't give me anything in fact to help me understand if I am wrong.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

A bit of an early legacy here, but I'd like to get my thoughts in now anyway. There may be time yet to talk about it before someone is night killed.

IF Lime Coke is eliminated and flips mafia, here's how I feel about associations:

Least likely Lime Coke teammates
Wiml
falcon45ca
DrWilgy

Most likely
Kate > Epignosis

Can't discount the possibility, rely on non-associative reads first
Abigail > Roxy > Quin > Michelle

If Lime Coke is town, this post can be treated as meaningless.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@☆Princess Abigail☆ and @Michelle, I am generally leaving each of you to carry out your conversation. However, I think I might be able to help mediate some miscommunication or holes in the conversation, so say the word if you'd like for me to do that. I may do it on my own if I feel it's necessary, but for now I will just leave that offer on the table.

[Michelle]

Jay how you consider the fact Abigail voted Brad only after I said they're w/w wagons in a world where Brad flips mafia?
Of course if he flips town the question is pointless.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Jay how you consider the fact Abigail voted Brad only after I said they're w/w wagons in a world where Brad flips mafia?
Of course if he flips town the question is pointless.

I don't think it means much either way. At this point in time they are counterwagons, and either version of Abigail is justified to vote for the counterwagon. I don't view the timing (with respect to your theory in particular) as especially important. I wouldn't clear her for it, and I wouldn't throw her in jail for it either.

[Michelle]

@☆Princess Abigail☆ and @Michelle, I am generally leaving each of you to carry out your conversation. However, I think I might be able to help mediate some miscommunication or holes in the conversation, so say the word if you'd like for me to do that. I may do it on my own if I feel it's necessary, but for now I will just leave that offer on the table.

I would like your honest opinion.

If you think she ever made a clear stance about why is she suspecting me please show me where because I didn't find it.

Lack of wolf reads from her is a problem for me, for a wolf is easy to make town reads but they have a problem in pushing villagers directly because most of villagers are sensitive at such pushes and react back.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

IF Lime Coke is eliminated and flips mafia, here's how I feel about associations:

~~~

Most likely
Kate > Epignosis

~~~

To expand on these impressions:

They're voting for Lime Coke's counterwagon (Abigail), and I don't believe either of them has displayed much interest in seeing the town case for Abigail. They've both also essentially ignored LC's existence so far. I think Kate is more egregious.

[Michelle]

Jay how you consider the fact Abigail voted Brad only after I said they're w/w wagons in a world where Brad flips mafia?
Of course if he flips town the question is pointless.

I don't think it means much either way. At this point in time they are counterwagons, and either version of Abigail is justified to vote for the counterwagon. I don't view the timing (with respect to your theory in particular) as especially important. I wouldn't clear her for it, and I wouldn't throw her in jail for it either.

Thanks for the answer, anyway if Brad comes back I think he will self press as well and the wagons will be tied again.

[Michelle]

IF Lime Coke is eliminated and flips mafia, here's how I feel about associations:

~~~

Most likely
Kate > Epignosis

~~~

To expand on these impressions:

They're voting for Lime Coke's counterwagon (Abigail), and I don't believe either of them has displayed much interest in seeing the town case for Abigail. They've both also essentially ignored LC's existence so far. I think Kate is more egregious.

Town case Abigail for me please

[Wiml]

Jay how you consider the fact Abigail voted Brad only after I said they're w/w wagons in a world where Brad flips mafia?
Of course if he flips town the question is pointless.

I don't think it means much either way. At this point in time they are counterwagons, and either version of Abigail is justified to vote for the counterwagon. I don't view the timing (with respect to your theory in particular) as especially important. I wouldn't clear her for it, and I wouldn't throw her in jail for it either.

Thanks for the answer, anyway if Brad comes back I think he will self press as well and the wagons will be tied again.

If things don't change much then I'll be making a pretty strong push for flipping Brad closer to EoD.

[Quin]

I am compelled to point out that Abigail's statement that Michelle has already "decided" she is bad is a statement she would typically make if she thought Michelle was a tunnelling town.

That's at odds with her scum read on Michelle, because mafia don't "decide" alignments like town do. They already know.

Didn't take long to throw my read out the window, but them's the breaks

[Quin]

To elaborate, if Abigail is town and believes Michelle is bad, her phrasing would normally be "you are framing me" or some such.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@☆Princess Abigail☆ and @Michelle, I am generally leaving each of you to carry out your conversation. However, I think I might be able to help mediate some miscommunication or holes in the conversation, so say the word if you'd like for me to do that. I may do it on my own if I feel it's necessary, but for now I will just leave that offer on the table.

I would like your honest opinion.

If you think she ever made a clear stance about why is she suspecting me please show me where because I didn't find it.

Lack of wolf reads from her is a problem for me, for a wolf is easy to make town reads but they have a problem in pushing villagers directly because most of villagers are sensitive at such pushes and react back.

Sure, I can do that.

I think both of you have had some failings in this interaction, and that's okay. It's difficult sometimes to carry on a truly healthy conversation in a game that demands we accuse each other of things.

I believe Abigail has stated why she suspects you, if not necessarily in a single clean box. If she is town, she believes that you have returned her suspicion of you back onto her (omgus) without giving a fair effort to understand her or interpret her in good faith. Effectively, she's accusing you of a fake omgus tunnel. I think that she has said this more or less, and it's there for you to find if you really want to find it (which would be where you fall short in this exchange). However, Abigail also falls short, because her assessment doesn't give you any credit. She isn't considering why a town Michelle might genuinely suspect her and trying to connect with you or your suspicion. There's a degree of hypocrisy in that. These things are human nature.

I think there are some issues with your suspicion of her. I don't really find you suspicious for them, but I will share what I mean. You have spoken a lot about what mafia can do in your discussion of Abigail. For example:

- Mafia can mimic their town game/meta.
- Mafia can give town reads, because they have TMI.

Things like this are technically true, but are they actually meaningful (or to what extent are they meaningful)? And do they leave Abigail in an impossible position?

What can't mafia do? Is that a question with an answer? "Can" is a big word. Mafia "can" do just about anything. If your requirement for Abigail is that she do things that mafia can't do, then I would assert you are expecting the impossible. I don't think you'd be doing so in bad faith. This kind of argumentation happens all the time in Mafia games, including from honest points of view. And Abigail needs to understand that too if she is town.

Now, all of this said, I want to ensure my dialogue here is understood as I intend it. None of this means "Abigail is town". It's a manuscript to describe how the communication can break down if she is town. She can still be mafia, and even a flawed case can still be right.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Town case Abigail for me please

The good things about Abigail, summarized:

~ Has assembled a strong group of town reads, including on less active players that I don't believe had to receive town reads.
~ Has identified at least three concrete mafia reads (you, Epignosis, and Kate) that I would call circumstantially believable if not necessarily compelling
~ Has done her best to continually respond to pressure, votes, and gripes with decorum (which aligns with her recent efforts to grow as a player), and is still here trying to make her mark.

I don't pretend these are lock-town quality points. But they are still points that should be considered.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Now I do need to disclose that my dyslexia is particularly awful this game so I'm struggling to read and retain a lot of Wimls posts because they are often wordy but what I do manage to understand feels pure as snow to me...

Anything I can do to make them easier for you to read?

Maybe like through formatting them differently and stuff but you don't need to do that.

I have learned to cope mainly through taking walls into word docs on my phone and like breaking them down to make them more digestible for my brain but that takes time.

Nobody needs to play differently to accommodate me

[Quin]

I'm scum reading everyone (Epi is a quinfoil) on the Abigail wagon, but I'm not sure she's town either.

Thread leaders, 1 of whom (3J) I townread and another I townlean (Wiml) are on LC, who I have no opinion on.

I am realistically not getting through 12~ pages of content before I go to bed in 3 hours, so I'm pretty desperate for someone to tell me where to look on that front.

A lynch between Abigail and LC could tell me a lot.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

My god my posts are boring. I'm going to put myself to sleep.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

...

I'm gonna get accused of faking this but

I'm fucking booooored

Remember your training, Abigail-san.

I'm tryingggg so harddd and it's not workinggggg

I'm trying to not be a bitch. I'm resisting swearing I'm mostly resisting AtE I think mostly

I'm trying to work with people

It's not workinggggg JJJ I donut know what to doooooo

If you're town, then you're on the right track when it comes to how you present yourself. You are doing better. Your next task is to monitor your own emotion when receiving pressure and/or you don't feel your reads are being respected (I think both lead to similar outcomes). Consider for a moment the connections that exist between your most vocal suspects and the names on your wagon. There could well be mafia among them, but there must mathematically be town too. If you can receive suspicion with calm and listen, even suspicion that you find to be unfair or silly, then you're more likely to get through to your accusers (or the viewing audience if not). You received my own initial suspicion in that way. Remember that town doesn't know your alignment and must try their best in the raw mountainous landscape to get it right. And they might fail in that effort. It's an honest mistake, just as it is when you get one wrong. Or I get one wrong. Or anyone.

Play with grace. Like I said, you're getting closer.

Thank you... this is so harddddd I'll try.

[Michelle]

Jay, I think the way she is self content for posting town reads and tries to present herself as solvy is not towny

It was implied when i said mafia prefer to post town reads to not argue with the townies they are pushing that she is mafia for doing that.

If you noticed she didn't say I am a wolf for suspecting her, she said I played wolfy or something.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm scum reading everyone (Epi is a quinfoil) on the Abigail wagon, but I'm not sure she's town either.

Thread leaders, 1 of whom (3J) I townread and another I townlean (Wiml) are on LC, who I have no opinion on.

I am realistically not getting through 12~ pages of content before I go to bed in 3 hours, so I'm pretty desperate for someone to tell me where to look on that front.

A lynch between Abigail and LC could tell me a lot.

Have you taken a dive into LC's posts yet? Worth doing if not, and there aren't that many to dig through.

[Quin]

I'm scum reading everyone (Epi is a quinfoil) on the Abigail wagon, but I'm not sure she's town either.

Thread leaders, 1 of whom (3J) I townread and another I townlean (Wiml) are on LC, who I have no opinion on.

I am realistically not getting through 12~ pages of content before I go to bed in 3 hours, so I'm pretty desperate for someone to tell me where to look on that front.

A lynch between Abigail and LC could tell me a lot.

Have you taken a dive into LC's posts yet? Worth doing if not, and there aren't that many to dig through.

That's post-Japanese food Quin, but I also want to know the cases brought up against him.

[Michelle]

My god my posts are boring. I'm going to put myself to sleep.

I never had that impression. Playing with you is always fun

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Jay, I think the way she is self content for posting town reads and tries to present herself as solvy is not towny

It was implied when i said mafia prefer to post town reads to not argue with the townies they are pushing that she is mafia for doing that.

If you noticed she didn't say I am a wolf for suspecting her, she said I played wolfy or something.

You could be right. As of right this moment I would still place Abigail in my POE pool merely as a product of thread momentum.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Thank you... this is so harddddd I'll try.

Here are two starting points for you to take that next step:

1.) Please describe for me, as you see it, why Michelle suspects you if Michelle is town. Just make that assumption for the moment for the sake of this exercise.

2.) Clarify for me how you read Michelle regardless of how you answer #1.

[Quin]

I couldn't find a good gif for it, but earlier I was reading along with some of the 3J/Wiml interactions and just envisioned two really old English blokes sipping tea and laughing like old friends. Felt like two townies found eachother. And were secretly a couple. Or something.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

But you simply do not care about me.

You do not care about how I play

You do not care about what I do


You've already decided my alignment.

I don't know what gives you that impression.

You know, any wolf can add town reads to their reads because they have TMI and they know their reads are correct. Put a good progression on it and those townies will be impressed and not vote you.

You voiced suspicion on me and you don't explain it and have no intention to do so from what I understand.

Why do you think I have to accept self meta on you?

You claim I don't want to reconsider my read but you don't give me anything in fact to help me understand if I am wrong.

You don't have to blindly accept self meta you've played with me multiple times you know how I play. You know what I do. You know my style my attitude my way of reading the game you know these things.

Maybe you don't know my town read accuracy is high... maybe you think it's all tmi I can prove that I'm just good at what I do if you are willing to work with me but what I can't do is express my read on you in a way that will ever satisfy you. I do not scum hunt...I do not push scum that is not my play.

I was backed into a corner early and everyone who was there to pull me out turned on me with the lightest nudge I played in a way I was deeply uncomfortable with and I pushed where I thought I was being poorly treated. I can not express my read deeper that's all it is I felt you were targeting me unfairly and deliberately unwilling to even try to understand my 1 in 4 read. Which is like just a good read generally.

More over I thought how you approached people turning on me was not only pockety but just like... shouldn't there be some semblance of wonder on your part if your town on why they were simply willing to abandon their reads without much force. Shouldn't you have concern? Shouldn't you feel worried they might be targeting you as a pocket? Instead you simply praised them for completely abandoning their reads entirely.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

That's post-Japanese food Quin, but I also want to know the cases brought up against him.

Here's my initial case for Lime Coke. He hasn't done much since then, so it might as well still be current.

Also refer to some recent comments from Wiml: Click #1, Click #2, Click #3.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I couldn't find a good gif for it, but earlier I was reading along with some of the 3J/Wiml interactions and just envisioned two really old English blokes sipping tea and laughing like old friends. Felt like two townies found eachother. And were secretly a couple. Or something.

I'm glad to hear that. When everyone is living the dream, all interactions in Mafia threads can be like that -- even between adversaries.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

My god my posts are boring. I'm going to put myself to sleep.

I never had that impression. Playing with you is always fun

You're one of the good ones, Michelle, both for talent and for kindness.

[Quin]

I couldn't find a good gif for it, but earlier I was reading along with some of the 3J/Wiml interactions and just envisioned two really old English blokes sipping tea and laughing like old friends. Felt like two townies found eachother. And were secretly a couple. Or something.

I'm glad to hear that. When everyone is living the dream, all interactions in Mafia threads can be like that -- even between adversaries.

I think such a thing could only exist in a game like Cool Bug Mafia.

Needs more Cool Bug Facts though.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@☆Princess Abigail☆ how do you feel about Lime Coke, your vote aside?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think everyone that hasn't already should share their new impressions of Quin.

[Wiml]

I couldn't find a good gif for it, but earlier I was reading along with some of the 3J/Wiml interactions and just envisioned two really old English blokes sipping tea and laughing like old friends. Felt like two townies found eachother. And were secretly a couple. Or something.

I'm English and was likely sipping tea during a lot of those interactions so this seems pretty accurate.

[Quin]

can somebody tell 3j that i disagree with his first point against lime coke because i townread 3j for the exact same reason

Still need to ISO, but from those links I am Just Not Seeing It.

[Wiml]

I think everyone that hasn't already should share their new impressions of Quin.

I'm liking what I'm seeing so far.

Going through ISOs because it's getting kind of rough to find teams that aren't Lime Coke + Kate/Abigail and even then I'm not all that sold on Abigail.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Jay how you consider the fact Abigail voted Brad only after I said they're w/w wagons in a world where Brad flips mafia?
Of course if he flips town the question is pointless.

I don't think it means much either way. At this point in time they are counterwagons, and either version of Abigail is justified to vote for the counterwagon. I don't view the timing (with respect to your theory in particular) as especially important. I wouldn't clear her for it, and I wouldn't throw her in jail for it either.

Thanks for the answer, anyway if Brad comes back I think he will self press as well and the wagons will be tied again.

I will never let a vote rand and yes that means I will commit die on myself too prevent a tie

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

To elaborate, if Abigail is town and believes Michelle is bad, her phrasing would normally be "you are framing me" or some such.

I quite often get accused of things similar to this because I always talk to every single player in a game as if they are town.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

can somebody tell 3j that i disagree with his first point against lime coke because i townread 3j for the exact same reason

Still need to ISO, but from those links I am Just Not Seeing It.

That's fine. That first point was probably my weakest.

Cases are often just not compelling regardless of their accuracy. It's hard to read some case someone wrote and say "oh yes, this is the good one, kill kill kill". So I get that. I'd be pleased to see your own takes when you're able. Be mindful that the day ends in 11 hours.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Jay how you consider the fact Abigail voted Brad only after I said they're w/w wagons in a world where Brad flips mafia?
Of course if he flips town the question is pointless.

I don't think it means much either way. At this point in time they are counterwagons, and either version of Abigail is justified to vote for the counterwagon. I don't view the timing (with respect to your theory in particular) as especially important. I wouldn't clear her for it, and I wouldn't throw her in jail for it either.

Thanks for the answer, anyway if Brad comes back I think he will self press as well and the wagons will be tied again.

I will never let a vote rand and yes that means I will commit die on myself too prevent a tie

Please do not do that. It is not pro-town.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

@☆Princess Abigail☆ and @Michelle, I am generally leaving each of you to carry out your conversation. However, I think I might be able to help mediate some miscommunication or holes in the conversation, so say the word if you'd like for me to do that. I may do it on my own if I feel it's necessary, but for now I will just leave that offer on the table.

I would like your honest opinion.

If you think she ever made a clear stance about why is she suspecting me please show me where because I didn't find it.

Lack of wolf reads from her is a problem for me, for a wolf is easy to make town reads but they have a problem in pushing villagers directly because most of villagers are sensitive at such pushes and react back.

Sure, I can do that.

I think both of you have had some failings in this interaction, and that's okay. It's difficult sometimes to carry on a truly healthy conversation in a game that demands we accuse each other of things.

I believe Abigail has stated why she suspects you, if not necessarily in a single clean box. If she is town, she believes that you have returned her suspicion of you back onto her (omgus) without giving a fair effort to understand her or interpret her in good faith. Effectively, she's accusing you of a fake omgus tunnel. I think that she has said this more or less, and it's there for you to find if you really want to find it (which would be where you fall short in this exchange). However, Abigail also falls short, because her assessment doesn't give you any credit. She isn't considering why a town Michelle might genuinely suspect her and trying to connect with you or your suspicion. There's a degree of hypocrisy in that. These things are human nature.

I think there are some issues with your suspicion of her. I don't really find you suspicious for them, but I will share what I mean. You have spoken a lot about what mafia can do in your discussion of Abigail. For example:

- Mafia can mimic their town game/meta.
- Mafia can give town reads, because they have TMI.

Things like this are technically true, but are they actually meaningful (or to what extent are they meaningful)? And do they leave Abigail in an impossible position?

What can't mafia do? Is that a question with an answer? "Can" is a big word. Mafia "can" do just about anything. If your requirement for Abigail is that she do things that mafia can't do, then I would assert you are expecting the impossible. I don't think you'd be doing so in bad faith. This kind of argumentation happens all the time in Mafia games, including from honest points of view. And Abigail needs to understand that too if she is town.

Now, all of this said, I want to ensure my dialogue here is understood as I intend it. None of this means "Abigail is town". It's a manuscript to describe how the communication can break down if she is town. She can still be mafia, and even a flawed case can still be right.

I truly appreciate you and all the effort you've put into helping me grow as a player and understand the mistakes I'm making

[Wiml]

can somebody tell 3j that i disagree with his first point against lime coke because i townread 3j for the exact same reason

Still need to ISO, but from those links I am Just Not Seeing It.

The guy basically stopped playing the game after he was pushed early on by Jay and I.

He came back to pop in later for one meme post but didn't answer any questions or just play the game.

His treatment of me is nagl due to our personal dynamics and my accuracy at reading him. The rest of his ISO varies from meh to wolfy and I don't get the impression that he cares about the reads he came up with.

Knowing him well and knowing his feelings on wolfing, I feel as confident as I reasonably can be that's he's a wolf that's just given up here.

[Quin]

To elaborate, if Abigail is town and believes Michelle is bad, her phrasing would normally be "you are framing me" or some such.

I quite often get accused of things similar to this because I always talk to every single player in a game as if they are town.

You've said this before in a place that was not Cool Bug Mafia, so I'll keep it in mind.

[Quin]

can somebody tell 3j that i disagree with his first point against lime coke because i townread 3j for the exact same reason

Still need to ISO, but from those links I am Just Not Seeing It.

That's fine. That first point was probably my weakest.

Cases are often just not compelling regardless of their accuracy. It's hard to read some case someone wrote and say "oh yes, this is the good one, kill kill kill". So I get that. I'd be pleased to see your own takes when you're able. Be mindful that the day ends in 11 hours.

All I can really say to it is "It was fine, for a very early D1 case". I just think there's better things to go on now.

I'll be voting before I go to bed in 2 or 3 hours, so I'll have something to say by then.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Jay, I think the way she is self content for posting town reads and tries to present herself as solvy is not towny

It was implied when i said mafia prefer to post town reads to not argue with the townies they are pushing that she is mafia for doing that.

If you noticed she didn't say I am a wolf for suspecting her, she said I played wolfy or something.

Again I can prove that this is how I play the game AS TOWN if you would like

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Jay, I think the way she is self content for posting town reads and tries to present herself as solvy is not towny

It was implied when i said mafia prefer to post town reads to not argue with the townies they are pushing that she is mafia for doing that.

If you noticed she didn't say I am a wolf for suspecting her, she said I played wolfy or something.

You could be right. As of right this moment I would still place Abigail in my POE pool merely as a product of thread momentum.

Fair and valid

Hey @JaggedJimmyJay can you take away my mod powers from hosting pls

[Wiml]

Jay how you consider the fact Abigail voted Brad only after I said they're w/w wagons in a world where Brad flips mafia?
Of course if he flips town the question is pointless.

I don't think it means much either way. At this point in time they are counterwagons, and either version of Abigail is justified to vote for the counterwagon. I don't view the timing (with respect to your theory in particular) as especially important. I wouldn't clear her for it, and I wouldn't throw her in jail for it either.

Thanks for the answer, anyway if Brad comes back I think he will self press as well and the wagons will be tied again.

I will never let a vote rand and yes that means I will commit die on myself too prevent a tie

I think, as established in the bad first dates game, this is definitely not pro-town to stick by. I'd greatly appreciate if you didn't do this.

It's also something that I would absolutely weaponise against you if I were wolfing against you tbh.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I truly appreciate you and all the effort you've put into helping me grow as a player and understand the mistakes I'm making

I'm happy to be of service. And remember that there is no shame in mistakes or in needing to grow.

I screw the pooch all the time in Mafia games. I have much room to grow.

This is just your journey to discover your true power. And it'll be fun to see it when you do.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Jay, I think the way she is self content for posting town reads and tries to present herself as solvy is not towny

It was implied when i said mafia prefer to post town reads to not argue with the townies they are pushing that she is mafia for doing that.

If you noticed she didn't say I am a wolf for suspecting her, she said I played wolfy or something.

You could be right. As of right this moment I would still place Abigail in my POE pool merely as a product of thread momentum.

Fair and valid

Hey @JaggedJimmyJay can you take away my mod powers from hosting pls

I will ask someone not playing to take care of it, but good eye.