Severance [Evening Four]

[leetic]

neither is it why I've town read Ran or Rondo for most of the game.

So are you just gonna rescind the claim?

Nah that would be boring

I think I've made it pretty obvious the claim was fake when I said I'm no longer confident my town core is pure don't you think

I think it was pretty obvious before that.

[Gira]

I spent most of d2 killing TSP. Check the tapes.

okay let's roll the replay:

Spoiler: show

I have. Feelings about Robyn but. They are probably not helpful. Regardless we move on. Robyn if you can see this thread I hope you are well.

So.

Rondo, Bereft, TSP, Dizzy all look abysmal to me here. I would like anyone who strongly townreads any of these players to tell me why.

I have. Feelings about Robyn but. They are probably not helpful. Regardless we move on. Robyn if you can see this thread I hope you are well.

So.

Rondo, Bereft, TSP, Dizzy all look abysmal to me here. I would like anyone who strongly townreads any of these players to tell me why.

I wrote updated thoughts about Rondo a few posts above, if you want my input

Noted. I disagree with robyn partnership being the main thrust of suspicion though, the main suspicion in my eyes is general wolfyness and lack of solving - that he hadn't and still hasn't Done anything in the game to help town beyond fluff and bluster and easy votes. I gave that a pass yesterday but one of my criteria for him was "he's charging at mac so let mac decide" and mac decided wolfy.

Regardless of his rep, Mac doesn't die if ALL his major suspicions are wrong and the four I listed were his suspects.

(Well three and Bereft, but he also scumread Bereft on first look and flipped around when he was scumreading Robyn, who godscumread Bereft, and we now know Robyn was town so.)

TSP also pinged mac's general scumdar, and before the whole mac robyn thing, we were going on bereft, and TSP came in trying to break that up with a gamestate read and a push on Abi which is... in my eyes weak and not good. There is a big part of me wanting to go Bereft -> TSP here.

And then there is Dizzy who is still just not playing the game but never got hard pressure for it except for me and mac, and now mac is dead.

I do not want to go tedxtr today.

I have. Feelings about Robyn but. They are probably not helpful. Regardless we move on. Robyn if you can see this thread I hope you are well.

So.

Rondo, Bereft, TSP, Dizzy all look abysmal to me here. I would like anyone who strongly townreads any of these players to tell me why.

I think TSP is town and moreover I think TSP is out of place with the other three names

Out of place how?

And the flop on Robyn geez

Could it be that Mac was killed because he was wrong, not because he was right?

well now I’m sitting on Gira / ran / X yeah

Abby is just in the archetype of people I like to suspect [is the reality of it]

[VOTE: TSP] aubergine

Just look at this. There is no universe town TSP comes in to this day and believes and says these things.

I feel like wolf!TSP would have better options to push than Abbi and me because neither of us were wagons or even scumread by anyone else at the point when TSP decided he thought we were scum. Idk though, am I giving too much leeway to him for that? I just think they were kind of outlandish pushes since they would do pretty much nothing to further a wolf's agenda.

On the topic of Bereft, I will take a look at him again. But if you think Ted is towny, you think the wagons were T/T yesterday, i guess. And then you had Bereft and Rondo who were both pushing Ted rather than Robyn... You think if they're both wolfing, it was just for show? Because if Ted is town, there shouldn't have been a preference for who wolves would rather push over, unless they thought that Robyn would make a strong comeback on D2 (which I guess would make sense).

Well, the level 0 read is that Bereft and TSP are wolves, Bereft was getting buried by Robyn and everyone generally, and then TSP came in to break up the momentum and say "the obvious wolf yeet is bad, it can't be that easy day 1, why don't we vote [one of the towniest players and a social player] instead, see they must be wolves because they DON'T have votes, let's play opposites land where wolfy people are towny and towny people with no pressure must be wolfy!"

I don't think Ted is towny exactly but I think he is less scummy than my main suspects and doesn't fit in many teams with them.

Saying "ted/robyn were the wagons yesterday" is i think a very inaccurate description of the day. Bereft, Dizzy and Gira were all serious wagons at points as well, arguably Rondo too. If you want to look at only the late day then it's more like "Robyn vs [resolving ted vs rondo]" and I could not hazard a guess where wolves would fall on that. I don't think Bereft/Rondo is out of the question. I think it's more important to look at the... how to explain it. The flow of the thread rather than the votals on paper when looking at wagonomics like that. Like Bereft only ever had, like, 3 actual votes on him but mid day it felt like that was a solid wagon that was very likely to go over and at eod people would pile on unless something big happened. That is what I mean by spiritual votes. Although mac disagreed with me on that. But still that's how I think.

Maybe not his scumreads, but he did make a serious push to protect and get people off of Bereft (and/or dizzy), and it was working, even before any of the robyn stuff happened. Here's the post again for reference:

Here’s the situation: not all is right. We’re about to limp into the stupidest looking bereft chop I’ve ever seen. It’s probably rand and there are somewhat good reasons not to do that. So then, who’s in this game who should know better? I promise I didn’t just immediately jump to the two voters on Bereft for the record, I think that looks slightly towny. Leetic seems to have lost a bit of the edge, can’t tell why. WWA is posting a lot but has no thread control nor have they attempted to wrest it. I won’t vote for Mac or dizzy day 1. Ted seems alright. Mac’s defending Gira. I won’t vote Rondo D1 for opposite reasons. Ran and Robyn are self resolving.

The two people he's pushing are the voters on Bereft, which he even lampshades directly and calls them towny(?!). The other wagon atp is dizzy with me and mac voting there iirc, and he blows that off as well.

The more I look here the more I am seeing tsp/bereft/dizzy. Which is very premature but. There's hella agenda.

okay so there's pushign on tsp but you're also attempting to pair him with a dead villager and made, who is probably a villager. preflip associating scum with townies is scum tactics 101. regardless, still, you were "pushing" him even if you didn't actually articulate a coherent case at all

then there's this:

Although this thread still seems suspiciously quiet. @WindwardAway any reason why you're significantly less vocal this phase than you were in the last?

Not to answer for wind in specific, but it is the weekend and our long day 1 was pretty exhausting. Would be nice if folks were around more though but... I've said my piece and don't have much new, the ball is in Dizzy's and Bereft's and Rondo's respective courts. I've cooled on TSP some but still can't really understand his mindset... but now that he's channeling illario it's probably impractical to kill him today regardless.

[VOTE: Dizzy] aubergine

I mean, lots of people said they think Rondo is scum and then voted Dizzy.
I said I changed my mind overnight, Rondo's ISO was not scummy yesterday, and then I voted Dizzy to put pressure there.
Dunno what everyone else's explanation is. Has Dizzy shown up yet?

He has not. I've moved there because TSP now has an illario in his head.

which is a very scummy attempt to get out of voting TSP using illario as an excuse

This is what you were posting later in the day:

@Ranmilia @WindwardAway @pyxxy @tedxtr Why do you think you have the best possible vote right now?

It's you or Bereft for me as of right now. You've done nothing to help town, some stuff to hurt it early on, and then hid behind inactivity. Bereft has at least been posting and Mac had them town and you wolf. There's been so much resistance and so many people saying "oh dizzy is just rand I don't want to vote there it's not spicy, it's not the BEST POSSIBLE VOTE" sort of thing that I feel like that has to be a mafia talking point. Mac had you scummy and died.

@Dyslexicon I have read your posts... I don't have much to say in response that isn't obvious or already said. If you are town, we can really use your head in the game, please keep on keepin on, read as much as you are able and give us your thoughts, and don't feel like "oh no ran is dead set on killing me" because that is not the case, unless you are a wolf in which case it is the case. But regardless very happy to finally get a game with you <3

It is at this point that a feeling that I have had already has now fully crystalised to a point where I feel the need to say it aloud.

Ran is such obvious town that anyone who has scumread them whatsoever is entirely suspicious with perhaps the sole exception of leetic.

this is you trying to push bereft/dizzy as the chops

This game.

Rondo is not a wolf.

Gira is not a wolf.

Leetic is not a wolf.

There is at least one wolf in Bereft/Dizzy, quite possibly two but the entire game freaking out (again!) about pushing there indicates at least one active partner elsewhere.

Pyxxy... *can* be a wolf but this wagon rising up and pushing them over dizzy is ???

this is you several hours before EOD, trying to push bereft/dizzy. no mention of tsp

[Ranmilia]

The Tapes, in spoiler

Spoiler: show

I have. Feelings about Robyn but. They are probably not helpful. Regardless we move on. Robyn if you can see this thread I hope you are well.

So.

Rondo, Bereft, TSP, Dizzy all look abysmal to me here. I would like anyone who strongly townreads any of these players to tell me why.

I have. Feelings about Robyn but. They are probably not helpful. Regardless we move on. Robyn if you can see this thread I hope you are well.

So.

Rondo, Bereft, TSP, Dizzy all look abysmal to me here. I would like anyone who strongly townreads any of these players to tell me why.

I wrote updated thoughts about Rondo a few posts above, if you want my input

Noted. I disagree with robyn partnership being the main thrust of suspicion though, the main suspicion in my eyes is general wolfyness and lack of solving - that he hadn't and still hasn't Done anything in the game to help town beyond fluff and bluster and easy votes. I gave that a pass yesterday but one of my criteria for him was "he's charging at mac so let mac decide" and mac decided wolfy.

Regardless of his rep, Mac doesn't die if ALL his major suspicions are wrong and the four I listed were his suspects.

(Well three and Bereft, but he also scumread Bereft on first look and flipped around when he was scumreading Robyn, who godscumread Bereft, and we now know Robyn was town so.)

TSP also pinged mac's general scumdar, and before the whole mac robyn thing, we were going on bereft, and TSP came in trying to break that up with a gamestate read and a push on Abi which is... in my eyes weak and not good. There is a big part of me wanting to go Bereft -> TSP here.

And then there is Dizzy who is still just not playing the game but never got hard pressure for it except for me and mac, and now mac is dead.

I do not want to go tedxtr today.

I have. Feelings about Robyn but. They are probably not helpful. Regardless we move on. Robyn if you can see this thread I hope you are well.

So.

Rondo, Bereft, TSP, Dizzy all look abysmal to me here. I would like anyone who strongly townreads any of these players to tell me why.

I think TSP is town and moreover I think TSP is out of place with the other three names

Out of place how?

And the flop on Robyn geez

Could it be that Mac was killed because he was wrong, not because he was right?

well now I’m sitting on Gira / ran / X yeah

Abby is just in the archetype of people I like to suspect [is the reality of it]

[VOTE: TSP] aubergine

Just look at this. There is no universe town TSP comes in to this day and believes and says these things.

I feel like wolf!TSP would have better options to push than Abbi and me because neither of us were wagons or even scumread by anyone else at the point when TSP decided he thought we were scum. Idk though, am I giving too much leeway to him for that? I just think they were kind of outlandish pushes since they would do pretty much nothing to further a wolf's agenda.

On the topic of Bereft, I will take a look at him again. But if you think Ted is towny, you think the wagons were T/T yesterday, i guess. And then you had Bereft and Rondo who were both pushing Ted rather than Robyn... You think if they're both wolfing, it was just for show? Because if Ted is town, there shouldn't have been a preference for who wolves would rather push over, unless they thought that Robyn would make a strong comeback on D2 (which I guess would make sense).

Well, the level 0 read is that Bereft and TSP are wolves, Bereft was getting buried by Robyn and everyone generally, and then TSP came in to break up the momentum and say "the obvious wolf yeet is bad, it can't be that easy day 1, why don't we vote [one of the towniest players and a social player] instead, see they must be wolves because they DON'T have votes, let's play opposites land where wolfy people are towny and towny people with no pressure must be wolfy!"

I don't think Ted is towny exactly but I think he is less scummy than my main suspects and doesn't fit in many teams with them.

Saying "ted/robyn were the wagons yesterday" is i think a very inaccurate description of the day. Bereft, Dizzy and Gira were all serious wagons at points as well, arguably Rondo too. If you want to look at only the late day then it's more like "Robyn vs [resolving ted vs rondo]" and I could not hazard a guess where wolves would fall on that. I don't think Bereft/Rondo is out of the question. I think it's more important to look at the... how to explain it. The flow of the thread rather than the votals on paper when looking at wagonomics like that. Like Bereft only ever had, like, 3 actual votes on him but mid day it felt like that was a solid wagon that was very likely to go over and at eod people would pile on unless something big happened. That is what I mean by spiritual votes. Although mac disagreed with me on that. But still that's how I think.

wind my wonderful and precious friend

"not helpful to town" is literally what "agenda" IS

that is literally the wolf agenda! to do antitown things and muddy the waters to where wolves are town and town are wolves and anyone's behavior could be anything! if that's not "agenda" then what does agenda mean to you??

Maybe not his scumreads, but he did make a serious push to protect and get people off of Bereft (and/or dizzy), and it was working, even before any of the robyn stuff happened. Here's the post again for reference:

Here’s the situation: not all is right. We’re about to limp into the stupidest looking bereft chop I’ve ever seen. It’s probably rand and there are somewhat good reasons not to do that. So then, who’s in this game who should know better? I promise I didn’t just immediately jump to the two voters on Bereft for the record, I think that looks slightly towny. Leetic seems to have lost a bit of the edge, can’t tell why. WWA is posting a lot but has no thread control nor have they attempted to wrest it. I won’t vote for Mac or dizzy day 1. Ted seems alright. Mac’s defending Gira. I won’t vote Rondo D1 for opposite reasons. Ran and Robyn are self resolving.

The two people he's pushing are the voters on Bereft, which he even lampshades directly and calls them towny(?!). The other wagon atp is dizzy with me and mac voting there iirc, and he blows that off as well.

The more I look here the more I am seeing tsp/bereft/dizzy. Which is very premature but. There's hella agenda.

Agenda doesn't only have to be a push to actually get them voted out. Discrediting correct reads is also agenda.

[Gira]

Now, the pivotal moment:

Anyway
I have this fear that none of the proposed wagons for today are wolves, but in all honesty I cannot pick out a wolf in my current read progress so that's entirely on me for being uncertain.

If you could make a wagon suddenly be the one we are on, which one?

TSP, there are no votes on him but there's been plenty of talk about how he's scummy

Anyway
I have this fear that none of the proposed wagons for today are wolves, but in all honesty I cannot pick out a wolf in my current read progress so that's entirely on me for being uncertain.

If you could make a wagon suddenly be the one we are on, which one?

TSP, there are no votes on him but there's been plenty of talk about how he's scummy

Ok I'm sorry for this but it's been close to 15 minutes and a bunch of you are active
Why does nobody have comment on this post? Is there a reason you guys are engaging with my posts before and after this but not specifically this one?

Anyway
I have this fear that none of the proposed wagons for today are wolves, but in all honesty I cannot pick out a wolf in my current read progress so that's entirely on me for being uncertain.

If you could make a wagon suddenly be the one we are on, which one?

TSP, there are no votes on him but there's been plenty of talk about how he's scummy

Ok I'm sorry for this but it's been close to 15 minutes and a bunch of you are active
Why does nobody have comment on this post? Is there a reason you guys are engaging with my posts before and after this but not specifically this one?

oh shit, sorry I didnt see it. I also dont have any read on TSP other than he is on my Wagon I have no arguments against it

I had been voting TSP as the alternative to Rondo/Dizzy for a while now, but Gira voted pyxxy, so I colonized that one.

I just have TSP as POE just generally.

Anyway
I have this fear that none of the proposed wagons for today are wolves, but in all honesty I cannot pick out a wolf in my current read progress so that's entirely on me for being uncertain.

If you could make a wagon suddenly be the one we are on, which one?

TSP, there are no votes on him but there's been plenty of talk about how he's scummy

Ok I'm sorry for this but it's been close to 15 minutes and a bunch of you are active
Why does nobody have comment on this post? Is there a reason you guys are engaging with my posts before and after this but not specifically this one?

oh shit, sorry I didnt see it. I also dont have any read on TSP other than he is on my Wagon I have no arguments against it

Tbf I said not super long ago that I wanted to iso him before eod
I don't think that's actually gonna happen but the rundown is: I thought his pushes were un-agenda'd because they weren't on players who seemed likely to gain traction as a wagon. Ran disagreed and said that making posts that were unhelpful to town does count as wolf agenda. (that's just a definition dispute and not super relevant, but I guess it boils down to whether we think any of TSP's pushes have been productive or helpful and uh... I don't think they have been)

What I'm curious about is that I am pretty sure multiple people opened the day saying TSP was in their PoE but nobody has a vote on them.

I'm down to kill tsp if illario doesn't show up.

TSP becomes a subject of discussion BECAUSE WINDWARD STARTS PUSHING HIM. The most Ran says is "yeah I could vote him too". Ran trying to act like she was the one burying TSP at EOD is incredibly wolfy

[Gira]

I'm not sure I can respond to that Dizzy post without breaking rules. Keeping my vote there and want that slot dead on policy now. Feel free and scumread me for it tomorrow if they flip town.

I think the Dizzy wagon looks worse than the pyxxy wagon in terms of who's on it
Not like terribly worse but I get a slimy feeling from it, mainly because it seems primarily like a policy yeet so reasonably anyone could be on it and take no blame if Dizzy is town

It is. The slime comes from the AtE. I'll take the blame. Any chance I can get you on it?

THIS IS YOU TRYING TO SAVE TSP AND GET WIND TO VOTE DIZZY

[Made]

@Porscha @leetic @Made

i need you to actually pay attention here, because this game is precariously close to a loss state for town. abigail is easily pocketed by anyone saying something halfway nice to her, and that is problematic. I will try to spell out my case/reasoning as much as possible.

I think to anyone with a halfway rational thought process, it's incredibly clear that i am unaligned with tsp and there should be basically no doubts about my alignment but obviously that's become inconvenient for scum. being in that position is pretty illuminating though.

[Made]

sorry im in a deeply unserious mood

[leetic]

The Bereft kill does make me a little wary of a deepwolf, as it leaves me as the "obvious" nightkill alive and thus allows someone else to more easily slip into LyLo. Then again, maybe my reads just sucked at EoD.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

neither is it why I've town read Ran or Rondo for most of the game.

So are you just gonna rescind the claim?

Nah that would be boring

I think I've made it pretty obvious the claim was fake when I said I'm no longer confident my town core is pure don't you think

I think it was pretty obvious before that.

So why do you care lol

[leetic]

Anyway, time to come clean. I actually had a third tracker shot, which I didn't claim for what should be obvious reasons. Now @Made, riddle me this: what did I catch you doing at Bereft's last night?

[Made]

oh idk this feels as likely as a janitor kill in my head: Have we considered it was a block/bodyguard/redirect?

[Gira]

Spoiler: show

The micro around ted's claim passed the smell test for me tho, so I rlly rlly rlly do not see myself reevaluating there

I have reasons why his claim didn't pass the smell test for me

If you think you're about to be night killed and its going to be lost with you why are you not sharing it?

Cause ngl I was hoping Ted would possibly eat the nightkill so I wouldn't have to solve him
I targeted him last night and I find it suspicious that he said he won't answer any questions about whatever his role is

NO
STOP
WHY
sdgkhsdkghsdklg

If any of the people who are doubting me are town, here's a biscuit for you, I knew all these PRs and never kill mac over them.

Fine. Wind I will likely vote with you. I want dizzy, bereft, tsp out the most as you know. I can see pyxxy as well. Who do you want.

[VOTE: TSP] aubergine

it is very unlikely atp that all these PRs are town but the final hour is not a good place to sort that out.

I suppose TSP isn't the worst option ever, especially since ilario seems intent on doing nothing, but I would much rather flip Dizzy here.

Same.

[VOTE: Dizzy] aubergine

ok 19 dollar fortnite card
WHO WANTS IT

[VOTE: TSP] aubergine

this is a sequence from eod, showing posts trying to deflect from tsp and save him and get dizzy killed instead. the tsp vote comes at 9:00, after the wagon on tsp has become large enough that he is going to die anyway

fact check: ran did not try to kill tsp or bury him, and in fact very explicitly tried to get someone else killed over him. ran trying to claim credit like she pushed him is scummy as fuck.

[Gira]

oh idk this feels as likely as a janitor kill in my head: Have we considered it was a block/bodyguard/redirect?

FROM WHO?

[leetic]

oh idk this feels as likely as a janitor kill in my head: Have we considered it was a block/bodyguard/redirect?

So why did you visit Bereft last night?

[Made]

Anyway, time to come clean. I actually had a third tracker shot, which I didn't claim for what should be obvious reasons. Now @Made, riddle me this: what did I catch you doing at Bereft's last night?

We do thanksgiving at each others houses. This year it was his turn to host

[leetic]

Anyway, time to come clean. I actually had a third tracker shot, which I didn't claim for what should be obvious reasons. Now @Made, riddle me this: what did I catch you doing at Bereft's last night?

We do thanksgiving at each others houses. This year it was his turn to host

You do now I have mechanical evidence against you, right?

[Made]

oh idk this feels as likely as a janitor kill in my head: Have we considered it was a block/bodyguard/redirect?

FROM WHO?

me aparently?? @leetic , to answer your question directly, I have no clue why I could be tracked to Bereft. Im pure vanilla town

[leetic]

[VOTE: Made] aubergine

[leetic]

oh idk this feels as likely as a janitor kill in my head: Have we considered it was a block/bodyguard/redirect?

FROM WHO?

me aparently?? @leetic , to answer your question directly, I have no clue why I could be tracked to Bereft. Im pure vanilla town

That's good, because the person who I actually tracked visiting Bereft was @Gira. [VOTE: Gira] aubergine

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

[VOTE: Made] aubergine

[Gira]

[VOTE: Made] aubergine

m8 you're tunneled as fuck

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Well that sucks for me ig

[Gira]

oh idk this feels as likely as a janitor kill in my head: Have we considered it was a block/bodyguard/redirect?

FROM WHO?

me aparently?? @leetic , to answer your question directly, I have no clue why I could be tracked to Bereft. Im pure vanilla town

That's good, because the person who I actually tracked visiting Bereft was @Gira. [VOTE: Gira] aubergine

i've been playing mafia since 2010, you're not going to get me with a bush league reaction test and that would be true if i was scum as well

[leetic]

[VOTE: Made] aubergine

m8 you're tunneled as fuck

And you're outed

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Oh...nvm

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

[VOTE: Unvote] aubergine

[Gira]

@Bereft i miss you already. i'm sorry for ever having said anything mean about you.

[leetic]

Okay, real target was Abby, who visited nobody. I wanted to wait a bit to see if she would claim anything that contradicted my tracker result. [VOTE: Unvote] aubergine

[leetic]

Made's reaction looks decent. Gira was a no sell.

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

@Bereft i miss you already. i'm sorry for ever having said anything mean about you.

Well this is wolfy

[leetic]

But yeah, I really did have a third tracker shot and used in on Abby. Wanted to make the most of it I guess

[Ranmilia]

TSP becomes a subject of discussion BECAUSE WINDWARD STARTS PUSHING HIM. The most Ran says is "yeah I could vote him too". Ran trying to act like she was the one burying TSP at EOD is incredibly wolfy

WINDWARD STARTS PUSHING HIM BECAUSE I SPENT AN ENTIRE NIGHT REALTIME CONVINCING HER ON HIM

Spoiler: show

Any last questions for me before I go for the night?

Reads overview yeah. Anything you want to get out if you die.

:
Mac
Ran
TSP

:
Gira
leetic
Abbi
Bereft

in front of me:
pyxxy
Dizzy

:
Ted*
Rondo*

🫗:
Robyn

*Ted/Rondo with exactly one wolf, never W/W and probably not T/T

I have. Feelings about Robyn but. They are probably not helpful. Regardless we move on. Robyn if you can see this thread I hope you are well.

So.

Rondo, Bereft, TSP, Dizzy all look abysmal to me here. I would like anyone who strongly townreads any of these players to tell me why.

I wrote updated thoughts about Rondo a few posts above, if you want my input

Noted. I disagree with robyn partnership being the main thrust of suspicion though, the main suspicion in my eyes is general wolfyness and lack of solving - that he hadn't and still hasn't Done anything in the game to help town beyond fluff and bluster and easy votes. I gave that a pass yesterday but one of my criteria for him was "he's charging at mac so let mac decide" and mac decided wolfy.

Regardless of his rep, Mac doesn't die if ALL his major suspicions are wrong and the four I listed were his suspects.

(Well three and Bereft, but he also scumread Bereft on first look and flipped around when he was scumreading Robyn, who godscumread Bereft, and we now know Robyn was town so.)

TSP also pinged mac's general scumdar, and before the whole mac robyn thing, we were going on bereft, and TSP came in trying to break that up with a gamestate read and a push on Abi which is... in my eyes weak and not good. There is a big part of me wanting to go Bereft -> TSP here.

And then there is Dizzy who is still just not playing the game but never got hard pressure for it except for me and mac, and now mac is dead.

I do not want to go tedxtr today.

I feel like wolf!TSP would have better options to push than Abbi and me because neither of us were wagons or even scumread by anyone else at the point when TSP decided he thought we were scum. Idk though, am I giving too much leeway to him for that? I just think they were kind of outlandish pushes since they would do pretty much nothing to further a wolf's agenda.

On the topic of Bereft, I will take a look at him again. But if you think Ted is towny, you think the wagons were T/T yesterday, i guess. And then you had Bereft and Rondo who were both pushing Ted rather than Robyn... You think if they're both wolfing, it was just for show? Because if Ted is town, there shouldn't have been a preference for who wolves would rather push over, unless they thought that Robyn would make a strong comeback on D2 (which I guess would make sense).

well now I’m sitting on Gira / ran / X yeah

Abby is just in the archetype of people I like to suspect [is the reality of it]

You're gonna have to sell me hard on the Ran scumread. And with more than just that "abysmal" was an out-of-place description.
Gira I went back and forth on earlier and figured at some point that I was just being uncharitable to him earlier in the game. I'd also like to hear a case on him.

Is it just that you think wolves have thread pull?

And the flop on Robyn geez

Could it be that Mac was killed because he was wrong, not because he was right?

well now I’m sitting on Gira / ran / X yeah

Abby is just in the archetype of people I like to suspect [is the reality of it]

[VOTE: TSP] aubergine

Just look at this. There is no universe town TSP comes in to this day and believes and says these things.

I just kinda think his pushes are so completely opposite to my reads and to the consensus that it's probably not agenda
He doesn't have a ton of thread influence so picking targets to push who are unlikely to become wagons seems to do nothing, imo
If we're going by the "not helpful to town" metric, maybe I could see it, but otherwise there's no agenda as far as I can tell.

wind my wonderful and precious friend

"not helpful to town" is literally what "agenda" IS

that is literally the wolf agenda! to do antitown things and muddy the waters to where wolves are town and town are wolves and anyone's behavior could be anything! if that's not "agenda" then what does agenda mean to you??

Agenda, to me, is when a wolf makes an active effort to push a town player that they think will actually gain traction as a wagon, not just to muddy the waters but to try to get their target voted out.

I could buy that w!TSP wants to see what sticks, but I legit think that none of his pushes so far sound remotely like they'd stick. None of them are even sowing paranoia for me, and I would expect a wolf to at least try to increase paranoia levels by writing up a case on their unlikely targets and trying to convince people to give those names another look. But I don't feel like TSP is trying to convince anyone of his reads. He's just giving them, and it seems to end there. Idk, maybe I'm just immune to whatever convincing he's done but I've seen no real push to make others believe his reads. Unless you count him saying that nobody has given a real towncase on Abbi, but that's kinda been objectively true, and it doesn't change my opinion.

Maybe not his scumreads, but he did make a serious push to protect and get people off of Bereft (and/or dizzy), and it was working, even before any of the robyn stuff happened. Here's the post again for reference:

Here’s the situation: not all is right. We’re about to limp into the stupidest looking bereft chop I’ve ever seen. It’s probably rand and there are somewhat good reasons not to do that. So then, who’s in this game who should know better? I promise I didn’t just immediately jump to the two voters on Bereft for the record, I think that looks slightly towny. Leetic seems to have lost a bit of the edge, can’t tell why. WWA is posting a lot but has no thread control nor have they attempted to wrest it. I won’t vote for Mac or dizzy day 1. Ted seems alright. Mac’s defending Gira. I won’t vote Rondo D1 for opposite reasons. Ran and Robyn are self resolving.

The two people he's pushing are the voters on Bereft, which he even lampshades directly and calls them towny(?!). The other wagon atp is dizzy with me and mac voting there iirc, and he blows that off as well.

The more I look here the more I am seeing tsp/bereft/dizzy. Which is very premature but. There's hella agenda.

I completely forgot about that lol, thanks for quoting it

Agenda doesn't only have to be a push to actually get them voted out. Discrediting correct reads is also agenda.

Yeah, I didn't think I saw any discrediting from TSP but forgot about the Bereft thing so yeah, I understand your case now

Not sure how much I agree but at least I see where you're coming from

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

I'm vanilla as fuck tbh

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Anyways cool back to Girathan

[VOTE: Gira] aubergine

Ran
Rondo
Leetic

Town Core

Yummy

[Ranmilia]

what is going on

[Made]

can i get a meta check on leetic? is his game this insane regardless of alignment

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

what is going on

A bunch of reaction tests and than a probably real claim

[leetic]

Also, Abby seeming to believe/jump on my "result" on Made is… something I guess

[Ranmilia]

can i get a meta check on leetic? is his game this insane regardless of alignment

according to jack yes, leetic lock town

and yeah no kidding I wavered on TSP because of the illario news and Bereft/dizzy. I do not know who the mafia are. I am and have been doing my best to find them, I did find TSP and it should be obvious to everyone that there is no world I'm teamed with him. Apologies for the frustration and the giant quote walls.

[leetic]

I at least think that Made's reaction confirms that he wasn't the person to make the Bereft kill; if he was he would have been taken aback at least slightly

[tedxtr]

bereft is a likely villager, idc that he’s not flipped

wolves have a kill every night, guise!

my guess as to why him and why he’s not flipped is to keep cred alive in the deep people

im not killing leetic / made, leetic is a likely villa PR but i really don’t buy he tracked abi here

[Gira]

Now, I make no claim to have buried TSP. That would be a misrepresentation of reality. What is true is this: 1. i tried pushing him on day 2, and in fact lost my shit at him, 2. he tried very clearly to placate me when i started attacking him.

Spoiler: show

well now I’m sitting on Gira / ran / X yeah

Abby is just in the archetype of people I like to suspect [is the reality of it]

Could it be that Mac was killed because he was wrong, not because he was right?

If that were the case, I would expect he'd be killed for having an incorrect townread and not necessarily an incorrect scumread, like if he were hard shielding a wolf.

(hes gonna hate that I'm saying this since it risks tearing up the towncore, but I mean from a wolf perspective it's more beneficial to kill a loud townie with thread pull who accidentally townreads a wolf imo)

But I legit just think he was killed for being super towny, and I'm not reading into whether his reads were accurate or not, beyond what I already formed opinions on while he was around.

i like highly disagree with this from a theory POV, but as this is all speculative there's no use to it

but to use a real concrete example from this game, mac was hard townreading me and now that he's dead you have shitters like bereft and tsp and insomnia wanting to kill me for no actual discernable reason. mac has never failed to recognize me as town when i am town, he would be shutting that down immediately, he is probably cringing at the fact that there is an attempted push on me at all

but no one actually cares who dead players were townreading. as far as the wolves are concerned i am now a viable mis-elim and there is almost certainly one who is trying for that

insomnia demonstrably can't actually read me and so him suspecting me feels the most believable of the 3

If I were given the ability to flip any five players in the game immediately you would not be on that list

To be clear

But also I agree with the analysis

imho it's rrrrarely that simple and only an exceptionally ballsy/crazy scum player makes a push that direct to save a teammate

and if anything my knowledge of TSP is that he's very, very heavy handed with the distancing as mafia

a lot of what he posts comes across as towny in demeanor but i think his votes and pushes are objectively wolfsiding and the more he does it the more likely it becomes that he's just utterly full of it and trying to push a scum agenda

While I’m on it 1) I think TSP-spew narratives have been fairly well discredited [hopefully] but in my defense 2) second and third paragraphs seem contradictory to me

not really it's a matter of timing and positioning

you can throw shade on your partners all day but still make sure your main votes are pushing scum agenda

and atp your susses are increasingly egregious to the point where you should be killed for them, tbqh

Idk

Seems wrong, people in this thread are happily pushing way worse targets to me

Seems wrong, people in this thread are happily pushing way worse targets to me

who are the "worse targets" exactly?

Seems wrong, people in this thread are happily pushing way worse targets to me

who are the "worse targets" exactly?

Bereft / Ted

Which I’m actually not really serious about but I’m not entirely sure like who you think I’m wolfily pushing since I actually can’t recall really pushing anyone (which is of course wolfy in itself)

I guess the Ran stuff does count

Seems wrong, people in this thread are happily pushing way worse targets to me

who are the "worse targets" exactly?

Bereft / Ted

Which I’m actually not really serious about but I’m not entirely sure like who you think I’m wolfily pushing since I actually can’t recall really pushing anyone (which is of course wolfy in itself)

I guess the Ran stuff does count

the ran stuff, you voting wind/abi day 1, posts like this

Five flips are dizzy rondo bereft ran and Abigail narrowly over Ted before Leetic asks

throwing darts at me on/off

just looks to me like you're mostly attacking townspeople for barely coherent reasons

if dizzy's not playing he's not playing

i had hoped my vote on him would lead to some pressure because he needed it but if he's afk it does exactly nothing and leads to thread discussion centering around him which is bad. i will instead vote tsp, who is being a scummy scumfuck

[VOTE: tsp] aubergine

Seems wrong, people in this thread are happily pushing way worse targets to me

who are the "worse targets" exactly?

Bereft / Ted

Which I’m actually not really serious about but I’m not entirely sure like who you think I’m wolfily pushing since I actually can’t recall really pushing anyone (which is of course wolfy in itself)

I guess the Ran stuff does count

the ran stuff, you voting wind/abi day 1, posts like this

Five flips are dizzy rondo bereft ran and Abigail narrowly over Ted before Leetic asks

throwing darts at me on/off

just looks to me like you're mostly attacking townspeople for barely coherent reasons

It feels like expect me to have a coherent set of thoughts about the game and the people in it and to not express any concerns or disagreements with people who I think are more than likely town. However, I do not have a coherent set of thoughts about the game and there is not a player in this game who I think isn’t more than likely town. You want the impossible

I’m not going to push Ran (that will go nowhere) I’m just here to complain. Like yeah I probably could push dizzy but I’m vaguely resigned on that one. I’m just not going to push Gira and I’m not even interested really. I don’t think Gira’s a good chop today.

notably also he started off the day by calling me scum, on the momentum that was created by bereft/tedxtr, only to back off when i started going after him. i'm biased, but, like...he clearly wanted nothing to do with me tried to de-escalate while i continued to be aggressive toward him. that's not a scum/scum dynamic, basically ever

[leetic]

I at least think that Made's reaction confirms that he wasn't the person to make the Bereft kill; if he was he would have been taken aback at least slightly

Although of course, a big reason why I didn't track Made was because even if they're a wolf they're unlikely to submit the kill anyway

[Gira]

backreading also reminded me that leetic looks really good off tsp interaction not that i had cause for doubt

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Also, Abby seeming to believe/jump on my "result" on Made is… something I guess

Meh

[☆Princess Abigail☆]

Oh right made is in my town core to

Made
Ran
Rondo
Leetic

[RondoDimBuckle]

my reaction on reading the last page. I dont even know what to make of that

[leetic]

bereft is a likely villager, idc that he’s not flipped

wolves have a kill every night, guise!

my guess as to why him and why he’s not flipped is to keep cred alive in the deep people

im not killing leetic / made, leetic is a likely villa PR but i really don’t buy he tracked abi here

Wolves can kill ITPs just as well as they can kill town. I mean, Bereft was basically phoning it in yesterday, it's not hard to believe he's unaligned

And what reason would I have to lie about my Abby result?

[tedxtr]

I'm also busy, starting to settle down some now. Procrastinating on reading.

I don't want to sleepwalk into made here. Simultaneously I wish I had made's flip. Jack and I expected to die and the fact that we have not says... I have no idea what it says because that unflip is wild.

Leaving it entirely aside, at a macro level, Made yesterday didn't make me feel like a wolf talking BS, gira and ted did. So that's where my head is at.

weren’t you the one that was hard pushing him at EoD?

[tedxtr]

bereft is a likely villager, idc that he’s not flipped

wolves have a kill every night, guise!

my guess as to why him and why he’s not flipped is to keep cred alive in the deep people

im not killing leetic / made, leetic is a likely villa PR but i really don’t buy he tracked abi here

Wolves can kill ITPs just as well as they can kill town. I mean, Bereft was basically phoning it in yesterday, it's not hard to believe he's unaligned

And what reason would I have to lie about my Abby result?

idk. why would there be 2 roles that are 2 shot and the tracker is 3 shot?

for the same reason you lied about gira / made