Game of Champions- Merged Thread [GAME OVER- SERIAL KILLER WINS]

[DrWilgy]

4 have chimed in saying it's likely me without saying why lol.

Feels arbitrary and a repeat of Nook's yeet.

[DrWilgy]

I should've been more vocal about the Nook yeet. Bleh.

[DrWilgy]

[VOTE: The Moon] aubergine

@Scotty @S~V~S

[WindwardAway]

[VOTE: The Moon] aubergine

Uh you might wanna pick another card cause I claimed this one already
It's not updated in the OP yet

[WindwardAway]

4 have chimed in saying it's likely me without saying why lol.

Feels arbitrary and a repeat of Nook's yeet.

I'm actually not 100% sold on it being you. I'm still working through it.

It's primarily a PoE narrowing but I think you're a potential Landlord because Brad never mentioned or interacted with you at all. imo you're a little less likely to be an Arbiter based on falcon treatment but i haven't gone through Rico's or Lemon's ISOs yet, and I think Lemon's will be the most relevant to look through because she was also in East facility.

I'm not married to this take and I'm happy to discuss stuff with you to see if I reach a different conclusion. I feel like I didn't give Nook enough of a chance in terms of that, like I interacted with him toward eod but not enough before that, and I think that mightve made a difference in my level of confidence on him.

[WindwardAway]

That's pretty much the summary of my overnight thoughts btw
I gotta sleep now

[nutella]

Actually uhhh 360 no scope [VOTE: windwardaway] aubergine

I just got bored enough to finally go back to reading some east facility isos and I feel better about wilgy and worse about wind again

Think wilgy posts dont quite make sense with either team but wind fits as landlord (and radish could still be the arbiter)

Wilgy did basically just never interact with brad yeah but idk just a vibe that i could easily see him as just uninformed while i could see your brad comments as a light bus

[WindwardAway]

4 have chimed in saying it's likely me without saying why lol.

Feels arbitrary and a repeat of Nook's yeet.

I'm actually not 100% sold on it being you. I'm still working through it.

It's primarily a PoE narrowing but I think you're a potential Landlord because Brad never mentioned or interacted with you at all. imo you're a little less likely to be an Arbiter based on falcon treatment but i haven't gone through Rico's or Lemon's ISOs yet, and I think Lemon's will be the most relevant to look through because she was also in East facility.

I'm not married to this take and I'm happy to discuss stuff with you to see if I reach a different conclusion. I feel like I didn't give Nook enough of a chance in terms of that, like I interacted with him toward eod but not enough before that, and I think that mightve made a difference in my level of confidence on him.

Oh yeah on the thing about lack of Brad interaction, I was talking about it for a while yesterday
That's also why Nanook was a potential landlord imo (I had different reasons for thinking he could be an arbiter, obviously)
I feel like the people who didn't interact with Brad and also didn't make it on his townlist are more likely to be partnered than anyone else, because of the flips we've seen so far and how they fit into his interactions and "town list".

[nutella]

Also like it was productive to remind myself how wolfy you were on d1 lol i think i changed my mind too easily and you merely bounced back to making yourself look towny

Also alison is doubtless mad that we've gone several days towning you

[WindwardAway]

Actually uhhh 360 no scope [VOTE: windwardaway] aubergine

I just got bored enough to finally go back to reading some east facility isos and I feel better about wilgy and worse about wind again

Think wilgy posts dont quite make sense with either team but wind fits as landlord (and radish could still be the arbiter)

Wilgy did basically just never interact with brad yeah but idk just a vibe that i could easily see him as just uninformed while i could see your brad comments as a light bus

Read Brad's response to me, though
He didn't even reply directly to me and just went like, oh man, I thought you were town as soon as I voted him

[WindwardAway]

Tbf I'd rather be mislunched today than in XyLo so that's fine, I'm not gonna argue against being a wagon

[WindwardAway]

I had a thought on Radishes as well last night but decided his ISO looked better than Wilgy's

[WindwardAway]

So I don't think I want to vote Radishes

[nutella]

Actually uhhh 360 no scope [VOTE: windwardaway] aubergine

I just got bored enough to finally go back to reading some east facility isos and I feel better about wilgy and worse about wind again

Think wilgy posts dont quite make sense with either team but wind fits as landlord (and radish could still be the arbiter)

Wilgy did basically just never interact with brad yeah but idk just a vibe that i could easily see him as just uninformed while i could see your brad comments as a light bus

Read Brad's response to me, though
He didn't even reply directly to me and just went like, oh man, I thought you were town as soon as I voted him

You are the only non-flipped (non-me) name in his town list and I think it's decently likely he included his teammate actually. Put you second. I mean either way that gets read is just gonna be confbiased but I don't see why his response to you can't be a teammate interaction

[WindwardAway]

Actually uhhh 360 no scope [VOTE: windwardaway] aubergine

I just got bored enough to finally go back to reading some east facility isos and I feel better about wilgy and worse about wind again

Think wilgy posts dont quite make sense with either team but wind fits as landlord (and radish could still be the arbiter)

Wilgy did basically just never interact with brad yeah but idk just a vibe that i could easily see him as just uninformed while i could see your brad comments as a light bus

Read Brad's response to me, though
He didn't even reply directly to me and just went like, oh man, I thought you were town as soon as I voted him

You are the only non-flipped (non-me) name in his town list and I think it's decently likely he included his teammate actually. Put you second. I mean either way that gets read is just gonna be confbiased but I don't see why his response to you can't be a teammate interaction

Because I think the exact opposite about his townlist. I absolutely do not think you have partner equity with Brad, and from your pov I should, if we're the only two living players left on his townlist. But I don't believe that's true because I'm not his partner and I don't think you are, either. Does that make any sense? I don't think Brad's townlist is a good reason to push you. I know I thought earlier in the game that you had TMI on falcon because I completely misinterpreted your posts, but I would still argue that something like that would be a stronger reason than whether Brad listed you as town or not, and that reasoning is completely gone for me now.

I guess what I'm saying is, you can have your paranoia about my being in Brad's list, but I wouldn't apply the same logic to you. Am I wrong for thinking that?

[WindwardAway]

I feel like that didn't even make sense
tl;dr i disagree with the logic because I think Brad was in heavy antispew, especially if pyxxy was flipping in the other thread at the same time, so I a fairly confident he accounted for that when he made his readlist because it was so close to eod.

[WindwardAway]

Ok yeah never mind ignore me
That doesn't make any sense

[WindwardAway]

I'll try explaining again when I'm awake

[WindwardAway]

Ok I'll try one more time
I'm pretty sure that you, Nutella, would not let Brad get away with writing your name as a partner in a list with a bunch of non-partners like that. I wouldn't, either, especially not if I'm in the thread at the same time as he is and could just tell him in wolfchat not to do it. If he was gonna screw around and get himself yeeted, I'd make sure he didn't spew his teammates so easily. But my point is, I have the same expectation of you, so I do not believe that your name being in Brad's list is as important as the notion that you as a partner would allow him to do that. I just don't think you would, for the same reason I wouldn't.

[nutella]

Actually uhhh 360 no scope [VOTE: windwardaway] aubergine

I just got bored enough to finally go back to reading some east facility isos and I feel better about wilgy and worse about wind again

Think wilgy posts dont quite make sense with either team but wind fits as landlord (and radish could still be the arbiter)

Wilgy did basically just never interact with brad yeah but idk just a vibe that i could easily see him as just uninformed while i could see your brad comments as a light bus

Read Brad's response to me, though
He didn't even reply directly to me and just went like, oh man, I thought you were town as soon as I voted him

You are the only non-flipped (non-me) name in his town list and I think it's decently likely he included his teammate actually. Put you second. I mean either way that gets read is just gonna be confbiased but I don't see why his response to you can't be a teammate interaction

Because I think the exact opposite about his townlist. I absolutely do not think you have partner equity with Brad, and from your pov I should, if we're the only two living players left on his townlist. But I don't believe that's true because I'm not his partner and I don't think you are, either. Does that make any sense? I don't think Brad's townlist is a good reason to push you. I know I thought earlier in the game that you had TMI on falcon because I completely misinterpreted your posts, but I would still argue that something like that would be a stronger reason than whether Brad listed you as town or not, and that reasoning is completely gone for me now.

I guess what I'm saying is, you can have your paranoia about my being in Brad's list, but I wouldn't apply the same logic to you. Am I wrong for thinking that?

That's fine. But his treatment of us is not identical

[nutella]

Ok I'll try one more time
I'm pretty sure that you, Nutella, would not let Brad get away with writing your name as a partner in a list with a bunch of non-partners like that. I wouldn't, either, especially not if I'm in the thread at the same time as he is and could just tell him in wolfchat not to do it. If he was gonna screw around and get himself yeeted, I'd make sure he didn't spew his teammates so easily. But my point is, I have the same expectation of you, so I do not believe that your name being in Brad's list is as important as the notion that you as a partner would allow him to do that. I just don't think you would, for the same reason I wouldn't.

I doubt his teammates were dictating the list or any of his posts. Whether or not he was in full antispew is one thing but this is silly

[WindwardAway]

Actually uhhh 360 no scope [VOTE: windwardaway] aubergine

I just got bored enough to finally go back to reading some east facility isos and I feel better about wilgy and worse about wind again

Think wilgy posts dont quite make sense with either team but wind fits as landlord (and radish could still be the arbiter)

Wilgy did basically just never interact with brad yeah but idk just a vibe that i could easily see him as just uninformed while i could see your brad comments as a light bus

Read Brad's response to me, though
He didn't even reply directly to me and just went like, oh man, I thought you were town as soon as I voted him

You are the only non-flipped (non-me) name in his town list and I think it's decently likely he included his teammate actually. Put you second. I mean either way that gets read is just gonna be confbiased but I don't see why his response to you can't be a teammate interaction

Because I think the exact opposite about his townlist. I absolutely do not think you have partner equity with Brad, and from your pov I should, if we're the only two living players left on his townlist. But I don't believe that's true because I'm not his partner and I don't think you are, either. Does that make any sense? I don't think Brad's townlist is a good reason to push you. I know I thought earlier in the game that you had TMI on falcon because I completely misinterpreted your posts, but I would still argue that something like that would be a stronger reason than whether Brad listed you as town or not, and that reasoning is completely gone for me now.

I guess what I'm saying is, you can have your paranoia about my being in Brad's list, but I wouldn't apply the same logic to you. Am I wrong for thinking that?

That's fine. But his treatment of us is not identical

Why, because he commented on my vote without actually quoting me?

[WindwardAway]

Ok I'll try one more time
I'm pretty sure that you, Nutella, would not let Brad get away with writing your name as a partner in a list with a bunch of non-partners like that. I wouldn't, either, especially not if I'm in the thread at the same time as he is and could just tell him in wolfchat not to do it. If he was gonna screw around and get himself yeeted, I'd make sure he didn't spew his teammates so easily. But my point is, I have the same expectation of you, so I do not believe that your name being in Brad's list is as important as the notion that you as a partner would allow him to do that. I just don't think you would, for the same reason I wouldn't.

I doubt his teammates were dictating the list or any of his posts. Whether or not he was in full antispew is one thing but this is silly

I believe he had a teammate who was
Because I've wolfed with him before. And when he was under pressure and frozen in the thread, he went immediately to wolfchat to ask us what he should do.

[WindwardAway]

On an unrelated topic, I've concluded that Davos is probably a town sock puppet because of the two 3p flips. It would make more sense for balance that town gets two extra votes.

Doesn't really explain why Davos didn't do anything yesterday, but I don't think it's indicative of alignment.

[WindwardAway]

Ok I'll try one more time
I'm pretty sure that you, Nutella, would not let Brad get away with writing your name as a partner in a list with a bunch of non-partners like that. I wouldn't, either, especially not if I'm in the thread at the same time as he is and could just tell him in wolfchat not to do it. If he was gonna screw around and get himself yeeted, I'd make sure he didn't spew his teammates so easily. But my point is, I have the same expectation of you, so I do not believe that your name being in Brad's list is as important as the notion that you as a partner would allow him to do that. I just don't think you would, for the same reason I wouldn't.

I doubt his teammates were dictating the list or any of his posts. Whether or not he was in full antispew is one thing but this is silly

I believe he had a teammate who was
Because I've wolfed with him before. And when he was under pressure and frozen in the thread, he went immediately to wolfchat to ask us what he should do.

This is to say, he spent like a full 12 hours or more talking in wolfchat without appearing in the thread

[WindwardAway]

Ok I'll try one more time
I'm pretty sure that you, Nutella, would not let Brad get away with writing your name as a partner in a list with a bunch of non-partners like that. I wouldn't, either, especially not if I'm in the thread at the same time as he is and could just tell him in wolfchat not to do it. If he was gonna screw around and get himself yeeted, I'd make sure he didn't spew his teammates so easily. But my point is, I have the same expectation of you, so I do not believe that your name being in Brad's list is as important as the notion that you as a partner would allow him to do that. I just don't think you would, for the same reason I wouldn't.

I doubt his teammates were dictating the list or any of his posts. Whether or not he was in full antispew is one thing but this is silly

I believe he had a teammate who was
Because I've wolfed with him before. And when he was under pressure and frozen in the thread, he went immediately to wolfchat to ask us what he should do.

This is to say, he spent like a full 12 hours or more talking in wolfchat without appearing in the thread

In two games, of a sample size two where we were w/w

[nutella]

Ok I'll try one more time
I'm pretty sure that you, Nutella, would not let Brad get away with writing your name as a partner in a list with a bunch of non-partners like that. I wouldn't, either, especially not if I'm in the thread at the same time as he is and could just tell him in wolfchat not to do it. If he was gonna screw around and get himself yeeted, I'd make sure he didn't spew his teammates so easily. But my point is, I have the same expectation of you, so I do not believe that your name being in Brad's list is as important as the notion that you as a partner would allow him to do that. I just don't think you would, for the same reason I wouldn't.

I doubt his teammates were dictating the list or any of his posts. Whether or not he was in full antispew is one thing but this is silly

I believe he had a teammate who was
Because I've wolfed with him before. And when he was under pressure and frozen in the thread, he went immediately to wolfchat to ask us what he should do.

This is to say, he spent like a full 12 hours or more talking in wolfchat without appearing in the thread

In two games, of a sample size two where we were w/w

interesting thank you for the data

[WindwardAway]

Ok I'll try one more time
I'm pretty sure that you, Nutella, would not let Brad get away with writing your name as a partner in a list with a bunch of non-partners like that. I wouldn't, either, especially not if I'm in the thread at the same time as he is and could just tell him in wolfchat not to do it. If he was gonna screw around and get himself yeeted, I'd make sure he didn't spew his teammates so easily. But my point is, I have the same expectation of you, so I do not believe that your name being in Brad's list is as important as the notion that you as a partner would allow him to do that. I just don't think you would, for the same reason I wouldn't.

I doubt his teammates were dictating the list or any of his posts. Whether or not he was in full antispew is one thing but this is silly

I believe he had a teammate who was
Because I've wolfed with him before. And when he was under pressure and frozen in the thread, he went immediately to wolfchat to ask us what he should do.

This is to say, he spent like a full 12 hours or more talking in wolfchat without appearing in the thread

In two games, of a sample size two where we were w/w

Oh yeah and I hellbussed him in both these games

[WindwardAway]

I can't sleep, I'm too jetlagged

[Epignosis]

Host fail.

Spoiler: show

Paul Reed Smith Double Neck Dragon
Double the strings, double the music. Rock on.

Spoiler: show

Triple the strings.

[Epignosis]

[VOTE: The Hierophant] aubergine

@Scotty @S~V~S

[Epignosis]

I don't have to see a fucking football or read a word about football again until fall.

I am gleeful. I want to do somersaults. Alas, I am old and tired and will do myself a misCHIEF.

[Epignosis]

I'm unwinding with two beers, a Yuengling and a Miller Lite, in that order, before I give this screen a pair of middle fingers and locate my bed. I apologize for being useless all weekend, but bills before kills.

[Epignosis]

Based on my review of the Landlords, I still don't have a positive perspective on Delta.

[Epignosis]

There's a ton of bullshit to wade through in Lemonfairy's posts, but that needs a fresher mind than I have right now.

[Epignosis]

I'm gassed after this weekend. I'll be in good shape tomorrow.

[Master Radishes]

I don't have to see a fucking football or read a word about football again until fall.

I am gleeful. I want to do somersaults. Alas, I am old and tired and will do myself a misCHIEF.

You know, it's really great of Taylor Swift to use her celebrity to make the Superbowl so popular.

[Master Radishes]

(and radish could still be the arbiter)

?

I think you have this backwards. I have few hard associations with Landlords, but I'm definitely not an Arbiter. Falcon was clearly annoyed with me and I kept bringing Lemon's name up into conversation.

[WindwardAway]

I'm still at work but I wanna get through some ISOs when I'm done for the day, assuming I have the energy. I've only been looking at East Facility and this thread, but I want to look back at N0 for once.

[WindwardAway]

Because I feel like maybe N0 has some important interactions that I've forgotten about by now, or haven't seen, because it was the only thread I didn't ever completely backread. And I think there might be some clues in there as to the last two wolves.

[DrWilgy]

[VOTE: The Moon] aubergine

Uh you might wanna pick another card cause I claimed this one already
It's not updated in the OP yet

Mmm... Thank you.

@Scotty @S~V~S [VOTE: The Emperor] aubergine

[DrWilgy]

4 have chimed in saying it's likely me without saying why lol.

Feels arbitrary and a repeat of Nook's yeet.

I'm actually not 100% sold on it being you. I'm still working through it.

It's primarily a PoE narrowing but I think you're a potential Landlord because Brad never mentioned or interacted with you at all. imo you're a little less likely to be an Arbiter based on falcon treatment but i haven't gone through Rico's or Lemon's ISOs yet, and I think Lemon's will be the most relevant to look through because she was also in East facility.

I'm not married to this take and I'm happy to discuss stuff with you to see if I reach a different conclusion. I feel like I didn't give Nook enough of a chance in terms of that, like I interacted with him toward eod but not enough before that, and I think that mightve made a difference in my level of confidence on him.

I guess if we have to just yeet the players that had minimal Brad interaction, that's fine, but I'm finding it very strange that you still tr MR's interactions with Brad in spite of the day 1 poll, MR being the only non villager element on the villager cw.

It just feels bad to me.

[Master Radishes]

4 have chimed in saying it's likely me without saying why lol.

Feels arbitrary and a repeat of Nook's yeet.

I'm actually not 100% sold on it being you. I'm still working through it.

It's primarily a PoE narrowing but I think you're a potential Landlord because Brad never mentioned or interacted with you at all. imo you're a little less likely to be an Arbiter based on falcon treatment but i haven't gone through Rico's or Lemon's ISOs yet, and I think Lemon's will be the most relevant to look through because she was also in East facility.

I'm not married to this take and I'm happy to discuss stuff with you to see if I reach a different conclusion. I feel like I didn't give Nook enough of a chance in terms of that, like I interacted with him toward eod but not enough before that, and I think that mightve made a difference in my level of confidence on him.

I guess if we have to just yeet the players that had minimal Brad interaction, that's fine, but I'm finding it very strange that you still tr MR's interactions with Brad in spite of the day 1 poll, MR being the only non villager element on the villager cw.

It just feels bad to me.

I suppose it's because Windy is better than you at reading associations.

It was a CW of like..3 votes? Brad was obviously going down. A wolf partner is far more likely to bus than try to prop up a counterwagon on their lonesome.

[leetic]

4 have chimed in saying it's likely me without saying why lol.

Feels arbitrary and a repeat of Nook's yeet.

I'm actually not 100% sold on it being you. I'm still working through it.

It's primarily a PoE narrowing but I think you're a potential Landlord because Brad never mentioned or interacted with you at all. imo you're a little less likely to be an Arbiter based on falcon treatment but i haven't gone through Rico's or Lemon's ISOs yet, and I think Lemon's will be the most relevant to look through because she was also in East facility.

I'm not married to this take and I'm happy to discuss stuff with you to see if I reach a different conclusion. I feel like I didn't give Nook enough of a chance in terms of that, like I interacted with him toward eod but not enough before that, and I think that mightve made a difference in my level of confidence on him.

I guess if we have to just yeet the players that had minimal Brad interaction, that's fine, but I'm finding it very strange that you still tr MR's interactions with Brad in spite of the day 1 poll, MR being the only non villager element on the villager cw.

It just feels bad to me.

I suppose it's because Windy is better than you at reading associations.

It was a CW of like..3 votes? Brad was obviously going down. A wolf partner is far more likely to bus than try to prop up a counterwagon on their lonesome.

I don't know the full context of this interaction, as I don't have access to the thread, but I will say that both are things wolf partners can and will do, especially if they're worried about the vote looking like a bus. Noob players admittedly are more likely to bus no matter what, but more experienced players tend to be more prudent about such things; it often depends on what their progression before looks like, as they don't often want the vote to look like it came out of nowhere.

[leetic]

(and radish could still be the arbiter)

?

I think you have this backwards. I have few hard associations with Landlords, but I'm definitely not an Arbiter. Falcon was clearly annoyed with me and I kept bringing Lemon's name up into conversation.

I do not really like this post. If you're town, you should be more confident in not being a part of either of those factions

[leetic]

I don't have to see a fucking football or read a word about football again until fall.

I am gleeful. I want to do somersaults. Alas, I am old and tired and will do myself a misCHIEF.

You know, it's really great of Taylor Swift to use her celebrity to make the Superbowl so popular.

Because promoting concussions is cool I guess

[DrWilgy]

4 have chimed in saying it's likely me without saying why lol.

Feels arbitrary and a repeat of Nook's yeet.

I'm actually not 100% sold on it being you. I'm still working through it.

It's primarily a PoE narrowing but I think you're a potential Landlord because Brad never mentioned or interacted with you at all. imo you're a little less likely to be an Arbiter based on falcon treatment but i haven't gone through Rico's or Lemon's ISOs yet, and I think Lemon's will be the most relevant to look through because she was also in East facility.

I'm not married to this take and I'm happy to discuss stuff with you to see if I reach a different conclusion. I feel like I didn't give Nook enough of a chance in terms of that, like I interacted with him toward eod but not enough before that, and I think that mightve made a difference in my level of confidence on him.

I guess if we have to just yeet the players that had minimal Brad interaction, that's fine, but I'm finding it very strange that you still tr MR's interactions with Brad in spite of the day 1 poll, MR being the only non villager element on the villager cw.

It just feels bad to me.

I suppose it's because Windy is better than you at reading associations.

It was a CW of like..3 votes? Brad was obviously going down. A wolf partner is far more likely to bus than try to prop up a counterwagon on their lonesome.

I'll double check, but I remember thinking that you're joining the cw wasn't at a point where it was firm for Brad going down like 3 to 5?

If there was actually no momentum shift, then I'll probably need to reread.

[Master Radishes]

(and radish could still be the arbiter)

?

I think you have this backwards. I have few hard associations with Landlords, but I'm definitely not an Arbiter. Falcon was clearly annoyed with me and I kept bringing Lemon's name up into conversation.

I do not really like this post. If you're town, you should be more confident in not being a part of either of those factions

I'm quite confident, but I don't see why that has to stop me from exploring why nutella's hypothetical is obviously incorrect.

[Master Radishes]

I don't have to see a fucking football or read a word about football again until fall.

I am gleeful. I want to do somersaults. Alas, I am old and tired and will do myself a misCHIEF.

You know, it's really great of Taylor Swift to use her celebrity to make the Superbowl so popular.

Because promoting concussions is cool I guess

The joke I made may have gone over yours (and likely others') head, I guess.

[Master Radishes]

4 have chimed in saying it's likely me without saying why lol.

Feels arbitrary and a repeat of Nook's yeet.

I'm actually not 100% sold on it being you. I'm still working through it.

It's primarily a PoE narrowing but I think you're a potential Landlord because Brad never mentioned or interacted with you at all. imo you're a little less likely to be an Arbiter based on falcon treatment but i haven't gone through Rico's or Lemon's ISOs yet, and I think Lemon's will be the most relevant to look through because she was also in East facility.

I'm not married to this take and I'm happy to discuss stuff with you to see if I reach a different conclusion. I feel like I didn't give Nook enough of a chance in terms of that, like I interacted with him toward eod but not enough before that, and I think that mightve made a difference in my level of confidence on him.

I guess if we have to just yeet the players that had minimal Brad interaction, that's fine, but I'm finding it very strange that you still tr MR's interactions with Brad in spite of the day 1 poll, MR being the only non villager element on the villager cw.

It just feels bad to me.

I suppose it's because Windy is better than you at reading associations.

It was a CW of like..3 votes? Brad was obviously going down. A wolf partner is far more likely to bus than try to prop up a counterwagon on their lonesome.

I'll double check, but I remember thinking that you're joining the cw wasn't at a point where it was firm for Brad going down like 3 to 5?

If there was actually no momentum shift, then I'll probably need to reread.

I don't remember specifically, but I just remember thinking Brad was the likely elim and I went for creating a counterwagon for reasons of science and such.