boo wrote:I'm going to go ahead and point out what to me is blatantly obvious but has some how gone undiscussed in what Epi and DH have already been talking about re: the mafia (maybe, kinda, sorta) teams. Remember Bioshock. That MP game where I was right on the nose about the breakdown of roles from the get-go, outlining it in detail on D4 when I was killed for being right? Because I do.
Now, I don't know about this theme, but here's what seems obvious from the roles.
1) Not all detectives are actually civvies, because right in the description they have anti-L leanings, and at least one of them mentions going to 'the mafia' (that's mello). Now, I don't know if the Yotsuba group are gangsters or not, and are like an actual mafia, but that was my assumption based on what the story seems to be about. If that isn't in the case, it could refer to either (or some weird ass combination?) of the two non-detective groups.
2) The detectives need all Kira's dead. Plain and simple. They also need justice to prevail. Now, that could just be flavour about what happens when the Kira's are dead, but that seems wrong, so I think for the sake of simplicity, we can treat their win conditions as all Kira's being dead and ???, probably dependent on the role and not as a whole group (since as a group they are conflicted).
3) We have no idea what the Yotsuba's need to do to win. We do know they don't have BTSC to start, and we do know Higuchi (the leader of the 'team' I guess) is the third kira (suggesting to me the first and second kira need to die or some chain of events need to occur for them to lose the NK and it to go to Higuchi). Once Higuchi has a death note (and is therefore able to start killing) they all get to start giving input for how they want to kill. After one kill, one role gets a call. After 2, another role brings a bunch of the other people in the group together (that would seem to suggest BTSC to me). Now, one of those 4 vanilla looking roles isn't even mentioned as being invited to the secret meeting, so either that would make sense as the caller, or the role that was added to the game when we went from 26 to 27 (and probably just needs to be added to the invite).
Now, I still think they're a mafia team. The description to me sounds like they have a unified win condition, and 4 roles have no description or secrets, so I would assume they have none. Add to that the fact that they can kill, and the method for BTSC while not clear cut seems reasonably easy to puzzle out. The one thing I am thinking, is that since Higuchi is just a tool of Kira #1, maybe that's some sort of traitor role, and at some point (or if conditions are met) maybe the conditions of all those roles change (or maybe they don't even have any to start, and learn them down the line).
All that to say, someone in the Yotsuba group dies, I would count that as a win that while not as good as killing a Kira (or anyone that is part of the second sympathizer team) since the detective conditions are not as clear cut as some people would seem to like them to be. Which makes the kill priority: Kira = Kira 2 = Kira 3 = Kira X, a sympathizer is better than a yotsuba group member but a yotsuba member isn't a bad catch. Then maybe 1 or 2 detectives who it wouldn't be sad to see go, but just because they don't agree with L as a role doesn't even mean the player in the role wants him dead, so I wouldn't be happy if they died or count it as a win. Then we have the indy, and I have no idea where to place it.
4) Then lets round it out. We have Kira and the sympathizers. This seems like the really clear cut mafia team. We know they need the detectives dead, and then a utopian world order has to be started (Light hates criminals, my assumption is the Yatsuba group are gangsters, I assume Light and co need at least some of those roles dead to win).
So, to me it boils down simpler than Bioshock was, while still being unconventional.
The Detectives are civvies. Within the group are possible traitors or traitor-like roles who may just not get a say in what happens to their win conditions.
Kira and the Sympathizers are mafia.
The Yotsuba group are like solo-baddies to start I think (or at least that's how we can treat them), and maybe some of them can become part of a team of baddies, or maybe some can become indies. The Higuchi wiki link Epi posted doesn't really clear up what happens with the spoiler stuff he talked about for me to puzzle that out, but it seems like anyone who is familiar with the material should be able to clear that up well enough to set up reasonable expectations.
Then the indie. A best guess of stuff like win-with-anyone, SK, or join a team, again seems like something anyone with familiarity should be able to help us out with.
I do not think it's a good idea to start carving up civilians because of potential secret win conditions. The detective win condition and the Kira / Sympathizer win condition should be treated literally, because it's there for us to read. The Yotsuba win condition may be troublesome, but based on my understanding of their place in the canon, I would leave them alone (excepting the Kira). As for the single independent, no idea.
My major issue with this post is that you are adding win conditions to the civilians. "They also need justice to prevail" is not an objective win condition. Neither is anything about a "Utopian world order." Leave it alone. If the detectives are still alive, the Kira cannnot win.
