Harry Stephen Keeler [ENDGAME]

[Turnip Head]

And if you are right, blindfaeth, you squandered your opportunity. You should have gone hard after the owner of the will and observed what happened.

I agree. BF either needed to play this close to the best or go all in and name the person. As it stands we still have no info and BF has a giant target on his back.

[Turnip Head]

EBWOP: Close to the vest*

[S~V~S]

OK, I saw something too

This is all before BF started discussing who he suspected, the will, and why he suspected who he suspected. He got my eye right out of the gate, tbh.

So, I already have a suspicion but I am keeping to myself until day 1 to see how everything plays out.

Golden, do you see what I see?

bf, why did you ask Golden and only Golden that question?

He's my best fran in mafia.

Also we usually agree/see eye to eye.

So, I already have a suspicion but I am keeping to myself until day 1 to see how everything plays out.

Golden, do you see what I see?

As I'm reading back through... because the way you've phrased it makes me now think we are possibly seeing different things.

Mine is definitely more an idea, a category of people, than a single person. But your phrase makes it sound like a suspicion of a particular individual... and that I'm not getting.

Mine is actually two individuals. Grammar nazi

This whole section reads like buddying to me. Like BF is buddying up to Golden BIG TIME. Before the point where he started discussing his item and his suspects, all of his posts were either related to Golden, or bantering, like what do we call Sheepywolf and so forth.

Fairly early on, I dropped this into the thread:

Weds, 5:51 AM

I am intrigued by BF & Golden. Positioning themselves as a Batman & Robin of sorts right out of the gate, sticking cred right onto each other. Then, as Epi pointed out, BF did the same in another game. That is still in progress, but Golden at least was civ there.

Golden addressed this in the next post he made at 2:15:

I am intrigued by BF & Golden. Positioning themselves as a Batman & Robin of sorts right out of the gate, sticking cred right onto each other. Then, as Epi pointed out, BF did the same in another game. That is still in progress, but Golden at least was civ there.

Hey... I'm not sticking any cred into bf.

All I'm doing is saying it is normal for bf to do it, which I think you would know. I don't think it's helpful for the town to go suspecting bf based on something he would do when civ. There is a big difference between saying 'thats normal bf and i don't suspect him for it' and 'thats bf's civvie game'.

A minute later, 2:16, BF replies to Golden who had JUST replied to me, saying he was not sticking any cred on BF, and BF did not mention it AT ALL.

He never addressed it.

Later (and I will make another post later more directly addressing the whole info/Millionaire thing) after listing his suspects:

I disagree strongly with bullz statement.

I can't remember a time when the person lynched on day one didn't feel it was unfair, no matter what the reason. Day one lynches always suck.

Whats the difference between it being unfair because someone has a hunch that their item is a role hint, and it being unfair because someone sees some minutiae in the thread? I don't see one.

I don't like that it is being made some kind of moral issue. It's a host setting - either it's ok or it isn't. (and my eye is squarely on bullz for his comment).

My eye was already on Bulls and turnip head. Was this your hunch? More on this later, I'm at work. But it does in my mind seem to coincide well already.

I asked him:

Can you tell us why, BF, or are you just talking to Golden?

Linki

And then he says "Both" and lauches into his cases against Bullz & TH. He only really addressed his consistent point of addressing all of his posts to Golden when Juliets asked him a direct question.

This was the first thing that struck me; that BF was seriously buddying Golden. Then he brought up that Millionaire thing. The more I have gone over that, the less innocent it seems to me.

I want to hear what Splints thinks of this, as well as Golden. I could be reading more into this than there is. But that was what caught my eye.

[Mongoose]

Boomslang and Bullzeye are indeed two distinct players, yet I still will confuse the issues sometimes...

... Just like sometimes players will mix me up with Hedgeowl (where the heck is she by the way?)

[S~V~S]

And fwiw, I was told I have a pretty silver colored statue, lol. It did not do anything, and I was not told that it was going to do anything. Which is what they all say, apparently, but tis true for me~

Linki~ I have mixed up Hedge with Ninjajujube when Ninja had the smaller avatar.

[Epignosis]

@epi - I don't really like that I'm drawn into defending bf so much, because he could be right, but...

I, for one, am not surprised this site has such a major bias towards mafia wins if this: "I'd rather trust a man who doesn't shout what he's found." is the prevailing attitude.

I've hosted right around 25% of the games on this site. I can tell you why civilians lose a lot.

Mafia have enough of an advantage as it is. While staying within the rules, I'm a big believer in the civilians taking any advantage they have got. And I know bf is too. That's because we've both used this method on a few occasions to the benefit of the civs in the past. RM probably leant towards civ wins a little. And I think it was because we shared what little we could and be damned if the mafia could see it as well. They already had an advantage, we were just levelling it a bit.

My experience is different (and I have played on RM before the music died). Info dumpers end up getting screwed and normally don't win. I have been designing my games so that happens without intervention from me.

Anyway, I don't know llama as a host or this site's rules. All I know is that I've always been one to shout what I've found. It's why I die early a lot. But I never mind if the town wins.

Not a Genesis fan, are you?

[Mongoose]

I didn't realize RM had been KIA :/

Y'all be careful revealing your items' secrets and powers. It might be something to slowly dole out instead of give up on the first date.

[Bullzeye]

I didn't realize RM had been KIA :/

Y'all be careful revealing your items' secrets and powers. It might be something to slowly dole out instead of give up on the first date.

I don't see there being any possible downside to revealing all our secrets right now. It's not like there's a baddie team out to kill us all and looking for who might be a threat to them or anything.




(No sarcasm tags because people should be able to figure it out for themselves)

[Golden]

@SVS

Would bf buddy up to me if he was civ? Yes. I know he gets confidence and energy from us seeing eye to eye. That part is absolute truth.
Would bf buddy up to me if he is bad? Yes. Bf is constantly aware that I am also the best at ratting out his baddie game, and I think he would be particularly aware of the fact I might be able to call him out.

The thing that makes me feel most comfortable about him? Our heads actually are in a very similar space, with eyes on the same people. This does give me some confidence. Also, why put such a big target on your back so early if you are bad?
The thing that makes me feel least comfortable about him? I don't like that I feel this drawn in to defending him so vehemently so early.

His posts still seem pretty - just normal bf to me. He isn't making me ping.

@epi - only when Phil Collins is in a gorilla suit. Hang on, I might be getting things confused there...

[Dom]

I disagree strongly with bullz statement.

I can't remember a time when the person lynched on day one didn't feel it was unfair, no matter what the reason. Day one lynches always suck.

Whats the difference between it being unfair because someone has a hunch that their item is a role hint, and it being unfair because someone sees some minutiae in the thread? I don't see one.

I don't like that it is being made some kind of moral issue. It's a host setting - either it's ok or it isn't. (and my eye is squarely on bullz for his comment).

You did not play GOC14 nor did you play Doctor Who.
You do not know the problem this site has with role outing.
As a trend, role outing has become quite vogue. It has ruined three games outright for me at this point. Please, let's not make it a fourth.

BF did not role out. BF has not broken any rules. I think BF is walking the line. I don't think BF played his cards smartly.

Why is your eye not also on Dom for agreeing with me? It's very rare for he and I to agree on anything actually. I've half a mind to check Hell hasn't frozen over.

I pose this question to both Golden and BF. Both have completely ignored me and I'm curious as to why.

Yes but my point is, the two people I think are suspicious PRIOR to my item are acting in a way I would expect them to if they were worried about me being correct, namely, that I know the identity of their teammate. Bullz and TH can certainly defend against this, don't you agree?

No. I don't.
We have no proof that your original suspect-- whom you have yet to reveal-- is bad. Thus, their baddness is contingent on the result of that lynch.

You are putting the cart before the horse.

I can see now what I saw on Day 0 was not the same as BF. What I saw was this:

Hey folks! Just popping in, haven't read anything yet, and very likely won't have the chance until tomorrow evening after my microeconomic theory seminar midterm, between studying for that and dealing with Death Note.

Yay game! See you soon!

Not at all suspicious.

Thanks, you too, Zomba!

Guess I better pick an item while I'm here. I would have picked the stock certificate, but it seems my fellow accountant beat me to that option. I'll go with the clock.

Now will be back tomorrow to read posts and such!

Until this. For someone who hasn't read anything yet looks like he knew to comeback, pick an item, and be the first to vote on that item. Did his BTSC let him know?

That's what I saw on Day 0.

They are also only six minutes apart-- good catch BR!

And if you are right, blindfaeth, you squandered your opportunity. You should have gone hard after the owner of the will and observed what happened.

This.

[Epignosis]

@SVS

Would bf buddy up to me if he was civ? Yes. I know he gets confidence and energy from us seeing eye to eye. That part is absolute truth.
Would bf buddy up to me if he is bad? Yes. Bf is constantly aware that I am also the best at ratting out his baddie game, and I think he would be particularly aware of the fact I might be able to call him out.

The thing that makes me feel most comfortable about him? Our heads actually are in a very similar space, with eyes on the same people. This does give me some confidence.

Although I was hoping the will would be a rezz for you if you died

That's a...thing to say on Day 1.

Also, why put such a big target on your back so early if you are bad?

...because you won't get killed if your team controls the kill?

The thing that makes me feel least comfortable about him? I don't like that I feel this drawn in to defending him so vehemently so early.

Although I was hoping the will would be a rezz for you if you died

^You said that on your own accord.

[LizKeen]

So are the celestial a separate team? Mafia? If so I'm not really keen on blindly following bf as he could be trying to gain more power for them if he is in fact not mafia. On the other hand if he's on to something about a mafia I'm not opposed to giving some thought to who he thinks may be. I'd feel a little more comfortable about voting a baddie who perhaps wouldn't give an unconfirmed civvie more power though.

[blindfaeth]

Other than blindfaeth, I don't think anyone got anything valuable.

...right?

I mean, no one is going to come in here saying "Wowee, I got a magic crystal that shows me who the bad guys are!"

...right?

I mean, no one wants to be killed for their shit.

...right?

So I'm astonished at the risk blindfaeth has chosen to take. What astonishes me more is that he thinks he has three of five pegged on Day 1 due to a tenuous assumption on his part: That the owner of the will is the millionaire anarchist (would an anarchist even have a will? I don't know). This has been called "info" and "potential info." It is neither. It's an assumption. Knowing how much llama loves loves loves assumptions, it's naive to believe the owner of the will is most likely evil and that you can peg that person's teammates on Day 1.

And if you are right, blindfaeth, you squandered your opportunity. You should have gone hard after the owner of the will and observed what happened.

That is your opinion. Info is a friend of the civs. Have you seen how items swap hands on this game? Whoever performs a NK steals items their target is holding. The baddies will end up with most of the items,
So this info needs to be available to the general public imo

[Epignosis]

And you best sleep with one eye open.

[blindfaeth]

SVS, I always buddy with golden. He is my bestie, get over it. Why does the fact I ignored your comment bothering you? I didn't feel the need to address it.

[ShēpInWolfsClothing]

@epi - I don't really like that I'm drawn into defending bf so much, because he could be right, but...

I, for one, am not surprised this site has such a major bias towards mafia wins if this: "I'd rather trust a man who doesn't shout what he's found." is the prevailing attitude.

Mafia have enough of an advantage as it is. While staying within the rules, I'm a big believer in the civilians taking any advantage they have got. And I know bf is too. That's because we've both used this method on a few occasions to the benefit of the civs in the past. RM probably leant towards civ wins a little. And I think it was because we shared what little we could and be damned if the mafia could see it as well. They already had an advantage, we were just levelling it a bit.

Anyway, I don't know llama as a host or this site's rules. All I know is that I've always been one to shout what I've found. It's why I die early a lot. But I never mind if the town wins.

My only concern with this is that the only way to share info with the towb, is to also share it with the mafia. How else is o e supposed to share information?

[blindfaeth]

And you best sleep with one eye open.

LOL is that a threat?

[blindfaeth]

Dom, I was not suspicious of you because I was taking my first suspicion and overlapping it with who was worried about my item. Which turned out to be them both IMO.

[Epignosis]

And you best sleep with one eye open.

LOL is that a threat?

A threat?

You know what an idiom is, right?

That would have better with at the end but looks like I too blew a great opportunity.

[blindfaeth]

I can see now what I saw on Day 0 was not the same as BF. What I saw was this:

Hey folks! Just popping in, haven't read anything yet, and very likely won't have the chance until tomorrow evening after my microeconomic theory seminar midterm, between studying for that and dealing with Death Note.

Yay game! See you soon!

Not at all suspicious.

Thanks, you too, Zomba!

Guess I better pick an item while I'm here. I would have picked the stock certificate, but it seems my fellow accountant beat me to that option. I'll go with the clock.

Now will be back tomorrow to read posts and such!

Until this. For someone who hasn't read anything yet looks like he knew to comeback, pick an item, and be the first to vote on that item. Did his BTSC let him know?

That's what I saw on Day 0.

FWIW I think this was a great post, Br.

[Bullzeye]

Dom, I was not suspicious of you because I was taking my first suspicion and overlapping it with who was worried about my item. Which turned out to be them both IMO.

Seriously, point out where I'm "worried" as opposed to just addressing comments aimed at me. I'm not worried. I don't care about your suspicion of me, it's based on nothing. Just because you say I'm worried doesn't make it true.

[blindfaeth]

Well here is another opportunity for you. Who are your baddie teammates? :P

Linki, K.

[blindfaeth]

No, not role outing. It's an educated guess. All I know is whose will I have and that I get a lot of money when they die. Lots of money sounds like a millionaire to me.

Well if I were that person - regardless of the accuracy of your guess - I would certainly feel outed/infodumped against/unfairly treated.

I start talking about my item. You post this after almost 18 hours of silence to start spreading doubt about how bad an idea this is. Oh and by the way, I didn't address you, you posted your opinion of your own Accord.

Next points coming, on phone and can't properly quote.

[Epignosis]

Well here is another opportunity for you. Who are your baddie teammates? :P

Linki, K.

To whom is this post addressed?

[blindfaeth]

I disagree strongly with bullz statement.

I can't remember a time when the person lynched on day one didn't feel it was unfair, no matter what the reason. Day one lynches always suck.

Whats the difference between it being unfair because someone has a hunch that their item is a role hint, and it being unfair because someone sees some minutiae in the thread? I don't see one.

I don't like that it is being made some kind of moral issue. It's a host setting - either it's ok or it isn't. (and my eye is squarely on bullz for his comment).

You are obviously unfamiliar with my attitude towards infodumping. Read the fury in my late posts in the Monty Python game, or the comment I made in the thread about how to handle infodumping. I have a fiery, passionate hatred of info in all its forms. Boogs is one of my all time favourite people to play with, I think he's a brilliant person and a great laugh, but I tore him to shreds for outing me and at the time I was literally that angry. Good or bad, I will never be okay with following info to get someone lynched. It just isn't how I play. I don't care about fighting against it here, it doesn't affect me, but knowing how I would feel in the shoes of whoever BF's will is attached to, I will not be following it and I will not have my disapproval silenced by fear of suspicion. I will happily admit my view of infodumping is very strict but that's just me.

Why is your eye not also on Dom for agreeing with me? It's very rare for he and I to agree on anything actually. I've half a mind to check Hell hasn't frozen over.

Again, not in response to me. Trying to discourage my infodumped that isn't an infodump. Oh and btw, the game you're referring to with boogs. I talked to him and he said you were bad that game.

[blindfaeth]

I'm a little wary of the name on the will anyways. If it is that directly tied into a role it doesn't really seem fair for that player, and I'm not sure the host would do that

This is a good point. I also don't see that we have any particular reason to believe BF as of yet.

Also not in response to me. So you're lying. Anyway, this is basically saying "don't listen to bf because I don't want him to identify my teammate. You have no reason to believe him, let me say this to discourage you from believing him!"

Kthxbye.

[Epignosis]

Am I suddenly invisible?

[ShēpInWolfsClothing]

@LongCon

Oh, never mind - BR just reminded me what it stands for! Don't tell anyone, it's a good secret!

Just moments before this, you asked what svs stands for. Then this. What form of communication did BR use to remind you?

[S~V~S]

SVS, I always buddy with golden. He is my bestie, get over it. Why does the fact I ignored your comment bothering you? I didn't feel the need to address it.

Really? We are both playing Mafia, right? Golden felt the need to address it, in his first post after I said it. You only addressed the point being made when Juliets asked you a direct question. That strikes me as suspicious, much more so that calling someone by the similar sounding name of someone not even playing this game.

Think of it like this; you know how you are using Bullz reaction to your suspicions against him as part of the suspicion in and of itself? Well, that's how I feel about your ignoring this post, especially when Golden replied to it, mentioning your name and saying he was not giving you cred A MINUTE BEFORE YOU POSTED, and you still ignored it.

My next point about you is the fact that when you start to discuss your info (and yes, info is the civvies friend. Using it in a way that does not ruin someone elses game is good sportmanship. I am NOT saying you did this; you have not. You have not revealed a name. The way to do it is to not say, "I have info". It is to use the thread to lynch your suspect) you automatically went to the baddie role. Oliver Oliver comes before Reed Bardeen (and you obviously read the role descriptions; you called Reed the Millionaire, not by his name). You picked TH out for making a voting mistake, when imo someone with BTS would be less likely to make a mistake of that nature.

Then when several instances of why you could be wrong about the millionaire are pointed out, you say:

That person can also be Oliver Oliver right?

I suppose so. BR also made a good point, it could be someone who picked one of the "valuable" items. It could be completely random. I'm just following my gut, and my gut smells something fishy

And your reply to Bullz defenses?

So why are you so worried about it then? Day one is almost always a civ lynch. Is this not any worse than random?

Linki, Sheepy, they're married.

[Epignosis]

@LongCon

Oh, never mind - BR just reminded me what it stands for! Don't tell anyone, it's a good secret!

Just moments before this, you asked what svs stands for. Then this. What form of communication did BR use to remind you?

Carrier pigeon.

It stopped by my house on the way and shat in my tomatoes.

[ShēpInWolfsClothing]

@LongCon

Oh, never mind - BR just reminded me what it stands for! Don't tell anyone, it's a good secret!

Just moments before this, you asked what svs stands for. Then this. What form of communication did BR use to remind you?

Carrier pigeon.

It stopped by my house on the way and shat in my tomatoes.

I heard this produces a dramatic increase in flavor.

[S~V~S]

I am not voting for you now, BF, and am not sure that I even will. It's early, and it's Day One. We are talking about what has caught our eye, and this is what has caught mine.

[Bullzeye]

No, not role outing. It's an educated guess. All I know is whose will I have and that I get a lot of money when they die. Lots of money sounds like a millionaire to me.

Well if I were that person - regardless of the accuracy of your guess - I would certainly feel outed/infodumped against/unfairly treated.

I start talking about my item. You post this after almost 18 hours of silence to start spreading doubt about how bad an idea this is. Oh and by the way, I didn't address you, you posted your opinion of your own Accord.

Next points coming, on phone and can't properly quote.

Am I not allowed to post my own opinion of my own accord now? If you must know, my 18 hours of silence were as follows: Sleeping, attending a callout, going back to sleep because I'd lost 2 hours, waking up, having breakfast, going to the library, going to lectures, going back to the library because my life is just that exciting, eating. It's not like I was hiding from the game or anything. People go about their lives and then come back to mafia when they have the time. Just so happened I came at an opportune time to express my opinion that I don't think it's a great move. Should I have kept quiet because I didn't agree? When you posted, surely you wanted people's opinions? Are dissenting opinions not allowed?


Linki - ugh. Yes I was bad in the Python game. Never said I wasn't so don't imply that I did. As a matter of fact I clearly said that he outed me. I was furious. I was prepared to NK him day 1 for the rest of eternity. It ruined the game for me to the point that I don't even care that I won, I may as well have lost because all the work I put in was for nothing. That's one of many reasons why I hate infodumping. In my opinion, revealing what you think someone's role is based on info only you are privy to is infodumping. I am firmly against infodumping in all forms and will not be scared into changing my view just because some people might make me out to be bad for not wanting to follow it. Me having been bad in Python does not justify in any way Boogs' outing me. Nor does Dom having been bad in the games he got outed in justify the actions of the people who outed him.

That post wasn't in response to you, no. It was in response to someone calling me suspicious because of my response to you. Don't pretend it came out of nowhere.

Also not in response to me. So you're lying. Anyway, this is basically saying "don't listen to bf because I don't want him to identify my teammate. You have no reason to believe him, let me say this to discourage you from believing him!"

So are you saying there is a valid reason to trust you? Please, point it out. I'd hate to have missed this obvious piece of evidence. Good of you to cherry pick all the quotes that aren't related to our conversation where you accused me of being worried about you. I'm still not.

[Golden]

@SVS

Would bf buddy up to me if he was civ? Yes. I know he gets confidence and energy from us seeing eye to eye. That part is absolute truth.
Would bf buddy up to me if he is bad? Yes. Bf is constantly aware that I am also the best at ratting out his baddie game, and I think he would be particularly aware of the fact I might be able to call him out.

The thing that makes me feel most comfortable about him? Our heads actually are in a very similar space, with eyes on the same people. This does give me some confidence.

Although I was hoping the will would be a rezz for you if you died

That's a...thing to say on Day 1.

Also, why put such a big target on your back so early if you are bad?

...because you won't get killed if your team controls the kill?

The thing that makes me feel least comfortable about him? I don't like that I feel this drawn in to defending him so vehemently so early.

Although I was hoping the will would be a rezz for you if you died

^You said that on your own accord.

Epi - 1) I recognise saying something like 'I was hoping it would be a rezz if you died' is kinda sus lol. Stupid, you might say. But you have to know the history bf and I have. We really are mafia best buds. It's not 'I hoped you had it regardless of your alignment', and I don't think it would reasonably be taken that way by people who know the relationship bf and I have well over the course of many games. We are always inclined to start a game from a position of trust.

2) Are you trying to tell me bf isn't in the firing line for a lynch today? That's the target I was talking about. He knew he was risking having people come down hard on him... especially if he was on the money, when it would be guaranteed.

3) I do defend bf of my own accord. But I also can see myself objectively enough to recognise that bf could rely on me doing so, and could use it as a tactic to take me down with him if he was bad.

[Dom]

SVS, I always buddy with golden. He is my bestie, get over it. Why does the fact I ignored your comment bothering you? I didn't feel the need to address it.

What if Golden is bad?
What if you are bad?

Golden does not seem to have the same blind faith ( ) in you. Does that bother you?

Dom, I was not suspicious of you because I was taking my first suspicion and overlapping it with who was worried about my item. Which turned out to be them both IMO.

Why did you not react whatsoever to my distrust of you?
Why are you going after only these two?


Golden-- care to answer my question from before?

[Golden]

Why is your eye not also on Dom for agreeing with me? It's very rare for he and I to agree on anything actually. I've half a mind to check Hell hasn't frozen over.

I pose this question to both Golden and BF. Both have completely ignored me and I'm curious as to why.

I did answer this. I was running to go to work and you were just a linki on my screen. Plus, frankly, all you did was say 'you agree', what was there to respond to?

Plus, I already had my eye on bullz and epi - as I mentioned earlier - because I thought the key/safe might be a baddie combination. I did not have my eye on you already. Given I had only once briefly mentioned epi in passing... here:

Nobody has earned any trust from anyone yet as far as I can see.

I agree with this.

Anyway, bf, you didn't quite see what I saw, but it could be linked. My idea is that the baddies were knowingly after specific items. For instance - the key + safe - and my two that I already had eyes on were bullz and epi. I didn't want to say it in particular because I wanted to see if either of them voted for the other first and then pushed a case to lynch them. But given we are already going down this route, I may as well just say that I would consider any vote by bullz or epi against the other suspicious.

But also they could be a team and already be happy to have both items.

In that sense, I could see TH being on that team as well - although I'm not sure that a baddie team would be very happy to see that much attention drawn to an agenda if they had one. I did notice the 'Boomslang' thing as well because I remember the STV slip, which I think was the game before I first started playing. I'll think about it.

On that note, another thing the key might be able to help with is the baddie's vault, and they might have also been after papers to stick in the vault...

linki - bullzeye - I agree that the info could well be wrong. Ultimately I think this is simply a matter of playstyle. Bf and I play similar games as we have influenced each others mafia game a lot. BF just did exactly what I would do, so I find it easy to come from his perspective on this one. I'm not saying it's without risk... and honestly it would suck for the person lynched good or bad. But it's gonna suck to be the person lynched on day one anyway, is all I'm saying.

Then it interests me that epi has come out swinging against me.

Actually, Bullz reactions have pretty much come across as genuine to me and I'm feeling much more relaxed about him now.

linki - dom, my goodness. Patience, Iago, patience.

[Dom]

:hmm:

[Mongoose]

I didn't realize RM had been KIA :/

Y'all be careful revealing your items' secrets and powers. It might be something to slowly dole out instead of give up on the first date.

I don't see there being any possible downside to revealing all our secrets right now. It's not like there's a baddie team out to kill us all and looking for who might be a threat to them or anything.
(No sarcasm tags because people should be able to figure it out for themselves)

That's my point, and too much potential to be civ-outty. It'll clear him/her up for the other civs, who will lay off the suspicion, but a nice target to boot.

[Mongoose]

I have no idea how to read all these new (and "new") people. I'll just assume you are all good. Seems legit.

[Golden]

I guess what I'm saying is - I think bf's move was one he would make as a civilian.

No, I don't have 'blind faith' and I'd be stupid too...

But for the most part I think the case against him is wrong. SVS's case was thoughtful and I thought Dom's questions were quite probative. Bullzeye I can read as defending himself. But I don't know where Epi is coming from. And, as Epi is WELL aware from Roger Rabbit, I'm wary of those whose first response mechanism is to discredit. Which is exactly what it looks like he is trying to do to both me and bf.

It's interesting how he moved from this:

And I confirmed that just now. blindfaeth's first post in my current game was toward Golden.

knowing that we work this way in a game where he knows both of our affiliations, and I believe he knows we are both civ (certainly I was a known civ and bf appears to be one)...

To going after both of us.

[Golden]

What are you thinking Dom?

And before you brush it off, remember... you were demanding answers to your questions, so I expect the same back.

[rabbit8]

Speaking of reading the rules. It's a shame more of you didn't vote for "Nothing."

Only the first person to vote for each item will receive it.

I should get something for my nothing, no?

[Epignosis]

@SVS

Would bf buddy up to me if he was civ? Yes. I know he gets confidence and energy from us seeing eye to eye. That part is absolute truth.
Would bf buddy up to me if he is bad? Yes. Bf is constantly aware that I am also the best at ratting out his baddie game, and I think he would be particularly aware of the fact I might be able to call him out.

The thing that makes me feel most comfortable about him? Our heads actually are in a very similar space, with eyes on the same people. This does give me some confidence.

Although I was hoping the will would be a rezz for you if you died

That's a...thing to say on Day 1.

Also, why put such a big target on your back so early if you are bad?

...because you won't get killed if your team controls the kill?

The thing that makes me feel least comfortable about him? I don't like that I feel this drawn in to defending him so vehemently so early.

Although I was hoping the will would be a rezz for you if you died

^You said that on your own accord.

Epi - 1) I recognise saying something like 'I was hoping it would be a rezz if you died' is kinda sus lol. Stupid, you might say. But you have to know the history bf and I have. We really are mafia best buds. It's not 'I hoped you had it regardless of your alignment', and I don't think it would reasonably be taken that way by people who know the relationship bf and I have well over the course of many games. We are always inclined to start a game from a position of trust.

Tell you a story. Takes place in the future.

In a few days, somebody is going to come around asking my opinion on a little lady named Elohcin. That's somebody who had the bad judgment to marry me once upon a time. That somebody will cite how good I am at reading her and how I've never been wrong or whatever. Even though I said I won't be offering a husbandly analysis of her henceforth, someone will ask. Here's the thing- I used what I was good at, and eventually Elohcin and I were bad together. That time came in the Game of Champions 2013. We lost like drowned rats (due to grave misfortune and no faults of our own), but we were able to exploit nearly a year of history to our advantage for quite a while.

And even though we used that as teammates, I still get asked to analyze her. Do you see where I'm going with this? Previous relationships in previous games mean little to me. Words now mean more.

2) Are you trying to tell me bf isn't in the firing line for a lynch today? That's the target I was talking about. He knew he was risking having people come down hard on him... especially if he was on the money, when it would be guaranteed.

I'm trying to tell you he's Night fodder if he's good. When he said what he said, he said, "Kill me please." Terrible judgment on his part.

3) I do defend bf of my own accord. But I also can see myself objectively enough to recognise that bf could rely on me doing so, and could use it as a tactic to take me down with him if he was bad.

Perhaps.

[Golden]

It's fair not to trust my words or bfs words about each other, and ignore them as having any value in deciding whether one or both of us is good or bad. I'm not asking you to trust me that bf is good.

However - you were not saying 'I'm not taking it into account'... you were actively discrediting both of us on the basis we are buddying up...

And you are really mixing up your words now...

Also, why put such a big target on your back so early if you are bad?

...because you won't get killed if your team controls the kill?

2) Are you trying to tell me bf isn't in the firing line for a lynch today? That's the target I was talking about. He knew he was risking having people come down hard on him... especially if he was on the money, when it would be guaranteed.

I'm trying to tell you he's Night fodder if he's good. When he said what he said, he said, "Kill me please." Terrible judgment on his part.

I asked you why he would put a big target on his back. Your first response was essentially 'he didn't'... your second was 'he did'. Which is it? Frankly, I think he did take a massive risk of being lynched... good or bad... do you agree with that?

[rabbit8]

@SVS

Would bf buddy up to me if he was civ? Yes. I know he gets confidence and energy from us seeing eye to eye. That part is absolute truth.
Would bf buddy up to me if he is bad? Yes. Bf is constantly aware that I am also the best at ratting out his baddie game, and I think he would be particularly aware of the fact I might be able to call him out.

The thing that makes me feel most comfortable about him? Our heads actually are in a very similar space, with eyes on the same people. This does give me some confidence. Also, why put such a big target on your back so early if you are bad?
The thing that makes me feel least comfortable about him? I don't like that I feel this drawn in to defending him so vehemently so early.

His posts still seem pretty - just normal bf to me. He isn't making me ping.

@epi - only when Phil Collins is in a gorilla suit. Hang on, I might be getting things confused there...

I purposely put a target on myself early and often. I will this game when I get a chance. It's helpful to baddie and civvie games. Why would you think it's not?

[Golden]

Also, you should understand this about me... and I think you do, from Roger Rabbit. I do not fear death. I fear only my team losing. I play for the team to win. Sometimes that means doing things that you might call 'terrible judgement'... that get me killed.

Your idea of 'terrible judgement' is not an objective fact. It's just a perspective on the game. My perspective is different. If I'm civ, I take whatever leaps I need to get my team the win. I don't claim that makes me a great player. I just can't play any other way. Bf plays a lot like me. Take that whatever way you like.

linki @rabbit - ugh, you see? This is what I mean about being drawn in to a massive defence of bf. You and bf are two very different people.

[Epignosis]

It's fair not to trust my words or bfs words about each other, and ignore them as having any value in deciding whether one or both of us is good or bad. I'm not asking you to trust me that bf is good.

However - you were not saying 'I'm not taking it into account'... you were actively discrediting both of us on the basis we are buddying up...

And you are really mixing up your words now...

Also, why put such a big target on your back so early if you are bad?

...because you won't get killed if your team controls the kill?

2) Are you trying to tell me bf isn't in the firing line for a lynch today? That's the target I was talking about. He knew he was risking having people come down hard on him... especially if he was on the money, when it would be guaranteed.

I'm trying to tell you he's Night fodder if he's good. When he said what he said, he said, "Kill me please." Terrible judgment on his part.

I asked you why he would put a big target on his back. Your first response was essentially 'he didn't'... your second was 'he did'. Which is it? Frankly, I think he did take a massive risk of being lynched... good or bad... do you agree with that?

No sir. I said what I meant: If BF is bad, saying what he did carries no penalty. This is not a two-Mafia set. It's a one-Mafia set. If BF is good, then he's good as fucked. In the latter case, he "dun goofed."

Just speaking as a game-maker, one who has had several conversations with thellama73, your host (sometimes in person over beers).

[Golden]

If BF is bad, saying what he said carries the penalty that he is being hounded by several people who look very likely to vote for him...

How is that no penalty??? And bf certainly isn't dumb enough to think he would get no heat for it.

[rabbit8]

Can we not reference on going games? Seems rude and I would be pissed if I was hosteing said game. Plus we don't know how that game will turn out yet.

[Epignosis]

If BF is bad, saying what he said carries the penalty that he is being hounded by several people who look very likely to vote for him...

How is that no penalty??? And bf certainly isn't dumb enough to think he would get no heat for it.

I have no intention of voting for him. If he's bad, he'll live a while. If he's good, he'll probably die soon. That's the fate of loose lips around here.

And as I said, his actions have revealed something to me. Unfortunately I cannot pursue that at this time.