Recruitment Mafia IV: Dawn of the Clans (End Game)

[Dom]

I feel uneasy about voting Golden after his meltdown post, but... I still suspect him.

[Golden]

Thank you, Scotty. Saves me from getting into another semantics argument.

It's not a semantics argument, Testy Tessa. I honestly do not understand the point you were trying to make. Don't be so fighty all the time, friend! We're not all out to get you.

I'm just disappointed you ignored my bullsuit.

The point I'm trying to make is that if I'm lynched, everyone will see they are wrong about me being bad. I then come into any rezz with a clean sheet. Sure, I might take suspicion of being rezzed by a baddie team, but thats a new fight without the previous accumulated baggage, no-one is going to be claiming I'm bad because of the epi move or because I'm stylistically different from their perceived golden-meta.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Ok, looking at the exchange between JJJ and Scotty I find myself agreeing more with Scotty and not really grokking JJJ's reasons for suspecting him. Most of what Scotty has posted, from what I see, strikes me as eminently reasonable. He brings up and in fact votes for aapje with quite good reasoning.

I can understand that. Truth be told I don't even feel much conviction for my prior stated suspicion of Scotty. I experienced what I thought was a significant ping when I was reviewing the thread at work, but when I came home to talk about it I felt a little less confident. Moreover some of Scotty's best content in this game has been his most recent. I'm not really feeling him as a great vote anymore.

I do like that you assessed our discussion and seemingly tried to grasp both sides of it nutella.

[Golden]

How do you know when the recruits happened? I would imagine they happened on Day 0.

I think they happened when the host said they happened. That may have been the end of day zero, I thought it was the end of day one.

[aapje]

Here is the full response TH made:

You're right, it wasn't a very civvie minded thing to say. It was a neutral thing to say.

And I don't want to be recruited yet because I like keeping my options open. I played RM I and III, and this is the first time I've made it past Night 0 without a team. It's quite liberating. Team Neutral 4 Life yo.

A reply which made sense to me. As you have already noticed, I am not yet in baddie hunting mode. I'm sure I will get around to it, if I had to guess I'd say somewhere after the weekend. As for now I'd rather get rid of some non-contributors.

This comes off as baddie to me because you're still making compromises like it's Day 1, but it is not. There are ample posts in this thread so far that could give you info to baddie-hunt. The fact that you are just openly choosing not to baddie hunt is troubling to me.

Our strategies are very different, and you could just come back and say as such and move on. But in your strategy, you're picking off people that talk very little. That is not only the easiest fallback option if you're bad, but also the longer we wait to look for scum, the more scum will be recruited. I think you understand that reasoning, and are just choosing to ignore it. It doesn't make sense to me if you are good.

I honestly don't understand your reasoning, how will it lead to more baddies being recruited? Someone correct me if I am wrong but didn't the baddie teams in past games just grew until they reach 5 or 6 members and then they stop recruiting.
Also I didn't just point out 2 people who are not posting a lot, I'd be hard pressed to say if they are even playing the game. If I had the power to modkill or replace them I would do it in a heartbeat. No(t a lot of) offence meant but it just annoys me greatly how some people always hang on without participating at all.

I would normally be concerned if aapje was already recruited by the civ leaders, because then I wouldn't vote for him. But his gameplay thus far isn't giving me qualms about that being the case yet.

aapje,
besides from low posters
hypoteticall case, you join the good side will you look for baddies? or still playing more like a neutral?

Like I said, I will likely start hunting some baddies after the weekend, or maybe on Friday if I have time then, the reason being I will probably not have the time tomorrow or during the weekend. If I were a civvie I wouldn't be hunting baddies at this point. At least not publicly. I'd rather not have a massive target on my back.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I feel uneasy about voting Golden after his meltdown post, but... I still suspect him.

Why does his "meltdown" post give you pause?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Not mean.Manipulative - yes. Pushy - yes.

It was definitely pushy, I readily grant that. I am kind of a pushy player. I try to get more out of people.

Some have asserted it was manipulative of me. To that I'd ask this question: if my motivation wasn't what I claimed it was (to generate information that would help read Bass and potentially other players if he flipped bad), then what was it?

Also: do you suspect me Roxy? This post would imply it but it doesn't explicitly state a stance.

[Sorsha]

I see that golden is heading out and might not be back much but I have a question or two. Anyone else can weigh in on the answer as well. I have been away from mafia for a while and don't know/can't remember all the player dynamics.

First of all I'm of the mind that golden is not on the team that killed epi night one. I know golden still claims responsibility like that team is going to do his bidding for him but I'd think their motive was more to frame him. Anyone in particular come to mind as one who would do that?

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Vote Metalmarsh89

His content has taken a rather steep dive over the last couple of real-time days. I'd like for him to say why.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I see that golden is heading out and might not be back much but I have a question or two. Anyone else can weigh in on the answer as well. I have been away from mafia for a while and don't know/can't remember all the player dynamics.

First of all I'm of the mind that golden is not on the team that killed epi night one. I know golden still claims responsibility like that team is going to do his bidding for him but I'd think their motive was more to frame him. Anyone in particular come to mind as one who would do that?

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

I honestly don't know if there's a real way to answer this question, honestly. I suppose some of the more experience Syndicateers around here might have some insight, but it'd all strike me as very speculative. For example, I actually pulled a very similar maneuver to what Golden claims to have done here in Broadway Mafia. Epignosis was behaving in a way that I felt was distinctly against town interests, and I made it very clear that I wanted him dead. Moments later the night ended and he was dead -- an obvious attempt to frame me.

The guilty party there was fingersplints and DFaraday. The former is not playing this game and the latter is barely playing this game. My point is that you could probably select a name at random to answer this question and it'd probably be nearly as likely to be correct as anyone's educated guesses would be.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

You guys see that double "honestly" in the first sentence? Even I am embarrassed about that adverb usage.

[Scotty]

You guys see that double "honestly" in the first sentence? Even I am embarrassed about that adverb usage.

Indubitably.

[Golden]

I see that golden is heading out and might not be back much but I have a question or two. Anyone else can weigh in on the answer as well. I have been away from mafia for a while and don't know/can't remember all the player dynamics.

First of all I'm of the mind that golden is not on the team that killed epi night one. I know golden still claims responsibility like that team is going to do his bidding for him but I'd think their motive was more to frame him. Anyone in particular come to mind as one who would do that?

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

I do not think that this team is going to do my bidding for me.

I asked them to kill DH for the lolz, because of how ridiculous it is to presume they would.

(The whole point of saying I was trying to bait an epi kill, to start with, was just me being honest about my intentions - NOT to claim absolute credit that I must have swayed the baddies and to brag about it. I've said this a few times, but I think it gets lost. I wasn't expecting it to definitely work, I just kind of thought it might, and when it did my immediate reaction is to share.)

[Golden]

You guys see that double "honestly" in the first sentence? Even I am embarrassed about that adverb usage.

Using the word 'honestly' is my biggest verbal tic. It's magnified considerably in mafia. I've spent lots of time deleting it in this game, because I'm already taking heat for how honest I'm claiming to be!

[Sorsha]

Golden the point I was trying to get was if someone were setting you up who do you think it is?

[Dom]

How do you know when the recruits happened? I would imagine they happened on Day 0.

I think they happened when the host said they happened. That may have been the end of day zero, I thought it was the end of day one.

I thought they said they happened earlier.

I feel uneasy about voting Golden after his meltdown post, but... I still suspect him.

Why does his "meltdown" post give you pause?

Because that post read sincerely to me.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm leaving my vote where it is for now, but I'm open to hearing input from people who have played more with unfurl than I have. I would prefer to get a baddie than a neutral personally. They aren't bad lynches but they aren't good ones either.

I have played with unfurl exactly zero times, but I think that might give me a uniquely advantageous perspective (of course people who have played with her often should comment too). I don't have to be concerned with meta when I read her and content can be assessed intuitively at face value. Here's what I see: unfurl is the current best example of the low-hanging fruit in this game, in my opinion. By that I mean she is one of the players that the baddie-aligned teams are counting on as a lynch, and certainly not one they are counting on as a team mate.

That's really the whole matter, isn't it? For all the things you've identified that bother you about unfurl, you're still reduced to those two questions:

1.) Was unfurl recruited by a baddie team?

2.) Is unfurl a baddie recruiter?

If I take her content at face value, my intuition tells me that the answer to #1 is a resounding NO. Unfurl's style was met with criticism quite early in this game, and she has always been at least a backburner suspect for a number of players. Baddie recruiters are certainly paying attention to that, and they're not going to take someone on with a lot of baggage. Of course we can play WIFOM and wonder aloud "well maybe that's what they want us to think!", but I don't think that's logical.

Would you agree with that assessment, Spacedaisy? If not, please state your own thought process.

If you do agree, or at least you see my point as valid, then you're left with #2. Is unfurl one of the two baddie recruiters? Maybe. I think her post history is at least compatible with what I would expect from some baddies in more typical setups. I wouldn't say it screams recruiter at me though, because one key characteristic is preventing me from confidently viewing her as suspicious. Her posts have been so extremely detached -- you and MP astutely observed as much when you noted how little she seemed to want to talk about -- that I am brought to wonder whether a recruiter agenda is actually present at all. Is this how most recruiters would behave? Would they really be so hesitant to even try to make a meaningful dent in even one relevant discussion? Such avoidance is equivalent to the total absence of manipulation, misdirection, or even an effort to obscure oneself.

[Dom]

Golden, where did the hosts indicate that?

[Golden]

Golden the point I was trying to get was if someone were setting you up who do you think it is?

I think rey is the most likely. Particularly because the starting points for his suspicion against me (especially on day 2) have been a big stretch to see them as legitimate pings, and also because he himself claimed you should be looking at motivations not words/actions to find baddies, but when I ask him to explain why a baddie would say the things he has claimed are suspicious, he has never been able to come up with any explanation (or has chosen not to). I didn't think DH was very likely before yesterday, but the conversation from yesterday has me seeing him as a possibility too. I find it hard to buy that he was legitimately scared of me, but also its just such a strange thing to make a big deal out of. Like, even if I'm so scary, why would I target him specifically? Before he said that, he wasn't even really on my radar.

I have a very specific reason in mind for why I do not think it is SVS, but it isn't out of the question I'm wrong about that.

I do agree with JJ that there it could be in anyone's interests to set me up, but I would be very surprised if at least one member of that team is not one of those pushing for my lynch.

[Golden]

Golden, where did the hosts indicate that?

I don't know, dom, I didn't go back and check whether it was day zero or day one. I was just posting from what I thought was the case, but you could just as equally be right. I still haven't checked, but I will do so now.

[Sorsha]

This was from day 0:

Official Announcement

All PM's must now be directed to both hosts (the other one being Long Con) as I am leaving for work soon and he will be home.

ALL Leaders please submit a list of three players for options of your first recruit.

[Golden]

Official Announcement

All PM's must now be directed to both hosts (the other one being Long Con) as I am leaving for work soon and he will be home.

ALL Leaders please submit a list of three players for options of your first recruit.

There will be 4 by days end. We are just waiting on something before the recruits will be officially told.

You are right, it was day zero. My bad. So your theory about my tone change is completely legitimate.

But the real reason my tone shifted is that when I went toe to toe with epi, it got me thinking about the nature of the game and what it meant to be neutral in a way I hadn't until that point.

I have tried to explain that I've never played a game like this before. I'm not sure that you or some others have recognised that this comes with growing pains and I was thrown into the spotlight very early while I was still figuring the game out (frankly, I still am figuring the game out).

[JaggedJimmyJay]

One caveat for my prior response to Spacedaisy:

I keep making the mental error of reading potential recruitees for how desirable they'd be, forgetting that many of them haven't been specifically chosen by the recruiters. That would add a little more plausibility to the notion that unfurl was recruited.

[LoRab]

Going to vote now, so I don't forget and so I don't miss voting if the thread gets locked. I'm voting Golden.. As I said before, not so much because I think he's been recruited to a baddie team, but because I don't think he is playing in the best interest of the civies.

[unfurl]

Registering a vote for golden

Because I just can't be bothered any more.

Golden, I get the fustration, hey I feel fustrated at some point in every game I have played, and fustration is relative to each player
but I can never understand what drives someone to vote for themself out of it
I prefer to be modkilled if Im not having fun, but votting for myself I dont recall ever done it

There are lots of things in play. If by the time I am heading off to get on a plane, and for whatever reason people have decided not to lynch me, I will switch my vote to someone I legitimately suspect. I made that vote so that people know I'm relaxed, but also because I cannot really fight back today anyway, so I could see myself going down and not being able to do anything about it.

Right now, I feel as though being lynched will take the monkey off my back. I want to be clear though, I'm still playing the game hard. If I get lynched, I will fight for a rez. I want in on this game. I just want to get all the current suspicion out of the way so that if I was to achieve a rezz, people would know when I came back that I wasn't bad.

People are beginning to see some of the suspicion on me for what it is - like llama realising how ludicrous DH's apparent scaredness is etc, which is good. My death would also aid people in taking a good hard look at those who have pushed my lynch so hard and examining whether their motivations are true.

You tend to dizzy me out, for how much you talk, and I think you know me enough, that I dont say it in a meaner way
I tend to have more of a crazy theory about you, if you are still alive in a game, and is higher from day 5, and no ones has try to nk you and you have not been lynched, then you probably bad you tend to be more slick as abaddie imho, and you are able to lead lynches in baddies if you are good, thats ort of my parameter when it comes down to you, but it this set up, dont know how is gonna go, need to think about it probably

aapje,
besides from low posters
hypoteticall case, you join the good side will you look for baddies? or still playing more like a neutral?

Like I said, I will likely start hunting some baddies after the weekend, or maybe on Friday if I have time then, the reason being I will probably not have the time tomorrow or during the weekend. If I were a civvie I wouldn't be hunting baddies at this point. At least not publicly. I'd rather not have a massive target on my back.

Thanks for you answers aapje

[aapje]

A lot of people throwing out stuff like: they are probably (not) bad because a baddie team would absolutely/never recruit that player. I think it's not a bad idea to keep in mind that for most of the recruitments the teams will have very limited knowledge on who they are recruiting.
Sure maybe they wouldn't knowingly pick player X for their team, but that doesn't mean those players will not be recruited.

Also going to vote DP for now. Come and play dude. It's not like you are never online, you just refuse to post

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Going to vote now, so I don't forget and so I don't miss voting if the thread gets locked. I'm voting Golden.. As I said before, not so much because I think he's been recruited to a baddie team, but because I don't think he is playing in the best interest of the civies.

This is a bit of a cop out. I don't disagree that the Golden Problem has become a distraction, but that doesn't mean the solution should be to remove him from the game. If you don't think he has been recruited by a baddie and you don't think he is a baddie recruiter, then I would assert that your vote might not be in the best interest of the civilians.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

A lot of people throwing out stuff like: they are probably (not) bad because a baddie team would absolutely/never recruit that player. I think it's not a bad idea to keep in mind that for most of the recruitments the teams will have very limited knowledge on who they are recruiting.
Sure maybe they wouldn't knowingly pick player X for their team, but that doesn't mean those players will not be recruited.

You're right, I keep doing this. I wish I could program my brain to emit a small shock every time my thought process goes this direction.

[Golden]

You tend to dizzy me out, for how much you talk, and I think you know me enough, that I dont say it in a meaner way
I tend to have more of a crazy theory about you, if you are still alive in a game, and is higher from day 5, and no ones has try to nk you and you have not been lynched, then you probably bad you tend to be more slick as abaddie imho, and you are able to lead lynches in baddies if you are good, thats ort of my parameter when it comes down to you, but it this set up, dont know how is gonna go, need to think about it probably

I do know you well enough for that unfurl.

Plus, I entirely agree with your assessment that I'm more slick as a baddie, its why I'm trying to explain to people that baddie golden would not have said he was trying to bait a baddie team into killing epi. People don't have to buy my wifom, which it definitely is, but I think those who know my baddie game should know that as a baddie I'd be much more likely just to say something like "RIP epi, I think maybe the people who killed him were trying to set me up". Why invent something so convoluted?

[unfurl]

oh wait the poll ends today, I just saw it says wednsday
I thought it ended tomorrow?

[Scotty]

oh wait the poll ends today, I just saw it says wednsday
I thought it ended tomorrow?

Is the day actually ending in only 24 hours?

No, someone.. not naming names... anyways I will edited it tomorrow night to fit in with a decent time ending Thursday.

[unfurl]

thanks scotty
I did not see those post then Im in not rush of votting, I will tomorrow

[S~V~S]

I see that golden is heading out and might not be back much but I have a question or two. Anyone else can weigh in on the answer as well. I have been away from mafia for a while and don't know/can't remember all the player dynamics.

First of all I'm of the mind that golden is not on the team that killed epi night one. I know golden still claims responsibility like that team is going to do his bidding for him but I'd think their motive was more to frame him. Anyone in particular come to mind as one who would do that?

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

You have not played with Epignosis much. I think it is unlikely that it is a frame becasue if I were a baddie, an Epi/Golden thread derailment would be a major wet dream. Had Epi not died, we would have had 2 more days of nonstop, escalating sniping and talking about almost nothing but Epi & Golden. Any bad team would eat that up. UNLESS Golden or Epi was on their team.

Having played bad against Epi a zillion times, as soon as he mentions a teammate, I kill him, lol. I think most baddies do. But if he doesn't, then he's awesome alive. He's tenacious and always stone certain he is right regardless of whether that is true or not.

So I think either Golden is on Azuras team, OR Azura herself and her first recruit are someone fairly unfamiliar with our site player dynamics. And Goldens reaction to Epis death scotched that for me, tbh. I thought a frame was an outside possibility until golden started talking.

Linki, the poll can't be edited once people vote, the votes will be lost. So the hosts will have to decide if they want thread voting or to ask people who already voted to revote.

[Bullzeye]

I can't believe I'm saying this, especially since I feel like I disagree with Roxy a lot, but I'm totally in agreement on not getting the people celebrating Bass' death. A role such as his would have been incredibly powerful and useful if he had been recruited to a civ team, but very dangerous if it had been a bad team. And given he was chaotic-neutral at this point at worst due to him being a Sorcerer, I see their roles as neutrals as more causing the most chaos possible. That chaos could be controlled one way or the other depending on what team they're recruited to.

Who is celebrating? A couple of people have said they didn't mind so much because he was neutral and because of his role's clan affiliation. If there was a party I didn't get invited to it.

Asking someone openly to name whom they think is civ can only help the baddies. Especially in this game, where the baddies do not have a common target but are a common target, and that whole enemy of my enemy thing. I don't think this is a civ-friendly question, and I'm not sure Bass was playing a civ-friendly game, even if not recruited. Or at least wasn't seeming so with this post.

Does enemy of my enemy really apply as the baddies can't win together? Agree with the rest of your point though.

It'd be like putting my name on the top of a rainbow list.

Well I disagree with SVS view that rainbow lists make the slightest bit of difference as to who baddies kill anyway.

If half the thread is saying X is definitely civ and we really trust him, then that's a pretty good signal to the baddies that they may as well kill X since he's not getting lynched and might lead a bandwagon on one of them. In my experience baddies don't kill at random, whenever I've been bad anyone I've killed has been for a particular reason and sometimes that's based on things others in the thread have said about the victim.

I disagree with the strategy of lynching no-shows this game. While they haven't been strictly no-shows, and I usually operate under the mode of "Come to play" I thought we were actively looking for baddies, not just neutrals. As a matter of fact, the more we look at lynching neutrals, the longer the bad recruiters have chances of recruiting more people.

I agree and disagree with you here. At this stage of the game it's kinda pointless to lynch a low-participant when there's so much discussion flying about that we could learn something more meaningful from. I don't think anyone is actively trying to lynch neutrals though. I certainly haven't been. I thought Bass was bad and today when I vote it will be for someone I think is bad. If someone says they do want to specifically lynch a neutral as opposed to a baddie then they might become a contender for my vote. I know you aren't saying that but my point stands.

ALSO A REMINDER TO EVERYONE!!!

Uzbekistan can lock the thread today, which I'm assuming means for the entirety of the day phase, so if you have something you want to say, it may be a good idea to get it out sooner rather than later.

The entire nation of Uzbekistan is controlling this game? I didn't realise Mafia was such a big deal out there.

also I did not meant hard core players are going to be lynched, Im saying low poster will be lynched because the feel around is, they are not contributed so lets lynch them, but the same time a double standart of look at me Im contributed so much to the game, that the best plan is to go after low poster

I dont know if at this poing is an english issue, that people dont understand what Im saying tbqh
Fustrating

If anyone says they don't understand you, they just aren't trying. Your grammar isn't always perfect but 99% of the time it's easy to figure out what you want to say. I don't think Bass was lynched because he was a low poster, I think he was lynched because of the content of his posts. Similarly I don't think anyone else is likely to be lynched because they're a low poster. I mean one of the biggest debates is centred around Golden, for heaven's sake. If anybody accuses him of being a low poster I'll accuse them of reading the wrong forum.

If I was bass I prob would have done the same thing when pushed so hard at the end of day.

I am letting this drop except to say that those who pushed his lynch and were feeling good about his reveal as unrecruited have my undying suspicion this game.

I feel like undying suspicion is a bit of an overreaction. He was suspicious and he got lynched but wasn't bad. I think people were 'feeling good' (and personally I never commented either way in that regard) because they're in the typical mindset of "oh a neutral has been lynched, well at least he wasn't a civ". It's not a personal thing and it will probably happen again and again in this game until the teams are more fleshed out.

I see that golden is heading out and might not be back much but I have a question or two. Anyone else can weigh in on the answer as well. I have been away from mafia for a while and don't know/can't remember all the player dynamics.

First of all I'm of the mind that golden is not on the team that killed epi night one. I know golden still claims responsibility like that team is going to do his bidding for him but I'd think their motive was more to frame him. Anyone in particular come to mind as one who would do that?

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

I also think Golden was probably being framed by the Epi kill but I think a smart baddie doesn't then go after his or her frame-victim in the thread too. So if someone's intent was to set up Golden for a fall then I would be less inclined to believe it's one of his strongest pursuers.

Vote Metalmarsh89

His content has taken a rather steep dive over the last couple of real-time days. I'd like for him to say why.

I would like to hear more from MM too. Not going to vote for him yet (perhaps at all) but I'd like to understand him better. He was very engaged at the start IMO and then did the whole "I'll follow the Speaker's whim" thing and pretty much vanished. What's up MM?

The guilty party there was fingersplints and DFaraday. The former is not playing this game and the latter is barely playing this game. My point is that you could probably select a name at random to answer this question and it'd probably be nearly as likely to be correct as anyone's educated guesses would be.

Don't count DF out just yet. He may be quiet now but he almost always is, and he can be an absolute joy to scheme with in btsc because he's lethal when it matters. Still I think your general point here is an accurate one.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

If half the thread is saying X is definitely civ and we really trust him, then that's a pretty good signal to the baddies that they may as well kill X since he's not getting lynched and might lead a bandwagon on one of them. In my experience baddies don't kill at random, whenever I've been bad anyone I've killed has been for a particular reason and sometimes that's based on things others in the thread have said about the victim.

The value of open townie play in which people are happy to identify their town reads publicly is that it really progresses a process of elimination strategy. This has been one of my hallmarks in Mafia and I think it's usefulness is often overlooked in this culture because of the rule disallowing dead players from winning. Motivating the baddies to kill some specific player isn't that big a deal honestly, it promotes a civilian-controlled kill sequence and corners baddies in the live discourse. I've won many games on that strategy, often as a corpse.

However, in this game I can understand the tight lips more. There are only a few true civilians right now and it's better not to deliberately expose them.

[Golden]

SVS, the killing of epi derailed the thread. Are you telling me that what has occurred would not be a desirable outcome?

Also, if my goal was to kill epi so as to minimise the amount of attention on me in the thread (which has to be the reason, right?) then why do I immediately go and say something that will inevitably immediately reinvite that attention?

[S~V~S]

SVS, the killing of epi derailed the thread. Are you telling me that what has occurred would not be a desirable outcome?

Also, if my goal was to kill epi so as to minimise the amount of attention on me in the thread (which has to be the reason, right?) then why do I immediately go and say something that will inevitably immediately reinvite that attention?

I think that you came out saying the worst possible thing as it would help you wifom your way out of it. I do that ALOT. You're too slick, good or bad, to do something so clumsy without calculation imo.

If I am wrong I am very sorry. But I really don't think I am.

[DrWilgy]

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

I'm upto date and I'm not voting for Golden. Sorsha, what has you thinking someone hounding him is framing him?

If it is one of the players hounding him, who are they? DH, SVS and rey?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

You have not played with Epignosis much. I think it is unlikely that it is a frame becasue if I were a baddie, an Epi/Golden thread derailment would be a major wet dream. Had Epi not died, we would have had 2 more days of nonstop, escalating sniping and talking about almost nothing but Epi & Golden. Any bad team would eat that up. UNLESS Golden or Epi was on their team.

What about the baddie team that literally didn't "eat that up" in Broadway Mafia? Epi and I were sparring rather abrasively, and they killed him to frame me.[/quote]

[S~V~S]

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

I'm upto date and I'm not voting for Golden. Sorsha, what has you thinking someone hounding him is framing him?

If it is one of the players hounding him, who are they? DH, SVS and rey?

Yeah, good question. I would like to hear what she thinks as well.

Linki @JJJ~ there is always an exception. I still think a derailment is a better proposition early in the game than a frame.

[unfurl]

Linki, the poll can't be edited once people vote, the votes will be lost. So the hosts will have to decide if they want thread voting or to ask people who already voted to revote.

well this change things
I do not like missing votes, unless is an emergency that prevents me from do it
so I will place my vote in birdwithteeth11, this back in forth bewteen me and him has not changed my mind to not vote for him so far
if I changed my mind tomorrow, and the host let vote in the thread, then I guess that option may still be open

[Scotty]

I see that golden is heading out and might not be back much but I have a question or two. Anyone else can weigh in on the answer as well. I have been away from mafia for a while and don't know/can't remember all the player dynamics.

First of all I'm of the mind that golden is not on the team that killed epi night one. I know golden still claims responsibility like that team is going to do his bidding for him but I'd think their motive was more to frame him. Anyone in particular come to mind as one who would do that?

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

You have not played with Epignosis much. I think it is unlikely that it is a frame becasue if I were a baddie, an Epi/Golden thread derailment would be a major wet dream. Had Epi not died, we would have had 2 more days of nonstop, escalating sniping and talking about almost nothing but Epi & Golden. Any bad team would eat that up. UNLESS Golden or Epi was on their team.

Having played bad against Epi a zillion times, as soon as he mentions a teammate, I kill him, lol. I think most baddies do. But if he doesn't, then he's awesome alive. He's tenacious and always stone certain he is right regardless of whether that is true or not.

So I think either Golden is on Azuras team, OR Azura herself and her first recruit are someone fairly unfamiliar with our site player dynamics. And Goldens reaction to Epis death scotched that for me, tbh. I thought a frame was an outside possibility until golden started talking.

Linki, the poll can't be edited once people vote, the votes will be lost. So the hosts will have to decide if they want thread voting or to ask people who already voted to revote.

Good to know.


Also, @Hosts, What is the plan for the poll tonight? Are you tallying the votes at 10p and then making another 24 hr poll? Or what? Thanks!

[JaggedJimmyJay]

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

I'm upto date and I'm not voting for Golden. Sorsha, what has you thinking someone hounding him is framing him?

If it is one of the players hounding him, who are they? DH, SVS and rey?

Yeah, good question. I would like to hear what she thinks as well.

Linki @JJJ~ there is always an exception. I still think a derailment is a better proposition early in the game than a frame.

I believe you think that. I don't know that your perspective is the majority perspective though. In my experience, baddies often can't resist an opportunity for a frame job.

[Golden]

SVS, the killing of epi derailed the thread. Are you telling me that what has occurred would not be a desirable outcome?

Also, if my goal was to kill epi so as to minimise the amount of attention on me in the thread (which has to be the reason, right?) then why do I immediately go and say something that will inevitably immediately reinvite that attention?

I think that you came out saying the worst possible thing as it would help you wifom your way out of it. I do that ALOT. You're too slick, good or bad, to do something so clumsy without calculation imo.

If I am wrong I am very sorry. But I really don't think I am.

See, the problem I have here SVS is, you have based your case on me about knowing my civilian game so well...

If you know my civilian game so well, here is what you know about me. Please tell me if you perceive any part of this as not true.

1) I will always put the interests of the town first
2) I believe wholeheartedly that complete honesty from the civilians is usually the way to go, although you should keep secrets if saying a particular thing could aid the baddies.
3) I believe that, in particular, if you have been keeping something to yourself for the purpose of making a move, then when the move is complete you tell people that you made it.

A recent example of this in which you did not play was RYM87, a game in which I did take a lot of heat for doing things that I kept being told were anti-town, but the reality is that I knew better and at the end of the game it was clear why I did it.

That's exactly what I've done here. When you say I'm a slick civilian... I just completely disagree. I take heat as a civilian for stupid un-slick things all the time, and the reason that happens is because I am honest about what I'm doing and why and people often like to catch on and attack that. You say you understood why I did what I did in King Arthur and you remember it a lot. Do you also remember that before I made that move, I was under constant amount of suspicion for also being blunt and open about a whole lot of stuff? Do you remember there were some people who were as utterly as determined as you for days beforehand that I was bad, despite the fact I was actually King Arthur? I personally much prefer to go after people I think are lying about their true motives... which is why I went after epi, and also why I went after DH yesterday.

I think you have gotten in your head a single explanation for what has happened, and you are closing your mind to the possibility of what is actually the true explanation here, but I also think if you step back and reanalyse what you know of me, you can see the truth in this.

[Golden]

I have to say, I expected to wake up this morning and just see everyone going 'ok, I'll vote for golden, no problems'.

I'm surprised at how few people just jumped on me, and it has made me feel a whole lot better. So thank you to all those who haven't taken the easy way out even when I gave you permission to. It's meaningful for me.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Golden, what is your immediate reaction to LoRab's vote for you and stated reason?

[Sorsha]

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

I'm upto date and I'm not voting for Golden. Sorsha, what has you thinking someone hounding him is framing him?

If it is one of the players hounding him, who are they? DH, SVS and rey?

Well my thought was that they killed epi to frame golden to set up a golden lynch the next day, once that didn't happen they have had to step up their accusations against him to get the lynch train going to golden.

I don't agree with the conclusions svs has come to on golden. I have to re read dh and Rey a bit. I was just throwing it out there to see what others are thinking on it.

I should add that I'm not 100% caught up... It's just too much to read so I'm sorry if this stuff was covered already.

[S~V~S]

I see that golden is heading out and might not be back much but I have a question or two. Anyone else can weigh in on the answer as well. I have been away from mafia for a while and don't know/can't remember all the player dynamics.

First of all I'm of the mind that golden is not on the team that killed epi night one. I know golden still claims responsibility like that team is going to do his bidding for him but I'd think their motive was more to frame him. Anyone in particular come to mind as one who would do that?

My thoughts on the matter is whoever is really hounding golden in the thread did it. But is it a silly question to ask who would set golden up?

You have not played with Epignosis much. I think it is unlikely that it is a frame becasue if I were a baddie, an Epi/Golden thread derailment would be a major wet dream. Had Epi not died, we would have had 2 more days of nonstop, escalating sniping and talking about almost nothing but Epi & Golden. Any bad team would eat that up. UNLESS Golden or Epi was on their team.

Having played bad against Epi a zillion times, as soon as he mentions a teammate, I kill him, lol. I think most baddies do. But if he doesn't, then he's awesome alive. He's tenacious and always stone certain he is right regardless of whether that is true or not.

So I think either Golden is on Azuras team, OR Azura herself and her first recruit are someone fairly unfamiliar with our site player dynamics. And Goldens reaction to Epis death scotched that for me, tbh. I thought a frame was an outside possibility until golden started talking.

Linki, the poll can't be edited once people vote, the votes will be lost. So the hosts will have to decide if they want thread voting or to ask people who already voted to revote.

Good to know.


Also, @Hosts, What is the plan for the poll tonight? Are you tallying the votes at 10p and then making another 24 hr poll? Or what? Thanks!

Ha ha, it became predictable to the point that I felt like i was being kind of a bitch about it. The last few games I changed my strategy re him, but he is a hard one to get around.

[Sorsha]

Now answer mine.

If it worked once, It could work again. You've already shown you have no problem basically asking the people with the kills to do your dirty work, why would I, how could I in good faith, assume you wouldn't be above doing it twice?

Did you not think you could have lynched Epi? Or were you afraid that having lynched him would have put a nail in your coffin?

OK, so you were scared of me on the offchance that I would pull the same ploy a second time and on the offchance it would work twice (note, even after I had stated I don't think I would possibly be able to replicate it) and on the offchance that if I tried it again I would choose you as the target...

What has 'in good faith' got to do with it?

What I see in your answer to my question is exactly the same as what I thought of your suspicion all along.... you are not particularly scared of me killing you, you just see me, generically, as a threat.

And no, I did not think I could lynch epi (at least not before he lynched me). As I said, when epi has done what he did in this game in the past, it has not worked out well for me. Everything I did to epi was specifically about epi, and the impact he has on games, and I don't think anyone who claims they legitimately think I might do the same to them without any reason to think it is being genuine.

Oh, btw, you didn't actually directly answer my question. I thought I should point that out, since it seemed you had a problem with that when I did it. You've actually been avoiding it all afternoon.

Were you legitimately scared that if I am not on the team that killed epi, I could say 'kill DH for me', and they will?

Of course I am

It'd be like putting my name on the top of a rainbow list. Let me tell you why your Epi plan was good:

It was good because it got rid of someone you needed to get rid of in order to make it farther into the game. Now let me tell you why your Epi move was the worst possible thing you could have done:

You came up with a solution to a temporary problem that created a problem much bigger, and more difficult to solve. Namely, now you are unrecruitable. No one in their right mind would want you on their team, because of the big fuckin' red X on your forehead right now. You also presented at least one opportunity for the killer(s) to avoid accountability for their kill. Accountability is the most dangerous thing in mafia, and you basically gave whoever killed Epi a free pass.

So either you are a baddie and cooked up the whole "baited" kill as a smokescreen, or you are fine with not being recruited. Which of those do you think is more likely?

The bolded paragraph of DHs near the end of this quote explains why it would be a bad move for golden to have killed epi. It just doesn't make sense to me. I know this is goldens first recruitment game but it isn't his first mafia game.

[Golden]

Golden, what is your immediate reaction to LoRab's vote for you and stated reason?

I concur entirely with your view, but feel like a hypocrite for doing so.

Before I voted for myself last night, you will see LoRab just said she found me suspicious (just a few posts beforehand). This is the post that pushed me over the edge into my self-vote. It made me feel as though it is hopeless me saying anything, because no matter what I say people will call me suspicious, and it was that post that made me feel like I would not be able to survive the lynch anyway.

So to have her come back the next day and say she does not think I'm bad, but then vote for me anyway because I am a distraction and having me alive is not in the towns interests... it's just disappointing for me and it's times like this that I feel like it does not matter how many words I use, I cannot get my points across.

You're making it increasingly more difficult to not suspect you. No, you're not unrecruitable. And I think the civies would be just as hesitatnt to recuit you as the baddies would be. Actually, I think the baddies would want you more at this stage. And, as the game goes on, nuetrals become more of a threat. We're far from there, but will get there.

And you think Epi wanted to recruit you? That is new info, so to speak, and seems extremely unlikely. And negates your entire idea of the 2 of you never being on the same team. You are starting to grasp at straws and I find it hard to find that as a civ thing to do. I did not suspect you until this post, but the ping has started, and is growing louder.

That was part of her post, but you should find it in her iso and read the whole thing including thread context.

I don't know if it makes lorab bad, but I do think it means she could be a neutral.