Recruitment Mafia IV: Dawn of the Clans (End Game)

#6101

Beware those that are turning me into a huge distraction today. Ask yourself why there are people pushing this agenda of me being super dangerous to everyone and therefore must go ASAP considering the role they claim I am has a very obvious "Survive to win" win condition listed.

Look at the fear pushing of bullzeye for example. In this pretend world you've created, what would be the point of night killing people that are supporting me? That would be awfully short sighted, would it not?

Fear the fear pushers, friends.

#6102

reywaS wrote:Beware those that are turning me into a huge distraction today. Ask yourself why there are people pushing this agenda of me being super dangerous to everyone and therefore must go ASAP considering the role they claim I am has a very obvious "Survive to win" win condition listed.

Look at the fear pushing of bullzeye for example. In this pretend world you've created, what would be the point of night killing people that are supporting me? That would be awfully short sighted, would it not?

Fear the fear pushers, friends.

You'll survive with whoever you want to survive with - i.e. whoever is easiest to survive with when it all comes down to it. That's not fear pushing, it's stating the obvious.

#6103

Bullzeye wrote:
reywaS wrote:Beware those that are turning me into a huge distraction today. Ask yourself why there are people pushing this agenda of me being super dangerous to everyone and therefore must go ASAP considering the role they claim I am has a very obvious "Survive to win" win condition listed.

Look at the fear pushing of bullzeye for example. In this pretend world you've created, what would be the point of night killing people that are supporting me? That would be awfully short sighted, would it not?

Fear the fear pushers, friends.
You'll survive with whoever you want to survive with - i.e. whoever is easiest to survive with when it all comes down to it. That's not fear pushing, it's stating the obvious.

So...killing allies is taking the easy route in your scenario?

#6104

reywaS wrote:
Bullzeye wrote:
reywaS wrote:Beware those that are turning me into a huge distraction today. Ask yourself why there are people pushing this agenda of me being super dangerous to everyone and therefore must go ASAP considering the role they claim I am has a very obvious "Survive to win" win condition listed.

Look at the fear pushing of bullzeye for example. In this pretend world you've created, what would be the point of night killing people that are supporting me? That would be awfully short sighted, would it not?

Fear the fear pushers, friends.
You'll survive with whoever you want to survive with - i.e. whoever is easiest to survive with when it all comes down to it. That's not fear pushing, it's stating the obvious.
So...killing allies is taking the easy route in your scenario?

No, but you have no allies. Not really. Everyone has their own team and is mostly invested in protecting their own. Nobody needs you around. Similarly, you don't need anyone in particular. If you thought Devin was a threat or didn't think continuing to be allied with him was a worthwhile option, you'd kill him without a second thought. Obviously you probably won't actually kill him tonight, that was hyperbole. But you'll kill him the second you think it's worth it and there's no point denying that.

#6105

Bullzeye wrote:
Devin the Omniscient wrote:Fair enough, TH I doubt I will win this game, so I'm comfortable taking a few risks.
And when he thanks you with your own death tonight? Are you that invested in his survival?

I know reywaS isn't dumb. But what makes you think he would kill a potential ally before those who voted against him?

Linki

#6106

Devin the Omniscient wrote:
Bullzeye wrote:
Devin the Omniscient wrote:Fair enough, TH I doubt I will win this game, so I'm comfortable taking a few risks.
And when he thanks you with your own death tonight? Are you that invested in his survival?
I know reywaS isn't dumb. But what makes you think he would kill a potential ally before those who voted against him?

Linki

Well if you're saying it's kill Rey or be killed, then my vote is staying where it is and I'd hope others vote for him too as I don't want to be on his hitlist. But consider the linki, because you're not dumb either so I don't get it. Not everyone who wants to keep Rey around is on the same team. Say we lynch Nutella today and Rey swears loyalty to everyone that didn't vote him - not all those people are on the same team. He'll have to pick a side. How sure are you you'll stay on that side?

#6107

Bullzeye wrote:
reywaS wrote:
Bullzeye wrote:
reywaS wrote:Beware those that are turning me into a huge distraction today. Ask yourself why there are people pushing this agenda of me being super dangerous to everyone and therefore must go ASAP considering the role they claim I am has a very obvious "Survive to win" win condition listed.

Look at the fear pushing of bullzeye for example. In this pretend world you've created, what would be the point of night killing people that are supporting me? That would be awfully short sighted, would it not?

Fear the fear pushers, friends.
You'll survive with whoever you want to survive with - i.e. whoever is easiest to survive with when it all comes down to it. That's not fear pushing, it's stating the obvious.
So...killing allies is taking the easy route in your scenario?
No, but you have no allies. Not really. Everyone has their own team and is mostly invested in protecting their own. Nobody needs you around. Similarly, you don't need anyone in particular. If you thought Devin was a threat or didn't think continuing to be allied with him was a worthwhile option, you'd kill him without a second thought. Obviously you probably won't actually kill him tonight, that was hyperbole. But you'll kill him the second you think it's worth it and there's no point denying that.

hyperbole is the perfect description of what you are proposing. Thank you for saying it.

Also...why do you assume to know how I would approach a survive to win role?

This all sounds like something a politician would say. "Look everyone, let me show you who your enemy is even if you don't think they are."

#6108

and I very much DO have allies. You saying I don't goes against logic and reason.

#6109

reywaS wrote: hyperbole is the perfect description of what you are proposing. Thank you for saying it.

Also...why do you assume to know how I would approach a survive to win role?

This all sounds like something a politician would say. "Look everyone, let me show you who your enemy is even if you don't think they are."

I don't know how you specifically would approach it but I'm not stupid, I know how such roles are played. I'm not saying you're people's enemy, I'm saying you're a danger even if you want to deny it. You're promising the world to people knowing you can't follow through. You can't be everyone's ally. Don't act as if you can.

#6110

Bullzeye wrote:
Devin the Omniscient wrote:
Bullzeye wrote:
Devin the Omniscient wrote:Fair enough, TH I doubt I will win this game, so I'm comfortable taking a few risks.
And when he thanks you with your own death tonight? Are you that invested in his survival?
I know reywaS isn't dumb. But what makes you think he would kill a potential ally before those who voted against him?

Linki
Well if you're saying it's kill Rey or be killed, then my vote is staying where it is and I'd hope others vote for him too as I don't want to be on his hitlist. But consider the linki, because you're not dumb either so I don't get it. Not everyone who wants to keep Rey around is on the same team. Say we lynch Nutella today and Rey swears loyalty to everyone that didn't vote him - not all those people are on the same team. He'll have to pick a side. How sure are you you'll stay on that side?

Everything is temporary. Nothing is permanent. If everything were permanent, then the game was decided as soon as it began. A risk is called a risk for a reason. I'm not normally a gambling man, but like anyone else I like to try and improve my odds as much as possible. Above all else, I like to have fun. And this sure as hell is fun

#6111

If the Rogue Mercenary is not recruited by night 5, he will turn SK, he will then start killing nightly and will no longer be able to be recruited

So what allies do you have, Rey? If you really are the Mercenary who has been killing nightly since JJJ on Night 6. It's clear the Merc went unrecruited.

#6112

Bullzeye wrote:
reywaS wrote: hyperbole is the perfect description of what you are proposing. Thank you for saying it.

Also...why do you assume to know how I would approach a survive to win role?

This all sounds like something a politician would say. "Look everyone, let me show you who your enemy is even if you don't think they are."
I don't know how you specifically would approach it but I'm not stupid, I know how such roles are played. I'm not saying you're people's enemy, I'm saying you're a danger even if you want to deny it. You're promising the world to people knowing you can't follow through. You can't be everyone's ally. Don't act as if you can.

What? This is a silly argument, Bullz. You are setting me up to be the ultimate danger to everyone left in the game when the truth doesn't support your idea. A role that doesn't "need" anyone dead can only have a certain number of allies? I don't follow that logic. If I were thinking critically about this, I would say that it would be quite easy for such a role to sit back and not kill anyone.

#6113

Rey- don't you think the baddies will just kill you anyway? If you're trying to make a deal with civvies in the thread why would they want you around?

#6114

reywaS wrote:
Bullzeye wrote:
reywaS wrote: hyperbole is the perfect description of what you are proposing. Thank you for saying it.

Also...why do you assume to know how I would approach a survive to win role?

This all sounds like something a politician would say. "Look everyone, let me show you who your enemy is even if you don't think they are."
I don't know how you specifically would approach it but I'm not stupid, I know how such roles are played. I'm not saying you're people's enemy, I'm saying you're a danger even if you want to deny it. You're promising the world to people knowing you can't follow through. You can't be everyone's ally. Don't act as if you can.
What? This is a silly argument, Bullz. You are setting me up to be the ultimate danger to everyone left in the game when the truth doesn't support your idea. A role that doesn't "need" anyone dead can only have a certain number of allies? I don't follow that logic. If I were thinking critically about this, I would say that it would be quite easy for such a role to sit back and not kill anyone.

I'm really not. I'm saying I think you are a danger and I'd like that danger to be removed. You aren't the biggest danger and I came into this thinking you were just another baddie, but an SK (and that is what the Rogue Mercenary's description calls him if he isn't recruited by night 5) is fine by me. I specifically find issues with Devin's desire to keep you around because I think he's acting naive. You can only have so many allies because you literally can't ally with all four factions in the game. You can ally with the civs, or you can ally with a baddie team. Therefore you can only have a set amount of allies.

#6115

Sorsha wrote:Rey- don't you think the baddies will just kill you anyway? If you're trying to make a deal with civvies in the thread why would they want you around?

By that logic, why waste a lynch on him, then?

#6116

Bullzeye wrote:
If the Rogue Mercenary is not recruited by night 5, he will turn SK, he will then start killing nightly and will no longer be able to be recruited
So what allies do you have, Rey? If you really are the Mercenary who has been killing nightly since JJJ on Night 6. It's clear the Merc went unrecruited.

Curious what you left off of that....

If the Rogue Mercenary is not recruited by night 5, he will turn SK, he will then start killing nightly and will no longer be able to be recruited. Has to survive to win.

You are setting up a strawman argument, bullz. That sounds dubious to me.

Linki w/ Sorsha: Why would anyone other than baddies want me dead via a lynch? There is a lot of potential baddie motivation for this. I can't see a lot of civvie motivation for it. I guess baddies would rather lynch me because it wastes a lynch and saves a NK. win/win for a baddie team.

other linki

#6117

True- I guess I just don't really understand why he came forward with this...

#6118

I don't think he is making a deal with teams, he is making a deal with individuals.

frankly I think I am more interested in the information to be gained from Nutella. And seeing as how we never have night in position 3 for more than a few seconds, I don't think it is that great a risk. I think there is a lot to be gained from seeing nutella's alignment, because it will affect how I feel about a few others too.

#6119

reywaS wrote:
Bullzeye wrote:
If the Rogue Mercenary is not recruited by night 5, he will turn SK, he will then start killing nightly and will no longer be able to be recruited
So what allies do you have, Rey? If you really are the Mercenary who has been killing nightly since JJJ on Night 6. It's clear the Merc went unrecruited.

Curious what you left off of that....

Survive to win. But that doesn't answer my question.

reywaS wrote:
You are setting up a strawman argument, bullz. That sounds dubious to me.

Linki w/ Sorsha: Why would anyone other than baddies want me dead via a lynch? There is a lot of potential baddie motivation for this. I can't see a lot of civvie motivation for it. I guess baddies would rather lynch me because it wastes a lynch and saves a NK. win/win for a baddie team.

What I am doing is explaining why, from my point of view, you are a threat. Is that wrong of me to do? Love the NO U at the end there. You've killed two people I think were civs, that's a civ motivation to lynch you.

#6120

FWIW I didn't come forward with this idea. Turnip Head did.

#6121

You welcomed it though. Nobody has come forward to push that strongly against it, though I can see why they wouldn't, but I can't see why you'd act like it was true unless:

A - it was.
B - you're bad and would rather people think you're the Mercenary.

#6122

In my mind: The biggest threats to the RM right now are the baddie teams. The biggest threat to the baddie teams, atm, is the RM.
I think Bullz is bad. Why else would he be fighting so hard to get rid of a "danger" that just has to survive to win.

Linki: yes. There would be dire consequences for role-hinting at that scale. I'm sure it's in da rules somewhere.

#6123

C. It's fun

#6124

Sorsha wrote:True- I guess I just don't really understand why he came forward with this...

This was a reply to devin

Rey- like I said before though. We have no way of knowing if you'll turn against the civvies. If you decide to NK a civ (I'm not sure what the civ:bad ratio is right now) we might not have the numbers to lynch you.... And who knows what you got for completing your epic challenge. And the civvies only get their NKs on certain positions so it's not that easy for caelia or Ahriman to take you out.

I'm just not sure it's worth the risk.

How would you decide who to nk? Who would you listen to?

#6125

Devin the Omniscient wrote:In my mind: The biggest threats to the RM right now are the baddie teams. The biggest threat to the baddie teams, atm, is the RM.
I think Bullz is bad. Why else would he be fighting so hard to get rid of a "danger" that just has to survive to win.

Linki: yes. There would be dire consequences for role-hinting at that scale. I'm sure it's in da rules somewhere.

Why am I "fighting so hard"? Because nobody seems to want to lynch you all that much today, so I'm going with my other suspect. I'm not pushing other people to vote him, half of what I'm saying is just defending my viewpoint. If he is the Mercenary, there's no reason to trust him. If he isn't, then he's bad and should be lynched.

#6126

#6127

Sorsha wrote:
Sorsha wrote:True- I guess I just don't really understand why he came forward with this...
This was a reply to devin

Rey- like I said before though. We have no way of knowing if you'll turn against the civvies. If you decide to NK a civ (I'm not sure what the civ:bad ratio is right now) we might not have the numbers to lynch you.... And who knows what you got for completing your epic challenge. And the civvies only get their NKs on certain positions so it's not that easy for caelia or Ahriman to take you out.

I'm just not sure it's worth the risk.

How would you decide who to nk? Who would you listen to?

But....there is an obvious way of knowing.

Think of it like the real world. Someone says they are your friend. You believe them. They steal your boyfriend. Is that person still your friend?

#6128

Ok... But do you know who all the baddies are? How will you decide who to kill?

#6129

Bullzeye wrote:
Devin the Omniscient wrote:In my mind: The biggest threats to the RM right now are the baddie teams. The biggest threat to the baddie teams, atm, is the RM.
I think Bullz is bad. Why else would he be fighting so hard to get rid of a "danger" that just has to survive to win.

Linki: yes. There would be dire consequences for role-hinting at that scale. I'm sure it's in da rules somewhere.
Why am I "fighting so hard"? Because nobody seems to want to lynch you all that much today, so I'm going with my other suspect. I'm not pushing other people to vote him, half of what I'm saying is just defending my viewpoint. If he is the Mercenary, there's no reason to trust him. If he isn't, then he's bad and should be lynched.

OR....

nutella is your baddie team mate and you are pushing this so hard to save her. Thinking objectively, that is a very real possibility, no?

#6130

Spacedaisy wrote:I don't think he is making a deal with teams, he is making a deal with individuals. frankly I think I am more interested in the information to be gained from Nutella. And seeing as how we never have night in position 3 for more than a few seconds, I don't think it is that great a risk. I think there is a lot to be gained from seeing nutella's alignment, because it will affect how I feel about a few others too.

Yeah, I really do agree with you about the benefit of gaining info from a lynch, Daisy. If Nutella does flip bad, there's the potential to learn a lot there. If she flips good, I think the opportunities to learn are more limited. When Rey flips, we don't really learn anything.
I'm just struggling to decide what is more beneficial right now: removal of a sure threat with no info and baddies getting a whole lynch off; OR possibility of getting a baddie AND info, but also possibility of killing a civ and learning not much.

I know you have obviously decided which is more important for you at this point.... I'm still legitimately torn.

#6131

Sorsha wrote:
Sorsha wrote:True- I guess I just don't really understand why he came forward with this...
This was a reply to devin

Rey- like I said before though. We have no way of knowing if you'll turn against the civvies. If you decide to NK a civ (I'm not sure what the civ:bad ratio is right now) we might not have the numbers to lynch you.... And who knows what you got for completing your epic challenge. And the civvies only get their NKs on certain positions so it's not that easy for caelia or Ahriman to take you out.

I'm just not sure it's worth the risk.

How would you decide who to nk? Who would you listen to?

Understood Sorsha.
IMO, it wouldn't be in his best interest to discuss who he would NK or how he would come to the decision. It would all feel WIFOMy anyway.
But personally, I believe he would have more motivation to try and take out the others who have nks, and keep around those who are less willing to vote for him.

What do you think about what I said about Bullz?

Same question for you, SD.

I'm not ready to push a lynch against him just yet as this is the first time I've seen him in this light. But I'd still like to get other opinions on him.

Linki: Oooh, good theory, rey.

#6132

Rey is not persuading me, and I like ties (as well as being fairly neutral on Nutella) so let's tie it up, shall we?

#6133

reywaS wrote:
Bullzeye wrote:
Devin the Omniscient wrote:In my mind: The biggest threats to the RM right now are the baddie teams. The biggest threat to the baddie teams, atm, is the RM.
I think Bullz is bad. Why else would he be fighting so hard to get rid of a "danger" that just has to survive to win.

Linki: yes. There would be dire consequences for role-hinting at that scale. I'm sure it's in da rules somewhere.
Why am I "fighting so hard"? Because nobody seems to want to lynch you all that much today, so I'm going with my other suspect. I'm not pushing other people to vote him, half of what I'm saying is just defending my viewpoint. If he is the Mercenary, there's no reason to trust him. If he isn't, then he's bad and should be lynched.

OR....

nutella is your baddie team mate and you are pushing this so hard to save her. Thinking objectively, that is a very real possibility, no?

I'm not pushing against her lynch. I don't care about her lynch. I haven't voted for her, but I've not pushed anyone to not vote for her and I'm not pushing people to voting for you. I'm literally just responding to things people say to me or say about my opinions. Should I ignore you instead? That'd be rude.

Seriously, you're literally just saying this because I want you lynched. I've not said a word in Nutella's defense and I'm not going to. I think you are bad or at least a dangerous role who has shown himself happy to kill civs, so I'm voting for you. Every word I say, you've got a critical response to. I'm not going to ignore someone trying to defend themselves but I'm not going to change my opinion because you threaten to suspect me for it.

#6134

Sorsha wrote:Ok... But do you know who all the baddies are? How will you decide who to kill?

I do not know who all the baddies are. If I were the RM, self preservation would probably make that decision.

#6135

I also don't see how I'm fighting/pushing/whatevering for Rey's lynch. Every post I've made on the topic has literally been defending my own point of view. When someone has something to say to/about me, I respond to it.

#6136

In position 3 caelia can kill and Ahriman can block so I'm thinking it doesn't matter if we lynch Rey today or not.

I think I'll let them decide what to do with Rey and I'll switch my vote to Nutella.

#6137

Bullzeye wrote:
reywaS wrote:
Bullzeye wrote:
Devin the Omniscient wrote:In my mind: The biggest threats to the RM right now are the baddie teams. The biggest threat to the baddie teams, atm, is the RM.
I think Bullz is bad. Why else would he be fighting so hard to get rid of a "danger" that just has to survive to win.

Linki: yes. There would be dire consequences for role-hinting at that scale. I'm sure it's in da rules somewhere.
Why am I "fighting so hard"? Because nobody seems to want to lynch you all that much today, so I'm going with my other suspect. I'm not pushing other people to vote him, half of what I'm saying is just defending my viewpoint. If he is the Mercenary, there's no reason to trust him. If he isn't, then he's bad and should be lynched.

OR....

nutella is your baddie team mate and you are pushing this so hard to save her. Thinking objectively, that is a very real possibility, no?
I'm not pushing against her lynch. I don't care about her lynch. I haven't voted for her, but I've not pushed anyone to not vote for her and I'm not pushing people to voting for you. I'm literally just responding to things people say to me or say about my opinions. Should I ignore you instead? That'd be rude.

Seriously, you're literally just saying this because I want you lynched. I've not said a word in Nutella's defense and I'm not going to. I think you are bad or at least a dangerous role who has shown himself happy to kill civs, so I'm voting for you. Every word I say, you've got a critical response to. I'm not going to ignore someone trying to defend themselves but I'm not going to change my opinion because you threaten to suspect me for it.

Why in the world would you self connect to nutella if you were her team mate given the current status quo? This is another strawman, Bullz.

#6138

reywaS wrote: Why in the world would you self connect to nutella if you were her team mate given the current status quo? This is another strawman, Bullz.

Sorry, no it isn't. My suspicion of you has nothing to do with her. You are making it about her. I am defending myself, if anything, because every time I say anything at all you come out with "durr strawman if your posts only had a brain".

My opinion is this:

You are a role that isn't a civ and whose kills so far consist of at least 50% civs, as I believe. That makes you, in my opinion, no ally of mine. If you are not this role, then I believe that you are allowing people to think it because you are bad and it is a reasonable defensive position to take. I am not pushing this idea onto anyone else, merely defending the honesty behind it which keeps on being questioned.

#6139

So, why don't you tell us how you feel about nutella then?

#6140

reywaS wrote:So, why don't you tell us how you feel about nutella then?

I don't particularly feel anything. I haven't seen anything that made me want to lynch her and nobody has convinced me to vote for her.

#6141

Inb4 saying that means I'm her teammate as if there was a response you'd have been happy with.

#6142

Have you role-checked JJJ and Rico?

#6143

Devin the Omniscient wrote:Have you role-checked JJJ and Rico?

No. Have you?

#6144

No. So how are you so sure about them? I'm not.
Same goes for the 2 supposed baddies.

#6145

Bullzeye wrote:Inb4 saying that means I'm her teammate as if there was a response you'd have been happy with.

Nope. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to say regardless of your affiliation.

#6146

Devin the Omniscient wrote:No. So how are you so sure about them? I'm not.
Same goes for the 2 supposed baddies.

I think both JJJ and Rico were civs, either recruited to a team or civ-friendly neutrals. Their actions throughout the game have lead me to believe such. As for Llama and Tranq - I'm not calling either of them bad. I thought Tranq might be. Re-read my comments. I've never said he definitely did kill 2 and only 2 civs. It is all based on my own opinion. That's all I've got to work with and it's clearly not worth much.

#6147

Well, if it's not going to be a tie, I'm going back to MM. I like ties.

#6148

Bullzeye wrote:
Devin the Omniscient wrote:No. So how are you so sure about them? I'm not.
Same goes for the 2 supposed baddies.
I've never said he definitely did kill 2 and only 2 civs. It is all based on my own opinion. That's all I've got to work with and it's clearly not worth much.

That's all I'm trying to get at.

It's almost pointless to say stuff like:

Bullzeye wrote:You are a role that isn't a civ and whose kills so far consist of at least 50% civs, as I believe. That makes you, in my opinion, no ally of mine.

because noone but a dead-role-checker can possibly know for certain what alignment nked players are. I'm never sure which way to read Rico, and this is my first time playing in a game with JJJ. And from my texts with MP about his visits to other sites, he's (JJJ) a legendary player who can waltz on both sides of the alignment dance floor. If I remember correctly, I think MP told me that JJJ won the multi-site championship as a baddie. So I'm less inclined to believe his supatown act either way.
A lot of people have been saying the Tranq is bad, but he's been quieter than myself and reywaS had been. Almost nothing to go on there that I can tell.
But I think we are both in agreement with llama's alignment. More on that when he's not immune.

Hope my point is clear here. I rambled a little bit.

Linki: I wouldn't expect much else

#6149

Ironically enough, I think me calling out Rey as the SK is what will force him to stop killing willy nilly and choose a side. I don't think he can be trusted long term (he's claiming to not be LMS, and while the role doesn't explicitly state that it's LMS, I don't think it's a reach that it is). And if he's telling the truth about not being LMS, then even more ironic is that his best bet for a swift endgame would be to kill the civvies who are probably fewer in number than the baddies, and those are probably exactly the people who have been forced to put their hope in Rey's murderous hands. But I don't think he'll do that, and in any case I'm happy with the work I've done here today

That said I think Sorsha makes an excellent point about us being in Position 3 and being able to nullify Rey's potentially harmful actions in the short term. I'll switch my vote to nutella in the hope that it takes me off Rey's shitlist.

#6150

now this is entertaining! you know what it lacks? my rezz pls

also, my spreadsheets can still bleed post-mortem, you know

Game End!