STAR WARS Mafia [ENDGAME]

[MacDougall]

MP when you see this can you please give me links to other games you've played where you survived to end game? A nice mixture of your alignments would be nice. I'd like a few. I want to get a read of your meta. I tend to default read people who make shit tons of posts as civilian so the first thing I will look at is your volumes per alignment.

[a2thezebra]

I agree with what Mac said about your vote on him Dom, which is my main non-gut ping from you in the game so far. But it isn't damning. I think today we should really take a good look at MP.

[a2thezebra]

MP when you see this can you please give me links to other games you've played where you survived to end game? A nice mixture of your alignments would be nice. I'd like a few. I want to get a read of your meta. I tend to default read people who make shit tons of posts as civilian so the first thing I will look at is your volumes per alignment.

This would be nice as well, to see MP's meta in action. Anyway,

[Dom]

You haven't gained my trust yet but I appreciate the effort, and you seem genuine here. With that said, I would advocate an MP lynch today as well.

I wouldn't expect to gain your trust after that-- if I did... I'd be very wary of it.

Dom and Sorsha, what are your current thoughts on MP?

Not good.

I felt like he pulled a NO U on me and has made minimal effort to have his own thoughts while accusing me of doing the same. I think his claim that my suspicions have been "all over the place" is unsubstantiated-- he has yet to really back this up. I am very okay with a MP lynch because as SOON as I entertained the thought of him being bad, I dropped down to dark red on his rainbow list. He claims I'm not baddie hunting, but I don't think that's true. I voted early in both Matt and Enrique's lynches. I was busy on the day of bcornett's and I think i missed the vote. I was suspicious of Bass (and was wrong)-- same with Simon. Yesterday, I felt like it might be best to get rid of one of Golden or Mac because of how the thread was "behaving" and which one I thought was more bad is who i voted for. I think MP's claim is bogus and it's a way to silence his critics.
Additionally, who has MP really suspected all game?


I understand I had a rough few days in the thread where I was very frustrated with some of the goings-ons, but my frustration was real, A2Z.

Dom, you haven't really made a strong case against me either. You've said I was suspicious. That I was worse than Golden. That I drain the energy of the game. But nothing alignment indicative enough for you to be calling me suspicious again now that the 1 v 1 that you must have agreed with to actually get your vote on me, is a thing of the past. And you also told Golden you weren't sold by his case about 10 minutes before voting for me after he gave you the cliffs, yet then backed up the vote not saying he convinced you, but saying more or less that you thought I was more likely to be bad than him.

Can you see why that sort of thing would be considered a scummy look in the minds of people? I don't think it's a lock or entirely alignment indicative but if I had to explain why it could be a bad look it looks like a scum player who hasn't put the work in to make a really convincing fake case just throwing vague shade on someone who is producing enough controversial content to maybe get jag lynched by it. It's the scum who can't be bothered look.

Your scum read of me;

I've been "cryptic"
I've been draining
You tried to put shade on me briefly over the Roxy thing, which looked like a real weak attempt to shade me again
Better me than Golden

It's not very convincing. Has a real look of scum having a scum read on someone because you gotta have a scum read on someone ya know?

At least tell me you can see how it could be taken that way?

First off, I would like you to recognize that I am not gunning for you today. You are not my strongest suspect today.
I do understand your viewpoint, but you're wrong. I think your case on Golden is reaching at best, and I found the way you pushed it suspicious. Given the way the day looked like it was going at the time and given that I do not want to be a late voter in this game, I voted where I thought my vote would be best. The thread exploded thereafter.
I don't like that we seem to misunderstand each other often, but you also have to be willing to look at things from my POV if you want me to even begin to entertain the idea that I can't be suspicious of you. You have been cryptic. I never fully understand what you mean in your posts. I don't really want to discuss why you've been draining or why I feel that's relevant. I questioned you over a post that I thought read as quite contrived, but literally posted about how your clarification made sense to me later. Did you skip that?

So, I get where you're coming from and know you are wrong. You can, and should, provide me with the same respect.

[Dom]

If you can't... I'm 100% going to continue to suspect you.

[MacDougall]

I saw that you explained that the suspicion was lifted with my explanation, but I still find the way you immediately threw shade on me after I said it was pretty opportunistic. Your explanation as to why it was suspicious, that it was "convenient" is the kind of word I expect a scum to use when they actually don't have a reason to find it suspicious and are just faking a read. If you'd have called it weird, that'd have been okay because it was weird, but convenient it was not. I'm not sure I would describe putting my neck out like that as something I felt was convenient.

It's fine that you're not gunning for me, I was going to ask if you had other suspects and I am glad you have.

Dom, which part of my case is reaching, and what about it is suspicious? You have said how you feel about it, but not the things that makes you feel that way. I can't help you understand my point of view if you don't explain why my point of view has you suspicious with at least some specifics. For all your criticisms of my play style and apparent cryptic behaviour, at least I am showing you specific instances where you've done suspicious things. You haven't given me one specific thing. You've generalized. I've been cryptic. My case is "reaching at best" and the way I "pushed" it was suspicious. All generalisations. The one time you started to suspect me for an actual thing (the Roxy thing) you recanted when I explained further.

Your vote on me itself is fine, and if you had have just came in and voted and left wouldn't be suspicious to me because I would have just assumed you chose Golden in a 1 v 1. It was the way you coaxed Golden into giving you a little bit of a reason to get it on there, and your failure to mention specific details after the fact despite maintaining a suspicion that has me a little bit suspicious of you back.

You saying that I have to be willing to look at things from your POV would be fine if it were true. I'd love to understand your point of view but you've given me nothing to elaborate on. You seem to just want to read me as bad whereas if you were trying to find the truth of the matter why don't you give me some specifics so I can succeed or fail at explaining what the deal with them is? Surely that's a better way to find a bad guy than just lightweight generalisations?

What post/s of mine are cryptic?

[Epignosis]

FYI- I'm still in the process of adding up /subtracting all the credits after the previous Day phase. Thank you for your patience.

[Dom]

I saw that you explained that the suspicion was lifted with my explanation, but I still find the way you immediately threw shade on me after I said it was pretty opportunistic. Your explanation as to why it was suspicious, that it was "convenient" is the kind of word I expect a scum to use when they actually don't have a reason to find it suspicious and are just faking a read. If you'd have called it weird, that'd have been okay because it was weird, but convenient it was not. I'm not sure I would describe putting my neck out like that as something I felt was convenient.

It's fine that you're not gunning for me, I was going to ask if you had other suspects and I am glad you have.

Dom, which part of my case is reaching, and what about it is suspicious? You have said how you feel about it, but not the things that makes you feel that way. I can't help you understand my point of view if you don't explain why my point of view has you suspicious with at least some specifics. For all your criticisms of my play style and apparent cryptic behaviour, at least I am showing you specific instances where you've done suspicious things. You haven't given me one specific thing. You've generalized. I've been cryptic. My case is "reaching at best" and the way I "pushed" it was suspicious. All generalisations. The one time you started to suspect me for an actual thing (the Roxy thing) you recanted when I explained further.

Your vote on me itself is fine, and if you had have just came in and voted and left wouldn't be suspicious to me because I would have just assumed you chose Golden in a 1 v 1. It was the way you coaxed Golden into giving you a little bit of a reason to get it on there, and your failure to mention specific details after the fact despite maintaining a suspicion that has me a little bit suspicious of you back.

You saying that I have to be willing to look at things from your POV would be fine if it were true. I'd love to understand your point of view but you've given me nothing to elaborate on. You seem to just want to read me as bad whereas if you were trying to find the truth of the matter why don't you give me some specifics so I can succeed or fail at explaining what the deal with them is? Surely that's a better way to find a bad guy than just lightweight generalisations?

What post/s of mine are cryptic?

I am not going through all 300+ of your posts to find the ones that I'm talking about. I'm just not doing that-- I don't have the time nor do I have the energy.

You HAVEN'T really given concrete reasons why I'm bad, but okay-- whatever you say.


Your suspicion of Golden is reaching to me for the following reasons:
-I doubt Crumb's role would be so obvious.
-I doubt Golden would be so obvious if the role were so obvious.
-I doubt Golden threw his teammates under the bus in the way he did. Your timeline is illogical to me. It requires Golden to turn on people and trust them and turn on people multiple times to work.

[sig]

I was against lynching Golden/Mac yesterday, but I don't find the fact that Dom voted for Mac to be that pingy. It is worth keeping an eye on Dom, but I won't be lynching him. I've been thinking ofa few different theories, and I don't think the entire mafia team was inactive, I believe they wanted us to think they were, but actually they were blocked night 1, this means at some point the blocker was killed, by I suspect the Empire. So I still think we have one or two inactive mafia members for team Empire, but I also think we have an active member.

I've got some slightly negative pings from MP right know, so I'll ISO him later today and see what I see. Something that I find quite pingy is that he is asking lots of questions, yet not really providing reads. This makes him an active player, but he himself really doesn't have to make reads. Also out of the players who did the GTH all said I was civ, I believe one of the four to do this is mafia. Know the four were if I'm not mistaken
Mac
Zebra
MP
Roxy (she did it slightly?)

Roxy is civ, and I trust Mac. That leaves Zebra and MP out of those two I feel worse about MP. I also find it interesting Roxy our tracker had MP down as scum. Notice roxy also said if you want to get a baddie vote for me. I don't think she said this to get lynched, I think she was being honest. We know she was the tracker so that means, she tracked someone and found out they were bad. I think she tracked MP and saw him targeting someone. This would explain her sudden scum read on MP. I think if MP is bad he is a member of the Empire, he is fostering the idea that the Empire team is inactive, yet hasn't really helped scum hunt for the mafia team. I would also remind everyone that it is possibly for Space and MPto be on the same team.

For MP being silenced, I believe either his own team silenced him or another secret role that isn't mafia silenced him since they thought he was mafia.

I'd like more opinions on this though before I cast my vote.

Also what does everyone think about no NK?

[Canucklehead]

Okey dokey, I shall now attempt to actually make good on my promises to contribute something more conrete than vague opinions and agreements with other players to this game. My priority is to look at zebra's interactions with known hutts, and if I have time after that, I'd like to look at Eloh (who I remember having pings about during the Simon lynch, but can't remember why). Following that (and this is getting into the realm of highly unlikely to happen due to the cascading guilt of avoiding to do any real work today while I do the previous two items), I need to re-familiarize myself with people playing this game who are not named zebra, mac, or Golden. I know not all of the other players have been lurkers, but my focus has been so overwhelmingly devoured by those three that a serious and conscious re-direct is in order. Hopefully I can get to that later tonight or tomorrow.

I'm also interested in the (seemingly) sudden swell of MP suspicion. As I've said, I have absolutely no ability to read MP and I always think he's bad, and I've been waffling on him all game. I'd like to hear what Daisy has to say about him, if she's had a chance to give him a look?

[Dom]

I was against lynching Golden/Mac yesterday, but I don't find the fact that Dom voted for Mac to be that pingy. It is worth keeping an eye on Dom, but I won't be lynching him. I've been thinking ofa few different theories, and I don't think the entire mafia team was inactive, I believe they wanted us to think they were, but actually they were blocked night 1, this means at some point the blocker was killed, by I suspect the Empire. So I still think we have one or two inactive mafia members for team Empire, but I also think we have an active member.

I've got some slightly negative pings from MP right know, so I'll ISO him later today and see what I see. Something that I find quite pingy is that he is asking lots of questions, yet not really providing reads. This makes him an active player, but he himself really doesn't have to make reads. Also out of the players who did the GTH all said I was civ, I believe one of the four to do this is mafia. Know the four were if I'm not mistaken
Mac
Zebra
MP
Roxy (she did it slightly?)

Roxy is civ, and I trust Mac. That leaves Zebra and MP out of those two I feel worse about MP. I also find it interesting Roxy our tracker had MP down as scum. Notice roxy also said if you want to get a baddie vote for me. I don't think she said this to get lynched, I think she was being honest. We know she was the tracker so that means, she tracked someone and found out they were bad. I think she tracked MP and saw him targeting someone. This would explain her sudden scum read on MP. I think if MP is bad he is a member of the Empire, he is fostering the idea that the Empire team is inactive, yet hasn't really helped scum hunt for the mafia team. I would also remind everyone that it is possibly for Space and MPto be on the same team.

For MP being silenced, I believe either his own team silenced him or another secret role that isn't mafia silenced him since they thought he was mafia.

I'd like more opinions on this though before I cast my vote.

Also what does everyone think about no NK?

Your Rox theory is interesting. I hadn't thought of Rox's role in that context.

[Tangrowth]

Okay, so I see players suspect me suddenly. Well, that's great timing, because my stress levels are through the roof right now and I don't really have the time to afford to be here right now, but had to make my final vote in Tree Mafia so like the addict I am, I just had to check. I'm only here to catch up, sorry for not being around to engage the thread.

I realize my contributions haven't been supatown level since earlier in the game, but I really just don't have the time (try juggling research assistant work, three PhD-level classes at end of semester, finals, teaching, trying to figure out my dissertation, and independent research of my own so that I can actually teach at a decent enough university. I shouldn't have signed up for one game, let alone two, before my winter break, but I take complete responsibility for my decision, and if you all feel as though I've not contributed my weight to this game and you find me truly suspicious enough for that (or other reasons) out of all the candidates to give me your vote, so be it, but you won't catch a mafia. I'll be around tomorrow after my exam (which I'm pretty sure I've mentioned I am busy until the 8th about 10 million times in this thread AND Tree Mafia, zebra, so thanks for reading my posts ) to defend myself further if necessary, and, more importantly, try my best to hunt some mafia.

To defend against and comment on some things I've seen quickly (by my standards):

1) Dom, you keep saying my suspicion of you was a NO U. While the timing may appear to be a NO U and I can see why you proclaim that, I don't care that you think it's a NO U. I gave specific reasons for dropping you down my list, and that was purely a result of the fact that you voted for Mac essentially for saying he's arrogant, and I thought your progression of train of thought exhibited in those posts I displayed was not believable. In addition, after finding that content particularly suspicious, I tried to recall your progression of suspects throughout the game, and what I could recall is that I thought you've been hopping suspects. If that impression is incorrect, I apologize, but even though I started looking into your posts last Day cycle, I didn't have the time to sift through them in detail. I appreciate you mentioning your specific suspects in a recent post. I promise I'll take a look when I get the chance to see whether my suspicion is founded or not (and I'm pretty sure I said something just like this before, so please don't pretend as if I'm saying stuff that isn't true without disclaiming it as my perception). If you have specific points for me to address about you or anyone else, I'll see what I can do tomorrow.

2) I don't understand where the accusation is coming from with respect to me not having suspects. I've been consistently providing my rainbow lists with my detailed thoughts regarding individuals, and explaining why I suspect players all game, and I've had suspects from the very beginning of the game (Russtifinko) onward. i haven't had the time to conduct seriously thorough ISO and other analyses, because I'm busy as fuck. I'm not sure what benchmark my contributions to this game are being held against, but they're clearly not being held to the same benchmark as other players such as Sorsha, who is conveniently coasting every single Day period without getting enough traction/discussion, or countless others who I feel have been less transparent with their suspicions than I have. But if that's not the benchmark or reason, then can someone explain to me why I'm getting eyeballed for not having suspects? Because it's flat out untrue.

3) sig, I've been consistently reading you as town all game so my GTH read of you shouldn't have come as any surprise. I think you've been contributing and trying to hunt in a genuine way and nothing has changed my mind about that all game, and I'm pretty sure you will find this expressed in my reads at some point if you ISO me.

4) Regarding the Rox tracking theory, all I can say is that it is incorrect. I would suggest looking through Roxy's posts to see who she suspected, because if she tracked any killer, it definitely wasn't me. I frankly don't fully understand where Roxy's mafia read of me was even coming, but I get the sense she was mafia reading both me and zebra to some degree based on the way we were playing this game aggressively (and I think she called zebra manipulative, but I don't remember her saying anything like that about me).

5) Mac (and zebra), regarding my meta, I can hardly think of any games where I've even remotely come close to endgame, because I systematically get lynched in many games that I play. The only two games that come to mind on The Syndicate are Are You Being Served? and Clue: The Movie, both of which were civilian (but distracted) games of mine, and I firmly believe I only lasted so long in both because I was far from full form (and in AYBS? I had a role that gained a role check if I missed the vote and got people to talk about my ridiculous reason for missing it... lots of fun, haha, but produced an unconventional style from me I would say). You can find those two games in the old Side Missions subforum in the Museum. Off the top of my head I literally cannot think of any other game here on The Syndicate where I made it to endgame without weird circumstances. Doctor Who I made it to endgame, but only because I was outed as a civilian Doctor (but resurrected and then secretly recruited by a secret role, lol). Monopoly and Biblical I made it to endgame but only because I replaced back in after dying. Occultism I only made it to endgame because I was a civilian, killed, then resurrected. WWE was a good game of mine where I was mafia, but I was sacrificed via lynch pretty early on. So... I don't really get to make it to endgame.

6) Out of those who have commented on suspicion of me thus far, I find Sorsha to be most disingenuous, then zebra, then Dom, then sig. I actually feel a bit better about Dom based on what I've read of him during Day 7, so I'll readily admit that maybe I was NO U'ing him a bit, but I nonetheless find his posts surrounding MacDougall yesterday to not be genuine and his vote seemed as though he didn't fully believe it / it was a cop out. I've been feeling good about zebra, but I don't understand why she had me listed at half rainbow (if I recall correctly) as recently as this past Night period and now suddenly says she has a bad gut feeling about me and that I should be lynched. I wish you had engaged me earlier than this cycle on this, zebra, especially if you're really considering a vote for me today so that I could better respond to your concerns, because otherwise you've given no indication of considering a vote for me. Again, I welcome you examining me, but this timing couldn't be worse with regards to a suddenly-formed examination. Sorsha just said "he could be empire" with no basis or anything, so... yeah. Thoughts on how she actually reaches that conclusion would be appreciated, because otherwise it looks like an opportunistic way to push more heat on me while I'm not around. Anyone could say "he/she could be empire". That's true of literally everyone in this game. So what's the point in saying it? While I don't fully understand where sig's negative pings of me have come from, I don't find his comments disingenuous. If he is mafia, then he has me fooled.

Anyway, I think that's everything I have to say, and now I've spent way more time here than I should right now. I'm beyond stressed right now, so I apologize if any of you take any of the tone in this post to be of aggravation. It's because I am really aggravated, but only at myself, so I'm not aggravated at any of you. 99% of it is stemming from the fact that I've already sunk too much time the past few weeks into mafia and not into studying/PhD work as it is. That's my own fault. I do not intend to use RL as a defense, so by all means, if you think I'm mafia based on my behavior, vote for me. Please do not avoid voting for me because I have mentioned RL in here. The only reason I mention it is to explain why I am not engaged in this game more and why I am not employing detailed analytical methods that take a lot of time. I fully open myself to be examined because I have nothing to hide, and it would be unfortunate if I were mislynched, but I'll just do what I can because RL takes precedence for me until tomorrow morning. Now I'm forcing myself away from all sites for the rest of the day by punishment of death because I'm going to fail this thing if I don't.

[Dom]

MP, Roxy suspected... you. (And me, but never gave a single reason.)

Why leave out Dr. Who where you were literally unkillable?

[Tangrowth]

MP, Roxy suspected... you. (And me, but never gave a single reason.)

Why leave out Dr. Who where you were literally unkillable?

I just said both of those things in my post... More proof that people don't read my posts.

Alright, I'm gone for real now. See you all later after I've fried my brain.

[Dom]

MP, Roxy suspected... you. (And me, but never gave a single reason.)

Why leave out Dr. Who where you were literally unkillable?

I just said both of those things in my post... More proof that people don't read my posts.

Alright, I'm gone for real now. See you all later after I've fried my brain.

You wrote several extremely long paragraphs and I missed one detail, I'm sorry?

Also-- my point is that Roxy suspected the two of us.... that's who she suspected. You asked people to look into her posts and that's what they'll find. Excellent attempt to victimize yourself and discredit me, though.

[Canucklehead]

So zebra obviously has about a million posts to go through. I am under no illusion that this browse through is going to be in any way comprehensive, and I'm sure I will miss things, but this is the best I can do in the time/effort I have available. I've focused on Z's interactions with and about known Hutts, because this investigation was prompted by my idea that z might be a Hutt. This case says nothing whatsoever about whether or not Z might be empire. Someone else can do that, My conclusions, such as they are, are at the bottom in a spoiler tag, because I think you should all (obviously) draw your own. I've tried to look at and present the information as objectively as possible (a fools' errand, I know) because I think a lot of us (me included) have been town-reading z for a while, and I am very, very wary of provoking a backlash against a strong town player. On the other hand, the fact that we've all been reading her town means that if she's fooling us all, we need to wake up and smell the coffee pronto. So. Do with this what you will, I did my best.

Here goes!

Okay I planned on staying in semi-spectator mode to watch you two go at it but seriously why Enrique?

Z is the first person to jump on Mac's Day 1 random denunciation of Enrique as scum. This post comes three minutes after Mac reiterates his scum-claim on Enrique. In a less active player, this would be a major red flag for me because of the quickness with which Z jumps on what (to me at least) seemed to be a mainly jokey/prodding/not entirely serious suspicion. However, two things temper that: 1) Z is very active and responsive in the thread when she's around, and she would likely respond this way to any statement about any player presented as definitively as Mac does. 2) We don't know if En-Greedo was known to his Hutt-mates or not, so it's tough to say if Z-as-Hutt would have known that Enrique was a teammate or not.

Mac and Z then go on to have a back-and-forth about Mac's Day 0 ping on Enrique, in which Z is at first incredulous that Mac wasn't joking about calling Enrique "confirmed scum". The initial incredulity sits totally fine with me, but the reasoning that Mac presents for his Day 1 vote/accusation (I'm not sure if Mac has actually voted at this point?) is actually pretty fucking sound for Day 1, and to her credit Z recognizes this:

That's more like it. Response, Enrique?

However, her response to Enrique's response is interesting:

like i dont even understand what the baddie logic behind anything there would be.

See this is the same problem I had with MP regarding DDL (I know I said I wouldn't talk about him until he responded but I have to as an example OKAY?!) because it's not the actions themselves that could be interpreted as scummy because as scum you're not intending for those actions to be pointed out or even visible to anyone including yourself in the first place. These actions are products of a narrative that is simply more likely to be interpreted as scum than town, because it makes sense that you would be nervous about blending in as scum hence the inconsistencies of your voting, while the likelihood that you were simply going through the motions of researching the locations is less likely given the nature of some of your posts, at least in Mac's opinion.

I'm not fully convinced but this response of yours didn't help you. I don't think you're giving his case enough credit, yet you seem rather flustered as if it is in fact worth looking into.

If I'm looking at this post with "Z is a Hutt" glasses, then this reads to me like gentle coaching (especially useful since there was no BTSC with Greedo), pointing out to Enrique exactly how and why his responses are unsatisfying, and making sure to leave herself room to ultimately position herself on either side of the Enrique question depending on how things shake out (something I think baddies do not only with teammates, but with any in-thread suspects). Of course, this reading works only if the Hutts know Greedo's identity.
On the other hand, if I'm looking at this post with "Z is a civ" glasses, it reads like someone considering Mac's reasonable case, and giving Enrique an opportunity to defend before making up her mind.

Something that does seem a bit odd, is that after going to the effort of constructing this thoughtful response to Mac/Enrique, E provides a pretty minimal defense, and Z's only response to that is "Hmmmmm.....time will tell". I would expect someone who was actually genuinely attempting to sort out the merits of Mac's case to want to engage Enrique more, or at least express some disastisfaction with his minimal response. But That's obviously just a subjective thing.

I don't think enrique vote for Yavin is suspicious.
Though this

I think Tattooine, in the worst case scenario, would favor the Independents. Do we know what their win conditions are yet?

The Hutts aren't independent and are based on Tattooine so I find this interesting.

Yeah that seemed really obvious once somebody pointed it out. To be fair, when I think of Tattooine I always associate it with those raider shits stealing the droids, Anakin coming back to kill them, etc. I haven't watched a Star Wars film since I was 10, and though yes I know the Hutts are based there, it just kinda went over my head when I made that post.

Hmmm...I don't buy it.

Here Z isn't convinced by.....?? I dunno. I guess she means Enrique? But this could also be read as "not buying" sig's suspicion of Enrique. Undefined pronouns are undefined!

Thank you for bringing up MM's bizarre early vote and how it's fucking weird that no one is talking about it...MM.

This has nothing at all to do with the possibility of Z being a Hutt, but I thought it was fucking hilarious and made me laugh out loud while I was reading, so I re-posted it for your reading pleasure.

Pretty soon after this, Z goes into her Massive Day 1 ISOs of every player. Some people have (I think?) already expressed slight suspicion that this might have been an over-the-top display of faux towniness....but here are her early isos of Enrique and bcornett:

Enrique

I am so done with these after finishing Matt's ISO. But nevertheless, I must move forward!

I think Tattooine, in the worst case scenario, would favor the Independents. Do we know what their win conditions are yet?

Sooooo this is a horse that's been beaten to death already. I have nothing to say about it that hasn't already been said, so I'll just say again that I am not convinced by Enrique's most recent responses attempting to explain his position with this. In fact, I actually wasn't that pinged by it until he explained it, because his explanation came off as fake. But I'll get to that in a bit.

thats like the biggest nonstory ive seen presented as a case on mafia

tbh i had no idea what "Yavin" was until i read the descriptions, at which point it was a bit of a no-brainer. like really? the place is literally the civvie base where the civvies do cool things in the movies. i DID consider my options (tattooine, endor) up until i found out about yavin. but then when it looked so good, surely i was missing something that kept people away from it? nobody gave it any consideration so i just put it down to lack of familiarity and went ahead and voted.

like i dont even understand what the baddie logic behind anything there would be.

From this point almost 24 hours ago all the way to now, Enrique has been doing nothing but explaining himself and re-explaining himself and being defensive and being over-defensive. It just looks really bad. Maybe when he starts talking about something other than other people's thoughts on him I'll be more comfortable with his alignment, but as of right now, GTH, based on his ISO I would say he looks like:

SCUM

So this obviously looks good for Z (but would be irrelevant if the Hutts didn't know who Greedo was). Again, if I'm being super paranoid I could see the last paragraph as being coaching/prodding and hedgey (laying out a specific condition which Enrique could easily meet in order to "clear" him in Z's eyes, thereby allowing Z to justify changing her mind on him later if she needed to). Bt of course, with the uncertainty around the status of who-knows-what-about-who on the Hutt team, making any definitive reads here is tricky.

bcornett24

I know for anyone who's reading this it looks like I'm getting lazier and lazier with these analyses but I swear to God I just had a bunch of prominent posters in a row at first and now I have a bunch of extremely minimal posters in a row. But luckily, bcornett has more to offer read-wise than the last few. I even have material I feel like quoting!

Ok, so for the srs bsns I promised:

1) Voting Tatooine. Less for movie reasons and more because if we want info about Jabba's plans and our operatives found his plans in his palace, it makes sense to think his palace is a good place to start the search.

2) DDL, I can't decide whether it's civ-ish or a baddie move to run through all the possible ways you'd catch a baddie based on the planet mechanic before we get a chance to actually use any of the methods. Consider me slightly pinged, there.

I'm rather confused why the focus of the conversation happens to be on the 2nd statement russ made here and not the first. I would encourage everybody to read the statement in red. To me this comes across as a scum hunting for third party players (or vise-versa).

I find this to be a very anti-town statement. What does everybody else think?

After thinking about it, I'm not sure I agree. It's almost too easy for Russ to be pegged as slipping with the "our operatives" comment. I saw his game in TH and while his tone seemed a bit off to me there (and it does here too) I don't think I share this particular ping. Maybe when I go through Russ' ISO I'll think differently, but right now I disagree. But as a wise man known as MP once hinted to me, I shouldn't think someone is suspicious just because I disagree with them. :P I think this post and the one before it speak well of bcornett (at least among the more minimal posters) but then there is this:

I've read all the content this far and will be posting after work here in another 5 to 6 hours.

It's been more than 5 to 6 hours good sir, WHERE ARE YOUR THOUGHTS?! Just kidding, but seriously, as of right now he seems to be genuinely scumhunting so I'd like to see more of it. GTH I think he is:

TOWN

This is perhaps more interesting/useful, since bcornett was Jabba and a Hutt-Z would have btsc with him.
So the caveat at the very beginning is super interesting and perhaps over-defensive? Like, Z is a bit nervous that she went over-the-top with clearing bcornett, and added in the opening bit in case anyone was like "Why did you say all of two lines about xplayer and so much about bcornett, who wasn't exactly a huge poster??". Also, I'm not sure her analysis and comments are so robust as to require that kind of caveat. The quote is long, but her comments are really kind of neither here-nor-there. She cautiously disagrees with his read of Russ, then tosses in a jokey line (distraction! Look how comfortable I am!), then says bcornett's posts "speak well of him" without giving any reason why....making me wonder why she bothered quoting in the first place, and why she claims that bcornett has "things worth quoting!", since her analysis of him really has nothing to do with the quote she pulled. So that reads to me as a bit disingenuous (she isos several other players without feeling the need to quote them, so it's not like she was just adhereing to a format. She chose to pull that quote, but based her read on vagueness and nothing that really rendered the quote neccessary), and the opening caveat seems paranoid and preemptively defensive. Writing about teammates is HARD, and full of second guessing, especially when you're choosing to town-read them. So this is a legit ping moment for me.

After all the isos, Z goes pretty hard at Bass...a suspicion that she has since dropped, it seems? Maybe something happens later to change her mind, or maybe I'm just misremembering Z's current stance on Bass.

Are you currently civilian golden?

You don't seem too dedicated to the belief that Golden doesn't have much content. And what are you implying with "currently"?

Z questions bcornett here, but since I honestly cannot parse this sentence, even after having read it in context, I can't make absolutely nothing of it. Seems pretty inconsequential, either way.

Are you currently civilian golden?

You don't seem too dedicated to the belief that Golden doesn't have much content. And what are you implying with "currently"?

Both of these have been discussed in several later posts as well as a detail iso of golden. Have you had the time to read them yet?

At the time of that post I had not fully caught up. Consider that statement void.

Takes back whatever it was she meant by her earlier question. Nice way to have an interaction with a teammate in the thread without having to suspect them, perhaps? Or maybe just totally innoccuous.

Votes Bass Day 1.

Holy fuck that took me FOREVER, and that was only Day fucking 1!!
My conclusions thus far are below. Obviously this read-through is totally incomplete, but I have spent TWO HOURS AT LEAST on this, and I have to go do something useful with my life now.

Spoiler: show

Based mainly on her Day 1 ISO of bcornett, which I think was pretty odd in the context of her other ISOs, I'm leaning slightly Hutt-Z thus far. Not far enough that further investigation won't change my mind, but that bcornett post is, in hindsight, really sticking in my craw.

[a2thezebra]

Okay, so I see players suspect me suddenly. Well, that's great timing, because my stress levels are through the roof right now and I don't really have the time to afford to be here right now, but had to make my final vote in Tree Mafia so like the addict I am, I just had to check. I'm only here to catch up, sorry for not being around to engage the thread.

I realize my contributions haven't been supatown level since earlier in the game, but I really just don't have the time (try juggling research assistant work, three PhD-level classes at end of semester, finals, teaching, trying to figure out my dissertation, and independent research of my own so that I can actually teach at a decent enough university. I shouldn't have signed up for one game, let alone two, before my winter break, but I take complete responsibility for my decision, and if you all feel as though I've not contributed my weight to this game and you find me truly suspicious enough for that (or other reasons) out of all the candidates to give me your vote, so be it, but you won't catch a mafia. I'll be around tomorrow after my exam (which I'm pretty sure I've mentioned I am busy until the 8th about 10 million times in this thread AND Tree Mafia, zebra, so thanks for reading my posts ) to defend myself further if necessary, and, more importantly, try my best to hunt some mafia.

No problem MP, and thanks for reading mine where I've already acknowledged that.

I've been reading Dom as bad for some time and it's getting worse. MP, while I appreciate his recent off-topic contributions, I have to be honest in saying that I feel he's been dodging scumhunting lately. I understand he's busy but I find it unnerving that he has enough time to catch up every time he checks in, but lately never enough time to make any contributions to catching scum. He's been more active with on-topic effort in Tree Mafia, actually. I could let this go if his more recent posts were convincingly told, but aside from the off-topic content, they don't read genuine to me.

I even made clear that my suspicion of you was not stemmed from you being busy recently specifically so you wouldn't misunderstand it when you were catching up in the thread. But even though I made that clear, and you clearly caught up, you still misrepresent what my suspicion of you actually is. How convenient. This post I'm responding to here is also a fine example of what I'm talking about in the quoted post right above. MP has enough time to catch up in the thread, defend himself here (quite in-depth too) when necessary, ask questions and even post reads lists, but it's all fluff. A valiant effort to disguise a lack of scumhunting given how busy MP is, but he hasn't gone after anyone. He mentions his Russtifinko suspicion early in the game, which is funny, because my recent issue with MP (which apparently is disingenuous) is based in the observation that his scumhunting efforts have evaporated into thin air, while his quantity of posts in general have not. That makes it interesting that he would name-drop his Russtifinko suspicion early, early in the game as a defense of the proposition that he has been vocal about his suspicions. And he's right...regarding early in the game. He's gotten busier since early in the game and again, I understand that, but then why, with what little time and energy he has to dedicate to the thread, does he use it up on anything other than hunting scum? He is being deceitful. He said here that he's only here to catch up. First of all, he's been saying that frequently recently. Second, it's not true. He had enough to catch up as well as defend himself quite thoroughly. He says he's not around to engage the thread but he is engaging the thread here to make himself look better.

To defend against and comment on some things I've seen quickly (by my standards):

1) Dom, you keep saying my suspicion of you was a NO U. While the timing may appear to be a NO U and I can see why you proclaim that, I don't care that you think it's a NO U. I gave specific reasons for dropping you down my list, and that was purely a result of the fact that you voted for Mac essentially for saying he's arrogant, and I thought your progression of train of thought exhibited in those posts I displayed was not believable. In addition, after finding that content particularly suspicious, I tried to recall your progression of suspects throughout the game, and what I could recall is that I thought you've been hopping suspects. If that impression is incorrect, I apologize, but even though I started looking into your posts last Day cycle, I didn't have the time to sift through them in detail. I appreciate you mentioning your specific suspects in a recent post. I promise I'll take a look when I get the chance to see whether my suspicion is founded or not (and I'm pretty sure I said something just like this before, so please don't pretend as if I'm saying stuff that isn't true without disclaiming it as my perception). If you have specific points for me to address about you or anyone else, I'll see what I can do tomorrow.

Considering the underlined, in which you are willing to acknowledge that a major part of your Dom suspicion could be false by your own admission, I'd like people to take a look at your posts yesterday and see how vocal you were in suspecting him and throwing shade on him. Dom is of the opinion that Mac's suspicion of him as well as mine is also unfounded, but the thread says otherwise. In MP's case, it doesn't.

2) I don't understand where the accusation is coming from with respect to me not having suspects. I've been consistently providing my rainbow lists with my detailed thoughts regarding individuals, and explaining why I suspect players all game, and I've had suspects from the very beginning of the game (Russtifinko) onward. i haven't had the time to conduct seriously thorough ISO and other analyses, because I'm busy as fuck. I'm not sure what benchmark my contributions to this game are being held against, but they're clearly not being held to the same benchmark as other players such as Sorsha, who is conveniently coasting every single Day period without getting enough traction/discussion, or countless others who I feel have been less transparent with their suspicions than I have. But if that's not the benchmark or reason, then can someone explain to me why I'm getting eyeballed for not having suspects? Because it's flat out untrue.

You have suspects, but you don't go after them. That's the problem, and misrepresenting the suspicion against you that is shared by multiple people isn't going to do you any good. Even regarding your Russtifinko suspicion from much earlier in the game (which you use as a defense here for your most recent lack of scum-hunting contributions), you didn't seem to pursue it to a realistic and genuine extent in hindsight. What has happened to it now? Are you worried we will find you in an act of hypocrisy if you still read him as scum while using RL as a defense for your own alignment being town?

3) sig, I've been consistently reading you as town all game so my GTH read of you shouldn't have come as any surprise. I think you've been contributing and trying to hunt in a genuine way and nothing has changed my mind about that all game, and I'm pretty sure you will find this expressed in my reads at some point if you ISO me.

I recommend ISO'ing MP as well sig, and remember that reads aren't everything. Scumhunting is scumhunting and MP is lacking in it. The only thing that's expressed in MP's reads is that he reads some people as scum. He isn't going after anyone.

4) Regarding the Rox tracking theory, all I can say is that it is incorrect. I would suggest looking through Roxy's posts to see who she suspected, because if she tracked any killer, it definitely wasn't me. I frankly don't fully understand where Roxy's mafia read of me was even coming, but I get the sense she was mafia reading both me and zebra to some degree based on the way we were playing this game aggressively (and I think she called zebra manipulative, but I don't remember her saying anything like that about me).

I'm 90% certain it was you, hence you suddenly dropping from middle to very low on my reads list upon Roxy's flip. Her suspicion of me was well-documented and vocal, while her suspicion of you, besides reading you as scum, was strangely absent from any further elaboration.

5) Mac (and zebra), regarding my meta, I can hardly think of any games where I've even remotely come close to endgame, because I systematically get lynched in many games that I play. The only two games that come to mind on The Syndicate are Are You Being Served? and Clue: The Movie, both of which were civilian (but distracted) games of mine, and I firmly believe I only lasted so long in both because I was far from full form (and in AYBS? I had a role that gained a role check if I missed the vote and got people to talk about my ridiculous reason for missing it... lots of fun, haha, but produced an unconventional style from me I would say). You can find those two games in the old Side Missions subforum in the Museum. Off the top of my head I literally cannot think of any other game here on The Syndicate where I made it to endgame without weird circumstances. Doctor Who I made it to endgame, but only because I was outed as a civilian Doctor (but resurrected and then secretly recruited by a secret role, lol). Monopoly and Biblical I made it to endgame but only because I replaced back in after dying. Occultism I only made it to endgame because I was a civilian, killed, then resurrected. WWE was a good game of mine where I was mafia, but I was sacrificed via lynch pretty early on. So... I don't really get to make it to endgame.

Thank you for listing those games, I'll be sure to take a look. I really don't want to jump to conclusions with my read of you so I'm leaving room for doubt. And I feel your pain, I rarely make it to endgame myself. Also, good luck on that exam, I mean it.

linki @ Canuck - Ooooh, this will be fun.

[a2thezebra]

I am not going through all 300+ of your posts to find the ones that I'm talking about. I'm just not doing that-- I don't have the time nor do I have the energy.

You HAVEN'T really given concrete reasons why I'm bad, but okay-- whatever you say.


Your suspicion of Golden is reaching to me for the following reasons:
-I doubt Crumb's role would be so obvious.
-I doubt Golden would be so obvious if the role were so obvious.
-I doubt Golden threw his teammates under the bus in the way he did. Your timeline is illogical to me. It requires Golden to turn on people and trust them and turn on people multiple times to work.

He gave you concrete reasons (that both MP and myself agree with) in the very post you're quoting. And are you implying you think his suspicion of Golden is disingenuous, or simply incorrect?

I also find it interesting Roxy our tracker had MP down as scum. Notice roxy also said if you want to get a baddie vote for me. I don't think she said this to get lynched, I think she was being honest. We know she was the tracker so that means, she tracked someone and found out they were bad. I think she tracked MP and saw him targeting someone. This would explain her sudden scum read on MP. I think if MP is bad he is a member of the Empire, he is fostering the idea that the Empire team is inactive, yet hasn't really helped scum hunt for the mafia team.

Nailed it.

[Dom]

I am not going through all 300+ of your posts to find the ones that I'm talking about. I'm just not doing that-- I don't have the time nor do I have the energy.

You HAVEN'T really given concrete reasons why I'm bad, but okay-- whatever you say.


Your suspicion of Golden is reaching to me for the following reasons:
-I doubt Crumb's role would be so obvious.
-I doubt Golden would be so obvious if the role were so obvious.
-I doubt Golden threw his teammates under the bus in the way he did. Your timeline is illogical to me. It requires Golden to turn on people and trust them and turn on people multiple times to work.

He gave you concrete reasons (that both MP and myself agree with) in the very post you're quoting. And are you implying you think his suspicion of Golden is disingenuous, or simply incorrect?

I lean disingenuous.

[Dom]

If MP is invested in lynching baddies, where did his Glorf/Daisy suspicion go? Where did his Russ suspicion go? I thought he thought baddies might be laying low? Russ has 20 posts.

[a2thezebra]

I am not going through all 300+ of your posts to find the ones that I'm talking about. I'm just not doing that-- I don't have the time nor do I have the energy.

You HAVEN'T really given concrete reasons why I'm bad, but okay-- whatever you say.


Your suspicion of Golden is reaching to me for the following reasons:
-I doubt Crumb's role would be so obvious.
-I doubt Golden would be so obvious if the role were so obvious.
-I doubt Golden threw his teammates under the bus in the way he did. Your timeline is illogical to me. It requires Golden to turn on people and trust them and turn on people multiple times to work.

He gave you concrete reasons (that both MP and myself agree with) in the very post you're quoting. And are you implying you think his suspicion of Golden is disingenuous, or simply incorrect?

I lean disingenuous.

I see, that helps.

If MP is invested in lynching baddies, where did his Glorf/Daisy suspicion go? Where did his Russ suspicion go? I thought he thought baddies might be laying low? Russ has 20 posts.

[a2thezebra]

The poll has no deadline, whaaaaaat

[Golden]

Trackers aren't foolproof, but it is still relevant that Roxy had MP down as scum.

Mind you, she also had Eloh down and I think that read was wrong. But maybe that was more just because they were clashing.

I will say - I've been offered a sum of credits to vote MP today, so if the case is convincing enough (or, if MP is clearly not going to be lynched), then that is the way I intend to vote today. On the other hand, it seems kind of horrid, even if the case is good, to force MP to defend too much today. It's just not going to be viable for him, so I'm conflicted about it.

[a2thezebra]

Trackers aren't foolproof, but it is still relevant that Roxy had MP down as scum.

Mind you, she also had Eloh down and I think that read was wrong. But maybe that was more just because they were clashing.

I will say - I've been offered a sum of credits to vote MP today, so if the case is convincing enough (or, if MP is clearly not going to be lynched), then that is the way I intend to vote today. On the other hand, it seems kind of horrid, even if the case is good, to force MP to defend too much today. It's just not going to be viable for him, so I'm conflicted about it.

That's the thing, all of the other players Roxy listed as scum were well-documented, and all of them besides MP were more likely than not because she was clashing with them, myself included.

[Golden]

I agree with that, zebra. I think it likely roxy's read on MP came from tracking.

I just mean tracking is not foolproof in that someone else can target the same person at the same time. It's just one piece of a puzzle.

[a2thezebra]

Granted. Do you agree with the suspicions of MP outside of that theory?

[Golden]

Granted. Do you agree with the suspicions of MP outside of that theory?

I have to have time to consider them properly. I've really only skimmed most of the longer posts so far.

[a2thezebra]

Okay I've read Canuck's analysis and I like it. The entire thing runs very objective and leads a lot of room for doubt and discourse. I even wish it were true. Two things to clarify:

1. When I said "I don't buy it" I was referring to Enrique.
2. My suspicion of Bass didn't drop until he was lynched and flipped town. I have yet to suspect Bass 2.0.

And one less objective thing to defend:

Surely you noticed Canuck as you were going through my ISO's that my energy was deteriorating at rapid speed. My Russ ISO from Day 1 is perhaps the laziest of all and it was the last, so if this helps at all regarding bcornett, there were quite a few times where I quoted things that I felt were worth quoting not because I had anything to comment on myself, but because I was interested to hear if anyone else had anything to say by bumping them.

[sig]

I agree with that, zebra. I think it likely roxy's read on MP came from tracking.

I just mean tracking is not foolproof in that someone else can target the same person at the same time. It's just one piece of a puzzle.

True it isn't fool proof, but I've had some suspicion of MP for awhile it like the beginning of my Enrique suspicion is a gut read. Know for people reading me as town. I don't like it, I said earlier I think someone reading me as town is scum, I just wasn't sure who.
The more I think about my interactions with MP the more likely it is that he is scum, also I believe if he is mafia then Dom isn't. Or at least he isn't on the same team. One post from Dom really caught my eye, I believe Dom much like my belief for golden aren't part of the rebel alliance, yet I don't think either are mafia.

I'm curious though Golden were you offered credits and can you choose not to vote for MP? Since if so you might not be the only one. I'll need to think about this MP forced votes, if it is true I don't think it indicates alignment, as a player tried to force Mac to vote for Roxy. Roxy was read as mafia by a few people so this could be a civ power, independent power, or possibly a Hutt power. I'll keep the forced vote in mind when I ISO MP. WHich will be done later today.

linki: I suspect Bass 2.0 since I still believe people who were replaced out could be scum. So this lists include Matt, Bass, Llama, Space, and Bulls. Obviously not all are scum but I'm thinking we have at least one scum within this bunch.

[a2thezebra]

I actually don't have a scum read on a single one of the people who replaced out.

[thellama73]

The thread monopolization
(or at least domination)
by MacDougal and Golden
doesn't my gameplay embolden.
It's tedious and boring.
It leaves me just snoring.
Zebra's the one I'd rather lynch.
I'd say he's mafia, it's a cinch.
Follow me, all!
We'll have a ball.
Zebra is destined to fall.

[sig]

My laptop overheated and a good portion of my ISO of MP is gone know. Here is the portion which I saved in Microsoft
MovingPicture

So some day zero fluff, has some interactions with Sorsha and MM but that doesn't point to alignment. One thing worth quoting though.

Thanks for analyzing this poll, folks!

I'm voting Alderaan, just to make the poll a bit more interesting, and because some people think it sounds OK. I doubt Epi made the results obvious though, if there are any (besides serving as a mechanic for the role that Golden pointed out).

Why did you quote this Sig? Good question and the answer is simply if MP is mafia and if he is as good a scum player as I think then him voting for this planet makes sense. It isn't seen as being to rebel like so he wasn't trying to appear more civvie. Yet it wasn't a planet that could be seen as bad.
This isn't really a ping, but I do think it is worth noting.

Gun to my head, I actually find Russtifinko suspicious in that exchange. He seems to express two distinct slight pings of both DDL and zebra, but it seems a bit opportunistic for him to say on the one hand that he is NOT pinged by DDL's logic but that he was pinged by DDL overexplaining it. Could possibly be a disingenuous way for Russtifinko to throw mud at two players who are relatively easier to lynch than the rest of us, particularly this early, since you both tend to post a lot and easily misinterpreted.

Some suspicion of Russ he later casts a fake vote for Russ. Know Enrique and Brian both tried to get Russ lynched, as did Glorfindel (know Space) I'd find it odd for the whole mafia team to try and get a player lynched, but this is the beginning of what I see as an attempt to get Russ lynched. Which was later used by Glorfidnel as an excuse not to vote, and as an attempt to save Enrique.
Slight scum ping from this post.

Okay some thoughts, MP lasts alot and I mean alot of questions. This isn't scummy in itself, but it seems like he is casing out others thoughts then actually giving his own, this makes him involved in the game and will allow him to join a bandwagon or start one based on others thoughts. He has some interesting interactions with Brian and Enrique. Some of it seems calculated to save them, but I'm not convinced. I believe MP is more likely to be a member of the Empire. Know two things throughout Day 1 I've noticed MP asks lots of questions and comes across as very helpful/friendly. This is giving me a bad gut feeling. He seems like he is trying to hard to be seen as a townie and be involved. Here are some quotes.

As of right now, I feel strongest that zebra is town. This is subject to change depending on how others post, but overall it has to do with how contributive her post are and fingering all people she finds suspect/inquires about. My neutral reads would be people like movingpictures07, MacDougall and MetalMarsh89. These are players that I've noticed post since the start of day 1. Not saying others haven't posted, but I mostly view on mobile(gonna have to change that if I plan to play serious) and so I haven't critically read many post and really only remember post if I notice an avatar I see. Which is why I want to re-read the phase when I have time.

As someone who has never played with almost every player here, I'm particularly interested in any elaboration you can provide.

This is interesting mainly since Savage was killed by the Empire. I see this is the third post MP engaged him in, and the first post Savage mentioned MP directly. I will be watching any interaction MP has with dead players especially with those killed by the Empire.

http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 81#p198981

The above is a long post by MP, in this post the main things that draw my attention is his soft defense of bcornett, his ping on Enrique, and his interaction with Zebra. This post leads me to think he isn't on team Hutt.

I've got to tell you guys, I feel so far out of my depth right now. From my limited experience, what passes for evidence this early on in Mafia games is often little more than a combination of bravado and overactive imagination. All I can see is some particularly harsh accusations being thrown around by some VERY enthusiastic players. I have been around long enough not to mistake aggressiveness in these games with Mafia guilt so a couple of feuding prominent players (at this stage of the game) doesn't convince me that one is necessarily Mafia. From what I've read, Golden seems to make a lot of sense to me...

Like I said, I'm having a lot of trouble trying to follow you guys...

Glorfindel, as with Savage, you're new to many of the players here. This means your evaluations won't be blinded by town or mafia-colored glasses due to past experience, this cumulative thing we call meta.

I can understand fully that you feel lost; I know how it is playing on foreign sites in talkative games where you know no one. It's pretty tough.

You say Golden makes a lot of sense. How so? On which points?

Any non-Golden related thoughts?

Some prompting from MP to Glorfindel, first sign of a connection between the two I see. Null post, but when MP flips mafia I think there is a good chance Glorfidnel would be on his team.

Spoiler: show

Alright, I've got about 12 minutes, and then I'll be back about 2 hours after that if there are any responses.

Enrique - I look forward to endgame when you find out that I most definitely did not have any info whatsoever.

Dom - Really? I get pinged because my contributions have been "nothing useful", and now you vote for me because I dared to contribute? Haha when I flip, I hope peeps look at you first. What did you think of the few ISO's I made, whether they were a stupid endeavor or not? I'm an easy effin' lynch thanks to Zebra, and you just throwing your vote on me without even giving me a chance to respond earns you an

Dragon - Again, so...If I don't contribute, I get sussed by folks, if I do contribute, I get sussed by people. Peachy.

Mac - You make me feel bad when you say "Matt fuckin' F of all people"

sig - Please when you can be bothered to read the thread, answer my question.

Zebra - If you don't want to answer my questions, fine. If it's too hard for you to put these supposed answers you've already given me in a nice simple post, then wow. Can you at least take each of my three questions, and direct me to which of your already 100 posts I can find those answers in? No? I'm guessing not.

Someone said I was doing half assed ISO's (Dom maybe?), please elaborate.

Golden - Whenever you get a chance, please give me specific examples where you think my ISOs have all been disingenuous. Again, NONE of them were so this should be fun.

MP - I think you said you'd be busy today, but again, please answer my question to you when you get a chance (and whether I'm dead or not). Thanks!

Right now without even rereading Dom, I know he came in here and threw a vote on Alderaan w/o explanation, and now threw a vote on me without even giving me a chance to respond. Eff that, if Zebra gets her wish and I'm lynched today, look at Dom first (but yeah, keep a close eye on Zebra and Golden too if they don't answer my questions)

Alright, it's about 5 till noon my time, I should be back around 2:30, 3. Peeps, I am not Mafia. I did NOT have info. If I don't contribute, I'm bad in some people's eyes, if I do contribute, I'm bad again. Wtf really?

Matt F, does this mean you suspect Dom, and does it mean he is your top mafia read?

Would you be able to provide any town/mafia evaluations when you return, and talk about where you think you'll be voting today?

Posts like this is what ping me in regards to MP. He mentions Dom (who is know trying to lynch) in such a way that it is almost like he is prompting Matt to say Dom is a scum read. Allowing MP to build a case against Dom based on what town players have said.

MP continues to ask people why they read Enrique as scum while barely weighing in himself about Enrique.

I don't know what to do right now. I'm not even particularly sold on Enrique or Matt F, so I'm feeling a bit nervous about the wagons that are forming.

Well, I'm sticking with my evaluation. I doubt Enrique's sincerity more than Matt F's, and I don't understand why Enrique voted off to Russ if he thinks Matt is a liar and is a civilian concerned about his own life. The tally just now is 6-3 Matt F to Enrique, so let's make it 6-4.

votes Enrique

Asks alot of questions about each of them, then ends up voting for Enrique. I'm reading this as scum trying to decided which wagon would make him look more civvie. He also voted for Enrique when Matt is winning, this lets him be on the wagon that isn't leading so he won't be responsibly for what Matt is when he flips.

Spoiler: show

I get good vibes from Zebra, despite the aggressive playstyle (which is normal for her :P ) MP, you have asked on at least two occasions about people's opinion of Zebra, and because of that, it appears as though you're pushing for something without jumping into it. Care to elaborate on your own feelings about her? (and apologies if I've missed your opinion if you've stated it)

nijuukyugou, I snipped most of your post just to refer to what is addressed to me.

This post is in regards to zebra and is suggested to be read by everyone re: their reads of zebra and game-breaking players in general.

The reasons I've asked on at least two occasions what people think of zebra all stem from the fact that zebra is the most commonly read town player in the thread at the moment. She also is the most commonly read town player with regards to players voluntarily giving an opinion of her, and that's something to be noted because she's producing content at near-JJJ like levels so far. Why? I have a few specific elaborations.

1) Beware placing too much on "Effort" = Town. Although it typically can be a huge indicator and should be considered, it isn't always a sure thing, and assuming it while dropping healthy skepticism can potentially break the game for the civilians.

If zebra lasts a significant portion of the game and continues producing content at this rate, that's amazingly awesome if she's town and I couldn't appreciate it more, but it can be game-breakingly dangerous if zebra is pulling the supatown long haul as mafia. I realize Golden, myself, Mac, and possibly others (such as Metalmarsh) can produce a similar conundrum, but zebra is unarguably out-contenting everyone so far.

I played and witnessed some games in the last block of 10 games on RYM, and with Maffies (RYM Mafia Awards) happening now, I've been informed of the games I missed. This has relevance because there are three occasions that immediately come to mind where mafia players ended winning in LYLO because they had supatowned and players stopped fully investigating and questioning their behavior: Strawhenge in RYM #81, rundontwalk in RYM #86, and Diiny in RYM #89.

Want another key example that happened in recent memory, except from The Syndicate? Golden in Economics. This will be remembered for many good reasons. By all means the civilians should have won that game due to sheer effort expended and success in lynching every mafia except one, but they didn't. G-Man got lynched in LYLO and Golden successfully ran away with the game. While JJJ and others put up a fight in terms of analyzing and interrogating behavior, Golden got away with it precisely because he played a brilliant game. The clincher is that if players, myself definitely included (I tunneled way too hard on G-Man before my death, distracting from Golden and other potential suspects), had pushed Golden more and put his behavior under the microscope, he could have been uncovered. Instead, G-Man's obvious "mafia" behavior was really a wacky civilian.

So while it's great that people are town reading her for effort, let's be a bit wary about automatically assuming she is town purely because of effort, and continue to push her to fully explain her thoughts so that we can determine whether this content is genuine. That should be the driving force behind these town reads -- genuine town effort in quality and quantity, not just quantity. So I'm trying to discern what is driving these reads.

Nonetheless, on the flipside, I cannot emphasize enough that I do not suggest scrutinizing her unfairly or by default because she is producing so much content. As we've seen in many games, players who produce more content, particularly in the first few stages of the game, can be much easier to be "pinged" by and suspected because with each bit of incremental content there is a bit more that someone can scrutinize, either consciously or subconsciously (be bothered by). Every time someone makes public an opinion, it can be potentially misinterpreted by a civilian or manipulated by the mafia, so producing opinionated content is a risky endeavor. That on its own can indicate a civilian mindset, especially since mafia have to fabricate all of the content, but it's precisely why players need to speak up when they think there is fabrication and explain why they think there is.

2) Pressing players to express opinions on one player who is producing so much content that almost automatically warrants a GTH opinion, particularly this early in the game, forces players into a situation where they have to throw out an opinion, which then serves as evidence later in the game.

Regardless of zebra's alignment, her sheer amount of effort thus far has forced players to either voluntarily or by request (typically mine so far) give an opinion on her. This is a good way to get even players who are either (1) civilians legitimately having a difficult time digesting and analyzing all of the content this early or (2) mafia cautiously attempting to withhold opinions in the first couple of game phases to express an opinion, something that can be analyzed for connections to zebra (if she is mafia), unwarranted changes in opinion, and any other matter of sincerity later in the game.

The more that player X posts (in this case, zebra), particularly if that player has produced a ridiculously high amount of content, the harder it gets for either civilian or mafia to not form an opinion on player X, whether it is sincere (the former) or nefarious (the latter).

Dom was wondering what the point of making so many GTH and endless ISOs at this early stage in the game is, with regards to zebra. If she is civilian, I'd imagine she is trying to force herself to analyze and form opinions on as much content as possible, so that she can attempt to solve the game as quickly as possible. Not only that, but producing so much content then allows her to engage others in the thread actively about all of that content. If she is mafia, then it's all about flooding the thread with misdirection and playing the supatown long haul, which is a risky game, but can be rewarding if performed incredibly well and town stops questioning (see examples above).

3) I am personally having trouble discerning zebra's true intentions, and I want the feedback from others to help me.

By asking people what their GTH is of a certain post or player, I'm trying to get people to actively think about what's going on in the thread as much as possible (refer to 2), but it is as much that as I am trying to get feedback. If there's something I've noticed over the years, it's that I perform much better by feeding off of others. Unfortunately, that means I've had many terrible civilian games. This past year, I've consistently noticed that I performed better as a civilian when engaged in the thread by players who employ these kinds of methods (JaggedJimmyJay, Sloonei, and from our own camp, FZ., Golden, etc.), and in witnessing those players I've also realized that they employ a style I've always tried to attain as a civilian but never could quite hold on to (usually I end up tunneling or I get lynched or for whatever reason I go off the deep end). Consequently, I'm trying to revamp my approach this game employing those methods to see how I fair with it.

4) Civilians need to work together as much as they can, nonetheless with the understanding that this game is all about deception.

Lastly, (and I'll keep this one brief) I've noticed that civilians lose too many games here because they fail to attempt to engage each other in the thread, instead defaulting to the "I'm all alone, trust no one, hold onto my thoughts and content because no one else deserves to see them". I don't want that to happen here, so I'm actively trying to prevent it.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yikes, I had no intention of making a post that long, but it is what it is. I would say "I hope that answers your question", but I'm certain it did. :P If somehow it didn't, let me know, and I can clarify on any of these points (or anything missing).

You can find my GTH read on zebra here on my revised Day 1 rainbow list. I have her as a slight town read.

You mentioned I could be perceived as pushing something. However, that would be in direct conflict with the slight town read I have for zebra on my rainbow list (as well as other mentions I've had of her), so not only would it be a terrible mafia strategy but it's a very manipulative one that could be uncovered very quickly (since you made the suggestion yourself already).

I don't feel I have the time or the need to update my rainbow list, so consider my opinion of zebra unchanged. Matt F's SK flip doesn't affect my reads of players substantively since he was on his own, and for analyzing voting records his flip can be assumed to be civilian-like (mafia from both times still could have bandwagoned onto him or attempted to save a teammate, not knowing he would flip SK).

Alright, well, see you folks at some point in Day 2. I've burned way too much time!

This is another post that seems like something a civvie would do, but comes across as disingenuous to me.

So like I said at the top I'm not spending my time requoting everything I quoted. I'll do a summery and then keepgoing normally.
MP reacted very strongly when Enrique said he and Russ had BTSC, I find this very strange. He also starts trying to get Enrique lynched and puts much more effort into it.

His post about Low poster not posting reads as twothings to me
1. Anger his team is MIA
2. Or and attempt to distance himself from his team of MIA people, he will then be seen astaking a hard stance on them and therefor less likely to be a teammate.

I laid it all out with different theories earlier this phase I think.
If any could submit it a kill it is less likely to be sure, but getting blocked/protected is also a low possibility. I also find it strange nobody was silenced until you. Which could suggest at the very least the silencer was inactive. Or I could be wrong and they could have purposely not done anything to confuse us.

linki: Just the way it is written reminds me of civ Glorfindel, though I did have a bad gut feeling about him earlier. I would prefer someone else lynched tomorrow, but wouldn't oppose a Glorfindel lynch to much.

Yeah, I remember that post. Your theories make sense, but I think it's tough to figure it out beyond any sort of speculation.

Earlier this game you disagreed with my theories, but knowthey make sense that is strange.


SO overall MP has posted alot of questions, but very few reads of his own. He contributes, but hasn't done any real scum hunting, this is a major mafia ping to me. I also believe his posts come across as very disingenuous. I don't believe he is a Hutt but I think he is a member of team Empire. I also find the fact that someone is trying to force votes to MP to be telling. I believe that whoever did this did it in an attempt to catch a member of team Empire. This is actually the same sort of ability that was used on me in Dune, I had the trust ofquite a few people and was only lynched because people were forced to vote for me.
I find his reaction to Enrique after Enrique accuses him of being in BTSC with Russ to be over the top. I think no I'm certain MP is mafia. I encourage everyone to read over his posts and see what they think, but imo it is rather clear he is mafia. I will be placing my vote on him know, and will return later tonight to talk more.

This was not my best ISO mainly since I lost a huge portion of it and can't rewrite it as I have to go.

[Dom]

MP, you say I'm a questioning player, and I'd say you're doubly so-- however, your questions tend to lead to suspicion and votes while mine (at the time) can seem more probing, random, and nit-picky (I've been told).
Why haven't you pursued your go to suspicions in days?

[thellama73]

Dom finds you suspicious.
Succumb to his wishes.
His questions need addressing,
and you should be confessing.
You're mafia also, I'm guessing.

[a2thezebra]

The thread monopolization
(or at least domination)
by MacDougal and Golden
doesn't my gameplay embolden.
It's tedious and boring.
It leaves me just snoring.
Zebra's the one I'd rather lynch.
I'd say he's mafia, it's a cinch.
Follow me, all!
We'll have a ball.
Zebra is destined to fall.

He's mafia? Who's he? Who are you referring to? I didn't get any elaboration about your Blooper read or your Golden read when you weren't restricted to poetry, and only the vaguest of reasons why I was supposed to be bad when I asked you earlier. How do you expect people to follow you on any of your baddie reads when there's no reasoning behind them? And this suspicion of MP seems to be new. I don't recall you indicating you thought he was bad here. Is this a new thing or are you jumping on the easiest bandwagon at the moment?

[sig]

I would hardly call the MP wagon and easy wagon. Though I know if he is lynched we will get good results.
Llama are you saying Dom and MP are both mafia?

[MacDougall]

Voting for Dom.

[a2thezebra]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaat

[Marmot]

Dibs on a rezz

[DharmaHelper]

I want everyone to post exclusively in Star Wars puns until the lynch post goes up.

[Golden]

What, are you going to force us?

[DharmaHelper]

I want everyone to post exclusively in Star Wars puns until the lynch post goes up.

You don't have to, its just something I want.

[DharmaHelper]

What, are you going to force us?

[sig]

Voting for Dom.

Really? That seems like a revenge vote.

@Dom don't counter vote Mac just because he voted for you, look over MP as well as my case on him. I think you as well as any member that looks at my ISO then reads over MP will see, he is scum.

linki: Lynch post? LYNCH POST????? I thought we had another 24 hours ????!!!

[Marmot]

What's a Jedi's favorite drink?

Qui-Gon Gin

[DharmaHelper]

Voting for Dom.

Really? That seems like a revenge vote.

@Dom don't counter vote Mac just because he voted for you, look over MP as well as my case on him. I think you as well as any member that looks at my ISO then reads over MP will see, he is scum.

linki: Lynch post? LYNCH POST????? I thought we had another 24 hours ????!!!

To clarify, the Day ends tomorrow. Post won't be up for another 24 hours.

[DharmaHelper]

I can see how that might be confusing, I forgot to set a time for the poll, daggummit. 8:30pm EST is fine. Tomorrow.

[Golden]

What, are you going to force us?

You and whose arm?

[a2thezebra]

What if I don't Obi-Wan to?

[Epignosis]

What's a Jedi's favorite drink?

Qui-Gon Gin

I thought it was a Club Yoda in a Solo cup.