[END] Turf Wars: Battle of the Hosts

[Turnip Head]

Also, I see you lurkin, Turnip Head. What's up?

I'm at work nursing a three-day-long hangover. I should be useful soon.

[RadicalFuzz]

We've tried a few different things on JTM. At one point we were getting annoyed with ties so for at least one game we had ties kill all parties involved. Needless to say there weren't any ties that game.

[Matt]

Your suspicion of me feels to me way more like trying to get others to see me in a strange light, and far less like you actually found something suspicious.

The only vote on me I really don't object to the logic is silverwolf, although I think Matt's responses to me earlier seemed genuine

So am I being genuine or not? I mean, I know I'm being genuine, but I'm not sure what your feelings are based on these two posts.

Anywho, back to Sloon...

I don't see how taking a vote off of someone suddenly means you read them as "town". If anything, I'd say that means you suspect them less then you did before.

[Sloonei]

Your suspicion of me feels to me way more like trying to get others to see me in a strange light, and far less like you actually found something suspicious.

The only vote on me I really don't object to the logic is silverwolf, although I think Matt's responses to me earlier seemed genuine

So am I being genuine or not? I mean, I know I'm being genuine, but I'm not sure what your feelings are based on these two posts.

Anywho, back to Sloon...

I don't see how taking a vote off of someone suddenly means you read them as "town". If anything, I'd say that means you suspect them less then you did before.

Wut?

[Golden]

@Matt - I called out your initial suspicion. Then we talked about it a little. And I called your responses genuine.

So, what are you saying. That my read on you should not have progressed at all? That I can't take a different view on your suspicion, and on your responses to me?

At this point, I'll say I no longer find it genuine. You said you'd come back and talk about it later, but you didn't. I really thought you meant you wanted to engage on it, but it has become clear that you didn't really. I just requoted what I wanted you to respond to, and your response was to take two things I said that were clearly at different points in our conversation and make out like they are inconsistent. I don't like it at all.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Luffy are you concerned about getting heat for unfamiliarity, is that why you're calling Soneji to the stand to testify to your behavior?

No. I was defending myself from him.

I'm always concerned about getting heat for a number of reasons, because I think I'm very prone to getting heat. Even more in the forum I came from than in here, now that I think about it.

On the Soneji thing, I just found strange that he had a worse grasp of my meta than I thought he would have, since I have played more than double the amount of games with him than with anyone here.

This was me finding him suspicious, not asking him for validation.

I still haven't formed a decent opinion on him though, because he hasn't posted anymore. The guy seems to have problems being active in Syndicate games, for some reason.

[Matt]

sloon, you described gleam (and others) as "town reads" which is why you did not vote for them, then when it's pointed out you did not really see gleam as "town" at all, you point to a post where you said you were going to take your vote off of him.

What I'm saying is just because you took your vote off of him does not mean you saw him as a "town read".

Linki - Golden, you said you had just sat down to do a read through of the thread for the first time. At one point, you say "LC gets my first rainbow color (light green)", which I assumed to mean he was your first read of the game. Then, 15 minutes later (minus the 4 minutes for fake suss jokes and off topic talk of Canada), you had stated that you would not be voting for six others.

I don't see how you can reasonably make an assumption that six different players won't be getting your vote within 11 minutes. I just don't see it.

[Matt]

Seriously, for real, anyone who disagrees with me...

Take some time, pick a starting point in the game (anywhere is fine), read for 11 straight minutes, and tell me which six voters you think are good to go.

Anyone up for the challenge?

[Matt]

six players*

[Golden]

I don't see how you can reasonably make an assumption that six different players won't be getting your vote within 11 minutes. I just don't see it.

You still aren't responding to my point, Matt.

I could have explained the exact why of my reads for any of the additional six the moment I had posted it. Every one of those reads came from a well reasoned space. In fact, I'd say most or all of them probably existed before the LC one, but I just hadn't identified that I had them yet.

Sloonei's response was to ask me about the reads that he didn't understand. I was able to explain each of them to him.

Your response, then and now, is just to say 'you don't see how it's possible' without any attempt or effort to engage me on how it is possible. You treat it as though it is a fact you have gleaned, rather than question in your mind to be tested.

Answer my questions - do you understand how anyone elses suspicions were formed? If I had said the exact same thing an hour later, even if I'd been off doing other things, would you know any differently? And if you 'don't understand' why didn't you ask? I remember the last time someone tried to read into timings against me - it was Long Con in Bullets Over Broadway. He was bad, using it against me who was not.

I find there to be a certain falseness in your suspicion because of your lack of any effort to question and engage.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Seriously, for real, anyone who disagrees with me...

Take some time, pick a starting point in the game (anywhere is fine), read for 11 straight minutes, and tell me which six voters you think are good to go.

Anyone up for the challenge?

This is assuming Golden needed those 11 minutes to read the entire thread.

When the more likely reality is that he was already caught up when you asked the question and already had a rough impression of most players in his read, and he just took the time to sort them.

[Golden]

Seriously, for real, anyone who disagrees with me...

Take some time, pick a starting point in the game (anywhere is fine), read for 11 straight minutes, and tell me which six voters you think are good to go.

Anyone up for the challenge?

This is so disingenuous it isn't even funny. Are you trying to suggest I had only 11 total minutes of reading of the thread in the entire game? Or that, somehow, the only possible place those 6 reads could come from is the material I read in that 11 minutes, without any other context? Because that is ridiculous, but not only is it ridiculous, it also ignores what I've said to you twice already.

I didn't spend that 11 minutes reading. I was going through the poll figuring out who I had reads on.

@DDL - precisely. Thank you.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

(or that he is full of shit. That's also a likely reality. Point is, he didn't take 11 min to read the whole thread).

[Golden]

(or that he is full of shit. That's also a likely reality. Point is, he didn't take 11 min to read the whole thread).

Point is, Matt spent no effort trying to verify whether my reads were genuine... but is instead focussing entirely on pushing his '11 minutes' to extremes to make me look bad.

[Sloonei]

sloon, you described gleam (and others) as "town reads" which is why you did not vote for them, then when it's pointed out you did not really see gleam as "town" at all, you point to a post where you said you were going to take your vote off of him.

What I'm saying is just because you took your vote off of him does not mean you saw him as a "town read".

Linki - Golden, you said you had just sat down to do a read through of the thread for the first time. At one point, you say "LC gets my first rainbow color (light green)", which I assumed to mean he was your first read of the game. Then, 15 minutes later (minus the 4 minutes for fake suss jokes and off topic talk of Canada), you had stated that you would not be voting for six others.

I don't see how you can reasonably make an assumption that six different players won't be getting your vote within 11 minutes. I just don't see it.

Why do you think you're more capable of assessing the thoughts in my head than I am? I took my vote off him because I stopped thinking he was bad at the time. This means I thought he was good. That is what I call a town read. Why are you even disputing this? I say I have a town read on a guy and your response is "no you don't"? Do you think I'm lying?

[thellama73]

Seriously, for real, anyone who disagrees with me...

Take some time, pick a starting point in the game (anywhere is fine), read for 11 straight minutes, and tell me which six voters you think are good to go.

Anyone up for the challenge?

I could do it in 9 minutes, so I side with Golden.

[DrWilgy]

@Fuzz I was aware of your absence, what of it? Do you think I was trying to attack you while you were away?

Wilgy just because I didn't put a question at the end of that statement doesn't mean I wasn't looking for an answer. With what I know of you I assumed you would respond to that statement as is, and sure enough you did. What's the problem?

The problem is in the difference of how you addressed it. It was abnormal for you Fuzz.

[Matt]

No, I'm not saying it took you 11 minutes to read the thread, Golden. I stated in my challenge to everyone, pick anywhere in the thread to start and go from there until 11 minutes is up.

Anyway, the point wasn't "why did Golden come up with those reads", it is "how did he do so in such a quick amount of time after JUST saying he had his first read in LC".

Here's a new challenge. We're all up to date. Does anyone else in the game currently have six players they won't vote for? You don't even have to say who, just yes or no.

I don't.

[Matt]

Sloon, my point isn't that I can read your mind/thoughts or whatever dramatic shiz you're saying right now.

What I'm saying is that taking a vote off of someone does not necessarily mean you suddenly read them as town. See the difference?

[Sloonei]

@ Matt: but also my initial "wut" was in response to the bottom paragraph of your post, where you seem to say that me removing my vote doesn't mean I see him as town, but then attempt to contradict this by saying I see him as less suspicious. Are these not essentially the same thing?

[thellama73]

Here's a new challenge. We're all up to date. Does anyone else in the game currently have six players they won't vote for? You don't even have to say who, just yes or no.

Llama
Scotty
Chaindeath
Mongoose
Marmot
Epi

[Golden]

Matt, for expletives sake.

Do you have any interest in why I made those reads? Do you care to test at all? Or is the only possible way to get you to see that the entire thing was genuine to get you a hammer and chisel to make your own way out of the tunnel.

I'm not a cop, dude. You are so far up your own theory that you literally can't see how narrow your view of what happened was. I didn't even say 'I would never vote for these 6 today'. I said 'unless something changed'. Something absolutely could have, like any one of them giving me a ping. Literally, one ping would have been enough to take them off my list.

Diiny accused me of not having developed reads, so I put a little time into going through the poll and figuring out who I had reads on. It was like my early attempt at a rainbow, if you will. It is not hard to understand or see. If you cannot go through the poll list and come up with 6 people you lean town on, then that's your reads - not mine.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Here's a new challenge. We're all up to date. Does anyone else in the game currently have six players they won't vote for? You don't even have to say who, just yes or no.

Llama
Scotty
Chaindeath
Mongoose
Marmot
Epi

How does one decide not to vote for Marmot early in the game?

I could take 15 day phases reading marmot's posts and still have no read whether to read him as good or bad.

[Sloonei]

Sloon, my point isn't that I can read your mind/thoughts or whatever dramatic shiz you're saying right now.

What I'm saying is that taking a vote off of someone does not necessarily mean you suddenly read them as town. See the difference?

I do, but I've also stated several times now that I did have him as a town read, and you're trying to tell me this is not true.
But also I am at work now so I can't keep posting.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

[quote="Dragon D. Luffy"How does one decide not to vote for Marmot early in the game?

I could take 15 day phases reading marmot's posts and still have no read whether to read him as good or bad.[/quote]

no idea*

[thellama73]

Here's a new challenge. We're all up to date. Does anyone else in the game currently have six players they won't vote for? You don't even have to say who, just yes or no.

Llama
Scotty
Chaindeath
Mongoose
Marmot
Epi

How does one decide not to vote for Marmot early in the game?

I could take 15 day phases reading marmot's posts and still have no read whether to read him as good or bad.

Well, I already voted for him, so I got it out of my system.

[Matt]

@ Matt: but also my initial "wut" was in response to the bottom paragraph of your post, where you seem to say that me removing my vote doesn't mean I see him as town, but then attempt to contradict this by saying I see him as less suspicious. Are these not essentially the same thing?

My interpretation of moving a vote off of someone is just that you don't find them suss enough to keep your vote on. Not that you suddenly read them as town. From your own statements, I concluded that you would have us believe that you saw gleam as town since you took your vote off of him. I'm just saying that doesn't have to be the case.

Linki - Golden, I just thought it was dishonest to be real with you. If you had simply posted your gut town reads, that's one thing, but this occured 15 minutes after you stated you had just now put together your very first rainbow read.

Seems off.

Linki - Lol Llama. Pick one more. You don't count. :P

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Here's a new challenge. We're all up to date. Does anyone else in the game currently have six players they won't vote for? You don't even have to say who, just yes or no.

Llama
Scotty
Chaindeath
Mongoose
Marmot
Epi

How does one decide not to vote for Marmot early in the game?

I could take 15 day phases reading marmot's posts and still have no read whether to read him as good or bad.

Well, I already voted for him, so I got it out of my system.

I'm avoiding to even put that in my system.

[Scotty]

Here's a new challenge. We're all up to date. Does anyone else in the game currently have six players they won't vote for? You don't even have to say who, just yes or no.

Llama
Scotty
Chaindeath
Mongoose
Marmot
Epi

What makes you trust me? And chaindeath? Why him?

[thellama73]

Linki - Lol Llama. Pick one more. You don't count. :P

Okay, I guess I'm feeling pretty good about Golden right now. He has fended off your attacks admirably.

[thellama73]

Here's a new challenge. We're all up to date. Does anyone else in the game currently have six players they won't vote for? You don't even have to say who, just yes or no.

Llama
Scotty
Chaindeath
Mongoose
Marmot
Epi

What makes you trust me? And chaindeath? Why him?

It was actually your very first post. I can't see a cop posting this:

I find it kind of silly that even our own Don doesn't know who the police are. I mean, they got badges and blue costumes and such. Why is this so hard?

As for chaindeath, I thought he was being scapegoated early for no reason, so I want to avoid voting for him until I have a good reason.

[Golden]

So, Matt, thats it? You are just going to keep saying 'I think it was dishonest' and 'it was odd' and ignore any attempt from others to get you to think?

For the record, since I've given you the opportunity to test this over and over and you've refused.

I liked Mongoose and Silverwolf on a tone level.
SVS and DDL, I liked the approach they took to engaging with DrWilgy's plans at the top of the game (something I had read and participated in).
sloonei and epis approach to questioning and responding to others reminds me of their civvie selves. It felt like there was genuine effort from both to generate reads in their own way.

I probably had all of those six reads before I had LC, but I hadn't identified that I had them until I went through the poll thinking about each person in turn.
In the same look through, I identified that I hadn't really read anyone as bad yet.

This differs from LC, who had a specific idea which, all by itself, gave me a civ vibe. It is easy for me to identify the exact moment at which I got a read on LC, because it was from reading one specific post he wrote.

All of my reads were entirely genuine. Any one of them, I could have told you immediately after I posted them the reasons why I did them.

[Matt]

So, Matt, thats it? You are just going to keep saying 'I think it was dishonest' and 'it was odd' and ignore any attempt from others to get you to think?

For the record, since I've given you the opportunity to test this over and over and you've refused.

I liked Mongoose and Silverwolf on a tone level.
SVS and DDL, I liked the approach they took to engaging with DrWilgy's plans at the top of the game (something I had read and participated in).
sloonei and epis approach to questioning and responding to others reminds me of their civvie selves. It felt like there was genuine effort from both to generate reads in their own way.

I probably had all of those six reads before I had LC, but I hadn't identified that I had them until I went through the poll thinking about each person in turn.
In the same look through, I identified that I hadn't really read anyone as bad yet.

This differs from LC, who had a specific idea which, all by itself, gave me a civ vibe. It is easy for me to identify the exact moment at which I got a read on LC, because it was from reading one specific post he wrote.

All of my reads were entirely genuine. Any one of them, I could have told you immediately after I posted them the reasons why I did them.

Nah, thinkin' hurts my brain. U bad.

Again, I was never curious as to why you wouldn't vote for them, it had to do with the speed in which you suddenly had six players you wouldn't vote for after just claiming your first read of the game. But I see you just couldn't wait to explain the why, as if that has any relevance to my ping of you.

[DrWilgy]

Dragunu D. Ruffey-san

Psst, DrWilgy-san. You can't vote for players at night.

Ninja'd. What's up, Wilgy? You're all over the damn place.

What categorizes me as such?

It's just your votes were all over the place yesterday, and today you acted like you were voting for someone when it's the night phase. You just seem real aloof.

But, if you read what I posted afterwards, I think I have reasonable thoughts about your civilian alignment.

A shame... I have unreasonable thoughts about your mafia alignment...

[Golden]

So, Matt, thats it? You are just going to keep saying 'I think it was dishonest' and 'it was odd' and ignore any attempt from others to get you to think?

For the record, since I've given you the opportunity to test this over and over and you've refused.

I liked Mongoose and Silverwolf on a tone level.
SVS and DDL, I liked the approach they took to engaging with DrWilgy's plans at the top of the game (something I had read and participated in).
sloonei and epis approach to questioning and responding to others reminds me of their civvie selves. It felt like there was genuine effort from both to generate reads in their own way.

I probably had all of those six reads before I had LC, but I hadn't identified that I had them until I went through the poll thinking about each person in turn.
In the same look through, I identified that I hadn't really read anyone as bad yet.

This differs from LC, who had a specific idea which, all by itself, gave me a civ vibe. It is easy for me to identify the exact moment at which I got a read on LC, because it was from reading one specific post he wrote.

All of my reads were entirely genuine. Any one of them, I could have told you immediately after I posted them the reasons why I did them.

Nah, thinkin' hurts my brain. U bad.

Again, I was never curious as to why you wouldn't vote for them, it had to do with the speed in which you suddenly had six players you wouldn't vote for after just claiming your first read of the game. But I see you just couldn't wait to explain the why, as if that has any relevance to my ping of you.

I don't even...

"Hey, golden, I think your reads were dishonest. But, hey, the fact you can show your genuine thought process is of no relevance. I don't care if you had one."

[Matt]

[Matt]

Golden, if you are civ, would you see Llama's defense of you as a baddie buddying, or as a civ just agreeing with you that my accusations are outlandish?

[Golden]

I'll be voting for you tomorrow, Matt. I've never quite come across the case before where someone literally says "explaining your thought process is of no relevance to my ping, where I question your ability to have had a thought process within the available time."

linki - I have no read on llama. I have one on you though.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

The whole Golden vs Matt argument feels like a waste of time.

Just my two cents.

[Golden]

The whole Golden vs Matt argument feels like a waste of time.

Just my two cents.

I don't think so.

Matt tried to put out a case on me, where he literally didn't give a shit if he was right or wrong. He doesn't care at all to question, or to understand. He just wants me lynched.

I don't see how this can be civilian Matt. Even tunnelly civilian Matt. I think Matt is bad as they come. If you ask me what I think Matt is doing... I think he is trying to get people to go 'oh, there's tunnely Matt... his claim is so outrageous and he won't listen... he must be town.' I think he is trying to create civ cred for himself. And I'm not buying it.

I will almost certainly be voting for him tomorrow.

[Matt]

I'll be voting for you tomorrow, Matt. I've never quite come across the case before where someone literally says "explaining your thought process is of no relevance to my ping, where I question your ability to have had a thought process within the available time."

linki - I have no read on llama. I have one on you though.

Even if I'm wrong, which could be the case, we've played enough games together that you should know I'm quirky like that. You're making me feel worse all the time.

[Tangrowth]

Less than a half hour now to submit your PMs to your host!

Although we've given you all 23 hours to submit PMs and that gives us an extra hour to prep for Day 2, note that it may take us longer than that hour to do so. Daisy works until 4:00PM Central time today (right about now), so we'll see how it goes. We'll make sure to get Day 2 running as closely to 6:07PM Eastern time as we can for you all.

[Golden]

I'll be voting for you tomorrow, Matt. I've never quite come across the case before where someone literally says "explaining your thought process is of no relevance to my ping, where I question your ability to have had a thought process within the available time."

linki - I have no read on llama. I have one on you though.

Even if I'm wrong, which could be the case, we've played enough games together that you should know I'm quirky like that. You're making me feel worse all the time.

See above. I think that's what you are relying on. In fact, I think it's what you are going for.

[thellama73]

Golden, if you are civ, would you see Llama's defense of you as a baddie buddying, or as a civ just agreeing with you that my accusations are outlandish?

Yeah, Golden. I'm still waiting for a "thank you", by the ay.

[Matt]

The whole Golden vs Matt argument feels like a waste of time.

Just my two cents.

I don't think so.

Matt tried to put out a case on me, where he literally didn't give a shit if he was right or wrong. He doesn't care at all to question, or to understand. He just wants me lynched.

I don't see how this can be civilian Matt. Even tunnelly civilian Matt. I think Matt is bad as they come. If you ask me what I think Matt is doing... I think he is trying to get people to go 'oh, there's tunnely Matt... his claim is so outrageous and he won't listen... he must be town.' I think he is trying to create civ cred for himself. And I'm not buying it.

I will almost certainly be voting for him tomorrow.

Blah. I agree with most that meta is BS. You are right that I did try that route in GoC based on Mac's suggestion that I do so, but that's not what's happening here.

Golden, if I'm NK'd tonight, who you votin' for tomorrow instead? You've already shown your ability to rapidly discern good and bad guys out of thin air, so this shouldn't be a tough question for you.

[Matt]

Anyway all, gots to get ready for work.

I'll leave with a question for DDL, though...

Why do you think my and Golden's argument is a waste of time?

[thellama73]

Anyway all, gots to get ready for work.

I'll leave with a question for DDL, though...

Why do you think my and Golden's argument is a waste of time?

Because he's a cop.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Anyway all, gots to get ready for work.

I'll leave with a question for DDL, though...

Why do you think my and Golden's argument is a waste of time?

I think your reason to lynch Golden is not enough. You are going back and forth on one variable that could be perfectly explained by reasons other than him being a cop, and the likehood of measuring his alignment correctly with that variable isn't much better than doing it at random. It's like you are trying to plot a very complex curve using a single point.

Your time would be better used by looking at the other things Golden said during the game, in order to obtain more variables. Or by talking about other people. Likewise, Golden's time is also being wasted by talking about that variable over and over.

[a2thezebra]

These are some tough calls.

[thellama73]

These are some tough calls.

Fluff. The illusion of participation. Come on zebra, you're better than that.