[END] Turf Wars: Battle of the Hosts

[Marmot]

WHOA whoa whoa. I go to take a shower and I come back and everyone that had voted for me all of sudden switched bandwagons entirely??

I don't understand this at all. I take it that it was in response to some questionable action that Fuzz took to tie a vote? In wondering whether or not it's to save a teammate?

I'm reading over the posts now and yeah, it does seem like Fuzz is flipping a bit on some opinions. I truthfully haven't examined him at all prior to this point. I will try and examine some posts before the day is over but I don't know if I'll get to it in time.

But I recall a few instances of a couple people wanting to use their votes to break some ties, even being said so in this forum. What am I missing that was special about Fuzz's vote?

LLLLLINKIIIII

This post reeks of BTSC, and not the good kind.

could you elaborate?

The way the post is laid out.

Gleam starts out with an astonishment at the bandwagon switch, and understandably so.

Then gleam asks why, as well as offering some sort of possibility for Fuzz getting the votes he did. But the way I understand the post through the second paragraph, gleam had not yet read what happened in the thread, but still seemed to know what Fuzz's vote did.

The third paragraph, he states he has read what happened.

The fourth paragraph, he generalizes the idea of breaking ties as not a bad thing. I think he was trying to imply there was nothing wrong with Fuzz's vote.

[Sloonei]

WHOA whoa whoa. I go to take a shower and I come back and everyone that had voted for me all of sudden switched bandwagons entirely??

I don't understand this at all. I take it that it was in response to some questionable action that Fuzz took to tie a vote? In wondering whether or not it's to save a teammate?

I'm reading over the posts now and yeah, it does seem like Fuzz is flipping a bit on some opinions. I truthfully haven't examined him at all prior to this point. I will try and examine some posts before the day is over but I don't know if I'll get to it in time.

But I recall a few instances of a couple people wanting to use their votes to break some ties, even being said so in this forum. What am I missing that was special about Fuzz's vote?

LLLLLINKIIIII

This post reeks of BTSC, and not the good kind.

could you elaborate?

The way the post is laid out.

Gleam starts out with an astonishment at the bandwagon switch, and understandably so.

Then gleam asks why, as well as offering some sort of possibility for Fuzz getting the votes he did. But the way I understand the post through the second paragraph, gleam had not yet read what happened in the thread, but still seemed to know what Fuzz's vote did.

The third paragraph, he states he has read what happened.

The fourth paragraph, he generalizes the idea of breaking ties as not a bad thing. I think he was trying to imply there was nothing wrong with Fuzz's vote.

Solid points. I look forward to gleam's response.

[Marmot]

Switching to Fuzz for the time being.

I would definitely like to hear from him / her before EoD if possible.

I did recently get mislynched in a CFD in Rocky & Bullwinkle, and it sucked. I prefer people to be able to defend against votes, but I also prefer not to be forced to vote for someone I don't want to vote for in order for my vote to mean something.


Linki up the wazoo here too! Weeeeee!

I don't know indi much at all, but this sort of behavior just seems natural to come from her. Is this correct?

Linki: why your posts so short zeebs?

Don't know if you were actually asking me or not, but yes. I will always remain a bit paranoid in mafia games. And I will probably always second guess myself at least several times during the course of any given game.

It was more the fact that everyone was switching their votes to Fuzz, and your attitude was like "Hey guys, wait for me! I'm voting Fuzz too!"

You offered a couple reasons why you shouldn't have voted for Fuzz, but you were content voting him anyway. I'm not bothered by this behavior, because this does seem like the sort of thing I would do.

[agleaminranks]

WHOA whoa whoa. I go to take a shower and I come back and everyone that had voted for me all of sudden switched bandwagons entirely??

I don't understand this at all. I take it that it was in response to some questionable action that Fuzz took to tie a vote? In wondering whether or not it's to save a teammate?

I'm reading over the posts now and yeah, it does seem like Fuzz is flipping a bit on some opinions. I truthfully haven't examined him at all prior to this point. I will try and examine some posts before the day is over but I don't know if I'll get to it in time.

But I recall a few instances of a couple people wanting to use their votes to break some ties, even being said so in this forum. What am I missing that was special about Fuzz's vote?

LLLLLINKIIIII

This post reeks of BTSC, and not the good kind.

could you elaborate?

The way the post is laid out.

Gleam starts out with an astonishment at the bandwagon switch, and understandably so.

Then gleam asks why, as well as offering some sort of possibility for Fuzz getting the votes he did. But the way I understand the post through the second paragraph, gleam had not yet read what happened in the thread, but still seemed to know what Fuzz's vote did.

The third paragraph, he states he has read what happened.

The fourth paragraph, he generalizes the idea of breaking ties as not a bad thing. I think he was trying to imply there was nothing wrong with Fuzz's vote.

Solid points. I look forward to gleam's response.

I mean that paragraph was kind of written in a few points. I could have separated it into separate posts to indicate the timeline.

But, with regards to this, I elaborated on this earlier when I talked about your issue about civ paranoia, Sloonei. Just last page, maybe you missed it:

I am baffled by the number of people who are saying it's more liky that Fuzz was buzzed than the scum scrambling to save their teammate yesterday. There was no fuzz bandwagon at any point. It came up in the last hour of the day, completely out of the blue. It was the easiest thing in the world for people ro resist, and the cops could do so without necessarily being suspicious or appearing to defend your teammate. You can talk about head games all you want, but if thay CFD was a scum-orchestrated thing then what strategic value does it have? I'd love an answer to that question.

This was frankly one of the best moves I've ever seen in a mafia game. The plan came to fruition and worked out perfectly, but it seems the sentiment in the thread is to go in the complete opposite direction with the results. It's frustrating. I'm certain at least a few of the detractors are cops themselves, but there's still a good number of paranoid civs in that bunch. To them I say: stop being paranoid. There are 24 good guys to 6 bad guys in this game (or 22 to 5 now). That's 4 times as many civs. The threat is not all around us, it's lurking in a small, concentrated area.

I think the CFD was ballsy, and I'm pretty frankly impressed that it succeeded. I think Silverwolf did a commendable job catching something like that, and I'm impressed everyone else was able to rally around it. Even if I do think Silverwolf was acting awfully scummy earlier, as well as Ika. But the results are telling me that I should reconsider my opinion on both of them. Which I will. Silverwolf for doing something incredibly helpful to the civs, and ika for being Fuzz's target, logically give me much more reason to believe they're both in the town as opposed to being bad. I don't buy into the idea of the cops starting the anti-cop bandwagon. Even from a diversionary standpoint it makes almost no sense.

My only paranoia around the CFD was that Fuzz wasn't the only one talking about making a vote to break a tie. I recall at least two others talking about using their vote as a tiebreaker. When he went ahead and did use it as a tiebreaking vote (to tie up ika's votes against mine), that was when the accusations flew out. I can see the contradiction that Silverwolf pointed out between the posts (where he mentions not wanting to touch the Silverwolf/ika thing with a 39 and a half foot pole) but my understanding of that post was that Fuzz just didn't want to get involved with the drama that was surrounding it at the time. It was when things were kind of emotionally heated. Or at least that's how I interpreted the post, not as being related to voting actions or anything. Maybe I misread. I guess I worry that any other of the people who were talking about using a tiebreaker vote and then actually doing so could have suffered the same fate, and they could have been civilians just acting because they didn't want another civilian to get lynched.

When Fuzz was pressured at the end, though, I think he made some definite slips. There was one line in particular (about not caring who got lynched) that definitely moved him into overt baddie territory. I think had I not been on my way out the door at that time I probably would have moved my vote. But the lynch succeeded regardless, thankfully.

[Marmot]

Can we all look at Quin's, Epi's, and Enrique's behavior around the lynch? If you can still say that Golden is the most suspicious person in all that, please let me know.

Golden isn't really that suspicious. But of all the RadicalFuzz voteres yesterday, I think he's the most suspicious.

I'm not interested in lynching him in the next couple days though.

[Sloonei]

@ gleam: I did see that post and I liked it. I just wanted to see how you responded to Metalmarsh's accusation. Right now I'm reading both of you as town.

[agleaminranks]

@ gleam: I did see that post and I liked it. I just wanted to see how you responded to Metalmarsh's accusation. Right now I'm reading both of you as town.

Ah, okay. Well, to try and paraphrase then, responding to Marshie, I wasn't saying that there was nothing wrong with Fuzz's vote, I'm just saying that I think I interpreted the "not getting involved with Silverwolf/ika" statement different than the people who started the CDF, so I don't know if I would have had as strong of an argument to back it up over, say, anyone else who made a claim about using their vote for a tiebreaker. If memory serves me right, Serge made a vote on ika just before Fuzz did, and that had tied up the votes against me and ika at five, yet no one really jumped on him. I don't have a read for Serge, but my worry was just that since I didn't interpret the initial post correctly, from my position, it felt more like a matter of chance that they hopped on Fuzz versus anyone else, and throwing a lynch vote up to chance is more likely to get a civilian lynched than a baddie.

[Golden]

Let me throw out two names for this counterwagon and see if Sloon, SVS, TH, indi, silver and ika could all be behind either.

Matt
Wilgy

I'm open to other names.

Still on page 32 (I think) nut wanted to bring up a few things.

Silverwolf looks good, she brought Fuzz to the table firat. Ika looks less good for his immediate agreement. Not bad, just less good. SVS looks great for her immediate research despite being behind.


But Golden pings me here. Right around Fuzz's vote, Golden suggests a CFD. Also, when the others started talking about Fuzz, Golden mentioned 4 other names for possible CFD candidates: Serge, Matt, Wilgy, and DDL. DDL's mention wasn't explicit, but he called him continually more scummy for his posts.

Am I being paranoid? I realize I still have several pages to, but just voicing my thoughts here.

Didn't I actually explicitly say fuzz in the same post I expicitly said serge? I could be remembering wrong.

I know you mentioned Fuzz's name too, I didn't mean to imply you hadn't. My point was that the CFD idea came up. Several folks mentioned the suspicion of Fuzz's vote. Then you mentioned Matt and Wilgy, then Serge and Fuzz, then DDL. At that moment, I thought you were throwing other names out to steer the idea away from Fuzz to another player.

But I changed my mind after reading further along.

'Several people' did not bring up fuzz before me. In fact, literally his vote came in one minute before I raised his name, the only mention before was silverwolf pointing out that he had just done an 'ooportunistic vote'.

I added Fuzz to the CFD pool immediately. SVS gets the credit for choosing him as the target, but lets not pretend I was holding him back out of the pool and reluctantly adding him, that is so incredibly misleading. I never added any names (including DDL) to the pool after that.

[indiglo]

Switching to Fuzz for the time being.

I would definitely like to hear from him / her before EoD if possible.

I did recently get mislynched in a CFD in Rocky & Bullwinkle, and it sucked. I prefer people to be able to defend against votes, but I also prefer not to be forced to vote for someone I don't want to vote for in order for my vote to mean something.


Linki up the wazoo here too! Weeeeee!

I don't know indi much at all, but this sort of behavior just seems natural to come from her. Is this correct?

Linki: why your posts so short zeebs?

Don't know if you were actually asking me or not, but yes. I will always remain a bit paranoid in mafia games. And I will probably always second guess myself at least several times during the course of any given game.

It was more the fact that everyone was switching their votes to Fuzz, and your attitude was like "Hey guys, wait for me! I'm voting Fuzz too!"

You offered a couple reasons why you shouldn't have voted for Fuzz, but you were content voting him anyway. I'm not bothered by this behavior, because this does seem like the sort of thing I would do.

Then you must be an extremely intelligent, charming and attractive person.

[Golden]

I do not understand how anyone who reads that whole thing can honestly take away from it that the people who set out to form that wagon, any one of them, was bad. It makes absolutely zero sense.

This shit I'm talking about.

I've seen more black and white views in internet religion arguments.

Thats because its black and white DDL. When they flip there will be no ambiguity about their role cards, and every one of those five will be town. Religion is not.

Notice how I'm not adding TH (he came to Fuzz late, even though he suggested the CFD) - although I think he is probable town. I'm not adding you...

The behaviour and conduct in the thread from those five people doesn't only indicate no hesitation - it indicates genuine scum hunting of Fuzz.

[Golden]

So DDL makes a big case that I'm bad and says I move 'very similarly' to how I bus in other games?

OK, show me the game where I moved similarly to put my own teammates name out on the block with no real provocation.
Show me the game where I went all out for a chinese fire drill and encouraged the case on my own teammate.

What DDL fails to tell you all is that in Economics, with both lynches, I was not only the first person on both of the lynches, but I had set up my suspicion of them both for days beforehand. I was busy making the things look so clean.

Not only that... I had identified who the cop was and knew they had figured out who both my teammates were... so there was no saving them. There was only saving ME.

I did what I had to do to win my team the game.

What possible stupid logical reason is there for me to bring up a CFD to suddenly bus my own teammate? Your theory of me being bad pretends like me bussing has a 'voting pattern', but its entirely focussed on how early I voted, do you look at how early I frequently vote on civilian lynches? Very often. Also, you are comparing voting patterns in a game with changeable votes to one that didn't have changeable votes, which messes up vote pattern analysis as well.

The only pattern you need is this.

I don't bus my teammates for the fun of it.
I don't call for and participate in sudden switches of lynches to teammates who were previously without suspicion, when there is absolutely no need to do so.
Bussing is a tactic you use to cut your losses and come out looking clean. It's something you do that looks entirely consistent with your stated suspicions in the thread. It's something you do to keep your nose clean.

What I did in this game looks literally nothing like what I did in Economics, with the one exception of where I voted in the vote train. The reason they look nothing alike is because I was not bussing Fuzz.

[Sloonei]

I am in complete agreemwnt with Golden. Maybe it's because we were a part of what happened, but the way that whole thing came together, I can't feel any way other than to say that him, SVS, silverwolf, ika, and probably Turnip Head are all town. It's not a black and white "they voted for Fuzz so they must be good!" argument. It's an observation of their behavior and on the way the lynch was started and carried out. It was genuine on all accounts, or I will also eat a camel.

[Golden]

I can't believe I'm being accused of being a fucking moron in two games at once.

And I'll remind you of this.

Because it is moronic to turn on your own team and lose numbers for no good reason. Bussing is something you only do when you have GOOD reason.

[Sloonei]

And trying to spin this AGAINST the Fuzz lynchers, if you're town, is just rampant paranoia and a refusal to beliebe that sometimes things can go well in this game. Day 2 was a major victory for town, whichever Family you belong to. Let's not squander it.

[Sloonei]

We need to beliebe, you guys.

[Golden]

And trying to spin this AGAINST the Fuzz lynchers, if you're town, is just rampant paranoia and a refusal to beliebe that sometimes things can go well in this game. Day 2 was a major victory for town, whichever Family you belong to. Let's not squander it.

I agree with this.

It's the message I was trying to get across with my STV story.

A CFD that actually takes down a baddie is GOING to make baddies reveal themselves. They have to scramble like hell. It is only normal that some, even if they are good players, are going to reveal their hands in the chaos. That's the whole point of it.

[a2thezebra]

A CFD that actually takes down a baddie is GOING to make baddies reveal themselves. They have to scramble like hell. It is only normal that some, even if they are good players, are going to reveal their hands in the chaos. That's the whole point of it.

That's the thing though...it makes the baddies reveal themselves if the target of the CFD is in fact a baddie. If it's not, the sudden pressure on them out of nowhere might make them appear as if they were a baddie because of how they might react to receiving so many votes out of nowhere. Given the result, I obviously don't have a problem with the lynch and though I'm still not a CFD fan I can't criticize how it played out this time, but I do think that the result it produced owed at least most of it to luck, and that there have got to be some baddies on that wagon.

[Golden]

I don't like Golden's absolute views. Only siths deal in absolutes. This doesn't sound like a civ wanting to figure out the game.

It sounds like a golden who already has. See my signature.

@zebra - the target was a baddie. There was no luck involved, the baddie cocked up and was caught. I see no reason that there has 'got to' be baddies on the wagon, but if there are it is only DDL.

I'm sorry, but the opposition to the CFD post factum is ridiculous.

[S~V~S]

A CFD that actually takes down a baddie is GOING to make baddies reveal themselves. They have to scramble like hell. It is only normal that some, even if they are good players, are going to reveal their hands in the chaos. That's the whole point of it.

That's the thing though...it makes the baddies reveal themselves if the target of the CFD is in fact a baddie. If it's not, the sudden pressure on them out of nowhere might make them appear as if they were a baddie because of how they might react to receiving so many votes out of nowhere. Given the result, I obviously don't have a problem with the lynch and though I'm still not a CFD fan I can't criticize how it played out this time, but I do think that the result it produced owed at least most of it to luck, and that there have got to be some baddies on that wagon.

Why? Especially since it appeared that ika had the most votes? If Fuzz had appeared to have the most votes, then I would definitely agree he had been heaved under the Greyhound. But, from the way it looked, it looked like ika had been lynched and he had been saved. Why would baddies do that?

I don't buy it.

[Matt]

If we don't vote for who I think we should vote for tomorrow, we'll be missing a golden opportunity.

[Sloonei]

If we don't vote for who I think we should vote for tomorrow, we'll be missing a golden opportunity.

We absolutely should not do that.

[a2thezebra]

@zebra - the target was a baddie. There was no luck involved, the baddie cocked up and was caught. I see no reason that there has 'got to' be baddies on the wagon, but if there are it is only DDL.

I'm sorry, but the opposition to the CFD post factum is ridiculous.

But the way Fuzz "cocked up" could have been identical to the way a civ would have "cocked up". It wasn't, but it could've been. Hence, luck.

[a2thezebra]

A CFD that actually takes down a baddie is GOING to make baddies reveal themselves. They have to scramble like hell. It is only normal that some, even if they are good players, are going to reveal their hands in the chaos. That's the whole point of it.

That's the thing though...it makes the baddies reveal themselves if the target of the CFD is in fact a baddie. If it's not, the sudden pressure on them out of nowhere might make them appear as if they were a baddie because of how they might react to receiving so many votes out of nowhere. Given the result, I obviously don't have a problem with the lynch and though I'm still not a CFD fan I can't criticize how it played out this time, but I do think that the result it produced owed at least most of it to luck, and that there have got to be some baddies on that wagon.

Why? Especially since it appeared that ika had the most votes? If Fuzz had appeared to have the most votes, then I would definitely agree he had been heaved under the Greyhound. But, from the way it looked, it looked like ika had been lynched and he had been saved. Why would baddies do that?

I don't buy it.

Why what? What are you arguing against?

[Marmot]

Let me throw out two names for this counterwagon and see if Sloon, SVS, TH, indi, silver and ika could all be behind either.

Matt
Wilgy

I'm open to other names.

Still on page 32 (I think) nut wanted to bring up a few things.

Silverwolf looks good, she brought Fuzz to the table firat. Ika looks less good for his immediate agreement. Not bad, just less good. SVS looks great for her immediate research despite being behind.


But Golden pings me here. Right around Fuzz's vote, Golden suggests a CFD. Also, when the others started talking about Fuzz, Golden mentioned 4 other names for possible CFD candidates: Serge, Matt, Wilgy, and DDL. DDL's mention wasn't explicit, but he called him continually more scummy for his posts.

Am I being paranoid? I realize I still have several pages to, but just voicing my thoughts here.

Didn't I actually explicitly say fuzz in the same post I expicitly said serge? I could be remembering wrong.

I know you mentioned Fuzz's name too, I didn't mean to imply you hadn't. My point was that the CFD idea came up. Several folks mentioned the suspicion of Fuzz's vote. Then you mentioned Matt and Wilgy, then Serge and Fuzz, then DDL. At that moment, I thought you were throwing other names out to steer the idea away from Fuzz to another player.

But I changed my mind after reading further along.

'Several people' did not bring up fuzz before me. In fact, literally his vote came in one minute before I raised his name, the only mention before was silverwolf pointing out that he had just done an 'ooportunistic vote'.

I added Fuzz to the CFD pool immediately. SVS gets the credit for choosing him as the target, but lets not pretend I was holding him back out of the pool and reluctantly adding him, that is so incredibly misleading. I never added any names (including DDL) to the pool after that.

I see a few things wrong here (one of them being my statement).

You are correct that several people did not raise his name for CFD before you did. But two people did: Silverwolf and ika.

Next point. Fuzz's vote did not come literally one minute before you raised his name. Fuzz voted, and you put his name forth 7 minutes later, after Silverwolf and ika called him out for it. But to expound on this, you had only one interaction with and zero mentions of Fuzz before his late ika vote. That interaction was discussing the mechanics of what happens in a tie. You had no prior interest in talking about him, let alone lynching him. Stating that "literally his vote came in one minute before I raised his name" is a misrepresentation of the events, because the timing is wrong. It's semantics I know, but you used the word literally, so it's a worthwhile argument. But most importantly, this reads as if you were going to raise his name regardless of what else had happened, and the RadicalFuzz happened to make a bad vote before you mentioned his name. But as I pointed out already, you had not mentioned Fuzz at all prior to this.

I know you didn't add DDL to the pool. I even said you didn't. You called him scummier and scummier based on his posts right after bringing up Fuzz's name, so I think it is relevant to the current topic.

[sig]

A CFD that actually takes down a baddie is GOING to make baddies reveal themselves. They have to scramble like hell. It is only normal that some, even if they are good players, are going to reveal their hands in the chaos. That's the whole point of it.

That's the thing though...it makes the baddies reveal themselves if the target of the CFD is in fact a baddie. If it's not, the sudden pressure on them out of nowhere might make them appear as if they were a baddie because of how they might react to receiving so many votes out of nowhere. Given the result, I obviously don't have a problem with the lynch and though I'm still not a CFD fan I can't criticize how it played out this time, but I do think that the result it produced owed at least most of it to luck, and that there have got to be some baddies on that wagon.

Why? Especially since it appeared that ika had the most votes? If Fuzz had appeared to have the most votes, then I would definitely agree he had been heaved under the Greyhound. But, from the way it looked, it looked like ika had been lynched and he had been saved. Why would baddies do that?

I don't buy it.

Why what? What are you arguing against?

I think it is more likely he was heaved under the Greyhound since he wasn't leading. The mafia where safely on the Fuzz wagon, Fuzz wasn't supposed to be lynched saving them at least one phase when Ika flipped civ. Fuzz flipping only happened since someone called in their extra votes. So he was a "safe" wagon for mafia members espacilly since I think it was clear I was going to vote to save him.

I like MM's case on Golden.

[Marmot]

Switching to Fuzz for the time being.

I would definitely like to hear from him / her before EoD if possible.

I did recently get mislynched in a CFD in Rocky & Bullwinkle, and it sucked. I prefer people to be able to defend against votes, but I also prefer not to be forced to vote for someone I don't want to vote for in order for my vote to mean something.


Linki up the wazoo here too! Weeeeee!

I don't know indi much at all, but this sort of behavior just seems natural to come from her. Is this correct?

Linki: why your posts so short zeebs?

Don't know if you were actually asking me or not, but yes. I will always remain a bit paranoid in mafia games. And I will probably always second guess myself at least several times during the course of any given game.

It was more the fact that everyone was switching their votes to Fuzz, and your attitude was like "Hey guys, wait for me! I'm voting Fuzz too!"

You offered a couple reasons why you shouldn't have voted for Fuzz, but you were content voting him anyway. I'm not bothered by this behavior, because this does seem like the sort of thing I would do.

Then you must be an extremely intelligent, charming and attractive person marmot.

Fixed.

[Enrique]

Wow, that lynch came out from nowhere. The poll would have me believe that ika got lynched but the first page isn't updated yet. I'm not really sure what happened there. I'll catch up in an hour or two, hopefully.

lmao

[Enrique]

I can't believe I'm being accused of being a fucking moron in two games at once.

yeah i cannot imagine what that feels like...

[Enrique]

(serge's a cop btw)

[Golden]

Let me throw out two names for this counterwagon and see if Sloon, SVS, TH, indi, silver and ika could all be behind either.

Matt
Wilgy

I'm open to other names.

Still on page 32 (I think) nut wanted to bring up a few things.

Silverwolf looks good, she brought Fuzz to the table firat. Ika looks less good for his immediate agreement. Not bad, just less good. SVS looks great for her immediate research despite being behind.


But Golden pings me here. Right around Fuzz's vote, Golden suggests a CFD. Also, when the others started talking about Fuzz, Golden mentioned 4 other names for possible CFD candidates: Serge, Matt, Wilgy, and DDL. DDL's mention wasn't explicit, but he called him continually more scummy for his posts.

Am I being paranoid? I realize I still have several pages to, but just voicing my thoughts here.

Didn't I actually explicitly say fuzz in the same post I expicitly said serge? I could be remembering wrong.

I know you mentioned Fuzz's name too, I didn't mean to imply you hadn't. My point was that the CFD idea came up. Several folks mentioned the suspicion of Fuzz's vote. Then you mentioned Matt and Wilgy, then Serge and Fuzz, then DDL. At that moment, I thought you were throwing other names out to steer the idea away from Fuzz to another player.

But I changed my mind after reading further along.

'Several people' did not bring up fuzz before me. In fact, literally his vote came in one minute before I raised his name, the only mention before was silverwolf pointing out that he had just done an 'ooportunistic vote'.

I added Fuzz to the CFD pool immediately. SVS gets the credit for choosing him as the target, but lets not pretend I was holding him back out of the pool and reluctantly adding him, that is so incredibly misleading. I never added any names (including DDL) to the pool after that.

I see a few things wrong here (one of them being my statement).

You are correct that several people did not raise his name for CFD before you did. But two people did: Silverwolf and ika.

Next point. Fuzz's vote did not come literally one minute before you raised his name. Fuzz voted, and you put his name forth 7 minutes later, after Silverwolf and ika called him out for it. But to expound on this, you had only one interaction with and zero mentions of Fuzz before his late ika vote. That interaction was discussing the mechanics of what happens in a tie. You had no prior interest in talking about him, let alone lynching him. Stating that "literally his vote came in one minute before I raised his name" is a misrepresentation of the events, because the timing is wrong. It's semantics I know, but you used the word literally, so it's a worthwhile argument. But most importantly, this reads as if you were going to raise his name regardless of what else had happened, and the RadicalFuzz happened to make a bad vote before you mentioned his name. But as I pointed out already, you had not mentioned Fuzz at all prior to this.

I know you didn't add DDL to the pool. I even said you didn't. You called him scummier and scummier based on his posts right after bringing up Fuzz's name, so I think it is relevant to the current topic.

OK. I don't know how to time votes on the poll. It was literally one minute before I posted Fuzz that I READ his vote. Better? I read his vote, and as immediately as it was possible for me to do said I'd add him to the CFD pool.

And no - silverwolf and ika did not suggest him for CFD before me. Silverwolf said 'it was an opportunistic vote' - which is EXACTLY what I just said she said. I put Fuzz into the CFD pool.

[Scotty]

Noting that sig and Enrique both find serge suspicious and support MM's case on golden.
Keeping that in my back pocket for later.

[Enrique]

Noting that sig and Enrique both find serge suspicious and support MM's case on golden.
Keeping that in my back pocket for later.

:twirl:

[Enrique]

*

[Epignosis]

I have finally finished reading. Jesus.

This jumped out at me:

I don't see anything different in Epi than I did when we played Zodiac as scum together. You could debate that I have the freshest eyes out of everyone here, but you could also argue that I'm the least educated on typical Epi gameplay. Either way, I think we could get some quality information by lynching Epi. I say that because of this post:

@Epignosis, what do you think about Wilgy right now?

I mean, you said you think he's a civ, but what made you change your mind?

Dunno if you have the time to answer this now, but I'll leave the question for when you do.

I won't be voting for him. I don't think it's a good idea to say why.

It's a shame that I can't find the voting patterns from Zodiac Mafia. What do you all think? Does Epi usually shy away from lynches like he did just now?

"Quality information"

Yay! Well done on the lynch.

Im not so sure on Ika anymore. Im more inclined to lynching Epi right now, though I will have to wait for the night to end before making any reads. We should have fresh information by then.

"Fresh information."

Radical Fuzz was bad, got lynched because of vote manipulation, and these two want to lynch me...for information? Yeah...to hell with that.

Once you have your information, lynch these two next. They both articulate a willingness to lynch me for information, but they don't express what would be discovered if I did get lynched and was or was not a cop. What information are they looking to gather? To me, this suggests an eagerness to get voters to overlook the important information we already have. You know, like that fact Radical Fuzz was bad.

++++

Wow why Fuzz this makes no sense I think this is a baddie driven CFD to save a teammate, notice almost the same people are up for lynches today as yesterday? I stand by my theory that one was mafia and that we had some minor save last phase, I think we are seeing a much bigger save attempt this phase. With a mafia team thhis big a CFD is easy to pull off I think this is scum driven to save one of the three leading people. Most likely Ike or Epi.

Can someone give me any reason for the Fuzz lynch?

I also really dislike DDL switch and his reasons. I actually am agreeing with Llama about him what about a Dragon lycnh?

linki: DDL and Golden are my top two scum reads, either Ike or Epi are there partners. Possibly Wilgy as well.

While the "Wow why Fuzz this makes no sense" is the obvious thing people will take from this post, don't overlook that sig names five people- with thirty-three minutes in the lynch to go. We used to call that "throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks" back in the day. In addition, sig starts "agreeing" with llama about DDL.

sig, do you still agree with thellama73 about DDL? Why or why not?

I also find it very odd Golden doesn't want to lynch Ike a new player but suggested a CFD onto Serge another new player?

This isn't a big deal, but ika isn't a new player, and sig should know that.

The fact that the Gleam wagon exploded at the beginning of the phase with almost no explanation to being gone and another wagon popping up ijust as fast is insane. I bet Fuzz will flip civ, you'll attempt to lead a Gleam lynch tomorrow and they will flip civ. I know firmly believe one of the other two front runners is a cop.

This post oozes with desperation and fear-mongering. I wish I could see what the vote tallies looked like at the time of this post. I don't understand sig's thought process, but if sig is bad, I would argue that agleaminranks is good, because sig would know Fuzz wouldn't flip civilian.

I'm not going to go through all of sig's posts that are all railing against the wave of votes that came in out of nowhere for Fuzz. Here's my question: Is there a precedent for sig urging desperately against someone's lynch in the early stage of a game?

I stand up for sig when he is town, all the time. You know this about me. Everyone does. I'm pretty good at seeing sig slips and seeing the reasons people are after him are dumb.

He made no slip here. He didn't post a word that was misinterpreted. People weren't taking him the wrong way. No - he opposed the CFD, and voted to break the tie and save Fuzz.

I do not believe this sig is town for a second.

Yep. I want to say I've even defended sig when he was bad and I wasn't.

++++

If I'm popped tonight, my top three are sig, Quin, and Nerolunar.

[Nerolunar]

@ Epignosis

I was referring to the fact that Night Actions will happen - thats what I mean by information. Things will happen that we can use. I was not talking specifically about lynching you for information. You still ping me though.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Golden, what do you think about Epi?

Don't have time to answer to your posts right now but I wanna leave this question anyway.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Also Epi, what is your opinion on the CFD that happened last day and whether its results can be used to find scum or not?

I know you've had some strong opinions about CFD in the past, so I'm curious about what you think of it in the context of this game.

[sig]

I have finally finished reading. Jesus.

Taking the Lords name in vain, you should be lynched just for this.

Wow why Fuzz this makes no sense I think this is a baddie driven CFD to save a teammate, notice almost the same people are up for lynches today as yesterday? I stand by my theory that one was mafia and that we had some minor save last phase, I think we are seeing a much bigger save attempt this phase. With a mafia team thhis big a CFD is easy to pull off I think this is scum driven to save one of the three leading people. Most likely Ike or Epi.

Can someone give me any reason for the Fuzz lynch?

I also really dislike DDL switch and his reasons. I actually am agreeing with Llama about him what about a Dragon lycnh?

linki: DDL and Golden are my top two scum reads, either Ike or Epi are there partners. Possibly Wilgy as well.

While the "Wow why Fuzz this makes no sense" is the obvious thing people will take from this post, don't overlook that sig names five people- with thirty-three minutes in the lynch to go. We used to call that "throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks" back in the day. In addition, sig starts "agreeing" with llama about DDL.

sig, do you still agree with thellama73 about DDL? Why or why not?

I've still got a slight scum read on DDL mainly for Llama's points.I also didn't like his reasoning for switching wagons. I did name multiply people yes with good reasoning imo. I saw yesterday as an attempt to save Ika, Golden seemed scummy. I had already said one of the leading wagons was mafia that would have been Ika or you. Wilgy for reasons stated earlier. What is wrong with making multiply reads? I wasn't trying to redirect the CFD

I also find it very odd Golden doesn't want to lynch Ike a new player but suggested a CFD onto Serge another new player?

This isn't a big deal, but ika isn't a new player, and sig should know that.

This game was played eight months ago I didn't recall playing with Ika. This seems like a desperate attempt to try and refocus the discussion onto me.

The fact that the Gleam wagon exploded at the beginning of the phase with almost no explanation to being gone and another wagon popping up ijust as fast is insane. I bet Fuzz will flip civ, you'll attempt to lead a Gleam lynch tomorrow and they will flip civ. I know firmly believe one of the other two front runners is a cop.

This post oozes with desperation and fear-mongering. I wish I could see what the vote tallies looked like at the time of this post. I don't understand sig's thought process, but if sig is bad, I would argue that agleaminranks is good, because sig would know Fuzz wouldn't flip civilian.

Can you explain this I don't understand? I said if Fuzz flips civ then Gleam would be wagoned tomorrow and would the be civ. My thought process was simply. We had so many people vote Gleam for no good reason, his wagon exploded. Then it lost all its votes and was replaced by Fuzz. Could you explain your theory about Gleam being good if I'm bad?

I'm not going to go through all of sig's posts that are all railing against the wave of votes that came in out of nowhere for Fuzz. Here's my question: Is there a precedent for sig urging desperately against someone's lynch in the early stage of a game?

Sometimes I will, I recently did this more or less in Llama's game and it got me lynched. II think it has happened a few times, the reason I was so vocal this game was because I believed we where being redirected and pushed by the mafia.

I stand up for sig when he is town, all the time. You know this about me. Everyone does. I'm pretty good at seeing sig slips and seeing the reasons people are after him are dumb.

He made no slip here. He didn't post a word that was misinterpreted. People weren't taking him the wrong way. No - he opposed the CFD, and voted to break the tie and save Fuzz.

I do not believe this sig is town for a second.

Yep. I want to say I've even defended sig when he was bad and I wasn't.

That is true, however you also voted agaisnt me in The Syndicate game, when I voted with the last mafia player when I was indeed a civ. So I'd say you have defended me, but also voted agaisnt me when I made voting errors in the past.
++++

If I'm popped tonight, my top three are sig, Quin, and Nerolunar.

[Nerolunar]

That font color is so wrong Sig.

[sig]

That font color is so wrong Sig.

Why it is a nice color!

[Nerolunar]

Its unreadable.

Maybe you intended for it to be unreadable?

Probably not.

[sig]

Its unreadable.

Maybe you intended for it to be unreadable?

Probably not.

Well I think it is very readable and a very nice color. I should lynch you for insulting my color choices. :P

[Golden]

Golden, what do you think about Epi?

Don't have time to answer to your posts right now but I wanna leave this question anyway.

I haven't seen anything from him that makes me think he is bad.

[Epignosis]

@ Epignosis

I was referring to the fact that Night Actions will happen - thats what I mean by information. Things will happen that we can use. I was not talking specifically about lynching you for information. You still ping me though.

Oh, I see. In that case, we could lynch you after we get some information we can use. See how that works?

Also Epi, what is your opinion on the CFD that happened last day and whether its results can be used to find scum or not?

I know you've had some strong opinions about CFD in the past, so I'm curious about what you think of it in the context of this game.

I still think they are a horrid idea in general, but broken clocks and all that. However, I'm not sure I'd call what happened Day 2 "CFD." Fuzz's lynch was swift and unexpected, but it happened in a logical manner: Fuzz did something odd late in the Day, got called out for it, and there were a number of people who didn't like the three leading candidates and were seeking a viable fourth party. I'm glad they found one.

It seemed to happen out of nowhere to me because I came home assuming I would be voting to save myself. I started reading, and when I went to the next page, a ton of votes shifted to Fuzz. I thought the dude outed himself or something.

I haven't had a chance to do any individual analysis (except for sig because his vote and his posts were so blatant)- I spent my entire lunch period just reading in chronological order, and I'm out of time now. We're going out to eat and then I have to come back and work tonight.

I came away feeling almost positive Golden is not a cop. I won't support his lynch tomorrow.

[Nerolunar]

@ Epignosis

What exactly is your case against me? I only remember you mentioning me steering the thread earlier which you didn´t follow up on, but does it go beyond that? Explain to me why you find me suspicious.

[Golden]

I still think they are a horrid idea in general, but broken clocks and all that. However, I'm not sure I'd call what happened Day 2 "CFD." Fuzz's lynch was swift and unexpected, but it happened in a logical manner: Fuzz did something odd late in the Day, got called out for it, and there were a number of people who didn't like the three leading candidates and were seeking a viable fourth party. I'm glad they found one.

I think this is pretty much right. It's not like it was suggested just for kicks. It was suggested by people who a) didn't like any of the existing options and b) found an actual reason to be suspicious of someone that they all agreed was suspicious.

[Matt]

Golden, what do you think about Epi?

Don't have time to answer to your posts right now but I wanna leave this question anyway.

I haven't seen anything from him that makes me think he is bad.

Do you think he's bad, though? Perhaps not from something he himself did, but earlier...

Well I ask about gleam cuz it looks like we're headed towards a sig or Enrique lynch and I'm wondering...

If Fuzz was lynched because he voted for Ika, which he would only reasonably do to save a teammate IMO (which in this case would be gleam, or perhaps even Epi)...

Completely agree with this bit.

So, by saying you "completely agree with this bit"..."completely"...I'm to understand that you do share a suss of Epignosis based on Fuzzy's vote, correct?

[Golden]

No, Matt, I don't know how you could take that lesson away?

[Matt]

No, Matt, I don't know how you could take that lesson away?

Cuz I sussed gleam and Epi based on Fuzzy's vote, and you said "completely agree"...? Hrm.

[Golden]

No, Matt, I don't know how you could take that lesson away?

Cuz I sussed gleam and Epi based on Fuzzy's vote, and you said "completely agree"...? Hrm.

OK, so adding 'or possibly epi' as an afterthought after focussing the entire rest of that on gleam, in the context of a conversation where you and I were talking about gleam not epi, and you take 'I completely agree' to be agreeing about epi?