Romance of the Three Kingdoms [ENDGAME]

[Tangrowth]

Ok so I just saw MP's bigger post about being busy so what Quin said about him makes sense.

I've heard stories about baddie MP having meltdowns though, so I'm paranoid about that.

Feel free to judge my emotionally-fueled content if you wish, but only in one game ever have I made a hail mary move to directly manipulative everyone's emotions by faking a meltdown: Roger Rabbit. And the only reason I did was because, to this day, that game had perhaps one of the best civilian teams I've ever seen in all of my years of mafia, not only in historical accolades but in how exceedingly well they owned us and brought their A game during that game.

I regret doing it, frankly. I'd rather people not town or scum read me based on frustrations that I've brought into the game, but I understand that anything I bring in here is fair content to be judged. I just would also say I'm self-aware and honest enough to tell you all that 99% of my emotional frustrations and outbursts are non-alignment-indicative. I get upset in RL and it spills over (even though I should VENT TO THE MOD, as should everyone else), I get upset at stuff in the games, and there's really no trend for me getting more or less upset as either alignment.

[Tangrowth]

OK, Mac, if you're going to make fun of me, that's fine, whatever. You're proving my point in that yes, I'm always fucking busy, and I'm pretty sure we've never even played a game together where I was civilian because I say the same shit every game I'm in, but whatever. I should have listened to my better judgment when it told me it would be a mistake to get back into mafia, especially now. This game infuriates me way too much; I'm getting out now before I waste more of my time on this. This game is just not fun enough for me to continue, and I'm going to bow out before I can cause any more drama.

Wow MP, sorry for that. I know how you are feeling now, it's just like how I was at that Turf Wars game.

RL happens and you are busy but you kind of have time to play some mafia, so you come anyway. And since you have so little time, you plan your gameplay to be simple and easy: just come, reply some posts, make your reads and leave. But this is mafia, and you inevitably get into a debate eventually, with some super-civ who is playing at their best game.

So debate keeps happening and you want it to end but you have to win because you wouldn't have it any other way. And as the RL stress keeps pilling up and the debate gets heated you start blaming that player you are arguing with for all of it. You think "does this guy even know what I'm having to sacrifice to come here argue with him"? Until eventually you blow up, and the game becomes a source of anger and suffering instead of fun.

(tbh I'm just talking about what happened to myself so sorry if you are different)

Imo, just leave until it feels like you are safe to come back again. Don't fret, the site will still be here when you do (you own it, after all ). We will be waiting for you.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head here, DDL, and I appreciate your and everyone else's well wishes and thoughts with respect to this. I just wanted to make sure I said that. I don't have anything else to say on the matter of my explosive behavior unless anyone has specific question(s) for me regarding it. Instead I'm going to focus on other content.

[Tangrowth]

Im in another game that is very dramatic at the moment, so I will be flying under the radar for now.

There is some good discussion going on though.

MP's reaction to the slight suspicions against him over his GTHs looks way too defensive for my taste. *Ping*

Did you follow this up with a vote?

[Tangrowth]

MP is my top town read. I know frustration can come from either alignment, but it tends to come in different appearances and under different circumstances. MP blew up at the first sign of suspicion while he had no votes on him -- this is not how baddies tend to behave at all. That is how someone who is on edge outside a game behaves.

He was trying to get the thread moving in a productive direction, so he put some reads into the thread. He didn't force any red reads while he had none (baddies would force at least one). I think he'd be a dumb candidate for a duel and I don't envision myself supporting that any time soon.

I don't think that the way he responded initially is how a baddie acts, nor do I think it's how a civ acts. I think it's how someone who is very stressed out acts, and I don't think it's got anything to do with his alignment.

It's not his lack of red reads that I'm suspicious of. It's who he chose for his green reads. I agree with MacDougall when he not-so-delicately said that it looked like buddying.

I think that is too complex an accusation for the circumstance being assessed. MP's green reads were players who had mostly been active in the thread so far -- that makes sense, because those players had something to judge. He'd also specifically engaged those players in conversation before posting that list, so it's not hard to follow the progression that got him to those reads. The reason he got so frustrated was that he knew it was coming -- every time someone posts reads early in a game, people get on their case for it. It's stupid. I got the same crap in Triskaidekaphobia for doing basically the same thing.

MP is a calculated baddie. He is well aware that posting a bunch of greek peeks at the start of Day 1 isn't going to earn him town credit.

Take a look at the dialogue between MP and I. Would you civ read me after that? Although it's true, my excuse sounds sketchy af.

linki: I don't want to let his frustration indicate alignment for me, because I think it's completely independent from the game. I can appreciate why you think it's a civ lean though, because at the very least it's definitely not baddie indicative. I need to take my brother to work, so I'll sit on this for a while and focus on candidates for my second vote for now. I've also got to get back to my assignments.

Expand on the orange please, I think you've lost me. Are you saying that you think you appear dishonest despite telling the truth and that my acceptance of your reasoning makes me more suspect due to how you believe you are appearing? Or am I way off the mark here? And if the answer to that question is yes, can you explain to me why you think you appear that way?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'd rather lynch Russ than Dom among the people vying for second place.

[Nerolunar]

Im in another game that is very dramatic at the moment, so I will be flying under the radar for now.

There is some good discussion going on though.

MP's reaction to the slight suspicions against him over his GTHs looks way too defensive for my taste. *Ping*

Did you follow this up with a vote?

Nope. I'm not sure I would have.

[nijuukyugou]

I have a free ten minutes before 5. Classes start tomorrow and I'm freaking out at how much needs to be done between now and then. I want to participate, but I don't have time to read and analyze today (and I'm at work until 7). Or tomorrow. Not sure when. So I'm voting to keep it interesting, and picking two names that start with the same letter. Do and think what you will.

[Tangrowth]

I want opinions on this.

Here's one thing I'm noticing as I'm reading through all of this stuff, including the 50 posts or so I read while I was pissed off and then starting to read stuff I've never read:

Generally, Macdougall is tone reading genuine to me, but when I was upset he was tone reading manipulative, which at face value should make me feel better about him. Despite that, I'm actually finding myself questioning his motives more now than I was at that time.

Let me clarify.

1) Even in the moment of getting upset and feeling Mac was being manipulative, I didn't feel Mac was worthy of a mafia read because I know he pushes people to see how they'll respond when he's civilian as well; in fact, I'd say it's a hallmark of his typically aggressive playstyle. I would have called him a null read.

2) However, thinking on it now, I think Mac might warrant a pink-colored read of some kind (slight mafia?), though I'm still processing everything in my brain, need to read more, and would like to engage him and you all on this before committing. Nonetheless, this is the first moment in the game I've felt that someone could be bad. Here's why:

Macdougall is known for his belief that meta is an unreliable and easily manipulated method by which to judge players within mafia games. I've seen his attitude both here in multiple games as well as on RYM. This is a typical post on the matter that you'll see from Mac, taken from Night 2 of the Talking Heads game I hosted (his first game here)

So it turns out the guy who seemed like scum was scum and the meta arguments about him were a bunch of bullshit.

#metaisbullshit

I really love this result. There is so much to work with.

So at my work I just ran a competition to give $500 to a lucky participant in one of our surveys and it turned out to be a customer who just moved in to a new rental (I work for a real estate agency) who was broke af, is a single mum of 4 and whose daughter's birthday it is tomorrow. And we pulled her out of a hat. Fucking awesome.

Working with that knowledge, Macdougall's response to my busy remarks, upon reflection, seem not only out of character but potentially mafia-indicative.

Here is how Mac responded:

Spoiler: show

Okay, let's just get this all on the table so all of you are aware of my situation this game, though I'm sure many of you are it bears repeating. I will not get sucked into this game and my normal posting habits. I am undergoing without a doubt the busiest time of my entire life right now. But that doesn't mean I won't still contribute what I'm thinking. If you all find that suspicious, cool. I get it all the time, especially on Day 1. But I'm not going to sit here and get all stressed out and post 10,000 times because I cannot afford that in my life right now. This will be a welcome distraction for me. Not a stressful chore. Or at least as much as I can avoid it.

Hi Mac.

Don't look at me like that. I'm not even here yet. Stop it. I can tell what you're thinking.

And MovingPictures is giving me the heebie jeebies with his page 7 list of green skittles like he has a real read on people enough to give green skittles and no red ones. Where are the red ones brah? Everybody knows it's easier to get pings earlier in the game than good vibes. What are you so freakin' positive that you have anti hunting power that I don't have? Get real.

Instead of criticizing me, Mac, and then bailing on the thread, if red reads are so easy to form, then why don't you provide some more reads of your own besides picking on the one person who's provided GTH content? Seriously, if you want to play ball, then let's fucking play ball. All you have thrown out is a read of only me giving you bad vibes because I've thrown out some civilian reads? I don't think so. Your justification that it's "easier" to come up with bad reads is unsubstantiated and something that's never been true for me; based on my experience, I would say I'm not the only one. Furthermore, you don't offer any substance whatsoever on why it gives you the "heebie jeebies", just that it does. So your elaboration would be appreciated.

Furthermore, what the fuck was this about? Just seems like unnecessary snark and aggression to me and a way to get me riled up. Did I miss a joke?

I would be willing to throw out the following slight town GTHs:

Boomslang
Dragon D. Luffy
JaggedJimmyJay
Quin
Turnip Head

Could change at the drop of a hat, but so far I'm feeling OK at what they've brought to this thread so far. Anybody else have some GTHs yet?

I'd like to see the inspirations for these reads, just briefly.

I'll elaborate briefly upon my slight green reads before I leave for a while, as I was intending to do. I figured someone would just ask me for elaboration and that folks would try to fucking contribute to the discussion instead of jumping on my case, but I should have known better.

Boomslang can be a quiet guy in the thread. I like his activity and engagement so far, and his post here and here regarding the mechanics discussion demonstrated to me that he was willing to engage in the topic, was critically evaluating it, and was willing to throw out his more unconventional thoughts on the matter despite a potential backlash (Linki: seems JJJ and I are on a similar page here). My gut tells me, based on my experience with Boomslang for years RL and in mafia, that if he were bad he may have refrained from posting some of these posts.

DDL was the first player to point out something potentially manufactured/forced in this thread here. This post read genuine to me. I also appreciated the math post but I realize that is non-alignment indicative.

Jay is being Jay. That typically isn't quite enough for him to earn any read from me just yet, but I tried to get a feel for him and he responded in a way that at least for now seemed genuine and with his explanation that jived with me. I haven't seen anything else questionable or alarming about his contributions just yet.

I liked Quin's questioning here. It made me feel he was genuinely interested in developing a read on Turnip Head.

Turnip Head's contributions here, here, and here demonstrate critical thinking and questioning.

Now please note that I said all of these are SLIGHT town and they are all tentative. I wanted to get discussion going. If you disagree with any of my reads, it'd be nice if you could engage me and the thread in why you do and not just that you do.

First off, sorry if you perceive this as insensitivity, but you have played this "busy" card before, as Mafia, I think on more than one occasion. I am sure you are busy, but it's not relevant information when you are supplying it as some sort of explanation for in game play. Thank you for sharing it with us, it's good to know, but as a point while we are discussing your potential alignment it is entirely irrelevant, so putting it up front here reads a bit manipulative to me, especially since I'm sure I have seen you do this before as Mafia. You don't have much in the way of "Jageist Mafia Ethics" around this subject in my opinion. (quite frankly I don't either ... so that's not a personal attack hahaha, alls fair in love and Mafia).

I will say again ... I did not share suspicion of you because you are "contributing" for you to say that is a misrepresentation, quite a big one. I quite obviously took issue with the actual thing you did/said, which was make five civ reads.

At what point did I indicate that I was bailing on the thread? That's a bit of a rando shit sling right there.

To elaborate on why what you did is suspicious, and this is me diving deeper into what at first was a ping ... (and I did that in my previous post, did you not see that in post review before you hit submit or did you just post it anyway without referencing it?).

To reiterate. There is a fairly basic, perhaps too basic, Mafia mentality behind why you would make the post you did, and that's to butter up 5 vocal players. Fairly routine Mafia strategy. Perhaps you can be redeemed by the fact that it's almost too blunt, but I'm not in the business of making excuses for other players. Of course the obvious town strategy of "playing the game" applies.

There is also the fact that by sharing the opinion that these five players are town, you're lending them a bit of public support, which is likely to influence the thread. I'm not a huge fan of doing that in general. Especially for a guy like Jimmy who should be absolutely brutally analysed at every turn.

And I have provided a red read. You. I only just showed up mate, give me a chance.

And I meant nothing by that last sentence, it was just playful banter.

FWIW I agree with at least 1 of your town reads, I think Quin is town, but based on posts since you made yours...

Stepping back a bit, I think you reacted quite emotionally to being suspected too, which ... ehhh it's not something I've not seen before from you.

I spoiled the post of mine that he's responding to in order to make this easier to read.

Now I get that Mac suspected me for making the town reads, I'm not really contesting that, since it's a point that I now think he's adequately explained and that could be coming from the perspective of Mac genuinely believing it as town or trying to drum up suspicion on me as mafia.

What bothers me are the comments in orange for these reasons:
1) If Mac firmly asserts that meta is unreliable, then why did he emphasize that he's seen me do this before as mafia, not only once but twice? He seems to imply that actually matters, but given his own words on multiple past occasions, I don't know why he would argue that right now, unless he was mafia and had an agenda to push.
2) And if my busy remarks are irrelevant, then why judge them at all as 'manipulative'? Shouldn't they be null?
3) I also brought up a question when I was upset that I'm not sure Mac ever answered that I think is relevant, that point notwithstanding, and that is: How many games has Mac actually played with me on The Syndicate when I was civilian? Because off the top of my head I can only think of Arkham and I was not playing close to my normal style and was a civilian-friendly independent so I don't think that counts. Star Wars and Transistor both were games in which I was bad and Mac was good.

Then he went a step further and pulled quotes from me saying I'm busy in Transistor:
http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 11#p295311

Again, if meta is bullshit, why even bring this up? My natural inclination is to think that Mac is lying because he has been on the record as an attacker of meta-based assessments, yet here is with his biggest content on Day 1 using them as the crux of his argument that I'm giving him the heebie jeebies. And if that is the case, then I call into question Mac's sincerity that I was ever really giving him the heebie jeebies, meaning he's bad.

Mac, help me understand. Can you respond to these concerns for me? Thanks.

The rest of you all, what do you think? Is there something here or am I reading too much into this? I don't think this isn't exactly a bombshell or anything, just my first real observation worth sharing. I'll keep sharing more as I get them.

[sig]

Okay I'm here on mobile so can't quote.


@nutella some people seem to think he is a civ. I don't think he is on Wilgy's team but could be with the other mafia or independent. I don't want him to go up again right now either way. I think that would be bad for a few reasons.

[Tangrowth]

Take a look at the dialogue between MP and I. Would you civ read me after that? Although it's true, my excuse sounds sketchy af.

I don't think your excuse sounds sketchy. It sounds honest. I can understand MP leaning in a positive direction for you. I wouldn't understand him stating with total confidence that you are town, but that's not what he did. He threw you a town GTH read based upon the content he had generated talking with you. I don't think that's suspicious, perhaps because it's so much like behavior that is typical of me. I think MP's methods resonate with me more than most because a lot of them are shared between us.

Stop reading my mind.

[sig]

Put Crooked Dfaraday on the dueling platform.

Or sig.

So you want me to duel why? Since I suspect you.




I'm unsure if I'll have time to post again so I'll be voting soon.


Mp that is very interesting i hadn't considered that on Mac until now.

[Tangrowth]

I'm leaving for a camping trip soon. I'll be back on Wednesday. Peace!

Oh hey Scotty, I posted this at the beginning.

And to be fair, I probably wouldn't have contributed, even if I was around.

Ah, I missed that. Unfortunately, your input since you've been back is going exactly how you admit it would go.

Also, my rainbow list looks something like this:

S~V~S
Turnip Head
MovingPictures07

Stay tuned for more.

Stay tuned for more...more what? Beer? Spears? Aneurysms?
What does the blue represent? Why do you suspect MP? Why anything? Why do I keep expecting you to expand upon your thoughts, knowing full well you're just gonna derp around them? Isn't that tbe definition of insanity?

You can't just post colorful words and not talk about them. Here's my rainbow list using your method:
Stalin
The Yuan Dynasty
Andy Richter
Crab People

Stay tuned for more.

I'm going to try to spam this thread as much as I can with meaningful content and not fluff posts, but... I just had to post this. this made me laugh way too hard. That rainbow list.

[Tangrowth]

Put Crooked Dfaraday on the dueling platform.

Or sig.

So you want me to duel why? Since I suspect you.




I'm unsure if I'll have time to post again so I'll be voting soon.


Mp that is very interesting i hadn't considered that on Mac until now.

What does very interesting mean exactly? How does it influence your read of Mac, or does it not at all? Should it influence my read of Mac?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm considering what you've said about Mac, MP. I'd prefer to see his response before I comment though.

[Tangrowth]

As far as Day 1 goes, I still do think that MP has come across as the most suspicious to me, so I'll vote there. I'm also going to vote Bubbles, because she's just one of (a few) who haven't checked in yet.

and now I'm off to bed.

You're probably going to be further confounded by this, but I like that you stuck to your guns on this and actually voted for me. Here, have a bump on the rainbow list to slightly darker but still not remotely dark green.

[sig]

Okay I'm voting Dom for reasons previously stated and lorab since she has posted yet hasn't caught up or in fact posted again since she made her first one that is odd. I'm unsure of MM but wouldn't mind seeing him duel. I don't recall the case on Russ at all so I won't vote there.


Linki I think it makes Mac look slightly more pingy yes. I'd like to see what he says though.
I'd rather not duel hin today and leave him alive for another phase since I think it is to weak to lynch on

[Tangrowth]

I'm considering what you've said about Mac, MP. I'd prefer to see his response before I comment though.

That's cool! In fact, maybe that's for the best anyway. Like I said, I don't think it's a real strong point or anything, and I'm certainly not campaigning for Mac's lynch at this point, since that'd be really weak. I just struggle to understand his mindset there and thought it was worth discussing in the interim. I still have a lot more to read as well... which I'm hoping to do more quickly than I have so far since I still have too much to get done today to spend it playing mafia, unfortunately.

[Tangrowth]

In fact... *looking at the poll* If Jay or someone else can succinctly explain to me why Dom, MM, and Russ are receiving votes, or at least point me in the direction of stuff I should pay attention to, that'd be great. As awesome as 100 ppg is in making me feel like I have less to read, I still have a lot to read. And I think once I get to the end of Day 1 I'm going to take a break to work again for a couple of hours, and then come back and try to catch up.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Okay I'm voting Dom for reasons previously stated and lorab since she has posted yet hasn't caught up or in fact posted again since she made her first one that is odd. I'm unsure of MM but wouldn't mind seeing him duel. I don't recall the case on Russ at all so I won't vote there.


Linki I think it makes Mac look slightly more pingy yes. I'd like to see what he says though.
I'd rather not duel hin today and leave him alive for another phase since I think it is to weak to lynch on

You think that's weak, but you feel good about voting LoRab?

[Tangrowth]

FWIW, I'm reading Scotty as OK throughout all of this in the last 10 hours or so of Day 1. Nothing inspiring, but nothing worthy of a vote IMO.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

In fact... *looking at the poll* If Jay or someone else can succinctly explain to me why Dom, MM, and Russ are receiving votes, or at least point me in the direction of stuff I should pay attention to, that'd be great. As awesome as 100 ppg is in making me feel like I have less to read, I still have a lot to read. And I think once I get to the end of Day 1 I'm going to take a break to work again for a couple of hours, and then come back and try to catch up.

I can't on my phone, but if you CTRL+F Marmot and Russ in my ISO you'll find it quickly.

[Tangrowth]

In fact... *looking at the poll* If Jay or someone else can succinctly explain to me why Dom, MM, and Russ are receiving votes, or at least point me in the direction of stuff I should pay attention to, that'd be great. As awesome as 100 ppg is in making me feel like I have less to read, I still have a lot to read. And I think once I get to the end of Day 1 I'm going to take a break to work again for a couple of hours, and then come back and try to catch up.

I can't on my phone, but if you CTRL+F Marmot and Russ in my ISO you'll find it quickly.

Sweet, thanks!

[Turnip Head]

Wasn't Mac bad in Taking Heads? How can anything he said about meta there be used against him here?

[Scotty]

In fact... *looking at the poll* If Jay or someone else can succinctly explain to me why Dom, MM, and Russ are receiving votes, or at least point me in the direction of stuff I should pay attention to, that'd be great. As awesome as 100 ppg is in making me feel like I have less to read, I still have a lot to read. And I think once I get to the end of Day 1 I'm going to take a break to work again for a couple of hours, and then come back and try to catch up.

I might be a bit biased since I mostly targeted people on my train, since I find it highly likely that at least 1 Mafia member jumped on that.

Check out my 2nd post of day 2.

Again, I might be biased but I think there is something there. Compounded with the lack of defense that both MM and Dom have brought forth after the fact, I'm fine with both of them leading lynches right now.

It's very hard to judge team compatability with multiple teams, but gotta start somewhere

Linki @TH Yo, would you be so kind as to answer my question I posed to you?

[Tangrowth]

I think I'm going to vote for two of the prefects. Jimmy, Scotty, INH... See who's the toughest.

What is the advantage of doing this?

What's the disadvantage? Scared?

And this kind of post is why I have so much trouble reading Sorsha. I can't make sense of this response. Despite my gut screaming that this is face value suspicious, I've been fooled by Sorsha and many other players (Roxy and S~V~S come to mind) and historically read them very badly in the past because apathy and these kinds of loaded questions always read insincere to me. Anyone have a read on Sorsha yet?

[Tangrowth]

Wasn't Mac bad in Taking Heads? How can anything he said about meta there be used against him here?

Yes! He was bad. So that's a good point. I thought Mac was pretty consistent against meta just across the board, but it didn't occur to me that the statement I pulled could be a bad example since it was still during the game when he had an agenda. Maybe he can speak to this specifically.

[Tangrowth]

I'm one person and at most can give you one vote.

I think too many people adopt this mindset on Day 1, thereby ensuring Day 1's lynch is close to random if not entirely random, thereby ensuring the likelihood of a productive lynch is minimized, thereby perpetuating the impression that Day 1 is a pointless crapshoot, thereby churning the wheels of the self-fulfilling prophecy, thereby causing JJJ's head to explode, thereby rendering him dead.

I wasn't here to argue about Day 1 and all of that, so I'll just sit here and nod in agreement.

And then move on.

[Scotty]

I'm also going to remind everybody that even when someone looks like they're actively attempting to look for baddies that in a game with multiple baddie teams, even baddies will be doing this. And just because someone leads a charge against a baddie, that doesn't validate them as civ.

I'm having lots of trouble reading people in this game because I feel like everyone is bad to an extent. It's like, Wilgy is dead but there's still 6 more baddies, 3 independents, and we still need to outnumber other civ factions to win. It's kinda a crapshoot, which is what The game of Mafia is, but I must warn people that civ labels should be used sparingly, since 1/3 of the players are not civ, and over 2/3 aren't even on the same civ team.

[Scotty]

That being said, I still think MP is a strong civ

[Tangrowth]

Hey JJJ, I'd like to respond to this case! I'm confused, help me out. I personally don't see anything here to judge Russ as bad or good:

Hey, let's make a Day 1 case.

Russtifinko

Spoiler: show

Agreed, JJJ.

Hey, I REALLY like the idea of the "whoever does ____ first, gets my votes" posts. They prevent people from finding excuses to give votes to baddie teammates. So I'm gonna do one too, and would suggest others do the same (even though it's an itsy bit late for a few).

The first two people to post pictures or emojis of platypi earn my votes.

DDL was the first to bring this post up, and I agree with his assertion that appears a bit forced. I don't think the context of Day 0 demanded that an explanation be generated for people's "if you do X, I'll vote you for prefect" activity. Russ provided an explanation anyway, and it's laborious, and it's actually completely wrong too. He acknowledged that after it was pointed out.

This doesn't seem forced to me FWIW. And I do think there is an inherent desire to try and find and then provide reasons for prefect votes to prevent everyone from hiding behind meaningless votes, so Russ's perspective here is one I can completely understand and I think it's not indicative. Am I missing something?

Spoiler: show

Lots to read. Things I saw to respond to on Page 8:

Agreed, JJJ.

Hey, I REALLY like the idea of the "whoever does ____ first, gets my votes" posts. They prevent people from finding excuses to give votes to baddie teammates. So I'm gonna do one too, and would suggest others do the same (even though it's an itsy bit late for a few).

The first two people to post pictures or emojis of platypi earn my votes.

DDL brought this post up and I think his concerns were valid. Russ, it appears here that you are attributing a meaningful strategy to what I would perceive to be typically arbitrary Day 0 behavior. This method removes the responsibility from your votes and increases the likelihood that they will be given to people who are in deliberate pursuit of power for whatever motive. Indeed, the two respondents to your platypi request were INH and I -- both eventual prefects.

I'd like for you to talk about this, please.

You didn't like it, you shouldn't have posted a platypus picture. You say those pursuing power shouldn't get it, but went ahead and pursued away yesterday. Dunno what to tell ya, I had an idea. It was pointed out to me that it could in theory be used to work out even better for the baddies, and after thinking about it, I agree.

He did that thing where when faced with an accusation, he returned another one upon his accuser -- without clearly stating that it's accusatory. I don't think "No U" is inherently a suspicious thing, but when it comes in this form, where the return-fire is indirect and doesn't net a concrete accusation, it's more of an issue. Moreover the shade he threw at me doesn't make sense. The highlighted portion is Russ essentially telling me that I was hypocritical because I didn't distrust myself.

Separately, the response he gave does not address the original accusation. Instead of more thoroughly explaining his mindset, or attempting to discern my own motives for accusing him, he simply said "if you didn't like it, you shouldn't have posted a platypus". This is inadequate because my decision to post a platypus (am I really typing that?) reflects my trust of myself, not on my perspective of Russtifinko. Instead of addressing the point in some way or another, he turned the conversation against me.

Spoiler: show

You even think this is true when the strategy that you propose each side would promote is demonstrably, mathematically better for their opponents? Please. This is ridiculous. I'm an economist, and incentives just do not work that way.

This is too dismissive for my liking. When confronted with my assertion that baddies would be more likely to propose the more obvious dueling strategy (suspect vs. suspect) to look like the logical parties while townies discuss wilder ideas, Russ doubled down with this strong language.

This all seems within character for Russ (particularly the strong language, which, if memory serves has been lodged against him before with mixed success), and I'm just not seeing your distinction for the accusation response. Help me out here.

I'll check out your more recent stuff now, then the stuff about Marmot, then Dom, then I'll leave and come back, just in the interest of time. I'm running out of it.

[Turnip Head]

Linki @TH Yo, would you be so kind as to answer my question I posed to you?

[Tangrowth]

I'm also going to remind everybody that even when someone looks like they're actively attempting to look for baddies that in a game with multiple baddie teams, even baddies will be doing this. And just because someone leads a charge against a baddie, that doesn't validate them as civ.

I'm having lots of trouble reading people in this game because I feel like everyone is bad to an extent. It's like, Wilgy is dead but there's still 6 more baddies, 3 independents, and we still need to outnumber other civ factions to win. It's kinda a crapshoot, which is what The game of Mafia is, but I must warn people that civ labels should be used sparingly, since 1/3 of the players are not civ, and over 2/3 aren't even on the same civ team.

This is definitely true. While I haven't even started reading d2 content yet (ugh), I'm feeling a bit lost right now myself due to trying to absorb all of this content and, more to your point, judge how teammates would have voted considering Wilgy's d1 demise. The vote was pretty spread out and half of the players missed; I'm not sure we can affirmatively say that his voters didn't all miss the vote, as unlikely as that would sound. I'm wary of trying to make conclusions such as 'Wilgy's teammates are behind the d1 Scotty push' or 'Wilgy's teammates cast their votes away from main wagons' because I saw everyone overanalyze the fuck out of the CFD that netted mafia!RadicalFuzz in Turf Wars when in reality his teammates weren't involved in the CFD or the CFD pushback. They were all, even Epi who was relatively active in the game, absent from most or all of the phase and the discussion completely.

[Tangrowth]

I'm quickly uncovering that the case I just didn't clearly understand from JJJ about Russ might be all there is going on here. What else is there, folks?

I didn't like Russ's recent "Congratulations on lynching Wilgy, guys!" It doesn't feel honest.

I think I'm voting for him today.

Speaking of Russ:

Russ, it'd be groovy if you could talk to me about my Day 1 case against you. It's a new day and I am not one to cling to old material, but I need inspiration to change my mind. Let's chat. We've already talked some about the first point, so please focus on the other two.

Did Russ respond to this?

[birdwithteeth11]

I hate having to do this, but I haven't caught up at all, I'm more than 10 pages behind, and I've had a really bad cold I've been dealing with for the last few days. I'm going to vote for myself and random another person on the list. I'm hoping with any off day tomorrow that I'll have enough time to read through everything and catch back up. Sorry everyone!

[Tangrowth]

Oh, and with respect to other Day 1 stuff going on, I can see and dig JJJ's suspicion of Dunny. What I find most suspicious at face value are: (1) the fact that he is quick to recognize the suspicion against him, yet the elaboration was vague and seems potentially conflicting after the (2) "why me?" defenses, which are also questionable.

I think I'd call him slight mafia at best though. Nothing particularly compelling.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm quickly uncovering that the case I just didn't clearly understand from JJJ about Russ might be all there is going on here. What else is there, folks?

I didn't like Russ's recent "Congratulations on lynching Wilgy, guys!" It doesn't feel honest.

I think I'm voting for him today.

Speaking of Russ:

Russ, it'd be groovy if you could talk to me about my Day 1 case against you. It's a new day and I am not one to cling to old material, but I need inspiration to change my mind. Let's chat. We've already talked some about the first point, so please focus on the other two.

Did Russ respond to this?

I don't believe so.

[Tangrowth]

I cannot make sense of the MM and Wilgy WIFOM combined with their less-than-serious general d1 attitudes, and the risk/reward analysis for whether a baddie would vote for their teammates on d0 combined with the assumption that the baddies would have to actively plan such a strategy seems less than ideal speculation upon which to make a vote. Pretty typical behavior. I'm not sure we've found a teammate connection there, but I appreciate your analysis of Wilgy's posts nonetheless, Jay.

[Tangrowth]

I'm quickly uncovering that the case I just didn't clearly understand from JJJ about Russ might be all there is going on here. What else is there, folks?

I didn't like Russ's recent "Congratulations on lynching Wilgy, guys!" It doesn't feel honest.

I think I'm voting for him today.

Speaking of Russ:

Russ, it'd be groovy if you could talk to me about my Day 1 case against you. It's a new day and I am not one to cling to old material, but I need inspiration to change my mind. Let's chat. We've already talked some about the first point, so please focus on the other two.

Did Russ respond to this?

I don't believe so.

It may just be that I'm still not fully caught up, so correct me if I'm wrong, but for a d1 baddie lynch and 835 posts in the thread, it seems the thread is in a stasis chamber.

Can someone help me out with the Dom stuff? Is that in Day 2? Maybe I'll CTRL+F these pages for "Dom". I don't see anything compelling on MM or Russ, especially when considering the sheer amount of players who didn't vote yesterday and didn't interact with Wilgy, so I'm a bit alarmed at the current vote tally with less than 5 hours until EoD.

[Scotty]

I'm quickly uncovering that the case I just didn't clearly understand from JJJ about Russ might be all there is going on here. What else is there, folks?

I didn't like Russ's recent "Congratulations on lynching Wilgy, guys!" It doesn't feel honest.

I think I'm voting for him today.

Speaking of Russ:

Russ, it'd be groovy if you could talk to me about my Day 1 case against you. It's a new day and I am not one to cling to old material, but I need inspiration to change my mind. Let's chat. We've already talked some about the first point, so please focus on the other two.

Did Russ respond to this?

I don't believe so.

It may just be that I'm still not fully caught up, so correct me if I'm wrong, but for a d1 baddie lynch and 835 posts in the thread, it seems the thread is in a stasis chamber.

Can someone help me out with the Dom stuff? Is that in Day 2? Maybe I'll CTRL+F these pages for "Dom". I don't see anything compelling on MM or Russ, especially when considering the sheer amount of players who didn't vote yesterday and didn't interact with Wilgy, so I'm a bit alarmed at the current vote tally with less than 5 hours until EoD.

Here's my take on it and why I voted him out the gate:

Spoiler: show

As one of your prefects and reigning champion, I would like a word with everyone that voted for me.

I really wanted to quote posts and have shit saved in drafts right after the lynch, but we can't do that when the thread is locked, so I wrote it in my head. The ink didn't dry, and now I'm an inkwell.

It's hard to see that lynch as a save opportunity for Wilgy, if he was saved at all. Those votes came pretty fast. He was, after all, a warrior, who had a pretty good chance of defeating the average bear.

But I'm yo prefect, so simma down.

I understand some of the votes for me:
-I got TH's reasoning, even though I don't agree with it.
-Nutella had a long winded explanation of her vote for me, disliking my oversight of voting DF even though he had posted. Meh. Not the most solid reason, but it's day 1, and it's a ping she followed through with, talking about it before Wilgy was in danger. She agreed with me that INH needed to show up, and brought up that Wilgy hadn't been around in a while. So she agrees with my concern that INH hasn't been around, but votes me anyway, followed by voting Wilgy for...not showing up. I mean, the fact that she voted for Wilgy at all makes me want to believe she's not on his team. If she's bad, I'd expect it on the Yelow Turbans.
-Bubbles. Um. Votes me and JJJ because she wanted to see a duel between us. In other words, she voted us because she wanted to vote us. In other words, she put the milk in the pantry because she wanted to put the milk in the pantry. I strongly dislike this vote/explanation. If there was a Wilgy save going on, this would add up. She put JJJ ahead with 4 votes, and me right behind with 3. Wilgy had 2 at this point in time, tied with a bunch of people.
-Domald voted for me and JJJ. Let's see what he had to say about suspicions:

I'm not liking Dom's rationale regarding Bass. Since Bass is generally a low poster, that feels like Dom is setting up an easy excuse for voting down the road.

Also Sorsha wanting to vote prefects sounds like a bad idea to me. I get the impression that prefects have important abilities or something, so why would we want to put them up to lynch right away?

And there's this DFaraday guy. This DFaraday guy-- he's just... well.. do I have to say it? He's not good. No good at all. Lies and twisting the fact like the crooked media. Rooting against me.

Listen folks, Bass better stay active. Otherwise he's saying empty promises and looking to be ignored. That's just despicable. We, as a game, cannot let him get away with this, folks.

(c) Paid for by Dom/NJU 2016.

Wait, that's funny. It looks like he meant to vote DF and Bass, but accidentally voted for me and JJJ. Whoops, must be some mistake. Because I just reread all his posts multiple times, and the only time he expressed any sort of sentiment toward me is when I criticized his posting gimmick and he called me "sad". He doesn't really mention JJJ as far as I can tell.

So...why did he vote for me? Or JJJ for that matter. I REALLY don't like Dom's vote.

-my first vote was Bass, who said most of my posts were filler posts and campaigning posts, which is fair. I did have a lot of those. Such is my day 1. He voted for MM for similar reasons, so I'm not gonna jump on him for this vote. Makes sense, and was reasoned. I don't think he looks as suspicious for that.


Dom and Bubbles are my top priorities today. I will most likely be voting there.

[Scotty]

Our 3rd prefect, INH, hasn't checked in since he won the title, and I would highly consider voting there if I had a 3rd vote

As a prefect, I would expect my peer to want to at least participate after putting up such a lukewarm campaign as is

[Tangrowth]

Just got to Day 2. Fuck it, I'll stick around and catch up. I have to. Especially since I'll be even busier Tuesday-Friday. Studying can wait because it sucks anyway. I'll speedread Day 2 and let you all know about Dom and other stuff.

Oh, and reading it again, one point that JJJ did make with respect to stuff about Wilgy strikes me as meaningful -- the one about Golden here. I'd say that gives Golden a lesser chance of being on Wilgy's team at this point than pretty much anyone else, but I'm not putting much stock in it.

Linki: Scotty, you're my hero. I'll read that now. Thanks bud.

[timmer]

Added some votes to the people wit votes. No time to figure things out just yet.

[Tangrowth]

See, the problem with that for me anyway is that Dom is pointing out a trend with Bass that I, without actual in-depth analysis, have noticed as well. Bass did have a string of games where he posted quite a bit early on and then trailed off with respect to activity, and regardless of whether that was true, he consistently did seem to be less posty when he was bad, much more so than trends with other players. Do I think that's even remotely foolproof though? No. I wouldn't be caught dead using that as a solid reason to think Bass is bad.

But you've touched on something about Dom's play, Scotty, that I've started to notice too as I'm getting into the beginning of Day 2 and thinking on his Day 1 stuff. He's definitely throwing around a lot of suspicion (DF, JJJ, Bass, from what I've seen and can recall so far), and doing so in a fairly assertive matter (though that could be due to the gimmick), but on the basis of little, dubious, or nonexistent claims and reasons. I'm starting to understand that the thread isn't exactly teeming with information by which to judge other individuals and we have to start somewhere though, and I wouldn't say this is out of character for Dom. I don't feel like it's inherently suspicious because I don't understand the motivation that a mafia Dom would have to behave in this way. It's unnecessarily risky. And GTH I'm reading Dom's posts as genuine, even in the presence of the Trump gimmick.

[Tangrowth]

/rant

Added some votes to the people wit votes. No time to figure things out just yet.

OK, I'm triggered, timmer. This may be the worst possible thing you can do if you're behind. Even BWT's method of self-voting, while meaningless and 100% guaranteed to get a civilian if he were to be lynched and assuming he's self-voting as a civilian (instead of 'randomizing' and potentially catching a baddie), all you're doing is creating a barrier to other players contributing meaningful alternative suspects and making it easier for other players to come in and, without discussion or adding input, do the same thing you just did, making those players effectively unreadable and the game more difficult to solve.

I understand being busy. Trust me. I'm sleeping like an average of 2-4 hours a night, if I'm lucky to get sleep, and working almost non-stop otherwise when I'm not here, eating, or cruising Facebook/politics news occasionally. But you would be better off abstaining or even voting yourself or 'randomizing' (both of which I despise as d1 tactics, by the way, let alone as d2+) than doing this.

I want a CFD and I think timmer might be a good candidate just for this attitude alone. I realize it could be a seriously behind and apathetic civilian attitude, but this is aggravating and I don't like the three major candidates.

[Tangrowth]

Hey Simon, what do you like about Russtifinko?

Simon likes me?? Yaaaay! I like Simon too.

FYI I still need to read this thang. I've been just recently caught up helping Daisy with the Psych endgame, we still have to pack and move some more stuff thereafter, and I have lots of studying to still do. Very likely will be pulling another all-nighter tonight, so at some point if I want a break I might try popping in here. Otherwise you'll hear from me tomorrow evening probably.

<---Do it.

I did it! Seriously, I love coffee, but my consumption has somehow even increased the last week or two and somehow I'm becoming slowly immune to its awesomeness. That alone should tell me I'm overdoing it. I've singlehandedly drank 3 pots in the last 36 hours. And I can't stop peeing.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I can agree with the notion that a busy player who hasn't kept up throwing votes on the larger wagons is more suspicious than those who just vote randomly. There's more potential for an agenda to exist in the former example (in this case presumably if nobody among Dom, Marsh, and Russ is on timmer's team).

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Sorsha's behavior late in Day 1 wasn't exactly inspiring, but it doesn't concern me either. I have had moments kind of like that -- emerging into a thread that I cannot catch up with in time, so I just poke someone hard in real time and see what happens (as she sort of did with me). I won't give her a pass for apathy; that sets a precedent that I am not content to set. I can't say I'd feel better about a Sorsha vote than a random vote though.

[Scotty]

See, the problem with that for me anyway is that Dom is pointing out a trend with Bass that I, without actual in-depth analysis, have noticed as well. Bass did have a string of games where he posted quite a bit early on and then trailed off with respect to activity, and regardless of whether that was true, he consistently did seem to be less posty when he was bad, much more so than trends with other players. Do I think that's even remotely foolproof though? No. I wouldn't be caught dead using that as a solid reason to think Bass is bad.

But you've touched on something about Dom's play, Scotty, that I've started to notice too as I'm getting into the beginning of Day 2 and thinking on his Day 1 stuff. He's definitely throwing around a lot of suspicion (DF, JJJ, Bass, from what I've seen and can recall so far), and doing so in a fairly assertive matter (though that could be due to the gimmick), but on the basis of little, dubious, or nonexistent claims and reasons. I'm starting to understand that the thread isn't exactly teeming with information by which to judge other individuals and we have to start somewhere though, and I wouldn't say this is out of character for Dom. I don't feel like it's inherently suspicious because I don't understand the motivation that a mafia Dom would have to behave in this way. It's unnecessarily risky. And GTH I'm reading Dom's posts as genuine, even in the presence of the Trump gimmick.

Do you have any knowledge of the last time Dom was bad? I can't remember, and usually don't like using meta examples, but the "out of character" thing is striking, because this is not the same type of Dom I remember playing with. This is like G-Man level gimmicks, where usually I see him as a pit bull that just got a bad haircut. Clipped, short responses, and getting dirty with people.

I can't read him behind the gimmick, but I'm not voting him primarily for the gimmick more than his lack of intention in voting day 1. If you're gonna pull a timmer and rando, then at least rando. He listed DF (and Bass as potential suspicious if he remained UTR) but voted me and JJJ. His post-explanation was as contrived as I expected, and I don't feel bad in voting him right now.

[Tangrowth]

So far my biggest suspicions are MM and Dom. I think JJJ made a good case for connections between MM and Wilgy, and Dom is not fully addressing the points made against him and, I suspect, hiding behind a posting gimmick.

Bubbles' votes seemed random, but not unusual for Bubbles.

DF, a few questions:

1) In what way would you assert that Dom is hiding behind a posting gimmick?
2) Do you agree or disagree that Dom's posting gimmick is attracting potentially negative attention that he would not have had to deal with otherwise?
3) What points made against him has Dom not addressed, specifically?

[Tangrowth]

DF either is misunderstanding the nature of Dom's comments about Bass (saying that he should be pressured and thought to be bad if he goes silent) or intentionally misrepresenting them. That's my second observation and I'd give DF a slight mafia read for this because I'm leaning the latter.

Spoiler: show

-Domald voted for me and JJJ. Let's see what he had to say about suspicions:

I'm not liking Dom's rationale regarding Bass. Since Bass is generally a low poster, that feels like Dom is setting up an easy excuse for voting down the road.

Also Sorsha wanting to vote prefects sounds like a bad idea to me. I get the impression that prefects have important abilities or something, so why would we want to put them up to lynch right away?

And there's this DFaraday guy. This DFaraday guy-- he's just... well.. do I have to say it? He's not good. No good at all. Lies and twisting the fact like the crooked media. Rooting against me.

Listen folks, Bass better stay active. Otherwise he's saying empty promises and looking to be ignored. That's just despicable. We, as a game, cannot let him get away with this, folks.

(c) Paid for by Dom/NJU 2016.

Wait, that's funny. It looks like he meant to vote DF and Bass, but accidentally voted for me and JJJ. Whoops, must be some mistake. Because I just reread all his posts multiple times, and the only time he expressed any sort of sentiment toward me is when I criticized his posting gimmick and he called me "sad". He doesn't really mention JJJ as far as I can tell.

Dom and Bubbles are my top priorities today. I will most likely be voting there.

Lyin' Scotty is teaming up with Tricky Jay in an alliance to take me down!

Why would I vote bass? Right now-- I think Bass is a good guy. That could change. I have explained why in the past. You can look it up-- plenty have written about it.

Folks, don't trust Lyin' Scotty and Tricky Jay. Lyin' Scotty looked for an opportunity to seize power without any sort of content. Tricky Jay has used bad thinking all game. Not good, folks, not good.

(c) Paid for by Dom/Nju 2016.

That's not really answering the question of why you voted Scotty and JJJ. And you think Bass is a good guy?

Also, you say that you think Bass is a good guy, a claim which is not supported by your previous interactions with Bass:

On a side note it feels so good to play with everyone again and have enough time to keep up with the thread. I am trying to be 200% more active this game then my last few poor showings .

Better keep this guy to his promise. I know this bass guy very well and believe me, if this post comes and flakey happens-- plenty of people know it's true that he's bad.

(c) Paid for by Dom/Nju 2016.

On a side note it feels so good to play with everyone again and have enough time to keep up with the thread. I am trying to be 200% more active this game then my last few poor showings .

Better keep this guy to his promise. I know this bass guy very well and believe me, if this post comes and flakey happens-- plenty of people know it's true that he's bad.

(c) Paid for by Dom/Nju 2016.

I'm confused by this ? Are you saying g if I'm active I'm bad?

What the truth of the matter is that you have to realize that after-- hey, believe me...
If you aren't active, let's just say something else might be going on. I don't know what, but something else! Believe me. For sure !



(c) Paid for by Dom/Nju 2016.

So first you establish a potential suspicion of Bass to come back to later, but don't actually vote him, instead going with guys you haven't provided reasoning for. Then when questioned, you've thought Bass was good all along? Dom is flip-flopping more than...some sort of public official.