Monkey Island [ENDGAME]

[Nachomamma8]

I got a role from another game. Do you think llama messed up?

So what happened? Did he?

I don't think he did. I did roll-claim earlier, so I'll just let you guys decide.

har har har
I did end up looking back to see if you role-claimed and wondered shortly why you hadn't been warned or modkilled before I realized what you were saying here.

[Nachomamma8]

Right I'm gonna hit the sack. See you all tomorrow.

Linki. Because as you said, why would a baddie vote for himself when he can throw his vote on a civ.

Not sure what "linki" means.

[Snow Dog]

I got a role from another game. Do you think llama messed up?

So what happened? Did he?

I don't think he did. I did roll-claim earlier, so I'll just let you guys decide.

WTF?

Ok i'll have to read back tomorrow.

[Golden]

Baddies

MovingPictures - With Moving talking about how excited he was to get the game moving, I expected more of that excitement to leak out into the thread; I expected him to take a more active role in guiding the game forward and pushing reads. I thought that his post asking a couple people questions and asking about gut reads in general was a step towards that, but I found it odd that he didn't offer his own leans while asking for others to give theirs; to me, it seems like maybe he was pretty okay with the gamestate (which he would be if a baddie, stagnation is fantastic for those on team evil) and wasn't making an honest effort to get it going. I felt better about this post when I started writing this post, but then I saw a couple of his recent posts, and I'm doubting myself, but I'd still like this addressed.

Long Con - Long Con baddie read doesn't have an intense amount of substance; in fact, I liked his early post talking about how he expected to get scumread for his role speculation (if he was afraid of taking heat for it as baddie, I expect he would either not do it in the first place or post it and try to keep a confident face on). I didn't like him calling Wigly a "suspect" for not reading his role PM, though; there isn't really a reason why not reading your role PM is scummy, just boring (since you're not playing towards one win condition or another). Scum motivation for that attack is taking advantage of an easy target early.

If I had the ability to change my vote after making it, I'd probably be voting MovingPictures right now; I don't feel particularly confident in the read, but again, MovingPictures is a player who I expect to be active and fairly transparent so I'd be pretty confident in firming up the read well before the end of the day.

This interests me, because at this point in the thread these are my only two reads, and I ping town on both.

[Snow Dog]

Right I'm gonna hit the sack. See you all tomorrow.

Linki. Because as you said, why would a baddie vote for himself when he can throw his vote on a civ.

Not sure what "linki" means.

My bad. I thought that was what we did.

[Marmot]

As for the lynch, are there any volunteers?

There's a lot of fluff happening so far (which I don't mind, just an observation), so it's possible that I'm clinging to anything that seems the slightest bit alignment indicative, but I liked this. I think it's something that baddies would be less likely to do than goodies, but don't have anything backing me up on that except for instinct.

I'd volunteer, but I promised myself I wouldn't be lynched Day 1.

And, since I'm explaining gut reads, this reads along the same lines.
I find that "I won't be lynched Day 1!" is more commonly a baddie goal than a goodie one (people are usually more afraid of being lynched instantly when they lack the power of the truth on their side), and generally baddies don't like sharing their goals in thread unless I've stumbled onto a much different meta than I'm used to.

What if Vompatti and I are teammates and this is all part of an elaborate scheme?

I like you nachomamma. Have we played together before?

Linki:

Linki x2: Sometimes when you make a post, you'll submit it, and someone else will have posted while you were typing your own. Linki is the tag for responding for that intermediate post.

[Nachomamma8]

I got a role from another game. Do you think llama messed up?

So what happened? Did he?

I don't think he did. I did roll-claim earlier, so I'll just let you guys decide.

WTF?

Ok i'll have to read back tomorrow.

no he posted a picture of a roll
he "roll claimed" as in claimed to be a roll

[Golden]

I'm already being held to a lofty standard

[Nachomamma8]

Right I'm gonna hit the sack. See you all tomorrow.

Linki. Because as you said, why would a baddie vote for himself when he can throw his vote on a civ.

Not sure what "linki" means.

My bad. I thought that was what we did.

It was, I just didn't know what it meant when you posted it.
Thanks MM!

[Snow Dog]

As for the lynch, are there any volunteers?

There's a lot of fluff happening so far (which I don't mind, just an observation), so it's possible that I'm clinging to anything that seems the slightest bit alignment indicative, but I liked this. I think it's something that baddies would be less likely to do than goodies, but don't have anything backing me up on that except for instinct.

I'd volunteer, but I promised myself I wouldn't be lynched Day 1.

And, since I'm explaining gut reads, this reads along the same lines.
I find that "I won't be lynched Day 1!" is more commonly a baddie goal than a goodie one (people are usually more afraid of being lynched instantly when they lack the power of the truth on their side), and generally baddies don't like sharing their goals in thread unless I've stumbled onto a much different meta than I'm used to.

What if Vompatti and I are teammates and this is all part of an elaborate scheme?

I like you nachomamma. Have we played together before?

Linki:

Linki x2: Sometimes when you make a post, you'll submit it, and someone else will have posted while you were typing your own. Linki is the tag for responding for that intermediate post.

So I'm not mad. I did get the linki bit right.

[Snow Dog]

Right I'm gonna hit the sack. See you all tomorrow.

Linki. Because as you said, why would a baddie vote for himself when he can throw his vote on a civ.

Not sure what "linki" means.

My bad. I thought that was what we did.

It was, I just didn't know what it meant when you posted it.
Thanks MM!

You had me thinking I got it wrong because I haven't played for at least two years.

[Snow Dog]

I got a role from another game. Do you think llama messed up?

So what happened? Did he?

I don't think he did. I did roll-claim earlier, so I'll just let you guys decide.

WTF?

Ok i'll have to read back tomorrow.

no he posted a picture of a roll
he "roll claimed" as in claimed to be a roll

Ah.

[Quin]

I got a role from another game. Do you think llama messed up?

So what happened? Did he?

I don't think he did. I did roll-claim earlier, so I'll just let you guys decide.

WTF?

Ok i'll have to read back tomorrow.

no he posted a picture of a roll
he "roll claimed" as in claimed to be a roll

you're shitting me

was this the punchline all along, marmot?

[Golden]

Well, I fucked that up.

[Nachomamma8]

As for the lynch, are there any volunteers?

There's a lot of fluff happening so far (which I don't mind, just an observation), so it's possible that I'm clinging to anything that seems the slightest bit alignment indicative, but I liked this. I think it's something that baddies would be less likely to do than goodies, but don't have anything backing me up on that except for instinct.

I'd volunteer, but I promised myself I wouldn't be lynched Day 1.

And, since I'm explaining gut reads, this reads along the same lines.
I find that "I won't be lynched Day 1!" is more commonly a baddie goal than a goodie one (people are usually more afraid of being lynched instantly when they lack the power of the truth on their side), and generally baddies don't like sharing their goals in thread unless I've stumbled onto a much different meta than I'm used to.

What if Vompatti and I are teammates and this is all part of an elaborate scheme?

I like you nachomamma. Have we played together before?

Linki:

Linki x2: Sometimes when you make a post, you'll submit it, and someone else will have posted while you were typing your own. Linki is the tag for responding for that intermediate post.

If it's a part of your scary elaborate scheme, then mentioning it now would be pretty silly unless you have a true passion for living on the edge.

I don't think we've played together before unless you have a habit of playing on other mafia sites under different names (or we played together a really long time ago during KISS speed since I think I remember someone named metalmarsh there), but I like you too!

[Snow Dog]

Ok that avenue was a total waste of time. Goodnight all!!!

[Golden]

To elaborate further: I suppose I've enjoyed the fluffy and slow paced nature of the game so far.

Me too. The recent lull in games filling up have reminded me that a game doesn't need 800 pages for you to find the baddies, and a slower pace can actually be fun!

Besides, I'll be getting distracted every 10 minutes by this -

[Nachomamma8]

This interests me, because at this point in the thread these are my only two reads, and I ping town on both.

My read on MovingPictures had a bad expectation right in the middle of it, so it's unsurprising that you disagreed with that read.
My read on LongCon seems to suffer the same issue, although I'd be interested in hearing why you think civilian specifically.

[Nachomamma8]

To elaborate further: I suppose I've enjoyed the fluffy and slow paced nature of the game so far.

Me too. The recent lull in games filling up have reminded me that a game doesn't need 800 pages for you to find the baddies, and a slower pace can actually be fun!

Besides, I'll be getting distracted every 10 minutes by this -

I don't mind slower paces but I get antsy as shit when deadline approaches and I don't have a vote I feel even vaguely positive about.

[Nachomamma8]

At this point I also feel obligated to apologize for how frequently I post, have tried to artificially reduce the number of times I post in the past but I find playing unnaturally kills the quality of my play and I'd rather not do that in my first game on this site (and am generally not convinced that my megawalls are any easier to parse than my large # of posts). If I'm annoying you or ruining your experience, don't be afraid to tell me!

[Nachomamma8]

also MM i think we did play together :o

[Golden]

At this point I also feel obligated to apologize for how frequently I post, have tried to artificially reduce the number of times I post in the past but I find playing unnaturally kills the quality of my play and I'd rather not do that in my first game on this site (and am generally not convinced that my megawalls are any easier to parse than my large # of posts). If I'm annoying you or ruining your experience, don't be afraid to tell me!

No apologies necessary. You do you. We have lots here (me and MP included) who can blow out games with post count.

[Snow Dog]

At this point I also feel obligated to apologize for how frequently I post, have tried to artificially reduce the number of times I post in the past but I find playing unnaturally kills the quality of my play and I'd rather not do that in my first game on this site (and am generally not convinced that my megawalls are any easier to parse than my large # of posts). If I'm annoying you or ruining your experience, don't be afraid to tell me!

It doesn't bother me.

Annd I really am going to sleep now

[Golden]

And, while I'm at it: MovingPictures, would you mind elaborating on your LC town lean a little more? I understand there might not be much behind it, but what do you think of him scumreading DrWigly early? It seems to me that DrWigly doing something weird (like not reading his role PM) isn't really unexpected and I don't actually think there's any scum motivation behind not reading your role PM; why don't you think that he's pushing on an easy target early?

If I was able to vote and change my vote, I'd be voting Long Con for those reasons; MovingPictures is a civilian read at this point.

Yeah, there really isn't much behind it, and LC is historically difficult for me to read. LC's post history has seemed genuine to me; I like the way he handled Mac's "you're trying too hard" with "try harder", he handled the accusation well.

You make a good argument as to why Wilgy's not worth scum reading though; that's why I didn't find it worth any read personally. I've been wrong about LC before for what seemed like manufactured or opportunistic early suspicions though.

I'm historically pretty damn good at reading LC - defending him against bad accusations, attacking him when no one else will listen..

For right now I think he is town. His role analysis shines more when he is town, I think. I can't put it into exact words, but there is a depth to it that indicates genuine thought an desire to get the answers.

[Quin]

At this point I also feel obligated to apologize for how frequently I post, have tried to artificially reduce the number of times I post in the past but I find playing unnaturally kills the quality of my play and I'd rather not do that in my first game on this site (and am generally not convinced that my megawalls are any easier to parse than my large # of posts). If I'm annoying you or ruining your experience, don't be afraid to tell me!

This is not a thing you need to apologise for. JaggedJimmyJay would sweep the floor with you in post frequency.

[Golden]

Looking back over earlier d0-d1 material and I'm really not finding anything but inconclusive fluff. There's just nothing here.

What do you make of me falling back to images and fluff?

[Snow Dog]

Top posters so far

1. MP
2. Nacho guy
3. Me!!!

[Golden]

I self-voted for the sake of figuring out whether they're changeable or not. Votes are not changeable.

It seems like there's some disagreement over whether this is a good or bad move. I find it rash; why vote solely for that purpose when there's still over 24 hours of daytime to go? Surely someone else would vote for suspicion reasons in that time, then report as to whether that vote was changeable. My gut says this is a convenient way for Quin to get out of voting for anyone else Day 1, and thus drawing early aggro.

Linki w/ Nacho: See, I take the opposite read here. A self-vote just to self-vote might fit your justification, but Quin's rationale isn't logical to me.
Linki w/MP: What's up is I'm trying to post :P Yeah, the Quin thing is a bit WIFOMy, but I think the explanation pushes it more toward a baddie read.
Linki w/Snow Dog: AHHHH LET ME POST

On the other hand, rash stands out, and its not like people who self-vote on day one get a pass. In my experience, people who self-vote day one and then get lynched for it are town. But maybe it's always MM, and it's not a general rule!

I don't think the relevant question is 'was it rash', I think the relevant question is 'was it bad'. I'm inclined to agree with MP and Nacho's thoughts - it seems less likely to come from a baddie to me, early. Especially in the early game, when you are bad you want to hang on to every advantage you have and see how the game is playing out before you commit yourself.

[Nachomamma8]

And, while I'm at it: MovingPictures, would you mind elaborating on your LC town lean a little more? I understand there might not be much behind it, but what do you think of him scumreading DrWigly early? It seems to me that DrWigly doing something weird (like not reading his role PM) isn't really unexpected and I don't actually think there's any scum motivation behind not reading your role PM; why don't you think that he's pushing on an easy target early?

If I was able to vote and change my vote, I'd be voting Long Con for those reasons; MovingPictures is a civilian read at this point.

Yeah, there really isn't much behind it, and LC is historically difficult for me to read. LC's post history has seemed genuine to me; I like the way he handled Mac's "you're trying too hard" with "try harder", he handled the accusation well.

You make a good argument as to why Wilgy's not worth scum reading though; that's why I didn't find it worth any read personally. I've been wrong about LC before for what seemed like manufactured or opportunistic early suspicions though.

I'm historically pretty damn good at reading LC - defending him against bad accusations, attacking him when no one else will listen..

For right now I think he is town. His role analysis shines more when he is town, I think. I can't put it into exact words, but there is a depth to it that indicates genuine thought an desire to get the answers.

This is reassuring; I did like LC's questions and thoughts about baddie roles in particular but wasn't sure how comfortable he was mimicking his role speculation as scum.

[Golden]

I'm liking Boomslang coming into thread and pushing back, though and am excited to see more from him - if he clears himself sufficiently, the probability of a successful drunk darts game jumps up to 44% and I'm one step closer to that elusive 50% (which is probably the best I can hope for at this point in the game).

The numbers are a little misleading though - they rely on all your day one townreads being right. I like the approach though. (Dare I call it... no, I won't use that acronym. I don't want to give anyone a heart attack.)

[Golden]

Hey guys, unfortunately I'll BBL.

Best MP post ever. Microcosmic.

[Golden]

I got a role from another game. Do you think llama messed up?

So what happened? Did he?

I don't think he did. I did roll-claim earlier, so I'll just let you guys decide.

Did you roll a 6?

[Golden]

Right I'm gonna hit the sack. See you all tomorrow.

Linki. Because as you said, why would a baddie vote for himself when he can throw his vote on a civ.

Not sure what "linki" means.

It's when you get a new post after you push submit, and you want to differentiate that you made the part of the post before that, before reading those new posts.

[Golden]

I got a role from another game. Do you think llama messed up?

So what happened? Did he?

I don't think he did. I did roll-claim earlier, so I'll just let you guys decide.

WTF?

Ok i'll have to read back tomorrow.

no he posted a picture of a roll
he "roll claimed" as in claimed to be a roll

A three headed roll.

[Golden]

I don't mind slower paces but I get antsy as shit when deadline approaches and I don't have a vote I feel even vaguely positive about.

So do I and it is a problem when there is less than 24 hours and I don't have a single bad lean yet.

[Golden]

This is reassuring; I did like LC's questions and thoughts about baddie roles in particular but wasn't sure how comfortable he was mimicking his role speculation as scum.

I think he is comfortable, but I think he can be portrayed in how deep they go.

Or, put another way, get in his head and think 'would he be asking all of these questions if bad' and for me the answer in this case is leaning no.

Although, I kind of made my 'I can read LC' sound heavy when I should say that, unlike Mac who has good day one instincts, I often need a bit longer to form a confident read. So it's early days.

[Golden]

Don't know why I said 'portrayed' - I mean betrayed.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't mind slower paces but I get antsy as shit when deadline approaches and I don't have a vote I feel even vaguely positive about.

So do I and it is a problem when there is less than 24 hours and I don't have a single bad lean yet.

If I had the ability to vote without committing I'd be voting Motel Room - no real reason to think that he's town other than the "I don't think he'd wish me a happy birthday while blackout" reasoning I don't buy into at all and I thought his exchange with me over his Long Con read was a disappointment.

[Vompatti]

> slow pace
> 8 (eight) pages on day 1 (one)

[Nachomamma8]

Especially in the early game, when you are bad you want to hang on to every advantage you have and see how the game is playing out before you commit yourself.

I think that this point is a good one.

[Soneji]

@Nacho : You look to rely a lot on an ability to townread and then use PoE, even this early. How much weight do you give to conscious vs unconscious scum moves? I have noticed that you approach people's posts as if you were scum in their shoes and make your read based on if you think they'd consciously post what they did with the proposed scum intent, in my experience this is rare.

Mafia generally don't purposely post as if they are mustache twirling villains even if it comes off that way in someones scumread. Their subconscious guilt is how these slips are made.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho : You look to rely a lot on an ability to townread and then use PoE, even this early. How much weight do you give to conscious vs unconscious scum moves? I have noticed that you approach people's posts as if you were scum in their shoes and make your read based on if you think they'd consciously post what they did with the proposed scum intent, in my experience this is rare.

Mafia generally don't purposely post as if they are mustache twirling villains even if it comes off that way in someones scumread. Their subconscious guilt is how these slips are made.

I think that most things that mafia post are unconscious, yes, but behind each unconscious post there are typically one of three guiding principles: 1) "I want to survive", 2) "I want to look town", 3) I want to lynch town. So when I say that something seems to lack scum motivation, it's because I don't think that a player would think that it doesn't push towards any one of those goals; when I say that I don't think that Metalmarsh would share his Day 1 goal of not being instantly lynched in thread, I don't think that this would be a conscious decision, I think that it's just something that he would feel uncomfortable doing. My argument for Quin being town isn't that they would sit down and weigh the advantages and disadvantages of self-voting versus not self-voting; it lies more along the lines of thinking that he would put some sort of thought before locking down one of his weapons against town so quickly and no lines of thought really point towards "no, self-vote".

Was there a argument in particular you were referring to when you made this post?

[Nachomamma8]

Also of note, I won't be here that much tomorrow (assuming deadline is when the poll expires) - I have work until the deadline and don't have the type of job that I can post from easily and so if you have any burning questions or things you want to bring up or talk, ask them in the next hour; I'll try to get to other stuff but no real promises.

[Black Rock]

I'm here and so happy this is game is running at a slower pace. I'm just jump stating my mafia brain. Me and the LC are laying down some floor tonight so I will likely do more tomorrow. I'm awkwardly checking in on my phone. The only thing I saw on my quick catch up is that I disagree with the suspicion surrounding MP and LC. I find it more convenient than well thought out. That is all for now.

[thellama73]

I'm here and so happy this is game is running at a slower pace.

From here on out, days will last 4 hours and nights will last 30 minutes.

(just kidding)

[Epignosis]

Just a little over 24 hours remaining and we've had hardly any on-topic discussion. Let's change that.

Mac, tell me why Epi is bad.
LC, what did you gain from your role analysis?
Everyone else, do you have any thoughts on anyone's alignment so far for even weak reasons/pings? If so, what are they?

Epi is always bad. Even when he's good.

How dare you say such thi-

[Epignosis]

Oh my fucking lord I am 30.

Just wait until getting out of bed is kicking your ass.

[Boomslang]

Town is a word that's interchangeable with civilian, apologies for failing my vocabulary test there.

I think that my train of thought is pretty weird - there's no reason for Quin to expect anyone like me to exist of have that train of thought, is there? I find voting to find the answer to whether votes are changeable or not is completely reasonable; do you disagree?

Nacho, you're defending this a lot more than I think it warrants. And you're conflating voting to find the answer with self-voting to find the answer. The former would be a side benefit of an early vote aiming to build momentum against a suspect; the latter is throwing away the power of the vote, possibly with less than honest intentions, to find the answer.

It was a rash move, but I don't really think that rash is equivalent to "more likely to come from a baddie".
I think that asking someone to wait until they have real suspicion in order to figure out votes are changeable or not is pretty unreasonable.

Why do you think that's unreasonable? If you have real suspicion of someone, it shouldn't matter if votes are changeable. You would gain that knowledge without sacrificing the efficacy of your vote.

[Boomslang]

Also, obligatory finger-pointing at a2zebra, sig, and motel room for either not posting in Day 1 or posting nothing of substance. Sig, I see you lurking. What's on your mind?

[Nachomamma8]

Town is a word that's interchangeable with civilian, apologies for failing my vocabulary test there.

I think that my train of thought is pretty weird - there's no reason for Quin to expect anyone like me to exist of have that train of thought, is there? I find voting to find the answer to whether votes are changeable or not is completely reasonable; do you disagree?

Nacho, you're defending this a lot more than I think it warrants. And you're conflating voting to find the answer with self-voting to find the answer. The former would be a side benefit of an early vote aiming to build momentum against a suspect; the latter is throwing away the power of the vote, possibly with less than honest intentions, to find the answer.

It was a rash move, but I don't really think that rash is equivalent to "more likely to come from a baddie".
I think that asking someone to wait until they have real suspicion in order to figure out votes are changeable or not is pretty unreasonable.

Why do you think that's unreasonable? If you have real suspicion of someone, it shouldn't matter if votes are changeable. You would gain that knowledge without sacrificing the efficacy of your vote.

You're right, I haven't properly introduced myself yet.

Hi, I'm Nacho, I defend things no one cares about until I'm blue in the face and then I defend them some more; I won't drop anything until I understand your side and you understand mine or until you decide I'm an obnoxious asshole and stop responding to my posts. Nice to meet you!

An early vote doesn't mean that it's a valuable one. If I voted Moving Pictures when I suspected him, I'd feel like an idiot now and have a useless vote. Quin sacrificed a day 1 vote (again, not a big deal) for information.

Your position is unreasonable because you expect everyone to play like you. You are assuming Quin would analyze the advantage of voting early versus voting later instead of voting on impulse; that is a bad assumption to make.