Monkey Island [ENDGAME]

[Soneji]

@Nacho : You look to rely a lot on an ability to townread and then use PoE, even this early. How much weight do you give to conscious vs unconscious scum moves? I have noticed that you approach people's posts as if you were scum in their shoes and make your read based on if you think they'd consciously post what they did with the proposed scum intent, in my experience this is rare.

Mafia generally don't purposely post as if they are mustache twirling villains even if it comes off that way in someones scumread. Their subconscious guilt is how these slips are made.

I think that most things that mafia post are unconscious, yes, but behind each unconscious post there are typically one of three guiding principles: 1) "I want to survive", 2) "I want to look town", 3) I want to lynch town. So when I say that something seems to lack scum motivation, it's because I don't think that a player would think that it doesn't push towards any one of those goals; when I say that I don't think that Metalmarsh would share his Day 1 goal of not being instantly lynched in thread, I don't think that this would be a conscious decision, I think that it's just something that he would feel uncomfortable doing. My argument for Quin being town isn't that they would sit down and weigh the advantages and disadvantages of self-voting versus not self-voting; it lies more along the lines of thinking that he would put some sort of thought before locking down one of his weapons against town so quickly and no lines of thought really point towards "no, self-vote".

Was there a argument in particular you were referring to when you made this post?

No one argument, you addressed the main two there.

Voting isn't a mafia weapon so much as it is town's. A lot of mafia players view voting as an inconvenience rather than a tool at their disposal and being freed from any pressure to vote is a blessing. Mind you, on the forum I come from I have never played a game where votes weren't changeable, mafia would be even more uncomfortable voting if they couldn't change. That they can't change weakens it's use as a weapon for them as well. The main point in Quin's favor to me is that the host wouldn't state if votes are final, forcing someone to vote to find out. Would have been preferable for him to vote a scumread but as is, hes not high up on potential lynch candidates.

Would you say your suspicion of Long Con stems from a differing view on if chaotic posts like Wilgy's are scummy? I don't see any way to look at Wilgy's post favorably. If he is telling the truth about not looking at his role PM, then he is going against the spirit of the rules and if he did get randomized scum, will not display the subconscious guilt that comes from one knowing they are scum. If he is lying then his motivation can only be to deceive or troll.

[VOTE: ] aubergine

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho : You look to rely a lot on an ability to townread and then use PoE, even this early. How much weight do you give to conscious vs unconscious scum moves? I have noticed that you approach people's posts as if you were scum in their shoes and make your read based on if you think they'd consciously post what they did with the proposed scum intent, in my experience this is rare.

Mafia generally don't purposely post as if they are mustache twirling villains even if it comes off that way in someones scumread. Their subconscious guilt is how these slips are made.

I think that most things that mafia post are unconscious, yes, but behind each unconscious post there are typically one of three guiding principles: 1) "I want to survive", 2) "I want to look town", 3) I want to lynch town. So when I say that something seems to lack scum motivation, it's because I don't think that a player would think that it doesn't push towards any one of those goals; when I say that I don't think that Metalmarsh would share his Day 1 goal of not being instantly lynched in thread, I don't think that this would be a conscious decision, I think that it's just something that he would feel uncomfortable doing. My argument for Quin being town isn't that they would sit down and weigh the advantages and disadvantages of self-voting versus not self-voting; it lies more along the lines of thinking that he would put some sort of thought before locking down one of his weapons against town so quickly and no lines of thought really point towards "no, self-vote".

Was there a argument in particular you were referring to when you made this post?

No one argument, you addressed the main two there.

Voting isn't a mafia weapon so much as it is town's. A lot of mafia players view voting as an inconvenience rather than a tool at their disposal and being freed from any pressure to vote is a blessing. Mind you, on the forum I come from I have never played a game where votes weren't changeable, mafia would be even more uncomfortable voting if they couldn't change. That they can't change weakens it's use as a weapon for them as well. The main point in Quin's favor to me is that the host wouldn't state if votes are final, forcing someone to vote to find out. Would have been preferable for him to vote a scumread but as is, hes not high up on potential lynch candidates.

Would you say your suspicion of Long Con stems from a differing view on if chaotic posts like Wilgy's are scummy? I don't see any way to look at Wilgy's post favorably. If he is telling the truth about not looking at his role PM, then he is going against the spirit of the rules and if he did get randomized scum, will not display the subconscious guilt that comes from one knowing they are scum. If he is lying then his motivation can only be to deceive or troll.

[VOTE: ] aubergine

[VOTE:
My suspicion of Long Con was based on the different perception of the play, yes.

If Wigly didn't read his role PM then it is against the spirit of the game, hence my pushes to get him to read - playing against the spirit of the game doesn't make him any likelier to be scum.

I don't think it's particularly likely that he's lying about reading his role PM as mafia, although that would be an interesting gambit.] aubergine

[Nachomamma8]

Aaaand off to bed. Will probably vote motel room if nothing interesting happens in the meantime.

[Scotty]

Canada kicked my ass in extra cell charges. And Delta lost my luggage. Again. But I'm back in the states and ready to party

Hello to Snowdog and Nacho! Nice to meet you!
My coworker's jack russel is named Nacho and he sort of fits the description that you have yourself: won't stop jumping up my leg until you get the answer (or in his case, food) you want. I like it.

I've caught up and as usual, semantic arguments are abound on day 1. Quin pulled a move that I would normally expect MM to do, which is quite WIFOMy. It doesn't look intentional and I feel like it is being blown out of proportion as an action with deceptive intent. I ain't never seen Quin's baddie game so who knows what goes on in his head.

Soneji brings up a good reminder that mafia would probably view voting as an annoyance, and this got me thinking: in precious games, I would usually never analyze day 1 votes in the grand scheme of things because- and this is mostly for a mislynch, which is most likely due to the odds of the game and minimal information- votes are prone to being tone reads only, and. It because of previous voting. Unless a baddie was lynched day 1, and we could analyze if anyone attempted a soft defense or subtly changed train directions, votes are farts in the wind. 'Mac sneezed, so I'm voting him', 'Scotty is voting low posters, so he bad', 'Boom is too bombastic to be civ' - I dunno.

I guess what I'm saying is analyzing why someone voted the way they did on day 1 is a crapshoot and gets us nowhere. If someone votes early and doesn't have their vote- the only weapon a civ has in the game- is it a behavior a baddie would employ? I think on day 1, no. But I also don't think someone like Quin should be given civ cred either. He admitted he wasn't thinking of the consequences. Let's move on.


Someone guess how I'm voting today?

[Scotty]

Hey @llama!!

Is it possible to get a player post history hyperlinked in the 1st page please? pretty pls

[Quin]

I was just being nice

[Scotty]

Also of note, I won't be here that much tomorrow (assuming deadline is when the poll expires) - I have work until the deadline and don't have the type of job that I can post from easily and so if you have any burning questions or things you want to bring up or talk, ask them in the next hour; I'll try to get to other stuff but no real promises.

So I like the cut of your jib jab (or however that phrase goes).

You mentioned earlier that you are trying to weed out like 50% of the pool to give you a better idea of who to vote for in day 1 for some sort of POE (I think that was you), and now you've probably settled on motel room. Do you usually find yourself voting for someone who seems ingenuine as like a tone thing, or who doesn't soundly defend their actions? Just by your tone it feels like the latter, like I used to banter with my lawyer uncle about the anti-establishment in government.

You also seem like MP in that these sort of semantic arguments need a profound conclusion or else you'll subtly threaten to post more until that conclusion is reached and you get the last word in. Am I right in that assumption?

I'm asking because I think I am going to be a different player than you in that I often operate under the assumption that not all answers will be given and so I take my crossword puzzle to the bathroom to think through things while I sit on my throne of thinking.

[Scotty]

I mistakenly thought that BWT was the only one that hadn't posted, and from a cursory glance it looks like sig and zebra haven't even checked in the thread yet.

And dog has even been around apparently, without posting.

[Scotty]

Ok, Items... specifically the ones which can be bought, Bananas and Grog. Can more than one be bought at once? If Stan gets the Shovel, then he'll have 30 Po8 (Pieces of Eight). Can he immediately spend 28 Po8 and buy fourteen Grog (at half price) and slam them down on a player, ensuring their lynch? Maybe even better, he could buy a bunch of Bananas, and save them for a rainy day, and never get lynched. It doesn't look like there's any lynch shenanigans among the baddies, so it's all Bananas and Grog.

What exactly do the Pirate Leaders know? What is there that Civvies and/or Cannibals do not know? Maybe they get to know when someone buys something, or the details of Stan's dealings or Carla's fight results.

Are the Men of Low Moral Fibre just vanilla baddies (with BTSC)?

Head of the Navigator - What does it mean to be invisible to ghosts? Just that LeChuck can't kill you?

Stan - His role says he can "offer players 2 pieces of eight for an item which they must trade to him." They must. Does that mean he can force the Head of the Navigator to sell his Necklace for 2 Po8? Does Stan have to know they possess the item, asking for a specific one, or is he more like a thief who pays 2 Po8 for whatever they have?

Meathook - Does he get some sort of info every night?

That's all for now. Host questions look like this.

Some of these questions seemed forced. Like 'What exactly do the pirate leaders know?"
Umm, might as well be asking how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop. Only that damned owl knows, and that's how it's gonna be.

"Are the MoLMF just vanilla" - come on man, what are you really hoping to learn from that question?
I don't mind asking questions, and actually think the others aren't bad, but in a game with secrets, those aren't just clarification, those are obviously omitted for a reason. I trust llama would reveal what he wanted to reveal originally.

[Scotty]

I wish we had changeable votes.

Hey Snow Dog, what's up buddy? Are you bad?

Bad to the bone!

No, are you?

What do you think about MM's claim to have been sent the wrong role?

Why do you think that MM's claim about being sent the wrong role has anything to do with his alignment?

Yeah, I think MM was just flirting with the Day 1 Lynch Fairy to grant him a wish again

[Scotty]

I'm overloading the tread with crap, sorry y'all. I just landed a few hours ago and feel like a kid on a candy store with all this free phone service.

[Tangrowth]

I'm here. Go ahead and celebrate. :P

[Golden]

I'm here. Go ahead and celebrate. :P

[Tangrowth]

Hello, Golden!

[Tangrowth]

I wish we had changeable votes.

Hey Snow Dog, what's up buddy? Are you bad?

Bad to the bone!

No, are you?

What do you think about MM's claim to have been sent the wrong role?

Why do you think that MM's claim about being sent the wrong role has anything to do with his alignment?

I'm just pursuing something that struck me as odd. It probably has nothing to do with his alignment.

I like this post from Snow Dog, shows that he's willing to question MM's motives even while admitting that his line of questioning is potentially worthless with respect to figuring out MM's alignment. I think a mafia Snow Dog would be more nervous and less likely to throw something like this out after over 2 years of not playing.

[Tangrowth]

I self-voted for the sake of figuring out whether they're changeable or not. Votes are not changeable.

It seems like there's some disagreement over whether this is a good or bad move. I find it rash; why vote solely for that purpose when there's still over 24 hours of daytime to go? Surely someone else would vote for suspicion reasons in that time, then report as to whether that vote was changeable. My gut says this is a convenient way for Quin to get out of voting for anyone else Day 1, and thus drawing early aggro.

Linki w/ Nacho: See, I take the opposite read here. A self-vote just to self-vote might fit your justification, but Quin's rationale isn't logical to me.
Linki w/MP: What's up is I'm trying to post :P Yeah, the Quin thing is a bit WIFOMy, but I think the explanation pushes it more toward a baddie read.
Linki w/Snow Dog: AHHHH LET ME POST

It's amusing to me that you're pursuing this line of thought because it's one that I historically have explored many times in the past when town. Unfortunately, it never seemed to generate any success in uncovering mafia, as I uncovered that nearly all of the time these early-trigger d1 self-voters that I used to get obsessively in tangents over where town-aligned.

Town players often act illogically and mafia players tend to be less risky, especially this early in the game.

[thellama73]

Hey @llama!!

Is it possible to get a player post history hyperlinked in the 1st page please? pretty pls

Tomorrow, if I am not too busy.

[Tangrowth]

I'm liking Boomslang coming into thread and pushing back, though and am excited to see more from him - if he clears himself sufficiently, the probability of a successful drunk darts game jumps up to 44% and I'm one step closer to that elusive 50% (which is probably the best I can hope for at this point in the game).

I'd call Boomslang a town read as well.

[Tangrowth]

Hey @llama!!

Is it possible to get a player post history hyperlinked in the 1st page please? pretty pls

Tomorrow, if I am not too busy.

I can work on this after I'm finished catching up.

[Tangrowth]

Hey guys, unfortunately I'll BBL.

Yes that is unfortunate.

Oh LOL I just realized my post wording was not optimal.

Though I suppose it is unfortunate that I'll be back since you all have to deal with my post count. :P

[Tangrowth]

To elaborate further: I suppose I've enjoyed the fluffy and slow paced nature of the game so far.

Me too. The recent lull in games filling up have reminded me that a game doesn't need 800 pages for you to find the baddies, and a slower pace can actually be fun!

Besides, I'll be getting distracted every 10 minutes by this -

[Tangrowth]

To elaborate further: I suppose I've enjoyed the fluffy and slow paced nature of the game so far.

Me too. The recent lull in games filling up have reminded me that a game doesn't need 800 pages for you to find the baddies, and a slower pace can actually be fun!

Besides, I'll be getting distracted every 10 minutes by this -

I don't mind slower paces but I get antsy as shit when deadline approaches and I don't have a vote I feel even vaguely positive about.

Seems you and I are similar in that regard.

[Tangrowth]

At this point I also feel obligated to apologize for how frequently I post, have tried to artificially reduce the number of times I post in the past but I find playing unnaturally kills the quality of my play and I'd rather not do that in my first game on this site (and am generally not convinced that my megawalls are any easier to parse than my large # of posts). If I'm annoying you or ruining your experience, don't be afraid to tell me!

Okay, it's official, you and I are kindred mafia spirits.

[Tangrowth]

And, while I'm at it: MovingPictures, would you mind elaborating on your LC town lean a little more? I understand there might not be much behind it, but what do you think of him scumreading DrWigly early? It seems to me that DrWigly doing something weird (like not reading his role PM) isn't really unexpected and I don't actually think there's any scum motivation behind not reading your role PM; why don't you think that he's pushing on an easy target early?

If I was able to vote and change my vote, I'd be voting Long Con for those reasons; MovingPictures is a civilian read at this point.

Yeah, there really isn't much behind it, and LC is historically difficult for me to read. LC's post history has seemed genuine to me; I like the way he handled Mac's "you're trying too hard" with "try harder", he handled the accusation well.

You make a good argument as to why Wilgy's not worth scum reading though; that's why I didn't find it worth any read personally. I've been wrong about LC before for what seemed like manufactured or opportunistic early suspicions though.

I'm historically pretty damn good at reading LC - defending him against bad accusations, attacking him when no one else will listen..

For right now I think he is town. His role analysis shines more when he is town, I think. I can't put it into exact words, but there is a depth to it that indicates genuine thought an desire to get the answers.

FWIW I got that impression as well.

[Tangrowth]

Looking back over earlier d0-d1 material and I'm really not finding anything but inconclusive fluff. There's just nothing here.

What do you make of me falling back to images and fluff?

What do you mean? Your posting seems normal to me. Plenty of content.

[Tangrowth]

Top posters so far

1. MP
2. Nacho guy
3. Me!!!

Damn straight.

[Tangrowth]

I self-voted for the sake of figuring out whether they're changeable or not. Votes are not changeable.

It seems like there's some disagreement over whether this is a good or bad move. I find it rash; why vote solely for that purpose when there's still over 24 hours of daytime to go? Surely someone else would vote for suspicion reasons in that time, then report as to whether that vote was changeable. My gut says this is a convenient way for Quin to get out of voting for anyone else Day 1, and thus drawing early aggro.

Linki w/ Nacho: See, I take the opposite read here. A self-vote just to self-vote might fit your justification, but Quin's rationale isn't logical to me.
Linki w/MP: What's up is I'm trying to post :P Yeah, the Quin thing is a bit WIFOMy, but I think the explanation pushes it more toward a baddie read.
Linki w/Snow Dog: AHHHH LET ME POST

On the other hand, rash stands out, and its not like people who self-vote on day one get a pass. In my experience, people who self-vote day one and then get lynched for it are town. But maybe it's always MM, and it's not a general rule!

I don't think the relevant question is 'was it rash', I think the relevant question is 'was it bad'. I'm inclined to agree with MP and Nacho's thoughts - it seems less likely to come from a baddie to me, early. Especially in the early game, when you are bad you want to hang on to every advantage you have and see how the game is playing out before you commit yourself.

I just want to emphasize that I still stand by my interpretation of Quin's actions here, but by no means should he receive a pass for Day 1. He needs to throw out juicy content if he wants to continue to be town read by me.

[Tangrowth]

My gut says you're town, Golden. Don't let me down. I don't want another Economics on our hands here.

[Tangrowth]

Nacho is certainly supatown. Would you say you are able to replicate this amount of effort easily as scum, Nacho?

[Tangrowth]

@Nacho : You look to rely a lot on an ability to townread and then use PoE, even this early. How much weight do you give to conscious vs unconscious scum moves? I have noticed that you approach people's posts as if you were scum in their shoes and make your read based on if you think they'd consciously post what they did with the proposed scum intent, in my experience this is rare.

Mafia generally don't purposely post as if they are mustache twirling villains even if it comes off that way in someones scumread. Their subconscious guilt is how these slips are made.

I think that most things that mafia post are unconscious, yes, but behind each unconscious post there are typically one of three guiding principles: 1) "I want to survive", 2) "I want to look town", 3) I want to lynch town. So when I say that something seems to lack scum motivation, it's because I don't think that a player would think that it doesn't push towards any one of those goals; when I say that I don't think that Metalmarsh would share his Day 1 goal of not being instantly lynched in thread, I don't think that this would be a conscious decision, I think that it's just something that he would feel uncomfortable doing. My argument for Quin being town isn't that they would sit down and weigh the advantages and disadvantages of self-voting versus not self-voting; it lies more along the lines of thinking that he would put some sort of thought before locking down one of his weapons against town so quickly and no lines of thought really point towards "no, self-vote".

Was there a argument in particular you were referring to when you made this post?

No one argument, you addressed the main two there.

Voting isn't a mafia weapon so much as it is town's. A lot of mafia players view voting as an inconvenience rather than a tool at their disposal and being freed from any pressure to vote is a blessing. Mind you, on the forum I come from I have never played a game where votes weren't changeable, mafia would be even more uncomfortable voting if they couldn't change. That they can't change weakens it's use as a weapon for them as well. The main point in Quin's favor to me is that the host wouldn't state if votes are final, forcing someone to vote to find out. Would have been preferable for him to vote a scumread but as is, hes not high up on potential lynch candidates.

Would you say your suspicion of Long Con stems from a differing view on if chaotic posts like Wilgy's are scummy? I don't see any way to look at Wilgy's post favorably. If he is telling the truth about not looking at his role PM, then he is going against the spirit of the rules and if he did get randomized scum, will not display the subconscious guilt that comes from one knowing they are scum. If he is lying then his motivation can only be to deceive or troll.

[VOTE: ] aubergine

[VOTE:

This is essentially a policy lynch vote. I don't like it. Give me something else to work with here, Soneji.] aubergine

[Tangrowth]

Canada kicked my ass in extra cell charges. And Delta lost my luggage. Again. But I'm back in the states and ready to party

Hello to Snowdog and Nacho! Nice to meet you!
My coworker's jack russel is named Nacho and he sort of fits the description that you have yourself: won't stop jumping up my leg until you get the answer (or in his case, food) you want. I like it.

I've caught up and as usual, semantic arguments are abound on day 1. Quin pulled a move that I would normally expect MM to do, which is quite WIFOMy. It doesn't look intentional and I feel like it is being blown out of proportion as an action with deceptive intent. I ain't never seen Quin's baddie game so who knows what goes on in his head.

Soneji brings up a good reminder that mafia would probably view voting as an annoyance, and this got me thinking: in precious games, I would usually never analyze day 1 votes in the grand scheme of things because- and this is mostly for a mislynch, which is most likely due to the odds of the game and minimal information- votes are prone to being tone reads only, and. It because of previous voting. Unless a baddie was lynched day 1, and we could analyze if anyone attempted a soft defense or subtly changed train directions, votes are farts in the wind. 'Mac sneezed, so I'm voting him', 'Scotty is voting low posters, so he bad', 'Boom is too bombastic to be civ' - I dunno.

I guess what I'm saying is analyzing why someone voted the way they did on day 1 is a crapshoot and gets us nowhere. If someone votes early and doesn't have their vote- the only weapon a civ has in the game- is it a behavior a baddie would employ? I think on day 1, no. But I also don't think someone like Quin should be given civ cred either. He admitted he wasn't thinking of the consequences. Let's move on.


Someone guess how I'm voting today?

I like this bolded/underlined stuff. I'm not even really sure why I do, but it seems unnecessarily "thinking aloud" if Scotty were mafia, if that makes sense. I don't think I'm making sense. It's getting late.

[Tangrowth]

Who wants a rainbow? I'll work on one now.

[Tangrowth]

Monkey Island -- Day 1 -- MP Rainbow #1

Boomslang
Golden
Long Con
Macdougall
Nachomamma8
Quin
Scotty
Snow Dog

a2thezebra
Black Rock
DFaraday
DrWilgy
Elohcin
Epignosis
Metalmarsh89
motel room
nijuukyugou
sig
Vompatti

Soneji

Pretty early rainbow, hence players are not ranked within groups (note that they are alphabetical), and I only have slight town and slight mafia reads. I'll distinguish between varying strengths of my reads as the need arises.

Note to self: review the thread and find some more mafia reads, dammit.

[Tangrowth]

Nacho, whenever you get a chance, let's talk about motel room. I haven't seen any reason to throw him out of the null range yet.

[thellama73]

MP, you've posted 17 times in a row. Is that a record for you? :P

[Tangrowth]

Hey yellow / null reads, I need to hear some game-related thoughts from you. Thanks.

[Tangrowth]

MP, you've posted 17 times in a row. Is that a record for you? :P

Hmmmm, not sure. Probably not. Probably close though. Way to break it, jerk.

[Soneji]

@Nacho : You look to rely a lot on an ability to townread and then use PoE, even this early. How much weight do you give to conscious vs unconscious scum moves? I have noticed that you approach people's posts as if you were scum in their shoes and make your read based on if you think they'd consciously post what they did with the proposed scum intent, in my experience this is rare.

Mafia generally don't purposely post as if they are mustache twirling villains even if it comes off that way in someones scumread. Their subconscious guilt is how these slips are made.

I think that most things that mafia post are unconscious, yes, but behind each unconscious post there are typically one of three guiding principles: 1) "I want to survive", 2) "I want to look town", 3) I want to lynch town. So when I say that something seems to lack scum motivation, it's because I don't think that a player would think that it doesn't push towards any one of those goals; when I say that I don't think that Metalmarsh would share his Day 1 goal of not being instantly lynched in thread, I don't think that this would be a conscious decision, I think that it's just something that he would feel uncomfortable doing. My argument for Quin being town isn't that they would sit down and weigh the advantages and disadvantages of self-voting versus not self-voting; it lies more along the lines of thinking that he would put some sort of thought before locking down one of his weapons against town so quickly and no lines of thought really point towards "no, self-vote".

Was there a argument in particular you were referring to when you made this post?

No one argument, you addressed the main two there.

Voting isn't a mafia weapon so much as it is town's. A lot of mafia players view voting as an inconvenience rather than a tool at their disposal and being freed from any pressure to vote is a blessing. Mind you, on the forum I come from I have never played a game where votes weren't changeable, mafia would be even more uncomfortable voting if they couldn't change. That they can't change weakens it's use as a weapon for them as well. The main point in Quin's favor to me is that the host wouldn't state if votes are final, forcing someone to vote to find out. Would have been preferable for him to vote a scumread but as is, hes not high up on potential lynch candidates.

Would you say your suspicion of Long Con stems from a differing view on if chaotic posts like Wilgy's are scummy? I don't see any way to look at Wilgy's post favorably. If he is telling the truth about not looking at his role PM, then he is going against the spirit of the rules and if he did get randomized scum, will not display the subconscious guilt that comes from one knowing they are scum. If he is lying then his motivation can only be to deceive or troll.

[VOTE: ] aubergine

[VOTE:

This is essentially a policy lynch vote. I don't like it. Give me something else to work with here, Soneji.] aubergine

[VOTE:
This community must have a different definition of what a policy lynch is. On NF it is lynching someone who has proven time and again to offer nothing as a townie, without any posts that game that point to them being scum. Wilgy has already shown a pension for the chaotic this game and that makes him more likely scum than town.


I have posted about everything that has caught my eye so far, nor do I have reason to appeal to you in any manner.] aubergine

[Tangrowth]

No one argument, you addressed the main two there.

Voting isn't a mafia weapon so much as it is town's. A lot of mafia players view voting as an inconvenience rather than a tool at their disposal and being freed from any pressure to vote is a blessing. Mind you, on the forum I come from I have never played a game where votes weren't changeable, mafia would be even more uncomfortable voting if they couldn't change. That they can't change weakens it's use as a weapon for them as well. The main point in Quin's favor to me is that the host wouldn't state if votes are final, forcing someone to vote to find out. Would have been preferable for him to vote a scumread but as is, hes not high up on potential lynch candidates.

Would you say your suspicion of Long Con stems from a differing view on if chaotic posts like Wilgy's are scummy? I don't see any way to look at Wilgy's post favorably. If he is telling the truth about not looking at his role PM, then he is going against the spirit of the rules and if he did get randomized scum, will not display the subconscious guilt that comes from one knowing they are scum. If he is lying then his motivation can only be to deceive or troll.

[VOTE: ] aubergine

[VOTE:

This is essentially a policy lynch vote. I don't like it. Give me something else to work with here, Soneji.] aubergine

[VOTE:
This community must have a different definition of what a policy lynch is. On NF it is lynching someone who has proven time and again to offer nothing as a townie, without any posts that game that point to them being scum. Wilgy has already shown a pension for the chaotic this game and that makes him more likely scum than town.


I have posted about everything that has caught my eye so far, nor do I have reason to appeal to you in any manner.] aubergine

[VOTE:

I disagree with your conclusion here. Why is his behavior not town compatible?

You're my sole mafia read, which means you would receive my vote right now if we had changeable votes or the deadline was soon. How is that not a compelling reason to appeal to me?] aubergine

[Tangrowth]

If there's one thing I've learned over nearly 7 years of playing mafia now, it's absolutely that chaotic, illogical, or weird are not more likely scum than town behavior. That's perhaps the biggest source of mislynch I've ever seen. Perhaps your experience is different than mine, Soneji, and if so I'm all ears.

[Tangrowth]

Well, I'm out for now. I should be around at some point tomorrow, not sure how long though. Probably not very since it'll be a busy day. Fridays usually are.

[sig]

Hey Mac, it's clear we are both civilian this game so let's team up.

Seems a little early MP.

Also up to page six and nobody has mentioned me yet. I'm insulted.

[Soneji]

No one argument, you addressed the main two there.

Voting isn't a mafia weapon so much as it is town's. A lot of mafia players view voting as an inconvenience rather than a tool at their disposal and being freed from any pressure to vote is a blessing. Mind you, on the forum I come from I have never played a game where votes weren't changeable, mafia would be even more uncomfortable voting if they couldn't change. That they can't change weakens it's use as a weapon for them as well. The main point in Quin's favor to me is that the host wouldn't state if votes are final, forcing someone to vote to find out. Would have been preferable for him to vote a scumread but as is, hes not high up on potential lynch candidates.

Would you say your suspicion of Long Con stems from a differing view on if chaotic posts like Wilgy's are scummy? I don't see any way to look at Wilgy's post favorably. If he is telling the truth about not looking at his role PM, then he is going against the spirit of the rules and if he did get randomized scum, will not display the subconscious guilt that comes from one knowing they are scum. If he is lying then his motivation can only be to deceive or troll.

[VOTE: ] aubergine

[VOTE:

This is essentially a policy lynch vote. I don't like it. Give me something else to work with here, Soneji.] aubergine

[VOTE:
This community must have a different definition of what a policy lynch is. On NF it is lynching someone who has proven time and again to offer nothing as a townie, without any posts that game that point to them being scum. Wilgy has already shown a pension for the chaotic this game and that makes him more likely scum than town.


I have posted about everything that has caught my eye so far, nor do I have reason to appeal to you in any manner.] aubergine

[VOTE:

I disagree with your conclusion here. Why is his behavior not town compatible?

You're my sole mafia read, which means you would receive my vote right now if we had changeable votes or the deadline was soon. How is that not a compelling reason to appeal to me?] aubergine

[VOTE:
More likely scum than town=/=not town compatible. You say in your next post that illogical, weird and chaotic generally haven't been signs of scum in your experience and I would agree with two of those three. Weird and/or seemingly illogical posters have gotten mislynched on NF on average and I usually have fought against those lynches. Chaotic however has flipped mafia more often and is a general detriment to the game. As I explained earlier, Wilgy's claim can only be trollish, deceptive or disruptive...nothing townish to find.

I will defend my position on my vote but your post came off as wanting me to put together more reads, which I won't be doing at this time as I have already given my thoughts on everything I intend to. You are used to rainbow reads and frequent town lists here, even in the early game. On NF it isn't all that uncommon for people to have town reads but it is not how I operate, I have no town reads just varying levels of scumreads. I focus mainly on a few people at a time early on while taking note of what others are doing, sometimes you need to wait before launching your attack or else your prey will clamp up before you have a strong case.] aubergine

[sig]

Also, obligatory finger-pointing at a2zebra, sig, and motel room for either not posting in Day 1 or posting nothing of substance. Sig, I see you lurking. What's on your mind?

That math test wasn't to hard
Roommate is dumb
Shameless is a good show y'all should watch it
Zebra has been quiet (hello pot meet kettle lets both be black together)
Drunken Motel seemed a little weird
I dislike Mac clearing Motel for being drunk, very pingy?
No vibes from LC either way I'll ISO him later
Nacho is posting alot looking good, but I think we should watch him a mafia member becoming a town leader can be devastating
I dislike the vote for Wilgy, this is his normal behavior
Epi is being very fluffy, which is normal but less content then usually.
and I remember very little from MP's posts which is odd since I know he is posting alot, I just can't recall them.

So a few minor pings for MP, Mac, and Motel.

Boom and Quin both look okay so far. \

And I'm off to bed, but I'll be on tomorrow with a few more in depth reads (hopefully) and around to cast my vote. I plan to look over LC, MP, and Mac before voting.

[Golden]

Looking back over earlier d0-d1 material and I'm really not finding anything but inconclusive fluff. There's just nothing here.

What do you make of me falling back to images and fluff?

What do you mean? Your posting seems normal to me. Plenty of content.

You just came along too late, I started posting content after that!

[Golden]

Hey Mac, it's clear we are both civilian this game so let's team up.

Seems a little early MP.

Also up to page six and nobody has mentioned me yet. I'm insulted.

I was just about to mention you. I have to vote before I go to bed, and your absence might get my vote unless you give me some reason not to. I know you are busy, but i want your siggish thoughts.

[Marmot]

also MM i think we did play together :o

Well I'll be damned. Good to see you again all these years later.

[Marmot]

Would anyone believe me if I told them I've got a town read on myself?

[Long Con]

LC, what did you gain from your role analysis?

Better knowledge of the game, and thoughts about Po8 and how to deal with them.

Hello, I did check my role PM before I came here.

Man, I would hate to be on your team if I were bad.

Yeah, Wilgy is already suspicious to me.

Yeah, I've decided that being blind will be my meme play this game.

Indeed.

Voted melee island - that's always where the adventure starts. You can't cut right to the third act.

Good point. Same-same.

Found it!
Long Con, why is Wigly suspicious for not checking their role PM?
I don't think actions get more neutral than "not checking role PM" unless somehow you think that he's scum trying to buy himself a free pass by saying he's not checking his role PM which seems just a touch conspiracy theory to me.

I just think he's not being honest, because deliberately not looking at your role makes no sense at all to me. As Scotty points out, it would really screw the scum team if Wilgy were one of them.

Also, I think he is trying to drop a vague role-hint, which I am not buying at all.

This is reassuring; I did like LC's questions and thoughts about baddie roles in particular but wasn't sure how comfortable he was mimicking his role speculation as scum.

For the record: quite comfortable.

Ok, Items... specifically the ones which can be bought, Bananas and Grog. Can more than one be bought at once? If Stan gets the Shovel, then he'll have 30 Po8 (Pieces of Eight). Can he immediately spend 28 Po8 and buy fourteen Grog (at half price) and slam them down on a player, ensuring their lynch? Maybe even better, he could buy a bunch of Bananas, and save them for a rainy day, and never get lynched. It doesn't look like there's any lynch shenanigans among the baddies, so it's all Bananas and Grog.

What exactly do the Pirate Leaders know? What is there that Civvies and/or Cannibals do not know? Maybe they get to know when someone buys something, or the details of Stan's dealings or Carla's fight results.

Are the Men of Low Moral Fibre just vanilla baddies (with BTSC)?

Head of the Navigator - What does it mean to be invisible to ghosts? Just that LeChuck can't kill you?

Stan - His role says he can "offer players 2 pieces of eight for an item which they must trade to him." They must. Does that mean he can force the Head of the Navigator to sell his Necklace for 2 Po8? Does Stan have to know they possess the item, asking for a specific one, or is he more like a thief who pays 2 Po8 for whatever they have?

Meathook - Does he get some sort of info every night?

That's all for now. Host questions look like this.

Some of these questions seemed forced. Like 'What exactly do the pirate leaders know?"
Umm, might as well be asking how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop. Only that damned owl knows, and that's how it's gonna be.

That was more for the players, the follow-up questions clarify my thoughts at that point. I think a bit of discussion about what probably isn't possible could help narrow down what likely is. Information is a powerful thing, so it behooves us to be aware of what advantages the baddies do or don't have, so that our theories and ideas can take them into account.

"Are the MoLMF just vanilla" - come on man, what are you really hoping to learn from that question?
I don't mind asking questions, and actually think the others aren't bad, but in a game with secrets, those aren't just clarification, those are obviously omitted for a reason. I trust llama would reveal what he wanted to reveal originally.

Ennhh... yeah, you're right about that one, I didn't expect much from it. That was more of a "wrote it down because the question occurred to me" kind of thing.

Would anyone believe me if I told them I've got a town read on myself?

Too early to tell, I think.

This is how I don't post 17 times in a row. Ctrl-click a post's Quote button and write a response, then copy and paste it all at the end of a growing post as I go along. Either way works. Post count becomes more meaningless when a posting blitz like this happens... but on the other hand, how meaningful is it in the first place? I have a bad feeling about MP07 because he seems to be buddying people hard. That makes me suspicious because I have seen and caught baddies a number of times in the past by recognizing this behaviour.

I'm going to bed soon...and when I get up I'm going to parent-teacher interviews, and then directly to work until after the lynch is up. So I gotta vote now. My suspicion of MP feels better than my suspicion of Wilgy (probably due in part to Nacho's repeated viewpoint that no suspicion should arise from Wilgy's "no-role-look"), so I'll vote MP and say good night.

*votes MovingPictures07*

[MacDougall]

Also, obligatory finger-pointing at a2zebra, sig, and motel room for either not posting in Day 1 or posting nothing of substance. Sig, I see you lurking. What's on your mind?

That math test wasn't to hard
Roommate is dumb
Shameless is a good show y'all should watch it
Zebra has been quiet (hello pot meet kettle lets both be black together)
Drunken Motel seemed a little weird
I dislike Mac clearing Motel for being drunk, very pingy?
No vibes from LC either way I'll ISO him later
Nacho is posting alot looking good, but I think we should watch him a mafia member becoming a town leader can be devastating
I dislike the vote for Wilgy, this is his normal behavior
Epi is being very fluffy, which is normal but less content then usually.
and I remember very little from MP's posts which is odd since I know he is posting alot, I just can't recall them.

So a few minor pings for MP, Mac, and Motel.

Boom and Quin both look okay so far. \

And I'm off to bed, but I'll be on tomorrow with a few more in depth reads (hopefully) and around to cast my vote. I plan to look over LC, MP, and Mac before voting.

Sig is town guys.