A Mafia of Unfortunate Events [END GAME]

[Scotty]

I think LC has his land and water backwards. I voted East because the pyramid looks good.

Thought edit - unless I am missing a compass somewhere that LC saw.

No you're right. LC is Spider-Man and was reading the map upside down.

Also Mary Jane isn't coming, LC.

By the way, is Day 0 followed by Day 1 or Night 0?

It is almost always followed by Day 1 here

[Scotty]

Day 0 reads: JoH is bad and INH is his teammate.

Do I win?

[insertnamehere]

Day 0 reads: JoH is bad and INH is his teammate.

Do I win?

You win the medal of wrong-ness.

Get it?

It's because you're wrong.

[Tangrowth]

Hey all! Just checking in to say yay game! And to alert you all that my activity is going to be very limited for the next week or so. I flew into Cincinnati this past Thursday and I'm here until Christmas Eve visiting my family and friends, and I'm not sure I'll be able to make another trip for a long while, so RL is taking super priority right now.

I'll catch up and phone post stuff when I can though.

[a2thezebra]

Day 0 reads: JoH is bad and INH is his teammate.

Do I win?

You win the medal of wrong-ness.

Get it?

It's because you're wrong.

This response is so forced I'm tempted to agree with him.

[a2thezebra]

But DDL looks far worse than either INH or JoH based on that back-and-forth.

[insertnamehere]

Day 0 reads: JoH is bad and INH is his teammate.

Do I win?

You win the medal of wrong-ness.

Get it?

It's because you're wrong.

This response is so forced I'm tempted to agree with him.

Then you'd be booking a one-way ticket to Wrongville based on your own fallacious assumptions.

[a2thezebra]

Why didn't you respond to this?

I agree that what Snow Dog's doing is idiotic and not helping the civilian cause in any way, shape, or form.

I just don't think he's necessarily bad for it. I remember an earlier game where I suspected (I think it was Wilgy? Eh, probably Wilgy.) for doing the same thing only for him to flip civ.

The only thing that any of this makes me feel is slightly better about Jackofhearts, who seems to have the same instinctual response as me to this type of (in my opinion) braggadocious (a word which here means "gutsy reaction based tactics") play.

But Jackofhearts and DDL don't seem to care that he might not necessarily be bad for it. Don't you think that makes them look bad?

I think they're making the mistake of confusing styles of gameplay that they find counter-intuitive and actual scumtells.

I should know, I've made that exact mistake many a time as a civilian. In fact, that's my biggest difficulty as a townie, usually.

But they can't be making that mistake, because both of them have acknowledged that Snow Dog not reading his rolecard is not in itself alignment-indicative. Both are not arguing for a lynch based on alignment but rather a policy lynch. If I felt they were making that mistake then I would give them more credit, but they clearly understand that what they're advocating for is the killing of a potential civ for reasons that aren't alignment-indicative and they still advocate for it anyway.

[Soneji]

I think it's weird that there are places that tell the role of the nightkilled player by default. Everything I have seen, it's part of the essential mystery of the game to have nightkills be unknown.

The only true mystery there needs to be in the core mafia game is who is mafia. Part of the unraveling of that mystery is seeing who flips mafia to make associative reads, default janitoring hinders that to an extent. I also can't get behind a system where there is no info dumping alongside default janitoring, the balance of no info dumping is still being able to see the cop/tracker/watcher flip then work out if their strong reads were based on scumhunting or ability info.

Janitoring should be tied to a role and/or be a limited resource.

Get used to it, it's part of the site's charm.

I think the info-dumping thing is particulary refreshing, it forces townies out of their ability-only confort zone.

I am used to it, will never agree it is good game design though.

I like the no info dumping rule, just not when combined with default janitor kills.


Seems the issue with SD, INH, JoH, DDL and Zebra here is more tolerance of specific "playstyles". Not reading your role is basically akin to cheating in my eyes. Given Wilgy doing this in the Monkey Island game, which Snow Dog was part of, I wouldn't jump on it d1 unless other factors added onto it.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

In fact not only is it a baseless assumption but if we look at previous claims of players not reading their rolecard in past games, they are usually lying. Their reasons for doing so vary wildly but not all of them are mafia-motivated and on some level DDL and Jackofhearts must recognize this.

He could be lying, but we have zero evidence of that. And past games is not evidence. This is mafia, everything can happen.

And, if he is lying, I see that as a way more likely sign of him being bad than otherwise. Lying as a civ is usually a bad move.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I'm trying to get a read on Zebra but I'm arguing with her in two games at once and it's confusing the hell out of me.

I'm pretty sure I deduced she was civ in one game and scum in the other one a couple hours ago, but I can remember which game was each now. I'll let you guys know when I figure it out.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

Also she is voting for me in both games at the same time, so I have to evaluate whether my own suspicions aren't being clouded by OMGUS. In both games, separately.

Help.

[Long Con]

Yeah Golden, I caught that on re-look. I was flippity-dippin' on da terrain, yo.

Scotty... no Mary Jane? Damn...

Here's my only take on the Snow Dog situation: no one didn't look at their role card. It's too exciting to get a role, especially in a power-full game like this. Snow Dog is messing with you.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I've seen fingersplints say she liked to play games without reading her role card. It was an off-topic context.

It's not a new thing to this site, apparently.

[insertnamehere]

Why didn't you respond to this?

I agree that what Snow Dog's doing is idiotic and not helping the civilian cause in any way, shape, or form.

I just don't think he's necessarily bad for it. I remember an earlier game where I suspected (I think it was Wilgy? Eh, probably Wilgy.) for doing the same thing only for him to flip civ.

The only thing that any of this makes me feel is slightly better about Jackofhearts, who seems to have the same instinctual response as me to this type of (in my opinion) braggadocious (a word which here means "gutsy reaction based tactics") play.

But Jackofhearts and DDL don't seem to care that he might not necessarily be bad for it. Don't you think that makes them look bad?

I think they're making the mistake of confusing styles of gameplay that they find counter-intuitive and actual scumtells.

I should know, I've made that exact mistake many a time as a civilian. In fact, that's my biggest difficulty as a townie, usually.

But they can't be making that mistake, because both of them have acknowledged that Snow Dog not reading his rolecard is not in itself alignment-indicative. Both are not arguing for a lynch based on alignment but rather a policy lynch. If I felt they were making that mistake then I would give them more credit, but they clearly understand that what they're advocating for is the killing of a potential civ for reasons that aren't alignment-indicative and they still advocate for it anyway.

DDL doesn't seem to be advocating for lynching Snow Doggie Dog D1, at least right now, and I'd chalk JoH up to culture clash.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I would be if I didn't know we had a vig, honestly.

[Dom]

bell curve

[Snow Dog]

First of all..

I'm playing without reading my role.

In this game, I will defend Snow Dog to the death.

Second....Wow! My claim to have not read my role certainly has stirred up things around here. My little homage to Dr Wilgey's claim in Monley Island has sparked some lively debate. So what happens now? If I claim I was joking can you believe that? Am I forever tarnished?

[insertnamehere]

First of all..

I'm playing without reading my role.

In this game, I will defend Snow Dog to the death.

Second....Wow! My claim to have not read my role certainly has stirred up things around here. My little homage to Dr Wilgey's claim in Monley Island has sparked some lively debate. So what happens now? If I claim I was joking can you believe that? Am I forever tarnished?

*shines bright desk light in Snow Dog's face*

Have you read your role PM, and are you fully aware of the implications of its contents, Mister Dog?

[Quin]

I could get behind splitting the difference with alignment only flips. While no janitoring is more comfortable to me, I'm big on trying new things.

I'm playing without reading my role.

This seems like a terrible idea.

If you're being truthful and you're town, this only hurts your performance.

If you're being truthful and you're scum, maybe you don't accidentally give yourself away with a scumtell.

You could also be scum and lying, using this as a shield. "Anything scummy I say can't actually be scummy cause I don't even know my alignment."

I'm with the marmot. You seem like a great first lynch.

DrWilgy did the exact same thing in Monkey Island, so I'm taking Snow Dog's post as a jokey reference to that. On no planet is there a person who's seriously played a game where they haven't checked their role. If they're bad then it's a massive kick in the teeth to his/her teammates. Same to any alignment, really.

[Quin]

Hey gang,

Sloonei and I are going to cooperatively serve as MoDs in this game. If you have any concerns at all or become frustrated, angry, or otherwise miffed, please shoot one of us or both of us a PM and we'll talk it through with you. I'm sure it'll be a great game and I look forward to following along.

Hello folks! I am indeed the other member of your RYM MoD Squad for this game. Ditto everything Jay just said. This is a great looking crew and I look forward to watching the game unfold.

Who do you go to if you get into a heated argument over who's the better MoD?

[Snow Dog]

First of all..

I'm playing without reading my role.

In this game, I will defend Snow Dog to the death.

Second....Wow! My claim to have not read my role certainly has stirred up things around here. My little homage to Dr Wilgey's claim in Monley Island has sparked some lively debate. So what happens now? If I claim I was joking can you believe that? Am I forever tarnished?

*shines bright desk light in Snow Dog's face*

Have you read your role PM, and are you fully aware of the implications of its contents, Mister Dog?

*blinking nervously into light, perspiration beading on forehead*

Y-y-y-yes, Sir.

[Quin]

I'm okay with policy lynching Snow Dog.

Or rather, policy vigging him. A player who doesn't know their alignment is a waste of a lynch.

I strongly disapprove of this post with all due respect.

Me too.

[Snow Dog]

What is vigging?

[Quin]

Snow Dog has no alignment. All attempts to read him are pointless. There is no way to call him a civ or bad, because he has no winning condition. He has no intention to win for either side. He is not playing the game.

Why should he be kept alive?

Every lynch is a policy lynch. We take down people who don't contribute to town's cause, for reasons we decide at the time. This guy is the least contributive a player can possibly be.

You didn't play Monkey Island, so I can barely understand why you're taking Snow Dog seriously.

I take that back, even in Monkey Island where I was seeing it for the first time I knew Wilgy was bullshitting us.

[Quin]

What is vigging?

Ninja'ing, is what the Syndicate calls it apparently.

It's a civ night kill, essentially.

[Quin]

You're watching a guy throw pretzels in the water and a) assuming he's fishing and b) assuming that throwing pretzels in the water will lead to catching fish.

I'm watching the same guy and saying he's not contributing to solving our food shortage.

This guy is gonna give Scotty a run for his money in the metaphor department.

[Dragon D. Luffy]

I almost want to put that in my sig.

[Quin]

First of all..

I'm playing without reading my role.

In this game, I will defend Snow Dog to the death.

Second....Wow! My claim to have not read my role certainly has stirred up things around here. My little homage to Dr Wilgey's claim in Monley Island has sparked some lively debate. So what happens now? If I claim I was joking can you believe that? Am I forever tarnished?

yh

[Dom]

First of all..

I'm playing without reading my role.

In this game, I will defend Snow Dog to the death.

Second....Wow! My claim to have not read my role certainly has stirred up things around here. My little homage to Dr Wilgey's claim in Monley Island has sparked some lively debate. So what happens now? If I claim I was joking can you believe that? Am I forever tarnished?

Neither way ever mattered to me.

[Scotty]

You're watching a guy throw pretzels in the water and a) assuming he's fishing and b) assuming that throwing pretzels in the water will lead to catching fish.

I'm watching the same guy and saying he's not contributing to solving our food shortage.

This guy is gonna give Scotty a run for his money in the metaphor department.

Nah, my job security is airtight. He can do the metaphors. I'll handle the shitty similes. (And the alliterations, aight?) i know that was assonance, you ass

[Epignosis]

I could get behind splitting the difference with alignment only flips. While no janitoring is more comfortable to me, I'm big on trying new things.

I'm playing without reading my role.

This seems like a terrible idea.

If you're being truthful and you're town, this only hurts your performance.

If you're being truthful and you're scum, maybe you don't accidentally give yourself away with a scumtell.

You could also be scum and lying, using this as a shield. "Anything scummy I say can't actually be scummy cause I don't even know my alignment."

I'm with the marmot. You seem like a great first lynch.

You must be new here.

Welcome!

[Epignosis]

Saying complete bullshit that makes yourself look bad just to get a reaction? There are better ways to get reactions that don't involve making yourself look bad.

Oh boy. I like this fellow.

[Long Con]

I almost want to put that in my sig.

Yeah, the fact that he used a metaphor is blowing my mind.

[Elohcin]

Checking in, folks. I had a wonderful day celebrating Christmas with Epi's family today. I am not caught up on the thread and I don't think I will do so. Four pages in Day 0. Y'all are out of your minds.

North, East, South, West - Never Eat Sugar Wafers. No, really...those things are pretty gross. I will pick......North. Because it's Christmas and that is where Santa lives. AND....it gives me the opportunity to tell you a funny story. This morning my youngest was in class at church. His teacher asked him, "Ephraim, what is Santa bringing you for Christmas?" Ephraim responded, "Well, I know that Santa isn't real." *Uncomfortable Silence*

[Epignosis]

I agree that what Snow Dog's doing is idiotic and not helping the civilian cause in any way, shape, or form.

Hey guess what? I read my role as soon as I received it.

Am I helping the civilian cause yet?

[Sloonei]

Hey gang,

Sloonei and I are going to cooperatively serve as MoDs in this game. If you have any concerns at all or become frustrated, angry, or otherwise miffed, please shoot one of us or both of us a PM and we'll talk it through with you. I'm sure it'll be a great game and I look forward to following along.

Hello folks! I am indeed the other member of your RYM MoD Squad for this game. Ditto everything Jay just said. This is a great looking crew and I look forward to watching the game unfold.

Who do you go to if you get into a heated argument over who's the better MoD?

We fight to the death.

[Epignosis]

Snow Dog has no alignment. All attempts to read him are pointless. There is no way to call him a civ or bad, because he has no winning condition. He has no intention to win for either side. He is not playing the game.

Why should he be kept alive?

Every lynch is a policy lynch. We take down people who don't contribute to town's cause, for reasons we decide at the time. This guy is the least contributive a player can possibly be.

Every statement within this post is false. For one, Snow Dog does have an alignment. Whether he knows what alignment that is is up for debate, but he does have one. All attempts to read him are pointless only operating under the assumption that he is playing without reading his alignment, which even then doesn't make it pointless to read him because not knowing your alignment doesn't automatically dictate whether or not you are going to attempt to genuinely contribute to the town cause. Not reading one's role card is a bold unorthodox move, if we are willing to acknowledge that why are we unwilling to consider bold unorthodox explanations for this move? Saying it's a bad move has no bearing on whether or not it is alignment-indicative. He does have a winning condition. We don't know what his intentions are. He most certainly is playing the game.

He should be kept alive so we can figure out his intentions and decipher if he in fact has read his role card, and what his alignment is.

Snow Dog's decision to not read his role card, or at least his claim that he hasn't, has sparked more discussion than anything else so far in the game. And yet you have the nerve to say that he is the least contributive a player can possibly be? Either you are being disingenuous or downright stubborn. No, not every lynch is a policy lynch and no, we do not take down people who don't contribute to town's cause. We take down people who do contribute to the anti-town cause. The difference is monumental and you seem to be choosing to pretend that it isn't. My eye is on MM, Jackofhearts, and you, but especially you after this post.

Town's cause is to lynch scum.
Scum's cause is not to lynch scum.

Town is active. Scum is passive. Scum plays by stalling and not actually doing things. If someone is not trying to scum, they are more likely to be bad. Because that's the bread and butter of bads.

I concede that Snow Dog could help civs, if say, he decide to scum baddies despite potentially betraying his own team. I still argue that he is 100% unreadable, though. Because there is zero connection between his alignment and his posts. And if he is 100% unreadable, how are we supposed to trust him. How can we make the call to leave him alive. It's basically lottery.

We should either investigate him and hope someone manages to hint through the role reveal ban, or vig him. But leaving him alive and unchecked is leaving the game to pure chance. And I don't like games of pure chance.

The enlarged part is untrue. Read the first post in this thread.

I agree that what Snow Dog's doing is idiotic and not helping the civilian cause in any way, shape, or form.

I just don't think he's necessarily bad for it. I remember an earlier game where I suspected (I think it was Wilgy? Eh, probably Wilgy.) for doing the same thing only for him to flip civ.

The only thing that any of this makes me feel is slightly better about Jackofhearts, who seems to have the same instinctual response as me to this type of (in my opinion) braggadocious (a word which here means "gutsy reaction based tactics") play.

But Jackofhearts and DDL don't seem to care that he might not necessarily be bad for it. Don't you think that makes them look bad?

That is not the problem. The problem is being okay with the idea that one player is allowed to go through all game without having his alignment read.

What do we do to him once we get to a point where we have to decide if he is civ or bad?

What point is that?

[Epignosis]

Additionally, if "scum is passive" then I'm terrible when I'm Mafia. If you really believe that DDL, then you would be eager to lynch someone who hadn't posted at all at that point (like me or Eloh), but you went for Snow Dog. Why?

[Jackofhearts2005]

I could get behind splitting the difference with alignment only flips. While no janitoring is more comfortable to me, I'm big on trying new things.

I'm playing without reading my role.

This seems like a terrible idea.

If you're being truthful and you're town, this only hurts your performance.

If you're being truthful and you're scum, maybe you don't accidentally give yourself away with a scumtell.

You could also be scum and lying, using this as a shield. "Anything scummy I say can't actually be scummy cause I don't even know my alignment."

I'm with the marmot. You seem like a great first lynch.

DrWilgy did the exact same thing in Monkey Island, so I'm taking Snow Dog's post as a jokey reference to that. On no planet is there a person who's seriously played a game where they haven't checked their role. If they're bad then it's a massive kick in the teeth to his/her teammates. Same to any alignment, really.

I find this all to be reasonable.

However, your assertion that nobody would ever do this for realzies stands in stark contrast to Zebra claiming that not reading one's role pm can be a useful for cutting off pressure and causing a townie to not choke, an assertion I find to be quite silly.

Putting SD back on mostly neutral terms unless Zebra ends up flipping mafia.

Now, maybe Zebra has been playing mafia in Opposite Land where lying as a townie to the point where several players consider a policy lynch on you is good strategy but lying as scum is simply not done. I'll reserve full judgement of if this is scummy behavior or just really jarring culture clash until later. It's only D0 after all.

Generally, though, when I see what I consider to be an illogical defense of another player, I assume reasons other than pure logic are at work.

You're watching a guy throw pretzels in the water and a) assuming he's fishing and b) assuming that throwing pretzels in the water will lead to catching fish.

I'm watching the same guy and saying he's not contributing to solving our food shortage.

This guy is gonna give Scotty a run for his money in the metaphor department.

Nah, my job security is airtight. He can do the metaphors. I'll handle the shitty similes. (And the alliterations, aight?) i know that was assonance, you ass

Deal.

@Epi

Hi, there.

[Quin]

I could get behind splitting the difference with alignment only flips. While no janitoring is more comfortable to me, I'm big on trying new things.

I'm playing without reading my role.

This seems like a terrible idea.

If you're being truthful and you're town, this only hurts your performance.

If you're being truthful and you're scum, maybe you don't accidentally give yourself away with a scumtell.

You could also be scum and lying, using this as a shield. "Anything scummy I say can't actually be scummy cause I don't even know my alignment."

I'm with the marmot. You seem like a great first lynch.

DrWilgy did the exact same thing in Monkey Island, so I'm taking Snow Dog's post as a jokey reference to that. On no planet is there a person who's seriously played a game where they haven't checked their role. If they're bad then it's a massive kick in the teeth to his/her teammates. Same to any alignment, really.

I find this all to be reasonable.

However, your assertion that nobody would ever do this for realzies stands in stark contrast to Zebra claiming that not reading one's role pm can be a useful for cutting off pressure and causing a townie to not choke, an assertion I find to be quite silly.

Putting SD back on mostly neutral terms unless Zebra ends up flipping mafia.

Now, maybe Zebra has been playing mafia in Opposite Land where lying as a townie to the point where several players consider a policy lynch on you is good strategy but lying as scum is simply not done. I'll reserve full judgement of if this is scummy behavior or just really jarring culture clash until later. It's only D0 after all.

Generally, though, when I see what I consider to be an illogical defense of another player, I assume reasons other than pure logic are at work.

You're watching a guy throw pretzels in the water and a) assuming he's fishing and b) assuming that throwing pretzels in the water will lead to catching fish.

I'm watching the same guy and saying he's not contributing to solving our food shortage.

This guy is gonna give Scotty a run for his money in the metaphor department.

Nah, my job security is airtight. He can do the metaphors. I'll handle the shitty similes. (And the alliterations, aight?) i know that was assonance, you ass

Deal.

@Epi

Hi, there.

I think zebra should try it out for herself next time and see where that gets her. I just think it's pointless and hurts your team in a whole lot of ways.

[Long Con]

Now, maybe Zebra has been playing mafia in Opposite Land where lying as a townie to the point where several players consider a policy lynch on you is good strategy but lying as scum is simply not done. I'll reserve full judgement of if this is scummy behavior or just really jarring culture clash until later. It's only D0 after all.

I wouldn't call it culture clash. I'm part of their culture and I agree with your assessment.

Snow Dog, as I figured, was joking around. I don't subscribe to the idea that just saying something for reactions is a useful or a Civ thing to do. I don't find it to be a particularly defensible position, that kind of claim usually rings false to me.

[Marmot]

First of all..

I'm playing without reading my role.

In this game, I will defend Snow Dog to the death.

Second....Wow! My claim to have not read my role certainly has stirred up things around here. My little homage to Dr Wilgey's claim in Monley Island has sparked some lively debate. So what happens now? If I claim I was joking can you believe that? Am I forever tarnished?

If you're telling the truth, it says nothing about your alignment because you don't know it yet.

If you're lying and you have read your role, I don't think that says anything either.

Can I still vote for you Day 1?

[Epignosis]

Four pages all about Snow Dog and Long Con's bad directions.

Snow Dog must feel special.

I won't be voting him Day 1.

[insertnamehere]

I agree that what Snow Dog's doing is idiotic and not helping the civilian cause in any way, shape, or form.

Hey guess what? I read my role as soon as I received it.

Am I helping the civilian cause yet?

Yes Epi, and we're all very proud of you.

Here's a celebratory ribbon:

[Long Con]

Four pages all about Snow Dog and Long Con's bad directions.

Snow Dog must feel special.

I won't be voting him Day 1.

Pretty sure you can practically count the number of posts about my bad directions on one hand, so that's not really a true assessment of the game.

[Epignosis]

I want everybody's opinion on soup. This man hasn't posted. He probably hasn't even read his role PM! Scandalous!

[insertnamehere]

I want everybody's opinion on soup.

Would you categorize soup as a drink or a food?

I think soup with non-liquid stuff in it- like chicken noodle soup- is food.

Soup without that- like lobster bisque- is a drink that you drink with a spoon.

This is a strongly held opinion of mine.

[Epignosis]

Four pages all about Snow Dog and Long Con's bad directions.

Snow Dog must feel special.

I won't be voting him Day 1.

Pretty sure you can practically count the number of posts about my bad directions on one hand, so that's not really a true assessment of the game.

I can't point to anything that has been discussed besides those two things.

[Dom]

bell curves epi