Mass Effect Mafia (END)

[CaptainNifty]

I think Epi is trying. He even linked posts from a game he hosted. What makes you uncomfortable? Is it the "home site unity?" Is it the means that caused you to vote together?

It makes me uncomfortable that I'm on the vote with adam and gfish. I'm feeling better about adam, but I'm still not quite to him being civ. I'm not remotely convinced on gfish. He's making sense, but I don't like it that he's one of the most suspicious people and I'm sharing the lynch with him.

@Epi
All information is good information. Even with extra roles we can still catch people in bad claims.

In the realms we have historically relied too heavily on info-dumps. Over the course of the last year as we've had people who have played on other sites bring those play styles to the Realms, we've made a conscious effort to rely less on info-dumps. However, Syndicate's revulsion to info dumping and role-claiming is crazy to me. The problem in the Realms is that it's a tool we relied on too much, but to completely ignore a tool is debilitating for the town. Withholding info is almost always detrimental to the town. I know Jack has been spending too much time here because he helped teach me that, and got lynched in a game in HCR because he withheld info.

[Fredwood]

Spoiler: show

I have to leave for forty minutes. See if you can work out my role.

Time starts...now.

In that time I plan on running out for a haircut and will do no such thing. My vote stays.

I am not dismissing anything; but it IS a leap, especially since the protector role is not dead. It is also possible that someone missed a PM or one of the role switchers was at work. This is a super complex role list, and while what you say is super possible, it is certainly not conclusive.

Overall, I like this post, but I'm not sure I follow everything you are saying. What do you mean by missed a PM. I don't know how it works in the Syndicate, but in the Realms if the faction has to kill they can't get around it by not sending in a PM.

Here's something to chew on:

If I am bad and on a team, I'm usually not going to be the one carrying out the kill. Can you guess why?

But y'all go ahead with yay role blocks if you want to. Civilians are fucked if that's the operating procedure.

Worried? Not at all, but I will lose my shit if I'm lynched because someone role blocked me and the kill was missed.

That's elementary-level analysis. In a set-up that involves a dead protector, a living blocker, and a killer, and that's it, okay fine. You got me. Them's the breaks.

In this? Not straightforward at all. I don't fault fish for realizing he has a clue, but I do think it's lazy if he lynches me. I didn't try to kill anybody, so fish's block is irrelevant, and was sadly wasted.

For those who experienced it, does RotTK N1 mean anything?

Your first argument is ridiculously weak.

Someone has said you were blocked last night and there wasn't a kill. You could potentially end this by saying, "Well, you wasted your block I did nothing." or "Well, I tried to X." or "I'm character X."

You have 3 votes against you, maybe that's not enough to get you to talk and I can respect that. I've played 1 day real day phase with you guys, and I'm doing my best to try to adapt to the way you guys do things, while still bringing something from HCR. It may not be how you do things here, but there is value to this line of inquiry.

You guys act like I care about your little "pressure votes." It's cute. I have no intention to vote to save myself if it comes to that. If you want my lynch, you will have it, and you will have to deal with two poor lynches in a row.

You know what else is cute? That some think you can figure out who is bad by getting people to claim. That isn't going to work. Know how come?

There are eleven civilians. There are twenty-three civilian roles listed. There are six mafia and two independents.

Twenty-three minus eleven leaves twelve. That's twelve roles to spare, and I bet you they're not sitting there just for show. So if your game plan is to make people claim and then see who counterclaims, you're doing it wrong. There won't be any counterclaiming.

YUSSSSS. Though it's not about counter claiming. Realms haven't had any experience with open or semi-open set ups often, so I will step in and say that isn't the reason fish wants a claim.

Realms SOP is for pressure on a player to build and then the generally approved practice is to have the one being pressured claim, so then they can debate on the merits and likelyhood of a claim. This leads to a wifom arguments constantly because there those power roles that are considered to be strong claims and those power roles that tend to be weak claims, and doesn't relieve the pressure.

I really hate the random pressure trains (or weak pressure trains), I've railed about it constantly and find it to be the most infuriating thing to come up against as a town member (and as a result a part of the reason I really hate voting unless I'm sure of my target), because the outcomes really don't end up in a net useful scenario for town.

Strong Power role claim:
1. If the pressure target is scum, it's a win win, it buys them time, or outs the real power.
2. If the pressure target is town, then a road map has been drawn for scum, and if they have RT powers can find more helpful town roles to night kill. Or midsirection powers they make that power role essentially vanilla.


It only really works if it's a weak power claim and it's an immediate lynch and it turns out to be scum. Otherwise, the town will waste time debating the claim for the next 3 phases without getting things accomplished.

Then there are people who actually take a stand and refuse to submit to the pressure and sometimes the town will lynch them, but there is also fear for lynching them because they're viewed as an easy lynch.

I will say that Gfish's pressure isn't random and between other players suspicion of you and his tenuous evidence. I sitll don't think there needs to be a full claim. From my experience, even in a power heavy game in Phenom, that without massive claims (until end game) there wasn't a whole lot of difficulty for town to suss out scum after day 1 without random pressure voting or claiming.

I'm just really enjoying the whole "You have votes on you claim"

"No, Fuck you" nature of this reaction to pressure voting.

[Fredwood]

I think Epi is trying. He even linked posts from a game he hosted. What makes you uncomfortable? Is it the "home site unity?" Is it the means that caused you to vote together?

It makes me uncomfortable that I'm on the vote with adam and gfish. I'm feeling better about adam, but I'm still not quite to him being civ. I'm not remotely convinced on gfish. He's making sense, but I don't like it that he's one of the most suspicious people and I'm sharing the lynch with him.

@Epi
All information is good information. Even with extra roles we can still catch people in bad claims.

In the realms we have historically relied too heavily on info-dumps. Over the course of the last year as we've had people who have played on other sites bring those play styles to the Realms, we've made a conscious effort to rely less on info-dumps. However, Syndicate's revulsion to info dumping and role-claiming is crazy to me. The problem in the Realms is that it's a tool we relied on too much, but to completely ignore a tool is debilitating for the town. Withholding info is almost always detrimental to the town. I know Jack has been spending too much time here because he helped teach me that, and got lynched in a game in HCR because he withheld info.

How is it withholding info? If he info-dumps it doesn't clear anything up in the slightest. Now if there was solid evidence that required a claim and he still withheld, then yes, I would agree that withholding is counter-productive, but I don't see anything coming close to solid evidence point to his scumminess.

Additionally it behooves him not to claim, not claiming keeps him around. Mafia shouldn't be likely to kill him because he's a source of heat that can distract from them, and with the amount of non-realms players he's not likely to get lynched for refusing to claim.

[gfishfunk]

You guys act like I care about your little "pressure votes." It's cute. I have no intention to vote to save myself if it comes to that. If you want my lynch, you will have it, and you will have to deal with two poor lynches in a row.

You know what else is cute? That some think you can figure out who is bad by getting people to claim. That isn't going to work. Know how come?

There are eleven civilians. There are twenty-three civilian roles listed. There are six mafia and two independents.

Twenty-three minus eleven leaves twelve. That's twelve roles to spare, and I bet you they're not sitting there just for show. So if your game plan is to make people claim and then see who counterclaims, you're doing it wrong. There won't be any counterclaiming.

Spoken like scum without a fake claim.

If you hinted at it, and some people get it, why not just claim? Hint claims are terrible. Scum tends to get hint claims because they have more people between them. Even if two of four do not get it, the other two do. Whereas if a townie doesn't get it, the townie doesn't get it. By aggregate, town hint claims help the mafia rather than the town.

Furthermore, mafia hint claims allow flexibility. You can always just say you were hinting something else or that you didn't get your point across or whatever. The flexibility also helps scum.

[Epignosis]

You guys act like I care about your little "pressure votes." It's cute. I have no intention to vote to save myself if it comes to that. If you want my lynch, you will have it, and you will have to deal with two poor lynches in a row.

You know what else is cute? That some think you can figure out who is bad by getting people to claim. That isn't going to work. Know how come?

There are eleven civilians. There are twenty-three civilian roles listed. There are six mafia and two independents.

Twenty-three minus eleven leaves twelve. That's twelve roles to spare, and I bet you they're not sitting there just for show. So if your game plan is to make people claim and then see who counterclaims, you're doing it wrong. There won't be any counterclaiming.

Spoken like scum without a fake claim.

If you hinted at it, and some people get it, why not just claim? Hint claims are terrible. Scum tends to get hint claims because they have more people between them. Even if two of four do not get it, the other two do. Whereas if a townie doesn't get it, the townie doesn't get it. By aggregate, town hint claims help the mafia rather than the town.

Furthermore, mafia hint claims allow flexibility. You can always just say you were hinting something else or that you didn't get your point across or whatever. The flexibility also helps scum.

You don't know what tends to happen because you've never before participated here. This is a brand new dynamic.

[Long Con]

Epi, you got nervous.

[CaptainNifty]

You don't know what tends to happen because you've never before participated here. This is a brand new dynamic.

I could say the same to you.

Try to use less arrogance, bullshit, or whatever your trying to sling. Syndicate may think you are some kind of mafia genius, but half the players here don't know you or frankly care about your reputation.

Without you giving something up, or someone else providing more info, I see no reason to move my vote.

[gfishfunk]

You don't know what tends to happen because you've never before participated here. This is a brand new dynamic.

Are you forget we have TWO mods, one bringing the Realms style and one bringing the syndicate style?

If your argument is that I am too new to understand, I don't really care. If your argument is that you win tons and you mod all the time and you are the biggest dog in yard, I don't really care either.

Three questions:

1. What is your role from the list at the beginning?

2. What benefit does fake claiming bring the town?

3. What benefit does fake claiming bring you in particular?

4. How is my refusal to accommodate your playstyle worse than your refusal to accomidate my "playstyle"? (Don't worry, I remembered to include your quotes for you. I'm helpful.)

[gfishfunk]

You don't know what tends to happen because you've never before participated here. This is a brand new dynamic.

Are you forget we have TWO mods, one bringing the Realms style and one bringing the syndicate style?

If your argument is that I am too new to understand, I don't really care. If your argument is that you win tons and you mod all the time and you are the biggest dog in yard, I don't really care either.

Three questions:

1. What is your role from the list at the beginning?

2. What benefit does fake claiming bring the town?

3. What benefit does fake claiming bring you in particular?

4. How is my refusal to accommodate your playstyle worse than your refusal to accomidate my "playstyle"? (Don't worry, I remembered to include your quotes for you. I'm helpful.)

Questions 2 and 3 should be hint claiming. I guess I subconsciously switched those out on your behalf. New question list for you (tidied up):

Four questions:

1. What is your role from the list at the beginning of the thread?

2. What benefit does hint claiming bring the town?

3. What benefit does hint claiming bring you in particular?

4. How is my refusal to accommodate your playstyle worse than your refusal to accomidate my "playstyle"? (Don't worry, I remembered to include your quotes for you. I'm helpful.)

[Long Con]

So, Freud would say you think Epi is fake-claiming, is that correct?

[gfishfunk]

So, Freud would say you think Epi is fake-claiming, is that correct?

I assume you mean me as Fred is more suspicious of me than Epi.

I inherently find hint claiming suspicious. I don't think s/he is fake claiming. I don't think s/he is claiming at all and hiding behind righteous ambiguity.

[Fredwood]

So, Freud would say you think Epi is fake-claiming, is that correct?

How is it a fake claim if he doesn't know who he is claiming? Or that he is in fact claiming. I never thought it was a hint claim, my assumption of his role was based off a mechanics response to the roleblock.

[CaptainNifty]

So, Freud would say you think Epi is fake-claiming, is that correct?

I assume you mean me as Fred is more suspicious of me than Epi.

I inherently find hint claiming suspicious. I don't think s/he is fake claiming. I don't think s/he is claiming at all and hiding behind righteous ambiguity.

He said Freud not Fred.

[Fredwood]

So, Freud would say you think Epi is fake-claiming, is that correct?

I assume you mean me as Fred is more suspicious of me than Epi.

I inherently find hint claiming suspicious. I don't think s/he is fake claiming. I don't think s/he is claiming at all and hiding behind righteous ambiguity.

lol no, I think he's calling your first post a Freudian slip. Though I'm not sure if I'm honored or offended that I'm mistaken for Freud.

[Fredwood]

I also didn't say I was more suspicious of you then Epi, I said you both were pinging slightly green because of the interaction.

[Long Con]

So, Freud would say you think Epi is fake-claiming, is that correct?

I assume you mean me as Fred is more suspicious of me than Epi.

I inherently find hint claiming suspicious. I don't think s/he is fake claiming. I don't think s/he is claiming at all and hiding behind righteous ambiguity.

This is getting too interesting.

[Long Con]

I also didn't say I was more suspicious of you then Epi, I said you both were pinging slightly green because of the interaction.

I think they're teammates.

[gfishfunk]

This is getting too interesting.

How so?

And yes, I'm pretty dense at times.

[Fredwood]

I also didn't say I was more suspicious of you then Epi, I said you both were pinging slightly green because of the interaction.

I think they're teammates.

Seriously? You think this is a mutual bussing? I love bussing as much as the next guy so kudos if they are.

[CaptainNifty]

I also didn't say I was more suspicious of you then Epi, I said you both were pinging slightly green because of the interaction.

I think they're teammates.

If gfish ends up moving his vote off of epi this is possible, but it's not really gfish's normal style.

I actually think they're both scum just different factions.

[Long Con]

This is getting too interesting.

How so?

And yes, I'm pretty dense at times.

Epi getting nervous and roleclaiming is not something I'd expect him to do as a Civ on his lonesome. I think his roleclaim was uncharacteristic and influenced by Realms members of his team. And then you Freudian Slip "fakeclaim" in there, and then deny that you know anything about a claim at all. It looks really awkward and I believe that's because the Freudian Slip was kind of a Mafia slip.

[gfishfunk]

This is getting too interesting.

How so?

And yes, I'm pretty dense at times.

Epi getting nervous and roleclaiming is not something I'd expect him to do as a Civ on his lonesome. I think his roleclaim was uncharacteristic and influenced by Realms members of his team. And then you Freudian Slip "fakeclaim" in there, and then deny that you know anything about a claim at all. It looks really awkward and I believe that's because the Freudian Slip was kind of a Mafia slip.

Ah. No.

At this point, I my main theory (which works whether or not a kill was blocked):

1. Scum factions are still relatively worried about selecting the wrong claim off the alliance list. They don't know which are in-game and which aren't. I broken-clocked Epi, but Epi cannot really claim so s/he hints. The hint claim is flexible in case someone shows up what s/he was originally gunning for.

OR

2. I'm just tunneling like a moron. What I lack in observation, nuance, and tact I make up for in tenacity.

[Adam]

While we have votes. One of the 3 Epi voters are bad.

3 from the same site. Momentum is in thier favor. These things don't line up like this if they were civ.

Adam, Nifty, and Gfish, what do you think of this?

This is SOP. We call it pressure voting. If this were a game on HCR you would expect to see a number of pressure votes placed following a lead like gfish's block on a night where a kill was missing. Of course there we have majority lynches instead of plurality, so I'd expect the train to get to around 4-5 votes while waiting for a response from the person pressured. A satisfactory response will get votes removed; an unsatisfactory response will see more votes applied.

If anything, you see mafia teammates trying to jump onto a pressure train early in case their teammate ends up getting lynched, so that they look better when the autopsy comes up and have a good voting record.

[Adam]

I am not dismissing anything; but it IS a leap, especially since the protector role is not dead. It is also possible that someone missed a PM or one of the role switchers was at work. This is a super complex role list, and while what you say is super possible, it is certainly not conclusive.

Overall, I like this post, but I'm not sure I follow everything you are saying. What do you mean by missed a PM. I don't know how it works in the Syndicate, but in the Realms if the faction has to kill they can't get around it by not sending in a PM.

What happens if nothing is sent in? Randomized kill? Delayed Day?

Both have happened. In the majority of our setups, a kill attempt is mandatory from the mafia (or both mafias, as the case may sometimes be).

[Long Con]

This is getting too interesting.

How so?

And yes, I'm pretty dense at times.

Epi getting nervous and roleclaiming is not something I'd expect him to do as a Civ on his lonesome. I think his roleclaim was uncharacteristic and influenced by Realms members of his team. And then you Freudian Slip "fakeclaim" in there, and then deny that you know anything about a claim at all. It looks really awkward and I believe that's because the Freudian Slip was kind of a Mafia slip.

Ah. No.

At this point, I my main theory (which works whether or not a kill was blocked):

1. Scum factions are still relatively worried about selecting the wrong claim off the alliance list. They don't know which are in-game and which aren't. I broken-clocked Epi, but Epi cannot really claim so s/he hints. The hint claim is flexible in case someone shows up what s/he was originally gunning for.

OR

2. I'm just tunneling like a moron. What I lack in observation, nuance, and tact I make up for in tenacity.

I didn't find his hint claim to be flexible.

James Vega
You are an experienced Marine of the Systems Alliance, strong of will and heart but also naive the political underpinnings of galactic relations.

You have access to a number of one-shot abilities which may be used during any separate night phases:

Carnage - Selected player will begin the following day phase with one extra vote
Frag grenade - Selected player and all players targeting or being targeted by that player the same night will each have a 50% chance of being role blocked.
Tuck and roll - You will be immune to all non-lethal night actions this night.

[Epignosis]

You don't know what tends to happen because you've never before participated here. This is a brand new dynamic.

Are you forget we have TWO mods, one bringing the Realms style and one bringing the syndicate style?

If your argument is that I am too new to understand, I don't really care. If your argument is that you win tons and you mod all the time and you are the biggest dog in yard, I don't really care either.

Three questions:

1. What is your role from the list at the beginning?

2. What benefit does fake claiming bring the town?

3. What benefit does fake claiming bring you in particular?

4. How is my refusal to accommodate your playstyle worse than your refusal to accomidate my "playstyle"? (Don't worry, I remembered to include your quotes for you. I'm helpful.)

Questions 2 and 3 should be hint claiming. I guess I subconsciously switched those out on your behalf. New question list for you (tidied up):

Four questions:

1. What is your role from the list at the beginning of the thread?

2. What benefit does hint claiming bring the town?

3. What benefit does hint claiming bring you in particular?

4. How is my refusal to accommodate your playstyle worse than your refusal to accomidate my "playstyle"? (Don't worry, I remembered to include your quotes for you. I'm helpful.)

I didn't say anything about you being new. I said you don't have any data to claim what tends to happen. That's true of everyone.

1. No.

2. None, apparently, because you and your gang want to lynch me anyway. That's fine.

3. It amuses me. If you find it inherently suspicious, oh well. I don't think claiming at all is useful in this setup except to help the killers make more strategic kills.

4. I don't have a "playstyle." I do as I please.

This is getting too interesting.

How so?

And yes, I'm pretty dense at times.

Epi getting nervous and roleclaiming is not something I'd expect him to do as a Civ on his lonesome. I think his roleclaim was uncharacteristic and influenced by Realms members of his team. And then you Freudian Slip "fakeclaim" in there, and then deny that you know anything about a claim at all. It looks really awkward and I believe that's because the Freudian Slip was kind of a Mafia slip.

I never claimed anything.

And I'm not nervous, so I don't know why you keep bringing that up. The only time I get nervous in Mafia is near endgame, and this ain't endgame. I don't care if I get lynched because I like it when people think they have me figured out when in reality they don't know jack.

[Fredwood]

See, I knew that's who I was thinking as well. The most self-targeting self-targeter in the game.

I just didn't want to blow up a spot, there's still a couple who I guess could technically self-target, but not sure they would be allowed to within the rules.

[DrWilgy]

Unless someone kidnapped Epi and started playing in his place, Gfish and he are not teammates.

LC, even if Epi is playing off. When has he ever gone bus route by default?

Nifty, Joh, how often does Gfish default to a bus and is it ever his first option?

Something I'd like the realms players to think about. Is the lack of role claiming when asked removing usable information?

It feels that there is a reliance upon roles happening. That info isn't usable.

With the spread of roles that we have, role claiming in mass is not beneficial in this current gamestate. Perhaps closer towards end game, but I don't think so now.

While we have votes. One of the 3 Epi voters are bad.

3 from the same site. Momentum is in thier favor. These things don't line up like this if they were civ.

Adam, Nifty, and Gfish, what do you think of this?

This is SOP. We call it pressure voting. If this were a game on HCR you would expect to see a number of pressure votes placed following a lead like gfish's block on a night where a kill was missing. Of course there we have majority lynches instead of plurality, so I'd expect the train to get to around 4-5 votes while waiting for a response from the person pressured. A satisfactory response will get votes removed; an unsatisfactory response will see more votes applied.

If anything, you see mafia teammates trying to jump onto a pressure train early in case their teammate ends up getting lynched, so that they look better when the autopsy comes up and have a good voting record.

How does that work in this environment? I understand pressure voring, but half the players aren't doing this, so where does that place baddies?

Gfish, you haven't acknowledged me in awhile. Why?

[Adam]

So, Freud would say you think Epi is fake-claiming, is that correct?

I assume you mean me as Fred is more suspicious of me than Epi.

I inherently find hint claiming suspicious. I don't think s/he is fake claiming. I don't think s/he is claiming at all and hiding behind righteous ambiguity.

I think he literally meant Sigmund Freud. Slip of the tongue/keyboard and all that.

[gfishfunk]

Both have happened. In the majority of our setups, a kill attempt is mandatory from the mafia (or both mafias, as the case may sometimes be).

Mafia members tend to be included in the random roll, which increases pressure to get folks submitting actions.

I didn't find his hint claim to be flexible.

James Vega
You are an experienced Marine of the Systems Alliance, strong of will and heart but also naive the political underpinnings of galactic relations.

You have access to a number of one-shot abilities which may be used during any separate night phases:

Carnage - Selected player will begin the following day phase with one extra vote
Frag grenade - Selected player and all players targeting or being targeted by that player the same night will each have a 50% chance of being role blocked.
Tuck and roll - You will be immune to all non-lethal night actions this night.

Well gold star for you in figuring that out. as you may have guessed, I didn't.

Also possible explanation: Kai Leng's one shot commute (does the same thing), but its otherwise a fairly solid claim. Either way, I'll remove my vote.

[Epignosis]

LC, even if Epi is playing off. When has he ever gone bus route by default?

Two things.

First, I'm surprised LC suggested that. In my opinion, throwing a teammate under the bus in a two-mafia setup has a negative expected value. I don't practice that.

Second, people somehow think I'm some eager, crafty bus guy, when in reality, in all the Mafia games I have played as evil, I have intentionally thrown a teammate under the bus one time, and it was only out of the novelty of having never done it before. In Turf Wars I had to keep reminding my team that their job was to get civilians lynched, not each other.

[Adam]

How does that work in this environment?

I'm not entirely sure yet. That's really the fun of a crossover game, isn't it?

[gfishfunk]

How does that work in this environment? I understand pressure voring, but half the players aren't doing this, so where does that place baddies?

Gfish, you haven't acknowledged me in awhile. Why?

I responded to you earlier this phase: I tend to view you as town, slight read. You haven't added anything other than statements of distrust about me, which I already knew. For sake of argument, here is my response: no, I'm town.

Speaking of chatting: DrWiggly, do scum in this game have safe claims?

[Adam]

I am removing my vote from Epi and placing it on Raven

I want to see some more posts from IR.

[DrWilgy]

How does that work in this environment?

I'm not entirely sure yet. That's really the fun of a crossover game, isn't it?

So, now instead of explaining the wagon with the most votes as a pressure, how about you tell me what you think of Gfish and Nifty? How do you feel about them being the only 2 voting with you?

How does that work in this environment? I understand pressure voring, but half the players aren't doing this, so where does that place baddies?

Gfish, you haven't acknowledged me in awhile. Why?

I responded to you earlier this phase: I tend to view you as town, slight read. You haven't added anything other than statements of distrust about me, which I already knew. For sake of argument, here is my response: no, I'm town.

Speaking of chatting: DrWiggly, do scum in this game have safe claims?

based on there bing more roles than players, I wouldn't think so.

I had thought about mass claiming as a strategy, but here are the faults. Lynch priority will go to those late to claim. The more people claim the safer it becomes for baddies to fake claim. A counter claim will result in a 1 for 1 trade in most scenarios, but with the existence of 2 teams gunning each other down, 1 team may take the advantage on both civs and alter baddie team based on what would be mostly luck and partial skillful observation.

Note that these thoughts have little knowledge of what the roles do.

[Dom]

Dom doesn't suspect me? Something's wrong.

Gfish's claim of blocking Epi is intriguing. Still not sure whether to think Epi would be acting this recklessly zany if bad, but I suppose I wouldn't entirely put it past him.

[CaptainNifty]

Unless someone kidnapped Epi and started playing in his place, Gfish and he are not teammates.

LC, even if Epi is playing off. When has he ever gone bus route by default?

Nifty, Joh, how often does Gfish default to a bus and is it ever his first option?

Something I'd like the realms players to think about. Is the lack of role claiming when asked removing usable information?

It feels that there is a reliance upon roles happening. That info isn't usable.

With the spread of roles that we have, role claiming in mass is not beneficial in this current gamestate. Perhaps closer towards end game, but I don't think so now.

While we have votes. One of the 3 Epi voters are bad.

3 from the same site. Momentum is in thier favor. These things don't line up like this if they were civ.

Adam, Nifty, and Gfish, what do you think of this?

This is SOP. We call it pressure voting. If this were a game on HCR you would expect to see a number of pressure votes placed following a lead like gfish's block on a night where a kill was missing. Of course there we have majority lynches instead of plurality, so I'd expect the train to get to around 4-5 votes while waiting for a response from the person pressured. A satisfactory response will get votes removed; an unsatisfactory response will see more votes applied.

If anything, you see mafia teammates trying to jump onto a pressure train early in case their teammate ends up getting lynched, so that they look better when the autopsy comes up and have a good voting record.

How does that work in this environment? I understand pressure voring, but half the players aren't doing this, so where does that place baddies?

Gfish, you haven't acknowledged me in awhile. Why?

So, I don't know if it's his first move, but he's certainly not above busing. No particular time stands out, but having recently played scum with him, he's really good at when he needs to be.

In a plurality situation, pressure votes are actually more pressure. Right now Epi is going to be lynched. If this were majority instead of plurality, he's safe, he has nothing to worry about with only three votes. As a matter of fact I likely wouldn't have pressure voted in this game if it were a majority since half the players here don't play that way, but with plurality its even more effective because I don't need half the votes to lynch someone.

And claiming does give information. No one from the realms would advocate mass claiming. However, if someone has info - gfish in this case - that points to someone else - Epignosis in this case - then its discussed. I voted Epi because I was suspicious of him yesterday. The conversation last night between him and LC thoroughly put him in orange for me. So my gut + his posting + gfish's block = a vote from me.

I've gotten some information from him I'm going to remove vote from him and we'll see if anyone else has some info.

[DrWilgy]

I am removing my vote from Epi and placing it on Raven

I want to see some more posts from IR.

How active is Raven normally?

Nifty, Gfish, how do you feel about Adam's swap?

Linki - Neat. Now let's just band together and lymch Gfish.

[Dom]

POLL: Do you think Jack was really making a fucking rainbow list, using color codes that are all in HEX (right-- that's HEX right?) in quick reply?
That sounds like some serious bullshit to me.

OK I myself suspect Jack, and his apparent refusal to talk to someone who is accusing him does not sit well, but why does this have bearing?

I am sure it does, or you would not have brought it up. What am I missing about his use of code specifically that makes him bad? I know Bea used to do colors with code on her Crackberry years ago since shortcuts didn't work.

there's zero percent chance he was doing the codes manually.

Would you really use manual hex codes to make a rainbow list?

Oh. That's what this is about?

The rainbow I actually posted isn't colored.

Nor are my Realms ones (though I usually point out yellows start here, oranges start here, etc) because yellow text doesn't show up well on the Realms forum background.

So no, I didn't use manual hex codes to create a colored rainbow list in quick reply. I made a list of players in order of trust to suspect and put in comments. Didn't quite finish. Didn't select all + copy. Page reloaded and I lost it.

Great. I got a response.

Why do you think nutella is suspicious? Why do you excuse MP? Why are you inconsistent?

I think it's safe to assume we will lynch a baddie if we choose either Gfish today, or Hazelnut Spread friend.

Discuss.

why

I think they are bad, what do you think?

i disagree on nutella

Y tho?

no u
is a better question

REAPERS (3 roles)
They share behind the scenes communication. Win the game by eliminating the Alliance, Cerberus, and any hostile independents.
They kill on Nights 1, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12 (and so on with even-numbered nights)

CERBERUS (3 roles)
They share behind the scenes communication. Win the game by eliminating the Alliance, the Reapers, and any hostile independents.
They kill on Nights 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 11, 13 (and so on with odd-numbered nights)

Two kills on night 1.

The roles also indicate there could have also been at least six blocks, a few protects...

Plus missed votes...
y so myopic?

My primary concern with Hazelnut is her lack of content and her civ read of me.

Past games quick glance
Phenon > Nut is Civ > Reads me bad
Currents > Nut is civ > Unsure of me
Here > Nut is unknown > Town reads me

This is also with her knowing that I still want my revenge from phenon. (I didn't get it in currents, and even made it known that I missed my chance). Makes me think she doesn't want to fight me.

Her uncertainty d1 however, is something I'm used to with her.

I'd like to know why Gfish would hard claim role blocker with no doctor.

small sample size is small.

Jack and rainbow list controversy:

Why would he even lie about that?

He's been all about rainbow lists since I started playing mafia again ~6 months ago, and it doesn't particularly surprise me he'd do one in mobile and in quick reply.

Also, I'm not a big fan of using actual font colors, because the yellow unavoidably is impossible to read without highlighting the text.

yellow show sup perfect for me on black background.
also it's pretty standard here to do colors in your rainbos hewre

which is hwy i don't do them.

Here's something to chew on:

If I am bad and on a team, I'm usually not going to be the one carrying out the kill. Can you guess why?

But y'all go ahead with yay role blocks if you want to. Civilians are fucked if that's the operating procedure.

lol

Romance of the Three Kingdoms Day 1:

Half of the field missed the vote. Nineteen people.

Romance of the Three Kingdoms Night 1:

Day 2: The Farmers of Hsiaop’ei are Troubled

雞和山羊

The death of Ahuinan, Meng Huo’s third ravine chief of Nanzhong, resulted in a series of misfortune for the farmers of Hsiaop’ei, because it was reported that Ahuinan was cut down in the vicinity of Hsiaop’ei. The misfortune happened all in one night. A band of distraught farmers sought the advice of one of the elders in that region, a learned man who had fathered seven sons and outlived all of them.

The first farmer approached holding a dead rooster. “Armed men came and slaughtered our chickens. They left behind feathers that do not belong to any of our animals.”

A second man came forward and produced the head of a goat. “Armed men came and slaughtered our goats. They left behind yellow cloth, which we do not wear.”

“This is a good omen,” observed the sage.

“How can you say this a good omen?” asked one of the men of Hsiaop’ei.

“Consider that both the barbarians of the south and the mystical rebels have visited your people in the span of the same night, and all of them are accounted for.”

No one has been killed. It is now Day 2. You have 48 hours and two votes each to decide who will be in the second duel.

What happened there?

[Dom]

Were you that confident in your read of Epi? That was the important one.

Confident enough to use it. I wanted to interact with someone outside the realms. His posts right around end phase struck me as someone happy with the lynch and happy to not have his name attached. You can disagree with the read or with my ability to analyze, but its what I did.

looking @ poll-- apparently not

[gfishfunk]

I am removing my vote from Epi and placing it on Raven

I want to see some more posts from IR.

How active is Raven normally?

Nifty, Gfish, how do you feel about Adam's swap?.

Adam's swap: I'm totally neutral with it. Pressure votes on an absent player sometimes help, mostly if that player is lurking rather than posting. If that were all that I_R posted today, I would likely vig him. Adam's vote is sort of SOP as well from a realms perspective.

Linki - Neat. Now let's just band together and lymch Gfish

My my DrWilgy, are you tunneling me? That's sorta my think with Epi and I wouldn't want Epi jealous.

[Fredwood]

I am removing my vote from Epi and placing it on Raven

I want to see some more posts from IR.

How active is Raven normally?

Nifty, Gfish, how do you feel about Adam's swap?

Linki - Neat. Now let's just band together and lymch Gfish.

Last I checked Raven was recovering from some serioius surgery and even said that he was retiscent to sign up. So I wouldn't put too much stock in what Raven typically does as defense or damning evidence.

[gfishfunk]

Were you that confident in your read of Epi? That was the important one.

Confident enough to use it. I wanted to interact with someone outside the realms. His posts right around end phase struck me as someone happy with the lynch and happy to not have his name attached. You can disagree with the read or with my ability to analyze, but its what I did.

looking @ poll-- apparently not

I attacked with a block, threw down information in the forum, and went in with a vote. When I got a reasonable claim, I backed off.

I changed my mind when the facts change. What do you do?

[Epignosis]

Of my three voters, I regard fishfunk to be the most sincere and civilian. I'm giving him shit and he's giving it right back. I respect that. I think he's doing what he thinks is right (even if I don't agree with his methodology), but I value the effort and it looks genuine to me. I regarded him a civilian Day 1, and that hasn't changed here in Day 2.

Adam has a sense of equanimity about him that I ordinarily associate with mafia, but outside of that, I am not suspicious of him at this time.

CaptainNifty strikes me as the most disingenuous of my three voters. He hopped on board and went out of his way to remind me people were putting pressure on me (like I'm new at this or something and don't get what's going on), but he stated it in the form of a threat. "Maybe you need more votes to get you talking." That's a subtle invitation for people to park there votes on me and potentially leave them there (I've seen it happen many times). He called something I said "ridiculously weak," but what I said wasn't an argument. It was a fact, one LC basically confirmed, not an argument. Rather than investigate to see if what I said about myself was true, Nifty dismissed it.

Addendum: I see people are moving their votes, but I'm commenting anyway.

[Dom]

@LC

I agree with Nifty's meta analysis of the Bob kill. The last Hybridity aside, Realms players tend to kill threats. "Bob is smart and may catch us. Kill Bob. Link will get himself lynched eventually. Ignore Link at night." We may have discussed this during Phenom?

GFish's "I blocked Epi" play is a GFishian play. As town, he goes for this lead to potentially get scum. As scum, he goes for this to potentially catch opposing scum/mislynch and to look like town GFish. It's a null look, imo. But it's definitely not a bad look and I'd disagree with anyone who says this is a reach and therefore GFish is bad. Without looking at the player list, I lean towards GFish being a blocker. That is, he only does this as town if he really has a block and is significantly more likely to do this as scum if he (or a teammate) really blocked Epi.

I agree with your analysis on Fred. Fred is only scum if someone counterclaims Joker (unlikely) or if Bob's role was forged (also unlikely?).

Again I still disagree on the NK assesment of a N1 Bobkill. I don't see the kill strong players n1 meta as much anymore, because the meta shifted to protecting or info gathering on strong players n1. Now with the limited power structure of this game, maybe I can see killing the strongest player. But with as much Syndicate as Realms players and how the game is also geared towards their style of play I don't know if people would consider the Bob the biggest threat to them in this game anyway because of the strength of the Syndicate players, maybe they view Bob as the strongest Realms player and then NK him, but that feels like a shitty reason to kill Bob N1 in a crossover. Like I said, I still feel Bob was the most neutral or random kill they could come up with.

I also believe this is likely:

"Who should we kill?"
"People think Bob is Civ, so he won't be getting lynched."
"Good call, let's kill him."

Maybe both teams targeted Bob as well.

!!!
like this is so boring to even discuss

[Dom]

gfish when did you change your vote?


jack-- wh ywon't you play ball with me?

[CaptainNifty]

I am removing my vote from Epi and placing it on Raven

I want to see some more posts from IR.

How active is Raven normally?

Nifty, Gfish, how do you feel about Adam's swap?

Linki - Neat. Now let's just band together and lymch Gfish.

Adam swapping is SOP. I'm not a particular fan of the move to I_R.

Raven is usually more active, but as Fred said he's recovering from surgery. More importantly what little Raven has said feels civ to me.

[gfishfunk]

gfish when did you change your vote?


jack-- wh ywon't you play ball with me?

Some time after Lon Con posted a claim on Epi's behalf, but not right away. I said I was going to, then forgot and got caught up in other stuff. I moved it to jackofhearts. MOstly for lack of somewhere else to put it, but I really should have gone after Jack instead last night anyways instead of Epi.

@Adam/Nifty, Etc. -- Raven is active enough now to post on a forum from his computer. He managed to go an hour and a half in a D&D session online with me before needing a break. He might however be working slowly at work due to recovery, or might not have access to this site at work.

I am seeing a lot of our aggression this phase as a result of different styles. I am going to make a conscious effort to try and approach things from a syndicate perspective.....

.....so how does one do that?

[Epignosis]

gfish when did you change your vote?


jack-- wh ywon't you play ball with me?

Some time after Lon Con posted a claim on Epi's behalf, but not right away. I said I was going to, then forgot and got caught up in other stuff. I moved it to jackofhearts. MOstly for lack of somewhere else to put it, but I really should have gone after Jack instead last night anyways instead of Epi.

@Adam/Nifty, Etc. -- Raven is active enough now to post on a forum from his computer. He managed to go an hour and a half in a D&D session online with me before needing a break. He might however be working slowly at work due to recovery, or might not have access to this site at work.

I am seeing a lot of our aggression this phase as a result of different styles. I am going to make a conscious effort to try and approach things from a syndicate perspective.....

.....so how does one do that?

Lynch llama Day 1.

So far so good.

[gfishfunk]

Let me restate: If have done several things to push for information. Good way to go or bad way to go, I did it.

Instead of accusing me for doing it wrong or doing it in an unhelpful way (but without dismissing the possibility, for sake of argument), what would the syndicate do instead to gather information?