Street Fighter II Mafia [ENDGAME]

[Tangrowth]

linki: This isn't really an argument I'd shoot down with "but wifom, though." Scum isn't going to base their entire nightkill on some weird backward motive play based on the day's previous posts.

what if that's what they want you to think
welcome to wifom hell.

Noob question: What is wifom?

WIFOM stands for Wine in Front of Me -- it's a reference to a scene in the movie The Princess Bride spoilered below:

Spoiler: show

Mafiascum's wiki defines it as "the circular reasoning that results from trying to determine the choices of an opponent who acted with full knowledge that their behavior would be subject to scrutiny."

Essentially, an example of WIFOM could be as follows:

- Elohcin was the player who killed JackofHearts because she is the sole player who was the subject of his suspicion.
- However, the mafia could want us to think that Elohcin was the player who killed JackofHearts, which means Elohcin is clearly not the killer!
- However... and repeat.

[malakim2099]

[mention]MovingPictures07[/mention]

Specifically this response, which I didn't include in that text. Apologies for not being clear.

Nah.

This is a pretty good reason to think you're bullshitting.

Where you provided a pretty good rationale in your response, they responded with this. It bothers me.

Dom is bad, folks. Let's lynch him please. He's flinging bullshit opinions he can't even back up.

lol

You can't summarize your thoughts onto LC into a single sentence. It's because it's a hodgepodge of bullshit that you're going around your ass to get to your elbow to create.

But sure. The person that you, earlier tonight, said was making good points is now bullshitting because they're challenging you.

Again, just basically the "I know you are but what am I" defense. Not liking this a bit. Maybe Dom is just a conflicting style with you, but as an outsider looking in, it just feels off to me.

[Tangrowth]

malakim, thanks! Tentatively, I'd assert that explanation jives with your read.

[Tangrowth]

I'm losing steam, ugh. Must. Continue. ISOs.

[Simon]

I can't keep up with you Moving Pictures.

Hey bud! Well, that's OK. What thoughts/reads do you have of your own?

I'm going to vote for you because you talk too much and make it so I can't keep up.

[Tangrowth]

[mention]Elohcin[/mention]

Just looking through your ISO now and wanted to inquire about an early post of yours:

Hi Blooper!
I'll get the hang of nicknames soon enough

Good luck town! It's 12.40am in Sweden and Monday morning emplloyment awaits.

Ooo, Sweden. I'm fascinated by other places because I've never been off the east coast of the United States.

I think Simon is civ. I agree with MP that his contributions seem solid. I will also say that Simon is right in that we were talking about street fighter costumes for Halloween. We like to dress up as a family sometimes and I was asking who Abigail (my daughter) and I could be. I was unsure of how many girls were in the game. And I brought up how the characters wear almost nothing and we couldn't dress like skanks (well ever!) but specifically at the end of October. Anyway. That's all I'll say about that.

I don't think LC is bad at this time. I'll tell you if I change my mind on that.

I don't think MP is bad atm either. He likes to get his boxers in a bunch Day 1, I've learned thia of him. So I don't pay him any mind.

I don't know who is bad yet, but if I had to guess it would be niju. She is awful chatty for her meta. Maybe she is just happy with that new ring on her finger. But she is definitely acting outside her usual self.

Also, sorry for not being present today. I was out all day with lots to do.

Can you explain how you reached your read of LC as expressed in this post? Thanks.

[Tangrowth]

I can't keep up with you Moving Pictures.

Hey bud! Well, that's OK. What thoughts/reads do you have of your own?

I'm going to vote for you because you talk too much and make it so I can't keep up.

Earlier you said something to the effect of me being good because I was leading. What changed?

[Tangrowth]

Well, I can't say I really know what to do with that.

[Tangrowth]

I'm moving my vote to Elohcin.

Supatown, eh? Please enlighten me.

I don't like to do a whole lot of publicized baddie hunting at night. Call it paranoia.

I am baddie hunting btw, MP. I will share all my findings during the day.

I don't see any findings and we're T minus an hour and a half until EoD. You've literally shared zero reads since you made that post. So, [mention]Elohcin[/mention], what's up? Who's bad?

[Tangrowth]

Elohcin has over 30 posts and hardly any reads. I did like her initial spewing of LC, me, and Simon in that post quoted above, but since then it's been literally nothing, other than some NKA that only echoed what speedchuck had to say. Consider me thoroughly underwhelmed and somewhat suspicious.

[Tangrowth]

I'd call Elohcin a moderate mafia read after digging through that ISO. I'm not going to compile a post like the previous two because she literally has only one post with reads in it, which I mentioned above. This is concerning. If you really are an overwhelmed townie, Elohcin, I need you to get your head into the game now in any way you can.

[malakim2099]

linki: This isn't really an argument I'd shoot down with "but wifom, though." Scum isn't going to base their entire nightkill on some weird backward motive play based on the day's previous posts.

what if that's what they want you to think
welcome to wifom hell.

Noob question: What is wifom?

WIFOM stands for Wine in Front of Me -- it's a reference to a scene in the movie The Princess Bride spoilered below:

Spoiler: show

Mafiascum's wiki defines it as "the circular reasoning that results from trying to determine the choices of an opponent who acted with full knowledge that their behavior would be subject to scrutiny."

Essentially, an example of WIFOM could be as follows:

- Elohcin was the player who killed JackofHearts because she is the sole player who was the subject of his suspicion.
- However, the mafia could want us to think that Elohcin was the player who killed JackofHearts, which means Elohcin is clearly not the killer!
- However... and repeat.

HA! Love it! Just bought that movie on digital streaming too.

Anyway, rethinking Elo's comments about the "frame job" and now I'm suddenly thinking she's a bit hinky again. It just seems like you're protesting too much/being defensive. I mean, I thought she was pretty helpful with explaining a few things about the local meta. However, there's also the "Boo mafia!" post right after the night ended, and the posting about how she was getting framed (which seems a bit defensive).

Really, if I were a scummer looking to do a framejob (puts on the evil hat for a second for that POV), I'd probably try to frame you MP by killing Dom. Or vice versa.

Elo, I feel that in an OT sense she's being very helpful and I think that's messing with my read of her. But now that MP posted the other observations, particularly her lack of reads... I'm inclined to Vote Elohcin as well. It feels like she's coasting a bit. Maybe I'm crazy.

[Tangrowth]

I need to go for a little bit; be back in a few though. Hopefully other players actually show. This is an incredibly disappointing display overall today, although it's clear a handful or so of other players gave a good effort.

[malakim2099]

Anyway, rethinking Elo's comments about the "frame job" and now I'm suddenly thinking she's a bit hinky again. It just seems like you're protesting too much/being defensive. I mean, I thought she was pretty helpful with explaining a few things about the local meta. However, there's also the "Boo mafia!" post right after the night ended, and the posting about how she was getting framed (which seems a bit defensive).

Really, if I were a scummer looking to do a framejob (puts on the evil hat for a second for that POV), I'd probably try to frame you MP by killing Dom. Or vice versa.

Elo, I feel that in an OT sense she's being very helpful and I think that's messing with my read of her. But now that MP posted the other observations, particularly her lack of reads... I'm inclined to Vote Elohcin as well. It feels like she's coasting a bit. Maybe I'm crazy.

And by 'you're protesting too much' I mean Elo's protesting too much.

Did I mention I had some nice Moscow Mules with dinner?

[Elohcin]

First of all, I don't think LC is bad because of his tone and demeaner. I think I've finally played enough with him to understand him. I don't think he would have let himself gwt into a back and forth if he were bad.

Second... I was doing some ISO crap during the night.
I didn't have anything major on anyone, but I did come to the conclusion that JoH was civ. But, sucks for me as it was already proven by the NK.

[Tangrowth]

First of all, I don't think LC is bad because of his tone and demeaner. I think I've finally played enough with him to understand him. I don't think he would have let himself gwt into a back and forth if he were bad.

Second... I was doing some ISO crap during the night.
I didn't have anything major on anyone, but I did come to the conclusion that JoH was civ. But, sucks for me as it was already proven by the NK.

Literally throw every possible thought and read you have right now about any currently living players. Your life depends on it.

[Elohcin]

I'm civ. I'm here to help as much as possible and want the civs to win. But once thrown into a hoke, I find it difficult to claw my way out. This early in the game and I feel like I ought not qorry about it and just give up. However, even though several of y'all think I'm bad, I'm not going to let that stop me. I have an hour left and I'm going to read and vote.for I think who ia bad rather than just sit around and wait to try to save myself if needed. If I go, I go. At least I'll leave you with aome thoughts when you see I was civ.

[DFaraday]

I had made a post earlier about my Ninja vote; basically, that she hasn't committed to anything specific. After reading more though, I'm switching to Dom because of his refusal to elaborate and as MP said, his attempts to appear consistent.

[DFaraday]

I guess my earlier post got lost.

[Tangrowth]

I'm civ. I'm here to help as much as possible and want the civs to win. But once thrown into a hoke, I find it difficult to claw my way out. This early in the game and I feel like I ought not qorry about it and just give up. However, even though several of y'all think I'm bad, I'm not going to let that stop me. I have an hour left and I'm going to read and vote.for I think who ia bad rather than just sit around and wait to try to save myself if needed. If I go, I go. At least I'll leave you with aome thoughts when you see I was civ.

I'm listening and persuadable.

[Elohcin]

I still think niju could be bad fornsame reasons as before. And qhen I calles her on it, her whole mood changed for her moat recent posts.....

[Tangrowth]

I had made a post earlier about my Ninja vote; basically, that she hasn't committed to anything specific. After reading more though, I'm switching to Dom because of his refusal to elaborate and as MP said, his attempts to appear consistent.

Oh, I must have missed it, let me take a look back. I guess no silenced player then? Weird.

Linki: Nevermind.

I appreciate the support on Dom, but is there any way you can elaborate a bit more -- maybe point a particular post or point that is agreeable? More importantly, do you have any other reads at this time, particularly about the counterwagons?

[Elohcin]

I'm suspicious of Dom. It's like he came in here out of nowhere. Perhaps several PMs from fellow teammates dinally got to him and they caught him up on what was going on so he could have a voice....

[Tangrowth]

I still think niju could be bad fornsame reasons as before. And qhen I calles her on it, her whole mood changed for her moat recent posts.....

Do you mind pulling up a post where you perceive her mood to have changed, and why you think that change is suspicious?

[Tangrowth]

I'm suspicious of Dom. It's like he came in here out of nowhere. Perhaps several PMs from fellow teammates dinally got to him and they caught him up on what was going on so he could have a voice....

I'm curious, why didn't you mention this before now? To be fair, it does seem you mentioned Dom appearing out of nowhere previously, but in that post you make no clear assertions regarding alignments. For example, I read that post in real time and then read it again when digging into your ISO and I had no idea you found Dom suspicious. If you've been working on forming opinions, why wait until the eleventh hour until I essentially had to put your life on the line?

[Elohcin]

I guess looking through the list, tgose are my top two suspects right now. I also think that one of the newbiea are probably bad. I imagibe epi would do something like that. And if I had to gueas one od thw newbies, it would be diiny over dunya. Dunya has not only seemed helpful, but he has asked questions in the threas that seem genuine which he could have asked in BTSC.

[Tangrowth]

Now....as for the game, I'm a little overwhelmed. Did Dom just come out of nowhere? Or ia that just me? And sloonei is really starting to make opinions now. But there are atill so many quiet players. We must not forgwt about them.

I have a horribly busy day with work, school, an appointment, a play date, and another mafia game I'm in. I will be back later hopefully with an opinion on who I think is bad. For now, I think all the names being thrown around are civ.

(sorry for all the questions, but this just popped in my mind and I wanted to say it)

Further, isn't this statement noncongruent with a suspicion of Dom? He was clearly one of the names being thrown around at the time you made this post.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure I believe you.

[Tangrowth]

I guess looking through the list, tgose are my top two suspects right now. I also think that one of the newbiea are probably bad. I imagibe epi would do something like that. And if I had to gueas one od thw newbies, it would be diiny over dunya. Dunya has not only seemed helpful, but he has asked questions in the threas that seem genuine which he could have asked in BTSC.

Would you prefer to lynch Dom or Blooper?

Also, just so you and malakim and everyone else knows, but dunya is female.

[DFaraday]

Here you go MP. I found pretty much the whole thing convincing.

I won't be around until the early evening Central/Eastern time at the earliest.

I haven't caught up but I want to emphasize that I'm still feeling strongly about Dom. Since I know I won't be around until closer to the deadline, I wanted to take a handful of minutes here to clarify as clearly as possible why I suspect Dom as strongly as I do. So here's my interpretation of the exact train of events as it went down, and I want some outside opinions on this (barring they haven't come already and aren't going to anyway) to see what you all think -- and significantly, make sure I'm not just tunneling because it's about me, so I'm curious as to whether any of you all agree that (1) this is indeed how it went down and (2) this is suspicious, because I feel that it's important.

Dom: I believe MP is being dishonest about his feelings re: LC. (He said this not only here but again here in a very assertive/strongly worded fashion.)

MP: I request that you explain how you came to this conclusion -- because I cannot discern how you did so and this is important as to make a determination as to whether you are lying or not. (I said this here after he made the assertion twice as referenced above.)

Dom: Restate your feelings on LC (succinctly, specifically in 10 words or less) so that I can better explain myself. (He said this here.)

MP: You avoided answering my question, and I feel that is suspicious. I will not acquiesce to your request to summarize because you made the assertion accusing me of dishonesty, therefore it is your responsibility to expand on how you reached that conclusion. reference

Dom: I refuse to acquiesce to your request and I double down on my assertion that you're bullshitting. reference

MP: You STILL haven't answered the question. This is suspicious. The burden of proof is on you to explain why you think my LC thoughts are disingenuous. reference

Why would a townie not make any effort at all to clarify? I admittedly have a long history with Dom (he played my first game ever 7 years ago and we consistently butt heads because we approach things differently), but I see absolutely no reason why Dom would behave this way at all if town. Literally everything is textbook scum. Dom makes an assertion that I'm full of crap, but he can't explain it. And now I feel as though, now backed into a corner because I called him out on it, Dom is doubling down on his original assertion that I'm full of shit re: LC, and instead of even briefly trying to explain where he was coming from, he refuses to, and therefore I have every reason to believe he is the one full of shit, and is trying to turn this into a one vs. one argument so that he doesn't have to explain himself -- because he can't. Because he fabricated his opinion. Townies don't care about consistency; they care about getting to the truth. Baddies are much more apt to be consistent in my view; at least when townies are consistent they are able to explain their train of thoughts -- which is EXACTLY what Long Con did when I went back and forth with him over and over and precisely why I'm town reading him. Because LC seemed genuinely interested in convincing others of that fact and in engaging me. Dom doesn't seem concerned with ANY of that at all; instead, he falls back into consistency because it's all he has to play at this point, and he's not trying to convince anyone, he just keeps barking his opinion with little persuasion.

This is important because I feel extremely strongly about this, but I am aware of how I easily can go down rabbitholes as town and lose sight of something to a fault and mislynch a townie, so if you all aren't seeing any of this, I feel as though I need to know why. Because I feel as though we have a 98% chance of lynching a scum in Dom at this moment.

I'll be back later to investigate other things because I feel as though I've taken this as far as I can -- for now I really need to refocus on the PhD. Thanks to everyone else who has contributed other discussion thus far. Let's make this as productive a D2 as possible.

[Tangrowth]

Thanks, DF!

I know you're not typically a rainbow kind of guy, but would you mind throwing one up for me, or maybe at least a reads list of some kind so I can know how you're feeling about as many folks as possible?

[Epignosis]

I'm going to see if I can beat Super Street Fighter II before the deadline.

[Tangrowth]

I'm going to see if I can beat Super Street Fighter II before the deadline.

Lol, best of luck to you!

[Elohcin]

I still think niju could be bad fornsame reasons as before. And qhen I calles her on it, her whole mood changed for her moat recent posts.....

Do you mind pulling up a post where you perceive her mood to have changed, and why you think that change is suspicious?

She was crazy bubly at first, which is fine and expected with RL stuff, but I shouldn't have said anything because today she came in all busy and tired needing a nap. She posted at like 4:50 and then came back less than 40 minutes later saying she had taken a nap AND she was caught up and ready to talk. No way. Shortest nap ever. No way she was caught up in that time after bwing gone sonlong and claiming ahe forgot she was playing. Not after she was so bubly and excited the first day.

[Tangrowth]

I still think niju could be bad fornsame reasons as before. And qhen I calles her on it, her whole mood changed for her moat recent posts.....

Do you mind pulling up a post where you perceive her mood to have changed, and why you think that change is suspicious?

She was crazy bubly at first, which is fine and expected with RL stuff, but I shouldn't have said anything because today she came in all busy and tired needing a nap. She posted at like 4:50 and then came back less than 40 minutes later saying she had taken a nap AND she was caught up and ready to talk. No way. Shortest nap ever. No way she was caught up in that time after bwing gone sonlong and claiming ahe forgot she was playing. Not after she was so bubly and excited the first day.

Cool, thanks.

Last question for now, I swear: Why (regarding the bolded/underlined statement)? Wouldn't it be generally preferable for you to share your observations and speculations?

[Elohcin]

I'm suspicious of Dom. It's like he came in here out of nowhere. Perhaps several PMs from fellow teammates dinally got to him and they caught him up on what was going on so he could have a voice....

I'm curious, why didn't you mention this before now? To be fair, it does seem you mentioned Dom appearing out of nowhere previously, but in that post you make no clear assertions regarding alignments. For example, I read that post in real time and then read it again when digging into your ISO and I had no idea you found Dom suspicious. If you've been working on forming opinions, why wait until the eleventh hour until I essentially had to put your life on the line?

Because I'm so damn busy. I was just going to let them game go. Let y'all lynxh me and see i was civ. But then I thought about it and feel guilty. I'm always telling civs to work their asses off and stop sitting on the sidelines. So I'm getting off my ass.

As so "all" name thrown around.... I don't think Dom had been mentioned when I said that. And bllopera name wasn't being thrown around. Youra was though.

[Tangrowth]

[mention]malakim2099[/mention], you going to be back before EoD?

[Tangrowth]

I'm suspicious of Dom. It's like he came in here out of nowhere. Perhaps several PMs from fellow teammates dinally got to him and they caught him up on what was going on so he could have a voice....

I'm curious, why didn't you mention this before now? To be fair, it does seem you mentioned Dom appearing out of nowhere previously, but in that post you make no clear assertions regarding alignments. For example, I read that post in real time and then read it again when digging into your ISO and I had no idea you found Dom suspicious. If you've been working on forming opinions, why wait until the eleventh hour until I essentially had to put your life on the line?

Because I'm so damn busy. I was just going to let them game go. Let y'all lynxh me and see i was civ. But then I thought about it and feel guilty. I'm always telling civs to work their asses off and stop sitting on the sidelines. So I'm getting off my ass.

As so "all" name thrown around.... I don't think Dom had been mentioned when I said that. And bllopera name wasn't being thrown around. Youra was though.

But you weren't feeling any lynch pressure until after that post, am I right?

I'll take what you have to say into consideration nonetheless, thanks.

[Elohcin]

If I didn't share and just observed, maybe she would have come in today differently and I would have a better judgement of her than I even have now.

[Tangrowth]

If I didn't share and just observed, maybe she would have come in today differently and I would have a better judgement of her than I even have now.

I'm a bit confused; do you have reason to believe you were the cause of her frustration? (guess I lied about not asking any further questions)

[Elohcin]

What do you mean by feeling any lynch pressure? And what post?

If you mean feeling like I'd be lynched....I felt like tgat all day.

[Elohcin]

No no...but she was all bubly when she first cane into the game. i aaid something about it, and she dropped the bubbly.

[Elohcin]

Coincidence, maybe. Or matbe she would have remained bubbly if I didn't mention it. Its weird when you can hear someone's voice as you read their posts. It makes a difference. I almost wisb I would have left it be and let her be bubbly and just observed her actions that way for a bit longer.

[Elohcin]

Sorry for all the typos. Fat fingers. I know I say it all the time.

[Elohcin]

The whole nap thing today though and catching up and ready to post all in about 40 minutes time is what sealed my suspicion of blooper.

[Tangrowth]

What do you mean by feeling any lynch pressure? And what post?

If you mean feeling like I'd be lynched....I felt like tgat all day.

Sorry, I should have been more specific.

The post I'm referring to is this post in which you said Dom was coming out of nowhere and such, you didn't mention him being suspicious. If you click on that post and scroll up, that's when I had already made my aggressive posts and vote towards Dom, though I hadn't yet come back to the thread and made my giant reiteration post. So I would say he was a topic of discussion.

Now regarding lynch pressure, you just said in response to me asking you why you didn't mention suspects earlier is that you felt as though you were going to be lynched. But you made various posts throughout the Day cycle, including that post I just referenced above, right? And you mentioned you said "all" of the names being discussed are town. I already have reason to believe this is noncongruent with a suspicion of Dom you just now stated. What further bothers me is that your explanation that you thought you were going to be lynched and THAT's why you didn't give suspects earlier is a bit odd considering you had zero votes at the time you made your posts earlier in the day. So what made you feel like you were going to be lynched, especially if there were many other topics of discussion?

I just really don't understand your motivations. You've said you're baddie hunting. I don't see it. Then I threatened your life tonight and you threw out some reads in quick succession, but you never mentioned these earlier. You can see why I think you might be pulling them out of thin air, right?

[Tangrowth]

The whole nap thing today though and catching up and ready to post all in about 40 minutes time is what sealed my suspicion of blooper.

Whom do you find more suspicious: Blooper or Dom? You said those were you top two suspects, right?

[Tangrowth]

malakim possible w/w with Eloh. Would rather lynch Eloh than malakim I think. Positive results will spur a look at malakim.

Gotta say I'm not huge on lynching blooper or LC

I'll leave my vote on Eloh for now. Sorry I can't be active more around dayend. Family.

[mention]speedchuck[/mention]

I'm just now realizing your vote hasn't been cast.

[Tangrowth]

[mention]DFaraday[/mention]

What are your thoughts on what Elohcin has been saying recently, if you're still around?

[DFaraday]

Thanks, DF!

I know you're not typically a rainbow kind of guy, but would you mind throwing one up for me, or maybe at least a reads list of some kind so I can know how you're feeling about as many folks as possible?

Not on my phone. I will when I get home tonight.

[Tangrowth]

Thanks, DF!

I know you're not typically a rainbow kind of guy, but would you mind throwing one up for me, or maybe at least a reads list of some kind so I can know how you're feeling about as many folks as possible?

Not on my phone. I will when I get home tonight.

Cool, thanks. I eagerly await it.