Mountain Mafia [END]

[Jackofhearts2005]

Tie strategy is overrated.

Good application: Your top two suspects have votes. You tie their trains and see what baddies do.

Bad application: You vote for someone who you don't think is bad for no benefit.

Scum application: Doing the previously stated thing as an excuse not to have to scumhunt.

[Jackofhearts2005]

Tie strategy is overrated.

Good application: Your top two suspects have votes. You tie their trains and see what baddies do.

Bad application: You vote for someone who you don't think is bad for no benefit.

Scum application: Doing the previously stated thing as an excuse not to have to scumhunt.

Bob is here.

[Kylemii]

tie strategy nearly caught 2/3 of the scumteam in pirate game and only failed because we didn't follow through with it/followed through on the wrong people

[Kylemii]

it's different here though because about half the thread or more won't even be awake during EoD

[Long Con]

...the accusation (Quin/Sloonei's version anyhow) has merit.

What's the difference between Quin and Sloonei seeing Epi's behaviour as buddying, and me seeing Epi's behaviour as buddying?

I felt their posts emphasized "no hunting" more than yours. Probably letting Speedchuck's comments color my memory.

Maybe I can colour your memory with a different hue:

What I am saying is that both of the referenced posts by Epignosis are devoid of content or attempts to gain information or a better understanding of the players. In short, they're filler posts, attempts by a Bad Boy to be present and seem relevant.

Is that kind of what you mean by emphasizing "no hunting"?

Okay fine. You emphasized hunting just as much as Sloonei and Quin.

You're already my top town read. I'm not sure what this line of inquiry is even about.

I'm not concerned with who thinks I'm a town read. I just don't want to be written off as a wing nut psycho when I looked back over each of my posts and they make clear, simple sense. I felt like your post was perpetuating the "wing nut LC" idea by differentiating my accusations and Quin/Sloonei's, so it was important for me to call out. I really hope you understand where I'm coming from with this.

[Jackofhearts2005]

tie strategy nearly caught 2/3 of the scumteam in pirate game and only failed because we didn't follow through with it/followed through on the wrong people

You out to nearly catch some scum?

Who is bad, Kyle? Lots of content today.

[Jackofhearts2005]

...the accusation (Quin/Sloonei's version anyhow) has merit.

What's the difference between Quin and Sloonei seeing Epi's behaviour as buddying, and me seeing Epi's behaviour as buddying?

I felt their posts emphasized "no hunting" more than yours. Probably letting Speedchuck's comments color my memory.

Maybe I can colour your memory with a different hue:

What I am saying is that both of the referenced posts by Epignosis are devoid of content or attempts to gain information or a better understanding of the players. In short, they're filler posts, attempts by a Bad Boy to be present and seem relevant.

Is that kind of what you mean by emphasizing "no hunting"?

Okay fine. You emphasized hunting just as much as Sloonei and Quin.

You're already my top town read. I'm not sure what this line of inquiry is even about.

I'm not concerned with who thinks I'm a town read. I just don't want to be written off as a wing nut psycho when I looked back over each of my posts and they make clear, simple sense. I felt like your post was perpetuating the "wing nut LC" idea by differentiating my accusations and Quin/Sloonei's, so it was important for me to call out. I really hope you understand where I'm coming from with this.

If I think you're a wingnut, why are half of my posts "LC is obviously town" or "Epi is bad"?

The only place you're not on point is your Jack read.

What you're doing is saying Jack is scum, Jack called other people's arguments better than yours in a single post, ergo Jack is trying to discredit you. But at least see I'm not trying to discredit you.

[Dom]

y'all talk too much

[Jackofhearts2005]

tie strategy nearly caught 2/3 of the scumteam in pirate game and only failed because we didn't follow through with it/followed through on the wrong people

You out to nearly catch some scum?

Who is bad, Kyle? Lots of content today.

But seriously. The only people the town caught with this strategy in Pirates were Wilgy and Quin, who were both town. Wilgy was supatown and he died in the pursuit of ties.

Cut it out.

[Long Con]

If I think you're a wingnut, why are half of my posts "LC is obviously town" or "Epi is bad"?

Being a wing nut is not necessarily associated with alignment, but I would think it points more to Civ because a wing nut believes in his crazy, whereas a baddie is just acting like a wing nut. I think.

The only place you're not on point is your Jack read.

What you're doing is saying Jack is scum, Jack called other people's arguments better than yours in a single post, ergo Jack is trying to discredit you. But at least see I'm not trying to discredit you.

LOL no I'm not. I haven't accused you of anything except a scumslip on Day 0. I was defending my image, not accusing you of being scum.

[Elohcin]

Oh. My. Goodness. Reading this thread is like listening to my children bicker. I'm not done catching up, but I'm over it. This.post below is why I'm voting LC. He admits to making up a reason to accuse epi of being bad. This ia what mafia have to do to look like they are scum-hunting.

WHY do you make me DO THIS? I wasn't "identifying" them as Civilians. It's an obvious and necessary assumption in order to be able to accuse you as I have.

Ah. An assumption. Three of them, actually. Glad to hear you admit it.

You have to assume three people are civilians to arrive at the conclusion that I am bad. Let that sink in.

Yet I can't say I'm not going to vote a guy because of Elton John or that I raised an opinion regarding Mesk's response to being big or little. Too bad you didn't quote the next line to "Rocket Man." Because then I would have been buddying you.

[Long Con]

Me too! *vote Epignosis*

Are you still angry from the previous game with epi where he found you out as mafia?

Not really, and I think you missed the point of that non-public conversation regarding what upset me about that game.

Oh. My. Goodness. Reading this thread is like listening to my children bicker. I'm not done catching up, but I'm over it. This.post below is why I'm voting LC. He admits to making up a reason to accuse epi of being bad. This ia what mafia have to do to look like they are scum-hunting.

WHY do you make me DO THIS? I wasn't "identifying" them as Civilians. It's an obvious and necessary assumption in order to be able to accuse you as I have.

Ah. An assumption. Three of them, actually. Glad to hear you admit it.

You have to assume three people are civilians to arrive at the conclusion that I am bad. Let that sink in.

Yet I can't say I'm not going to vote a guy because of Elton John or that I raised an opinion regarding Mesk's response to being big or little. Too bad you didn't quote the next line to "Rocket Man." Because then I would have been buddying you.

We are from different worlds.

[sprityo]

*vote Nutella*

I want to hear more of what LC has to say because he has my ear

From Nutella i haven’t picked up icy over the course of checking in throughout today

[sprityo]

Picked up anything*

Anything is icy people,

Autocorrect is a gift

[sprityo]

I also lean trusting on jack and speed so I like the Nutella lynch

[Long Con]

I want to hear more of what LC has to say because he has my ear

That's the opposite of how most people in the thread feel, I think. On any particular subject? Surely not about Epignosis.

Elohcin: ok, I think I have a different way of explaining it.

Quin thought Epi was buddying mesk and bob. In order for him to be right, that Epi is a baddie doing some buddying, he is assuming that mesk and bob are Civ. Are you with me on that?

[Kylemii]

tie strategy nearly caught 2/3 of the scumteam in pirate game and only failed because we didn't follow through with it/followed through on the wrong people

You out to nearly catch some scum?

disrespectful.

Who is bad, Kyle? Lots of content today.

honestly today's content has given me more good vibes than bad ones

Epignosis still looks bad to me, but his only contributions today have been defending against LC. I was hoping to talk them into ignoring each other for a few hours so we could get some isolated reads from his behaviors but he logged off.

nutella's confidence that LC v Epi 'wasn't getting us anywhere' still bugs me, and her expressing familiarity with such situations without providing much more insight into the topic seems problematic

Sloonei and LC I'm reading town, I also feel pretty okay about Quin

[sprityo]

I want to hear more of what LC has to say because he has my ear

That's the opposite of how most people in the thread feel, I think. On any particular subject? Surely not about Epignosis.

Elohcin: ok, I think I have a different way of explaining it.

Quin thought Epi was buddying mesk and bob. In order for him to be right, that Epi is a baddie doing some buddying, he is assuming that mesk and bob are Civ. Are you with me on that?

I mean in the WAY you explained it. Maybe it’s because of your experience with knowing Epi over years, but having all the words broken down into a single or couple concepts helps me understand where you’re coming from and makes me want to side with you on the argument

[Kylemii]

tie strategy nearly caught 2/3 of the scumteam in pirate game and only failed because we didn't follow through with it/followed through on the wrong people

You out to nearly catch some scum?

Who is bad, Kyle? Lots of content today.

But seriously. The only people the town caught with this strategy in Pirates were Wilgy and Quin, who were both town. Wilgy was supatown and he died in the pursuit of ties.

Cut it out.

Actually 100% false. We got MP lynched because of it and we should have had Speedchuck (who led the lynch on Wilgy) too if every single active player hadn't been killed in the span of 3 nights.

Wilgy died because Speedchuck tried to bus a civ to save his teammate and Quin died because of regular vote analysis.

[nutella]

well sprit all I can say is I sure am icy, ha ha

[Kylemii]

Nutella talk to me about Jack, why jack?

[Jackofhearts2005]

tie strategy nearly caught 2/3 of the scumteam in pirate game and only failed because we didn't follow through with it/followed through on the wrong people

You out to nearly catch some scum?

Who is bad, Kyle? Lots of content today.

But seriously. The only people the town caught with this strategy in Pirates were Wilgy and Quin, who were both town. Wilgy was supatown and he died in the pursuit of ties.

Cut it out.

Actually 100% false. We got MP lynched because of it and we should have had Speedchuck (who led the lynch on Wilgy) too if every single active player hadn't been killed in the span of 3 nights.

Wilgy died because Speedchuck tried to bus a civ to save his teammate and Quin died because of regular vote analysis.

How do you figure ties helped you catch MP? Or almost helped catch Speedchuck?

[Kylemii]

How do you figure ties helped you catch MP? Or almost helped catch Speedchuck?

Already explained. MP's weird behavior under pressureas well as the fire drill cemented his lynch day 2.

Speedchuck drove the bus into Dr Wilgy potentially saving MP, had MP switched his vote to Wilgy it would have gauranteed his safety.

Jack, why is this important to you?

[Jackofhearts2005]

How do you figure ties helped you catch MP? Or almost helped catch Speedchuck?

Already explained. MP's weird behavior under pressureas well as the fire drill cemented his lynch day 2.

Speedchuck drove the bus into Dr Wilgy potentially saving MP, had MP switched his vote to Wilgy it would have gauranteed his safety.

Jack, why is this important to you?

You're misremembering. Speed was the first vote on Wilgy. There was no save. It was townies who CFDed onto their fellow townie. Townies moved. Scum stayed still or voted in self preservation, revealing nothing to the town.

It's important to me because I've lost far more games because the town underperformed (myself included) than because the scum pulled off amazing plays.

I honestly think the trend of trying to use lynches as an experiment via ties instead of trying to get the most votes on the most players is detrimental to the town. Yet here we are.

[Long Con]

I want to hear more of what LC has to say because he has my ear

That's the opposite of how most people in the thread feel, I think. On any particular subject? Surely not about Epignosis.

Elohcin: ok, I think I have a different way of explaining it.

Quin thought Epi was buddying mesk and bob. In order for him to be right, that Epi is a baddie doing some buddying, he is assuming that mesk and bob are Civ. Are you with me on that?

I mean in the WAY you explained it. Maybe it’s because of your experience with knowing Epi over years, but having all the words broken down into a single or couple concepts helps me understand where you’re coming from and makes me want to side with you on the argument

I have never had anyone say that to me before.

This is cool. If you really understand where I'm coming from, can you field any further questions on the subject?

[Jackofhearts2005]

Most *scummy* players

[Kylemii]

Jack.

Do you think the lynch polls shouldn't be used as evidence to determine players alignments in proximity to the lynchee after the fact?

[Kylemii]

I'm like 90% sure our definitions of tie meta are 2 completely different things

[Jackofhearts2005]

Jack.

Do you think the lynch polls shouldn't be used as evidence to determine players alignments in proximity to the lynchee after the fact?

I think vote analysis is overrated. Like a baddie is likely to reluctantly bus or quickly bus at the beginning of day for cred. Context is important.

By definition, if you expect the baddies to react to a tie, you're expecting a civvy to be lynched. I don't think the town should give up chances to eliminate baddies.

You're also assuming baddies aren't already where they want to be (Speed in Pirates) or don't have legit reasons to vote i.e. saving themselves (MP in Pirates). Instead, you focus on late vote switchers which might net you some town reads (Kyle in Pirates) as well as false scum reads (Quin, DDL in Pirates).

It's a weak strategy.

[Kylemii]

The point of vote analysis is you look for oddities and then examine the context. You look for the busses, you look for the switches of opportunity, you look for the saves. The mistakes you're describing happen in regular lynches too. That's mafia.

Jack this is really exhausting and ultimately pointless, right, are you going somewhere important with this? Or do you want to talk about the situation we're in right now, in this game?

[Elohcin]

I want to hear more of what LC has to say because he has my ear

That's the opposite of how most people in the thread feel, I think. On any particular subject? Surely not about Epignosis.

Elohcin: ok, I think I have a different way of explaining it.

Quin thought Epi was buddying mesk and bob. In order for him to be right, that Epi is a baddie doing some buddying, he is assuming that mesk and bob are Civ. Are you with me on that?

I'm following.

[Jackofhearts2005]

I've said my piece on today's lynch. Plenty of other people haven't provided much content so I'll give them a chance to catch up or speak.

I'll be lurking until EOD in case anyone has questions or I need to move my vote.

[Elohcin]

I want to hear more of what LC has to say because he has my ear

That's the opposite of how most people in the thread feel, I think. On any particular subject? Surely not about Epignosis.

Elohcin: ok, I think I have a different way of explaining it.

Quin thought Epi was buddying mesk and bob. In order for him to be right, that Epi is a baddie doing some buddying, he is assuming that mesk and bob are Civ. Are you with me on that?

I'm following.

But what if epi is bad and and either mesk or bob is as well. He he is buddying both -one teammate and one civ. That could be possible as well. Just a baddie trying to keep others on their toes...throwing people off their game.

[Elohcin]

Or...what if epi is civ and just feeling out other players and their reactions, especially one whonhe hasn't played with before moat likely. I think this is the likely scenario.

[Long Con]

All of those outcomes are entirely possible. May I assume that, since you said you were voting me for "making up a reason to accuse epi of being bad", that you'll change your vote before heading off to bed since you now understand that was not the case?

[Kylemii]

I don't understand how today's discussion came to a point where our 2 lynch options are LC and Nutella, I haven't seen a case made against LC

Spoiler: show

also this isn't relevant but I voted for MP early and never switched my vote so a lot of your argument was invalid but don't take this as an invitation to keep talking about and I was going to let it go but it's going to bother me if I don't say something

[speedchuck]

I don't understand how today's discussion came to a point where our 2 lynch options are LC and Nutella, I haven't seen a case made against LC

Yeah, even Epi would be a better vote than LC.

[Quin]

Can't say that today was unproductive.

[Quin]

I'm back on nutella, since it seems like it's going to fall between her or LC.

[Kylemii]

I also don't fully understand the case against Nutella either, is there more to it than I've seen?

[Quin]

I want to keep rolling out those ISO's but I have work to do again. Town reading LC right now, but I wouldn't hate a lynch of any of the other major names that got thrown around today.

[Quin]

I also don't fully understand the case against Nutella either, is there more to it than I've seen?

nutella and Epi are potential teammates, since she agreed with my thoughts on Epi when I hadn't made my thoughts clear yet. I'm not sold on it.

Spoiler: show

I'm with Sloonei (and LC, wow, what a surprise, it's el clásico again and everything is predictable and nothing hurts)

Are you more inclined toward my hesitance or LC's confidence?

The former, I guess. Mostly I agree with the sentiments you've expressed about why Quin's reasoning is fine for day 1, and probably enough to join Quin and LC in an epi vote if I don't get anything better for a day 1 reason

What is Quin's reasoning?

Here is everything Quin has said about me:

ima vote epignosis whenever and i'd like someone to tell me why that is

what does this sentence mean?

do you want other people to tell you why you are going to vote for mr gnosis?

i'd like that very much thank you

I'm better at being scum than that Sloonei.

Can you provide proof of this?

idk but this is a perfect opportunity to reaffirm that I'm a better mafia than Epignosis.

I didn't challenge Sloonei's response to my question, so I can understand anyone assuming that my thoughts were the same as his.

I think Jack made the same assumption.

I suspect her for other things.

[Epignosis]

Long Con has done nothing but provoke me, and he knows it, which means I am less likely to do anything productive this Day phase because he knows I'll argue with him, and I know when I do argue with him, he's going to continue making things up (like I somehow magically chose who was going to quote Elton John) and whenever I challenge anything he has to say about me, he will give glib, unhelpful responses ("Indeed." "Keep dancing," etc.), which shows he isn't interested in figuring me out. He's interested in getting me out regardless of my alignment. It almost feels personal.

I swear that my suspicion of you is genuine, not personal.

When you take my two "glib" posts, and ignore all my other ones, to make the point that I'm not interested in figuring you out, it's deceptive. This makes you look suspicious.

When you try to twist my clear points into "magically chose - Elton John" crap, it's deceptive. This makes you look suspicious.

Just stop pretending you don't understand, and it will be a start for you looking less suspicious. Why do you DO this???

By saying I'm pretending not to understand, you are effectively calling me "stupid," because I don't understand.

How the fuck did I choose who would quote Elton John? I'm not psychic.

I'm out for the night.

I never said you chose who would quote Elton John. You chose him because he responded to you. He gave you the buddying opportunity you were looking for, and you chose that Civ because of it.

So, according to you, I must have been sitting in BTSC, rubbing my hands together going, "Oh boy, I just posted an Elton John song lyric. Let's see if a civilian responds to it so I can buddy up to him! This is going to be great! Just watch me cruise to victory by telling this unwitting participant in my clever charade that I won't be voting for him Day 1, and then BOOM, we win and he'll never know what him him! "

I can't believe you actually think this.

[Epignosis]

I think she's more likely bad if Epi is bad and Epi is more likely to be bad if just one of them is.

Can you expand on this link?

Sure. A few good townies voting for Epi, who is probably bad.

Nutella hamdwaves this, votes for me and leave.

Assume Epi is bad. Nutella is likely trying to discredit the Epi train, hoping his dancing skills allow him to survive and making an excuse not to vote for him. So Nutella is likely bad. Or
Maybe wrong. If I suddenly have a kill I have to use right after Epi is lynched, I shoot Nutella.

Assume Epi is good. Nutella isn't defending her scumbuddy Epi because Epi isn't scum. The case on Nutella half evaporates. If I suddenly have a kill, I don't shoot Nutella.



Let's reverse this.

Assume Nutella is bad. Oh, she's probably covering for scumbuddy Epi but maybe she thinks Epi going to get lynched and is just letting him. I'm willing to use my hypothetical kill to shoot Epi at any rate.

Assume Nutella is good. She's probably just wrong. I still trust my reasoning over hers. I still shoot Epi.



So lynching Epi is more likely to catch scum and allows me to correct a mistake if I'm making one.

They're probably both bad. Probably doesn't matter. Epi should still go first.

Or you just don't know what the word "likely" means.

[Kylemii]

I also don't fully understand the case against Nutella either, is there more to it than I've seen?

nutella and Epi are potential teammates, since she agreed with my thoughts on Epi when I hadn't made my thoughts clear yet. I'm not sold on it.

Spoiler: show

I'm with Sloonei (and LC, wow, what a surprise, it's el clásico again and everything is predictable and nothing hurts)

Are you more inclined toward my hesitance or LC's confidence?

The former, I guess. Mostly I agree with the sentiments you've expressed about why Quin's reasoning is fine for day 1, and probably enough to join Quin and LC in an epi vote if I don't get anything better for a day 1 reason

What is Quin's reasoning?

Here is everything Quin has said about me:

ima vote epignosis whenever and i'd like someone to tell me why that is

what does this sentence mean?

do you want other people to tell you why you are going to vote for mr gnosis?

i'd like that very much thank you

I'm better at being scum than that Sloonei.

Can you provide proof of this?

idk but this is a perfect opportunity to reaffirm that I'm a better mafia than Epignosis.

I didn't challenge Sloonei's response to my question, so I can understand anyone assuming that my thoughts were the same as his.

I think Jack made the same assumption.

I suspect her for other things.

What other things?

[Quin]

I also don't fully understand the case against Nutella either, is there more to it than I've seen?

nutella and Epi are potential teammates, since she agreed with my thoughts on Epi when I hadn't made my thoughts clear yet. I'm not sold on it.

Spoiler: show

I'm with Sloonei (and LC, wow, what a surprise, it's el clásico again and everything is predictable and nothing hurts)

Are you more inclined toward my hesitance or LC's confidence?

The former, I guess. Mostly I agree with the sentiments you've expressed about why Quin's reasoning is fine for day 1, and probably enough to join Quin and LC in an epi vote if I don't get anything better for a day 1 reason

What is Quin's reasoning?

Here is everything Quin has said about me:

ima vote epignosis whenever and i'd like someone to tell me why that is

what does this sentence mean?

do you want other people to tell you why you are going to vote for mr gnosis?

i'd like that very much thank you

I'm better at being scum than that Sloonei.

Can you provide proof of this?

idk but this is a perfect opportunity to reaffirm that I'm a better mafia than Epignosis.

I didn't challenge Sloonei's response to my question, so I can understand anyone assuming that my thoughts were the same as his.

I think Jack made the same assumption.

I suspect her for other things.

What other things?

I think she was sitting on the fence when she said that she could understand both Sloonei's hesitance towards the Epi case and LC's confidence towards it. I think her immediate discredit of the LC/Epi argument as nothing of import was disingenuous.

[Kylemii]

and she never really elucidated on that did she

[Quin]

and she never really elucidated on that did she

Nobody ever takes me seriously enough.

[Long Con]

Long Con has done nothing but provoke me, and he knows it, which means I am less likely to do anything productive this Day phase because he knows I'll argue with him, and I know when I do argue with him, he's going to continue making things up (like I somehow magically chose who was going to quote Elton John) and whenever I challenge anything he has to say about me, he will give glib, unhelpful responses ("Indeed." "Keep dancing," etc.), which shows he isn't interested in figuring me out. He's interested in getting me out regardless of my alignment. It almost feels personal.

I swear that my suspicion of you is genuine, not personal.

When you take my two "glib" posts, and ignore all my other ones, to make the point that I'm not interested in figuring you out, it's deceptive. This makes you look suspicious.

When you try to twist my clear points into "magically chose - Elton John" crap, it's deceptive. This makes you look suspicious.

Just stop pretending you don't understand, and it will be a start for you looking less suspicious. Why do you DO this???

By saying I'm pretending not to understand, you are effectively calling me "stupid," because I don't understand.

How the fuck did I choose who would quote Elton John? I'm not psychic.

I'm out for the night.

I never said you chose who would quote Elton John. You chose him because he responded to you. He gave you the buddying opportunity you were looking for, and you chose that Civ because of it.

So, according to you, I must have been sitting in BTSC, rubbing my hands together going, "Oh boy, I just posted an Elton John song lyric. Let's see if a civilian responds to it so I can buddy up to him! This is going to be great! Just watch me cruise to victory by telling this unwitting participant in my clever charade that I won't be voting for him Day 1, and then BOOM, we win and he'll never know what him him! "

I can't believe you actually think this.

Well, I kinda pictured it a lot more casual.

[Epignosis]

There is time left in the phase, and I am home. I had a long rehearsal for a Christmas concert. It gave me some distance. I want to move my vote off Long Con, but I don't yet know where to. I don't know why LC comes up with the stuff he does against me, because it never makes sense and he's never right, and I always see him as bad for it.

The way the pendulum swung though doesn't feel like a civilian-driven turnaround. While I don't agree that I am a better lynch than Long Con or nutella, it is bizarre to me that people are voting the two individuals I named as my top suspects early on.

My understanding is that the lynch ends in just over two hours. I want to take a fresh look.