Mountain Mafia [END]

[Epignosis]

I read thia post abd think...sure...could be true and sig could be JJJ's teammate. But I also think this maybe be baddie kyle finding a way to put suspicion and attention on someone other than himself. I cannot decide.

I'm not concerned by what you think of me. This shit right here? It's finally in my wheelhouse. This is the part of mafia that I play for. Analyzing bonds between players post-mortem, reevaluating players' past motivations after a reveal, dismantling the mafia's plans piece by piece after a hole's been punched through their armor?

Hell. Fucking. Yes. This is my shit.

Still not information.

[Kylemii]

Still not information.

in·for·ma·tion
ˌinfərˈmāSH(ə)n/Submit
noun
1.
facts provided or learned about something or someone.
"a vital piece of information"
synonyms: details, particulars, facts, figures, statistics, data; More
2.
what is conveyed or represented by a particular arrangement or sequence of things.
"genetically transmitted information"

Fight me, punk.

[Epignosis]

"Facts."

The only facts you learn from a lynch are the role and alignment. Those are your facts.

You are talking about the interpretation of facts. Interpretations are not information.

[Kylemii]

I forgot that cbob was a potential lynch candidate. that should be factored in when viewing Jay's content relating to him.

[Epignosis]

Eloh, what is your opinion on Jack?

[dunya]

"Facts."

The only facts you learn from a lynch are the role and alignment. Those are your facts.

You are talking about the interpretation of facts. Interpretations are not information.

omg we unleashed a monster

[Epignosis]

JaggedJimmyJay - EGH
JJJ is never scum.
No, but really, I don't know what he'd be like as scum. If he's leading, and leading well, mafia will probably kill him and take care of things for us. If they start killing other leaders and JJJ takes control of the game, wipe him.

Don't sleep on this.

speedchuck was anti-JJJ without giving a damn about his alignment.

[Kylemii]

"Facts."

The only facts you learn from a lynch are the role and alignment. Those are your facts.

You are talking about the interpretation of facts. Interpretations are not information.

Epig come on dude. You've already shown you've taken a philosophy class in your lifetime so you have to know that that's not how it works.

If I say I have three sons with 3 different colored sets of eyes, one of them has green eyes and the other has blue eyes. What do you know about my third son? He probably has brown eyes. You'd know that without being told directly because you used other pieces of information to figure it out.

What if I told you I had 3 sons with 3 eye colors and I ONLY told you that the third son's eyes are brown? You'd know that between my other two sons, one of them would have blue eyes and one of them would have green eyes. You could still state with absolute certainty that between Son A and Son B, one of them has blue eyes.

Even when you can't determine which son has blue eyes, since you know that son C has brown eyes you can say for a *fact* that either son A or son B has blues, at which point it's your responsibility to dig into what other evidence there is to narrow it down further.

Symbolically speaking that is my approach to scum hunting, on a much smaller scale.

[Epignosis]

"Facts."

The only facts you learn from a lynch are the role and alignment. Those are your facts.

You are talking about the interpretation of facts. Interpretations are not information.

Epig come on dude. You've already shown you've taken a philosophy class in your lifetime so you have to know that that's not how it works.

If I say I have three sons with 3 different colored sets of eyes, one of them has green eyes and the other has blue eyes. What do you know about my third son? He probably has brown eyes. You'd know that without being told directly because you used other pieces of information to figure it out.

That's an inference. Not information.

And my inference would be that you are man-whore.

What if I told you I had 3 sons with 3 eye colors and I ONLY told you that the third son's eyes are brown? You'd know that between my other two sons, one of them would have blue eyes and one of them would have green eyes. You could still state with absolute certainty that between Son A and Son B, one of them has blue eyes.

Even when you can't determine which son has blue eyes, since you know that son C has brown eyes you can say for a *fact* that either son A or son B has blues, at which point it's your responsibility to dig into what other evidence there is to narrow it down further.

Symbolically speaking that is my approach to scum hunting, on a much smaller scale.

I would know this with absolute certainty?

No. No, I would not. Why?

Your eldest is Edgar Winter.

[dunya]

I feel you, dunya. It's entirely plaisible we all crossed nutella off our lists prematurely. Her behavior before the lynch was what did it for me, though, and not her reaction to it. She seemed to anticipate that a tie would happen. It's possible this was just a gambit that miraculously paid off. But the question of why she's still alive is a good one. I think there are answers thay don't have to involve her being scum, but it's still worth addressing.

If I were bad, I would not have killed nutella. I would have tried to target more dangerous civilian roles. If nutella is Everest, the trait passes down anyway- so it isn't a net gain of anything.

You're forgetting the tie on Jack and Sloonei Day 2. If nutella was Everest, (which we will say is possible for sake of this argument and since you assume she's not being killed because scum think it's not important to kill Everest when K2 inherits their ability, and they could take out other more important roles????----which are never revealed so they never know who they are taking out), Jack would have been clearly lynched vs Sloonei. Since he analyzed that situation as much as Sloonei, I feel he is not Aconcagua or Pico Cristóbal Colón. Plus, 2 empty night kills makes me feel Aconcagua was definitely targeted at night.

Also I completely disagree that taking out Everest and trying to figure out who K2 isn't important. I think they have the most dangerous day roles. Lynch shenanigans are a very important tool for scum. Their priority would be Everest and K2 imo.

[dunya]

I just went from 1 simple order this week to four orders (3 of them pretty elaborate) so I'm a little overwhelmed but thankful for such work so close to Christmas.

I just realized that you probably actually do make cakes.

Why yes. Yes, I do. www.facebook.com/LittleMissCakesNC

Link doesn't work

https://www.facebook.com/LittleMissCakesNC/

I am amazed. You are superbly talented!

[colonialbob]

Sloonei, here's the biggest thing about the bus case - I put JJJ in the lead. In my experience, mafia will almost never put their teammate in the lead unless they're an almost certain lynch, because mafia lives are super valuable. I could see a teammate voting him early and hoping the trains end up on different people so he could swap off, and I could definitely see a teammate jumping on to make sure their vote showed up once he flipped. But when I swapped my vote it was far from certain he was getting lynched - votes had been swapping for a while, his vote itself could've been thrown onto speed, Quin was voting for Epi or something silly like that. You swapped, I swapped, then several other people jumped on once he went ahead on the voting.

I don't agree with your self-analysis. Your vote might have put Jay ahead in the poll at the time, but like I've already said, the atmosphere in the thread at the time (and really for all of Day 4) was overwhelmingly anti-Jay. The flood of votes that came piling in afterward is a testament to that. And the fact that you've repeatedly turned to this in self-defense is not a great look for me, but I will grant you that my constant attacks have forced you to raise your shields. It's tough for me to be overly critical of that sort of thing when I'm the one causing it. That said, this sort of post isn't going to help you change the way I feel. I'm interested in understanding your thoughts, not a reflection on why I shouldn't treat your vote as suspicious.

I'm still interested in the development of your Jay read over time, as well as any updated reads you can share.

Yeah, I decided after this post I'm done defending myself with regards to the vote trains, because we'd just end up going in circles and it doesn't really get us anywhere anyway.

My JJJ read was basically driven by the cases of you and Epi. I dont have much original thought there, I'm afraid, just a case of "yeah those arguments make sense" combined with the other voters on each of them, like I talked about earlier. I'll work on updating other reads in light of the flip though.

[Kylemii]

speedchuck was willing to engage suspects pointedly, and he cut down his suspect pool with transparent civilian reads (or at least pledges not to lynch). I also like the tone he exhibited in his handling of the Epi/LC feud. Good vibes.

After having been asked by Nutella Jay posted good vibes on speed

@colonialbob I happen to disagree with most every D2 read you've posted, so I'm [retty sure I'd read you scum if I ISO'd you. The lack of defense you're getting in this is kinda disturbing.

I mean, sloon had a good argument, but everyone's just like 'sure' so far and we townies haven't been uniform on anything all game.

Does anyone think Cbob is town? Why?

I wouldn't label bob a town read. Question for you: what do you mean to imply with the highlighted comment?

Spacedaisy seems way more town than normal.

Quin seems consistent wit his cc123 performance. ???

I have no sig opinion yet

What is the purpose of this post?

LC raised a point in his ISO of/case against speedchuck that caught my attention, and I'd like to expand upon it:

(Basically I would think LC is scum but following such a stupid argument if he didn't genuinely see something in Epi is suicidal)

(And that's a town meta read on LC for me)

This post is problematic. It came on Day 1 when the Epi/LC feud was still the most significant dialogue in the thread. I've used colors to separate the important components. Green is meant to be portrayed as a sort of preliminary disclaimer which is qualified (and reversed) by what follows, but its utility in this post is sufficient to cancel out what follows. Consider the climate of the thread at the time -- Long Con and Epignosis are both fielding suspicion from varying sources, with the former taking the majority of it as the day approached its conclusion. speedchuck's post is supportive of Long Con, but with that disclaimer attached its capacity to change the minds of LC voters is minimized. This is evidenced in the responses that followed from Quin and colonialbob at least. The latter even liked speedchuck in that moment and still voted in opposition to the orange-colored text above.

It should be stated that speedchuck qualified himself in more certain terms sans-disclaimer the next day:

Spoiler: show

(Basically I would think LC is scum but following such a stupid argument if he didn't genuinely see something in Epi is suicidal)

(And that's a town meta read on LC for me)

LC would not have, as scum, taken one of the danciest, hardest-to-lynch targets and formed a stupid argument to try and lynch him. My meta on LC says this sincere, earnest, and suicidal lynchlust comes from a town headspace.

And seriously, who would target Epi as their easy D1 lynch?

Motive-wise, it makes zero sense for LC to be scum outside of tinfoil land.

I'd have liked this more had it come before the near-lynch of LC was finalized instead of in the following phase. I'll also add that this proposed problem may be reliant upon LC being a civilian, as the dynamic changes in a mafia-mafia scenario.

I can't tell if this is against LC or against Speedchuck

Excuse me? I clarified myself much, much earlier. If you really ISO'd me, you'd know that I have at least four five posts after your quoted post (and before EOD) that clarified LC as a townread. Not to mention that, in my opinion, the first post I made there clarifies LC as a townread. The purpose of the 'disclaimer' is to explain why I was voting for him before that post.

This is blatant misrepresentation. Some day 1 posts for you:

Spoiler: show

I think the Epi train was formed out of nothing, and from now on, I'm going to pick two peeps not to lynch on D1 of every game and announce it to the world just to prove it.

BTW, not lynching Jack or Quin today

Might be less than random now, IDGAF

Lynch Epi or Nutella of the current options I guess. Jack I want to keep around (this is not the first game I've said this in [Might have been scum in the other game, don't remember]).

I really don't think LC is like this as scum.

(Basically I would think LC is scum but following such a stupid argument if he didn't genuinely see something in Epi is suicidal)

(And that's a town meta read on LC for me)

you telling me lc wouldn't argue with epi just for the shits an' giggles?

As scum? I'm not entirely sure, but I'd lean "no."

what about the other way around? if epi was bad.

If LC is town and Epi bad?

It's possible. LC would have basically cornered Epi out of luck, but it's more likely than LC being scum I think

(Basically I would think LC is scum but following such a stupid argument if he didn't genuinely see something in Epi is suicidal)

(And that's a town meta read on LC for me)

you telling me lc wouldn't argue with epi just for the shits an' giggles?

As scum? I'm not entirely sure, but I'd lean "no."

I'm happy we're no longer focusing on one candidate anymore but I don't understand why LC has 3 votes.

I don't get it either

I don't understand how today's discussion came to a point where our 2 lynch options are LC and Nutella, I haven't seen a case made against LC

Yeah, even Epi would be a better vote than LC.

"Blatant misrepresentation"

Quin hates "inspired" as an overused Mafia word. I'll take "misrepresentation".

I saw your posts, and my job in assessing them is to judge the sincerity of your investment in avoiding a Long Con lynch. When I am already concerned about the post I discussed and then I see "I am not entirely sure but I'd lean no", I am not moved. There is a difference between posturing from a perspective of TMI and sincerely trying to drive a lynch away from a civilian read and onto a mafia read. The most powerful thing you said in Long Con's defense was your expansion of the initial post, at Sloonei's prod, after EOD.

I have no idea whether misrepresentation is scummy behavior from you, but I don't usually see it.

Take a stance.

Particularly aggressive. This seems like more than just distancing.

ELOHCIN
KYLEMII
SPEEDCHUCK
QUIN

bad
good
bad
good

Consistent.

this is not a post indicative on how I personally feel about sig and speedchuck at this time but

sig as a civilian pirate was more engaged and effortful in the high-octane Day 1 aboard the pirate ship than he was in this high-octane Day 1. Bad vibes.

Yeah, but Day 1 was over Thanksgiving holidays wasn't it?

speedchuck was willing to engage suspects pointedly, and he cut down his suspect pool with transparent civilian reads (or at least pledges not to lynch). I also like the tone he exhibited in his handling of the Epi/LC feud. Good vibes.

You reference the pirate game to give a meta based read on sig, but what about speedchuck's general aura in the beginning of pirates game when he was throwing up statistics and reads? Yet one of those gave you good vibes and the other bad vibes.

Meta reads have their place, but they are usually not ideal as a sole means of drawing reads. There's an application for them with low-content players who haven't provided the material necessary to assess them in preferable ways, i.e. thorough analysis, tone reads, or face value judgments of civilian utility. At the time I answered that prompt, I think sig had like five or six posts. For me, that's not often enough to develop an intuition. I'm willing to draw a read from the tabletop crumbs when I must, and often that's a time for a meta read to have some value. When there's more content available, as there was with speedchuck in that moment, then a purely meta read means less to me. It can still be a *component*, but it's going to move me less than my intuited reception of content at face value.

Supporting.

Day 4 proceed with salt.

Spoiler: show

speedchuck stuff

Spoiler: show

I'm starting a new job tomorrow. No idea what my web status will be like.

But if I was to vote now, I'd vote for Sloonei

Voting LC for page 4 stuff that I said I was gonna vote Sloonei for.

Wait wtf why is sloon voting on LC?

*keeps reading*

speedchuck's earliest set of posts follow a sort of stream-of-consciousness thread parallel to his continuing read through the thread. This little progression here is cute. I mean that in a good way. The first two would be a creative means of manufacturing fake poop to throw (the poop isn't stated and merely implied to exist). It's similar to what Quin did with the "why will I vote Epi" thing. It's atypical of mafioso game-entry.

Spoiler: show

Uh, you pick two Civs and buddy them so they trust you and don't lynch you. Long game benefit: survival, and more likely to lynch Civs along the way. You intimidate Sloonei out of coming after you. Benefit: One less Civ coming after you; survival; more likely to lynch a Civ along the way.

Wait a minute.

How does Long Con know Mesk, coolonialbob, and Sloonei are civilians?

Oh come on

In the hypothetical that LC is putting forward, of course they'd be likely civs.

This is always a stupid argument

While I agree with the logic of speedchuck's assertion here, it's unclear whether this is meant to reflect any particular way on Epignosis (the one who provided the argument being shat on). Logical gripes in a vacuum don't add much.

Spoiler: show

Mkay

I think the Epi train was formed out of nothing, and from now on, I'm going to pick two peeps not to lynch on D1 of every game and announce it to the world just to prove it. It's a stupid start to a stupid argument filled with stupidity, and the only reason Epi hasn't fought his way out of it is that he doesn't know how to defend against asininity.

(I love you guys <3 But I calls them as I sees them)

Eliminating possibilities for lynch on D1 is not a scumtell, and that's where the whole thing started. Once it became LC vs Epi, the arguments went the same way they usually do. Having caught up, I would posit that both are bull-headed town. And the strongest point against Epi is probably Nutella.

So I'm not going to vote for any of the three. Lemme see what my other options are

This one seems more inclined toward a stance, sort of. It's defensive of Epi in that it is critical of those who opposed him. The specific read on Epi himself remains unclear -- only that he provided a perceived stupid argument and that Epi doesn't know how to "defend against asininity". I cannot believe "asininity" is a word. I thought for sure there'd be a red squiggly coming. I learned something today!

Spoiler: show

(Basically I would think LC is scum but following such a stupid argument if he didn't genuinely see something in Epi is suicidal)

(And that's a town meta read on LC for me)

TMI Alert. My initial reception of speedchuck's handling of LC/Epi was a positive one, but I disagree with myself now.

In a scenario where both Epi and LC are civilians, speedchuck has exonerated one and defended the other based on what I perceive to be pretty dubious premises. High-roading both of them, by essentially suggesting both were being dumb instead of being suspicious, may be suggestive of unique information in speedchuck's possession -- information which could only come from a mafia alignment at this point in the game.

Spoiler: show

Just a friendly reminder that the buddying case on Epi was just the worst

speedchuck really hates this argument. It's just so dumb. And Epi's handling of it was dumb. So much dumb.

I appreciate that speedchuck made a good effort to remain relevant under the restriction he posted with on Day 2. He did participate less than in prior phases, but I think that's understandable. It can't be easy to find inspiration (hi Quin) for slick new poems over and over. He made the most of the posts he made. Decent look.

Spoiler: show

So I wasn't here for dayend, and I moved from Sprityo to Jack to try and save sloonei from a BS lynch. Kinda wish I hadn't now.

And Jack wasn't an infinitely better option.

Cbob is easy for me to see as scum, and I'm glad someone brought it up. I didn't feel like posting much during the day. It all started when Cbob saw my firey post against LC and jumped on the bandwagon against him. But for those that remember, my post train wasn't condemning of LC's alignment, only his reasoning. Cbob wasn't looking for a read, he was looking for an excuse.

In general, it feels like Cbob is trying to hide his lack of scumhunting behind aggression and agreement, depending on the tide of the game. Most of the end of D2 had Cbob waving his vote in sloon's face without substantiating it or arguing it.

"But he seems so confident!"
Yeah, that's what I do as scum. I'd vote there.

Sprit is still somewhat below null for me. The freak-out/leave-thread post didn't really affect that.

Sloon is top town read (and was before the lynch, thanks). DDL is prob good. I waffle on Jack.

Regarding Sig's spec: I usually don't worry about 3rd parties until a kill shows up. Or at least some kind of marks.

The green highlighted portion is another example of general criticism to arguments/cases provided -- in this instance it was the Sloonei near-lynch which was super dumb.

The orange portion is rather yuck at face value.

"The lack of defense cbob is getting is kinda disturbing"

I acknowledge speedchuck was answering my own prompt here, but I'm still not sure this content is going somewhere. All possibilities are discussed, and a semi-conclusion is derived -- without being conclusive. The latter post strikes me as pointless.

"blatant misreprentation"

I don't hate this defense he provided against my grievance. I can understand why a civilian speedchuck would be irritated in this circumstance, and why the suspicion would be reflected.

Spoiler: show

I think my use of misrepresentation was inspired by Epi.

I spent ten minutes or so tone-reading your mafia game and looking for nebulous similarities. Pleh. I'm not clearing you, but I'd probably give you a light town read.

Also wow I played a really different game in Currents.

He forgave me really fast, based only on this meta stuff from the two past mafia-aligned games I provided.

Night 2 rainbow

At this point in the game, I'd say these reads were pretty much with-the-grain across each tier, excepting only Epignosis. It's surprising to see Epignosis, a player speedchuck has spoken of frequently in this post history, stuck in the yellow pile alongside the guy with zero posts.

Spoiler: show

Totally judging you all on your GTH reads of me

So like, one person townreads you. How does that make you feel?

Like I clearly need to play more games, firmly establish my meta.
Or maybe it's their fault. Thus the judging.

A lot of people seem to be put off by self-meta like this, but I tend to be a fan -- at least in the right dosage. In this regard I appreciate speedchuck's willingness to shoo at the bad GTH reads he received based on perceived meta misinterpretation. Some baddies don't even try it. Cool beans.

Big ass reads list

It must be said that this is the most substantive full reads list that exists in this game thread, at least to my memory. I think speedchuck is capable of making this post as a bad guy, but that's really the worst thing I can say about it. I think it's a quality contribution and a good look for him. The reads not labeled "EGH" are assertive for the most part and bear an agreeable tone. The reads labeled "EGH" are understandable. Conclusive reads on everyone is a lot to ask. It should also be noted that a more concrete stance on Epi was taken here, specifically in the negative direction. That at least resolves a long-standing void in this post history.

"Screw you mate"

Candid reception of suspicion stated by dunya. That opening statement is rather curt. I'm not sure a mafia speedchuck would reflect suspicion upon dunya, a player who is so likely to engage him in a long argument, with quite the fervor displayed here.

~~~

This was a very mixed bag. I have discussed multiple grievances and positives here. The worst of it is probably the TMI notion I discussed regarding his reception of LC/Epi. The best might be at the very end there, between the reads compilation and his reaction to dunya's accusation. The TMI notion itself is contingent upon other alignments (LC and Epi), and it moves me less. I lean more town than not on speedchuck -- it's a read which I think calls for a lot of dialogue.

Wifom aside he did seem to be pushing a speed lynch in the following posts...

I wouldn't lynch malakim today.

neither would i.

Immediate thoughts on what I said about speedchuck?

speedchuck stuff
TMI Alert. My initial reception of speedchuck's handling of LC/Epi was a positive one, but I disagree with myself now.

In a scenario where both Epi and LC are civilians, speedchuck has exonerated one and defended the other based on what I perceive to be pretty dubious premises. High-roading both of them, by essentially suggesting both were being dumb instead of being suspicious, may be suggestive of unique information in speedchuck's possession -- information which could only come from a mafia alignment at this point in the game.

Exactly how I feel about that.

Is this the core of your own speedchuck suspicion or is there more?

Then there's this:

Spoiler: show

~ I think speedchuck and malakim handled themselves well in this day phase, particularly toward the end. I'm less thrilled with Long Con.

my gut says that speed and Jay are not aligned. there's little to no benefit from going hard at each other like they did early on.

[Sloonei]

Kyle is arriving at a lot of the same conclusions as me. I'm vain enough to like that.
I think speedchuck's reactions to Jay are more telling than Jay's interrogation of him, if anyone wants to follow up on that for extra credit.

[Quin]

I think the "hi Quin" is an inside joke between them and unrelated to this game. Quin would be able to clarify.

i think he was just slipping that in every time he used a word or phrase Quin doesn't like

I initially thought he was calling me out for lurking but this is it.

[Epignosis]

I feel you, dunya. It's entirely plaisible we all crossed nutella off our lists prematurely. Her behavior before the lynch was what did it for me, though, and not her reaction to it. She seemed to anticipate that a tie would happen. It's possible this was just a gambit that miraculously paid off. But the question of why she's still alive is a good one. I think there are answers thay don't have to involve her being scum, but it's still worth addressing.

If I were bad, I would not have killed nutella. I would have tried to target more dangerous civilian roles. If nutella is Everest, the trait passes down anyway- so it isn't a net gain of anything.

You're forgetting the tie on Jack and Sloonei Day 2. If nutella was Everest, (which we will say is possible for sake of this argument and since you assume she's not being killed because scum think it's not important to kill Everest when K2 inherits their ability, and they could take out other more important roles????----which are never revealed so they never know who they are taking out), Jack would have been clearly lynched vs Sloonei. Since he analyzed that situation as much as Sloonei, I feel he is not Aconcagua or Pico Cristóbal Colón. Plus, 2 empty night kills makes me feel Aconcagua was definitely targeted at night.

Also I completely disagree that taking out Everest and trying to figure out who K2 isn't important. I think they have the most dangerous day roles. Lynch shenanigans are a very important tool for scum. Their priority would be Everest and K2 imo.

I'm not forgetting anything. I stated why I would not have killed nutella. What am I forgetting that would have caused me (as mafia) to have targeted nutella with a kill?

I never said that killing Everest or trying to figure out who K2 was would not be important (for mafia, I assume). You are putting words into my mouth. I said I would not have killed nutella given the data I had. The assumption and follow-up question I saw was that mafia would have killed nutella, so why is she alive? She must be bad, right?!?! My answer to that is that I would not have killed nutella because her role (if Everest) would gain nothing, since the extra vote passes on anyway. Regardless of whether or not I know what role I kill, I would have a chance at killing a more terrifying civilian role than Everest or K2.

And I don't agree with you that Everest and K2 have the most dangerous roles.

[Quin]

Also I am a suspect to you because you believe I bussed Jay. How can you treat my line of suspicion as illegitimate? We're looking for the same thing; it's just our results that are different.

No. You're a suspect to me because

1) I believe Jimmy and Dom/Mal are w/w and you voted to save Dom/Mal. Worse, you did so with no reasoning or conviction.

2) You voted Wilgy with all my other suspects instead of Jimmy or Speed, which no explanation, creating a scenario where the only town read of mine between the three of them was more likely to be lynched as of an hour before EOD.

3) You keep handwaiving the incredibly strong cases against Mal (obviously saved by Jimmy) and Quin (obviously trying to save Mal and then Jimmy and refuses to say why).


I don't actually care one way or another about your vote for Jimmy. If you hadn't voted or said anything at all, the outcome would be the same.

You sure like to push this narrative, but we all know that you're just lazy.

[Epignosis]

Sloonei's writing is delightful. A+

[Epignosis]

If you believe nutella is bad, explain how she survived Day 1. I don't want to hear about why she's alive now, or what her take on JJJ was. If you believe she is bad, show me mechanically how she survived Day 1.

[dunya]

And I don't agree with you that Everest and K2 have the most dangerous roles.

day roles. They have the most important day roles (I'm saying Everest and K2 by succession). Who's a more terrifying and a constant threat to mafia during the lynch phases?

Sure, didn't call it not important but you literally said "so it isn't a net gain of anything." Which basically means you don't think it's a priority. I think it's a priority.

[Kylemii]

That's an inference. Not information.

if you're good enough at figuring shit out, a quality set of inferences is as good as proven information. Dilemmas become facts when one side of the dilemma gets disproved. If your inferences contradict each other you know you fucked something up along the way.

i.e. either bigfoot is real and owes me money, or bigfoot isn't real and mothman exists
bigfoot can't owe anything to anyone cus he is above capitalism

under the outlined parameters of this hypothetical scenario it can be safely assumed that mothman exists since the only universe where bigfoot can exist is one where he owes me money.

I would know this with absolute certainty?

No. No, I would not. Why?

Your eldest is Edgar Winter.

*gross man deleted*

The eye color thing is a metaphor. 0: for the sake of the comparison you have to assume the only eye colors are blue green and brown, just like the only alignments in this game are small mountain, big mountain, and alien mountain.

If you assume there are other teams outside of the ones we know exist then we wouldn't get anywhere because so many statements would become invalid and we'd get stuff like "sure Epignosis seems civ but what if he's a part of a secret mafia team that isn't listed anywhere?"

[Kylemii]

...... sorry i just really like symbolic logic

[dunya]

If you believe nutella is bad, explain how she survived Day 1. I don't want to hear about why she's alive now, or what her take on JJJ was. If you believe she is bad, show me mechanically how she survived Day 1.

anyone else who voted Long Con was Everest for starters: Elohcin, colonialbob, Sloonei, Kylemii

nutella voted for self preservation, the other 4 voted because out of conviction Long Con is scum and not nutella.

[dunya]

I'm not saying nutella is 100% scum. I'm saying I think people were way too quick to assume she was and that is dangerous and something that leads to a possibly sticky Ly-Lo situation further down the road and if she breezes through the game, who will suspect her at the eleventh hour?

I still want to understand her shifty stances from attacking various players to swiftly changing to Jay without a solid case. I don't like that.

[dunya]

I'm not saying nutella is 100% scum. I'm saying I think people were way too quick to assume she was and that is dangerous and something that leads to a possibly sticky Ly-Lo situation further down the road and if she breezes through the game, who will suspect her at the eleventh hour?

I still want to understand her shifty stances from attacking various players to swiftly changing to Jay without a solid case. I don't like that.

to assume she was cleared*

[Sloonei]

Sloonei's writing is delightful. A+

This is more important to me than any grade I ever received in school.

[Quin]

Long Con
5
29%
Voters: Elohcin, colonialbob, nutella, Sloonei, Kylemii

nutella
6
35%
Voters: sprityo, speedchuck, Jackofhearts2005, Long Con, Quin, Dragon D. Luffy

Day 1 ties ended in a no lynch, Marmot said as much. If one of the LC voters is Everest, the tie is doable. The other secret roles are also doable but it's unlikely they involve vote manipulation since there are 3 such roles publicly shown.

[Sloonei]

If you believe nutella is bad, explain how she survived Day 1. I don't want to hear about why she's alive now, or what her take on JJJ was. If you believe she is bad, show me mechanically how she survived Day 1.

anyone else who voted Long Con was Everest for starters: Elohcin, colonialbob, Sloonei, Kylemii

nutella voted for self preservation, the other 4 voted because out of conviction Long Con is scum and not nutella.

I think I recall Kyle voting at the last minute out of sympathy for nutella.

I support healthy skepticism against nutella but I'm not inclined to remove the town read I have on her.

[Quin]

Long Con
5
29%
Voters: Elohcin, colonialbob, nutella, Sloonei, Kylemii

nutella
6
35%
Voters: sprityo, speedchuck, Jackofhearts2005, Long Con, Quin, Dragon D. Luffy

Day 1 ties ended in a no lynch, Marmot said as much. If one of the LC voters is Everest, the tie is doable. The other secret roles are also doable but it's unlikely they involve vote manipulation since there are 3 such roles publicly shown.

lynch survival role too ^

[dunya]

If you believe nutella is bad, explain how she survived Day 1. I don't want to hear about why she's alive now, or what her take on JJJ was. If you believe she is bad, show me mechanically how she survived Day 1.

anyone else who voted Long Con was Everest for starters: Elohcin, colonialbob, Sloonei, Kylemii

nutella voted for self preservation, the other 4 voted because out of conviction Long Con is scum and not nutella.

I think I recall Kyle voting at the last minute out of sympathy for nutella.

I support healthy skepticism against nutella but I'm not inclined to remove the town read I have on her.

interesting.

What was the main case against nutella day 1. I don't remember right now other posters, only some of her defenses. Why were 6 people ready to lynch her?

[Kylemii]

Kyle is arriving at a lot of the same conclusions as me. I'm vain enough to like that.
I think speedchuck's reactions to Jay are more telling than Jay's interrogation of him, if anyone wants to follow up on that for extra credit.

Sloonei's writing is delightful. A+

Oh no.... Has mafia secretly just been an online class disguised as a nerdy internet game this whole time?

[Sloonei]

If you believe nutella is bad, explain how she survived Day 1. I don't want to hear about why she's alive now, or what her take on JJJ was. If you believe she is bad, show me mechanically how she survived Day 1.

anyone else who voted Long Con was Everest for starters: Elohcin, colonialbob, Sloonei, Kylemii

nutella voted for self preservation, the other 4 voted because out of conviction Long Con is scum and not nutella.

I think I recall Kyle voting at the last minute out of sympathy for nutella.

I support healthy skepticism against nutella but I'm not inclined to remove the town read I have on her.

interesting.

What was the main case against nutella day 1. I don't remember right now other posters, only some of her defenses. Why were 6 people ready to lynch her?

I mainly just remember Jack making the case that her play was lazy and off-meta. I'm sure there was more, but that's what sticks out to me. Day 1 was as hectic as Days 2-4, so there wasn't a lot of solid stuff to go off of.

[Sloonei]

Kyle is arriving at a lot of the same conclusions as me. I'm vain enough to like that.
I think speedchuck's reactions to Jay are more telling than Jay's interrogation of him, if anyone wants to follow up on that for extra credit.

Sloonei's writing is delightful. A+

Oh no.... Has mafia secretly just been an online class disguised as a nerdy internet game this whole time?

I mean, yeah.

[Kylemii]

Kyle is arriving at a lot of the same conclusions as me. I'm vain enough to like that.
I think speedchuck's reactions to Jay are more telling than Jay's interrogation of him, if anyone wants to follow up on that for extra credit.

Sloonei's writing is delightful. A+

Oh no.... Has mafia secretly just been an online class disguised as a nerdy internet game this whole time?

I mean, yeah.

Well, shucks.

[Kylemii]

I've still got more time, can you think of any other significant players I should dig through Jay's puke about?

[dunya]

Kyle is arriving at a lot of the same conclusions as me. I'm vain enough to like that.
I think speedchuck's reactions to Jay are more telling than Jay's interrogation of him, if anyone wants to follow up on that for extra credit.

Sloonei's writing is delightful. A+

Oh no.... Has mafia secretly just been an online class disguised as a nerdy internet game this whole time?

I mean, yeah.

Well, shucks.

I think I failed the English part.

[Sloonei]

I've still got more time, can you think of any other significant players I should dig through Jay's puke about?

what do you feel are the most pertinent questions you have after reviewing the players you've been looking at?

[Epignosis]

That's an inference. Not information.

if you're good enough at figuring shit out, a quality set of inferences is as good as proven information.

In the context of Mafia, that's false. Proven information is indisputable. "Figuring shit out" never is. If you have figured out that I'm bad 100%, and I get lynched, and it's proven that I'm not bad, were you still right?

Dilemmas become facts when one side of the dilemma gets disproved. If your inferences contradict each other you know you fucked something up along the way.

"Dilemmas become facts?"

What the hell are you talking about? Do you know what a dilemma is?

A dilemma involves two choices, in which both choices have one or more undesirable consequences.

i.e. either bigfoot is real and owes me money, or bigfoot isn't real and mothman exists
bigfoot can't owe anything to anyone cus he is above capitalism

under the outlined parameters of this hypothetical scenario it can be safely assumed that mothman exists since the only universe where bigfoot can exist is one where he owes me money.

I'm glad I'm not paying your college tuition.

I would know this with absolute certainty?

No. No, I would not. Why?

Your eldest is Edgar Winter.

*gross man deleted*

The eye color thing is a metaphor. 0: for the sake of the comparison you have to assume the only eye colors are blue green and brown, just like the only alignments in this game are small mountain, big mountain, and alien mountain.

If you assume there are other teams outside of the ones we know exist then we wouldn't get anywhere because so many statements would become invalid and we'd get stuff like "sure Epignosis seems civ but what if he's a part of a secret mafia team that isn't listed anywhere?"

Edgar Winter isn't gross. That's a rather rude thing to say about an albino and famous musician. You may have heard his work:



The eye color "metaphor" wasn't a metaphor. It was an analogy. And it was a lousy one.

I am not assuming there are only three eye colors because there aren't. There are three alignments in this, and I'm not talking about a secret mafia faction.

Nobody has INFORMED me that three people have three different alignments (which is what your eye color analogy requires). Nobody has informed anyone of that.

[Epignosis]

If you believe nutella is bad, explain how she survived Day 1. I don't want to hear about why she's alive now, or what her take on JJJ was. If you believe she is bad, show me mechanically how she survived Day 1.

anyone else who voted Long Con was Everest for starters: Elohcin, colonialbob, Sloonei, Kylemii

nutella voted for self preservation, the other 4 voted because out of conviction Long Con is scum and not nutella.

Very well. Did nutella know she wasn't going to be lynched? If not, why not?

[Kylemii]

I've still got more time, can you think of any other significant players I should dig through Jay's puke about?

what do you feel are the most pertinent questions you have after reviewing the players you've been looking at?

pertinent questions...... hmm...

they're not exactly questions but I think it would be pertinent to go back and look closer into the context of Jay's views and interactions with certain players when they changed. Examine why they might have changed at that time while looking through the lens of "Jay is a bad boy"

[Elohcin]

I just went from 1 simple order this week to four orders (3 of them pretty elaborate) so I'm a little overwhelmed but thankful for such work so close to Christmas.

I just realized that you probably actually do make cakes.

Why yes. Yes, I do. www.facebook.com/LittleMissCakesNC

Link doesn't work

https://www.facebook.com/LittleMissCakesNC/

I am amazed. You are superbly talented!

Thanks! . It's always good to love your job.

[Elohcin]

Kyle is arriving at a lot of the same conclusions as me. I'm vain enough to like that.
I think speedchuck's reactions to Jay are more telling than Jay's interrogation of him, if anyone wants to follow up on that for extra credit.

Sloonei's writing is delightful. A+

Oh no.... Has mafia secretly just been an online class disguised as a nerdy internet game this whole time?

That's what it is for me. Gotta associate with you nerds intellectuals so my mommy brain doesn't turn to mush.

[Epignosis]

I've been waiting for LC to come in and tell me I threw 3J under the bus. Alas, I am disappointed.

I want to know why LC voted against 3J Day 3:

JaggedJimmyJa
3
18%
Voters: Epignosis, nutella, Long Con

then voted speedchuck Day 4:

speedchuck
3
17%
Voters: Elohcin, Long Con, malakim2099

++++

LC keeps saying he suspects me, but he has never followed through on that belief.

Well, with Jack, it started with his mirroring of my stance in the Epignosis Day 1 stuff, and he's just seemed super-scummy to me in, frankly, a non-stop way. I haven't said much because there has been plenty of suspicion on Jack, which I seriously approve of.

Epignosis, well, on one hand he's being impossibly contrary, which is just his nature, but on the other hand I can't shake the feeling that he and Jack are teammates. Little interactions, too-ironic-to-not-believe faketeaming, just the way they played both sides on me during Day 1. Epignosis is notoriously inscrutable, but gun to head I still suspect him.

And speedchuck... I totally forget why, but I know he's my third of Top 3 Suspects. I'll post this, and get back to you on speedy.

He has Jack as bad, me as his teammate, and then...ends up voting speedchuck after "totally forget[ing]" why.

If speedchuck is in your top three suspects, to the extent that you would ultimately vote for him, you should know off the top of your head why you think he's bad.

speedchuck stuff
TMI Alert. My initial reception of speedchuck's handling of LC/Epi was a positive one, but I disagree with myself now.

In a scenario where both Epi and LC are civilians, speedchuck has exonerated one and defended the other based on what I perceive to be pretty dubious premises. High-roading both of them, by essentially suggesting both were being dumb instead of being suspicious, may be suggestive of unique information in speedchuck's possession -- information which could only come from a mafia alignment at this point in the game.

Exactly how I feel about that.

Exactly how he feels about that.

LC has done little more than hound me over the stupidest shit, and here he is agreeing with mafia 3J about speedchuck in a scenario where both of us are civilians.

Fuck outta here.

[Kylemii]

That's an inference. Not information.

if you're good enough at figuring shit out, a quality set of inferences is as good as proven information.

In the context of Mafia, that's false. Proven information is indisputable. "Figuring shit out" never is. If you have figured out that I'm bad 100%, and I get lynched, and it's proven that I'm not bad, were you still right?

If there was ever a chance that someone wasn't bad then you'd never assume a 100% chance. Your described situation would never happen.

Dilemmas become facts when one side of the dilemma gets disproved. If your inferences contradict each other you know you fucked something up along the way.

"Dilemmas become facts?"

What the hell are you talking about? Do you know what a dilemma is?

A dilemma involves two choices, in which both choices have one or more undesirable consequences.

Dilemma was the wrong word. I guess the technical term is logical conjunction.

i.e. either bigfoot is real and owes me money, or bigfoot isn't real and mothman exists
bigfoot can't owe anything to anyone cus he is above capitalism

under the outlined parameters of this hypothetical scenario it can be safely assumed that mothman exists since the only universe where bigfoot can exist is one where he owes me money.

I'm glad I'm not paying your college tuition.

maybe you could pay for your own college tuition and take a symbolic logic class so you don't have to keep bugging me about this

I would know this with absolute certainty?

No. No, I would not. Why?

Your eldest is Edgar Winter.

*gross man deleted*

The eye color thing is a metaphor. 0: for the sake of the comparison you have to assume the only eye colors are blue green and brown, just like the only alignments in this game are small mountain, big mountain, and alien mountain.

If you assume there are other teams outside of the ones we know exist then we wouldn't get anywhere because so many statements would become invalid and we'd get stuff like "sure Epignosis seems civ but what if he's a part of a secret mafia team that isn't listed anywhere?"

Edgar Winter isn't gross. That's a rather rude thing to say about an albino and famous musician. You may have heard his work:

he's not gross cus he's albino he's gross because he's standing alone in a dark room staring at the camera. it's a bad photograph epig.

The eye color "metaphor" wasn't a metaphor. It was an analogy. And it was a lousy one.

stop using semantics to support arguments.

I am not assuming there are only three eye colors because there aren't. There are three alignments in this, and I'm not talking about a secret mafia faction.

Nobody has INFORMED me that three people have three different alignments (which is what your eye color analogy requires). Nobody has informed anyone of that.

Epignosis, you're being needlessly difficult about this and while I'm enjoying talking with you about it I don't see it as being actually relevant to moving the game forward in any way. Its not my job to teach you basic symbolic logic.

[Elohcin]

Eloh, what is your opinion on Jack?

TBQH, he's not even really been on my radar. I would need to go through and read him more. Jay said he was full of shit. Could be distancing, but who knows. Jay's gameplay was super odd for him.

[Kylemii]

[mention]Epignosis[/mention]

these are the basics

[Epignosis]

Epignosis, you're being needlessly difficult about this and while I'm enjoying talking with you about it I don't see it as being actually relevant to moving the game forward in any way. Its not my job to teach you basic symbolic logic.

Yet you keep trying.

I suspect you. And I'm not interested in "symbolic logic." I am interested in how you showed no interest in lynching 3J until it became a "thing" again.

You or LC will get my vote as it stands tomorrow.

[Epignosis]

@Epignosis

these are the basics

No thanks. Your examples showed me all I need to know regarding the credibility of that link.

[nutella]

Dunya, you're making a bit of a mess with all that tinfoil, lol. It's good that you have some healthy skepticism and are actually thinking about me, but thinking I'm Jay's teammate is pretty nuts at this point, and I think you might have missed some stuff I said on Day 1 as well. I expressed that I knew the lynch was going to be a tie at a certain point, and I heavily hinted a second time which caused Kyle to change his vote. I've done pretty much everything but explicitly out myself, but I think several people picked up on it.

As for the Jack/Sloonei poll, you are forgetting about Chimborazo. I posted a couple of theories on what happened that day-- go back and read my posts from after the no-lynch.

As for not being nightkilled, I'm not too surprised honestly. When someone is more or less confirmed/generally accepted town, mafia often leave them be for a while because they are likely to be protected or because they don't want to do what is expected and maybe go for another common town read (i.e. Spacedaisy) and, as Epi pointed out, probably someone with an ability they can and want to eliminate (i.e. Spacedaisy). Plus if I'm naming them correctly as suspects they are less likely to kill me right away -- and actually I intentionally the "in case I die/I'm afraid I might die" bit in the hope that it would actually make them less inclined to kill me.

Plus I just don't understand how you can think I was bussing Jay, lol. I was the first to vote for him on both day 3 and day 4. I got the suspicion of him rolling toward the end of day 3 (and I did call it a symbolic vote at first because I thought it was too late in the day and didn't expect people to join onto him as a possible CFD against dom/mesk but I was pleased when some people did). And maybe you're right that I never really explicitly stated much reason to suspect him, but that's because once the suspicion got going on him the Mesk lynch craziness had happened and I felt like it was more or less obvious from then on. But I started to really suspect him during that lynch, and even though I think I GTHed him good in his GTH exercise, I had been already starting to question him because he hadn't been playing like his normal self -- DDL's post where he compared Jay's and Sloonei's styles really solidified that for me, as did Jay's defeat-y post at the beginning of D4.

[nutella]

I'm still waffling quite a bit on Bob... Sloonei's confidence really encourages me but little things keep giving me pause. I am very interested in looking into LC or Kyle as possible Jay buddies.