Fiddler on the Roof Mafia

[MacDougall]

I have changed my mind on Sloonei. He seems civ.

[MacDougall]

New tactic.

I am going to divide the player list into 3. Group 1 are the players who have provided me with ample opportunity to formulate a read. Group 2 have given some. Group 3 might as well be absent for the amount of insight I am able to glean. I will do a rainbow list per group.

Group 1 - Give the most credence to these reads.

Speed
Sloonei
Epi
JJJ

Kylemii

Group 2 - Give some credence to these reads.

FZ
Dyslexicon
Nutella

Group 3 - Pay no mind sunshine.

LC
Lorab
Novaselinenever
Dave
Daisy
Wilgy
Marmot

Updated, I have moved Dizzy to green because Dizzy is everything. Don't lynch Dizzy.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I agree with your green reads Mac, save perhaps LC. I don't have much of a read there. What's your inspiration?

[DrWilgy]

Wilgy, why are all your ideas so bad?

Hazelnut! There's a difference between bad and dirty!

[MacDougall]

I agree with your green reads Mac, save perhaps LC. I don't have much of a read there. What's your inspiration?

I said pay no mind sunshine. They are more or less all gut reads.

[MacDougall]

If I may make an observation, regarding the setup:

Tevye can get BTSC with his daughters. In doing so, he can confirm them town to himself. So that's neat.

However, if he doesn't search for them, the town gains a cop in the match-maker. Match-maker can search for BTSC, which would (if Tevye doesn't submit actions) only be held by the mafia.

We trade off a BTSC-finder and a town searcher/btsc/lover thing for a cop. Does anyone think this is a good idea?

I... don't agree. Civvie btsc can be an incredibly powerful tool when both players are active, and to enact your plan would mean purposefully not using a doctor, which comes with it's own problems. the matchmakers results should already be helpful so long as that player takes their results with a grain of salt and considers contextual information. it's not worth losing two powerful resources to increase the power of one.

I find it hard to imagine that a Mafia player would even chime in on a subject that is so sensitive, especially with such a perspective... Town points for Kyle.

[Kylemii]

Is there anything to the case on epi beyond his attitude towards Sloonei and Jay

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Do people actually read all the roles before games even start?

I read DrWilgy's role. :3

Marmot/Wilgy WIFOM parade, sequel to the smash hit Nanman of ROTTK?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Is there anything to the case on epi beyond his attitude towards Sloonei and Jay

Read the reasons provided by LoRab, FZ, and nutella and share your thoughts. Their ISOs are much shorter than mine.

[Sloonei]

why I am voting for Kylemii:

The basis of my suspicion was laid out inarticulately in this post. I had noticed on Day 0 that Kyle responded to an obvious poo-fling pretty severely, with a strong defense that turned into lashing out against the player responsible for the dookie (Jay). I felt like I could go through each of Kyle's posts in this episode and assign an adjective to his posture, and none of them made me feel good about him. To elaborate on my feelings toward each of those posts:

"Indignant." Kyle's initial response to Jay claiming to have identified a scum tell on him is immediate and passionate dismissal: "that's actually 100% false", with some flavorful token townie assurance. Then this, for which he has previously been called out for:

second of all you've never even seen me play as mafia before, the only player in recent history who has is dunya and even then it was just one game under unique circumstances, not enough to build correlation from

If the notion of Jay having a tell on Kyle is 100% false, as is the premise of this entire post, then I'm not sure why it's necessary for Kyle to entertain the notion of Jay's meta read on him in this context. I think Long Con was correct to point this out earlier. It's true that the first part of Kyle's post covers what the natural townie instinct should cover. The second part feels unnecessary from a civilian perspective, and reading it through the lens of scum-huntin' I can see it as a betrayal of Kyle's own guilt coming out in an impassioned defense.

"Incredulous & Indignant." Incredulous is my favorite scum-hunting adjective. I feel like I accuse somebody of it every game, and I'm starting to feel like the results of this accusation are favorable. I dunno though, I haven't actually done the math. But Kyle's incredulity is on full display in a couple of early posts, starting here.

okay so you think a 48 hour long game with teens who kept being terrible dicks to each other is going to be indicative of how I play in a real game as mafia?

we're following right along from the train of thought in the previous post. Here Kyle is wholly dismissive of the notion that anyone can possibly have a meta read on his scum game. There simply is no room for the consideration in Kyle's worldview. what bothers me about this, given the context, is that there appears to be no effort on Kyle's part to understand what the accusation is that's being brought against him. He just sees an accusation and launches into full denial of it. I'm still getting to know Kyle as a player, so my understanding of his style is not fully refined, but I think he's generally the type of player who'd want to figure out what a person's read of him is before he begins arguing with them about it. That never happened here.

"Negative." Pretty self-explanatory. He negates the first semblance of a real accusation against him (the notion of a parallel between this game and a previous scum game elsewhere). This post is fine in itself; what else is kyle supposed to say? But in the context of the conversation, I don't love it. To be clear, I think there is absolutely no substance to Jay's prods of Kyle in this whole exchange, and that is by design. All the substance is being provided by Kyle. Jay is just nudging him and seeing where he goes. So far it's gone from "There's no way you could think I'm bad because you've never seen me as bad", to "Okay you've seen me be bad once, but that game didn't count", to "There's nothing to draw on here from that game." All of this backtracking was triggered by a completely hollow accusation.

i actually kinda assumed you were lying for standard day zero jay-prod purposes?

This was the turn in the conversation that I really didn't like, and still do not. If this is what Kyle assumed, then why did he launch so quickly into defense mode? why was it his objective to negate and dismiss a prod which he presumed to be disingenuous, rather than simply observing that it was disingenuous? This might be my least favorite post in the thread.

I really don't recognise the parallel. I don't even know for sure if there is one without looking. In this game I've comfortably talked about musicals with people I already know, and in that game (I think?) I spent the first several of my posts trying to get to know the players on that site. I'm like 60% sure Jay is just making things up to prod for reactions but if not then he's wrong and his basis is flawed. If there really is a parallel Jay sees then it's 100% just a coincidence and not caused by alignment-bias.

Or maybe this is my least favorite post. Those first two sentences imply that there might actually be a parallel. If there's a parallel, it means Kyle is scum again here, does it not? I also like how he defends himself by saying he's been "comfortable" in the realm of off-topic banter to start the game. First, because I don't care for a player describing themself as "comfortable", and second because it's not like the discussion of musicals is indicative of a town kyle anyway. I get that he's just observing the differences between his game here and the other game elsewhere, but the comparison he draws does nothing to inspire a town read of him right now. He also repeats his presumption that Jay is being less than sincere, which still complicates this whole conversation from my perspective.

Is that it? My next few posts in that thread were to make excuses for being late to the thread and to call people out for being shitty and rude to each other, and to ask people about their usual meta. I haven't done any of those things so it has to be the "let's go" right? :-?

"This is the only reason anyone could possibly have to be suspicious of me and it's bogus and any other argument you could make definitely doesn't apply, so it must be this, but look how inefficient it is."

I'll jump ahead to the post I labeled "obtuse":

What I'm saying that if I do end up getting lynched for Jay's 'tell' then Jay has to be held accountable. He can't just say something like "oh well it didn't work this time but I'm going to keep what it was a secret in case it's a tell in the future. " and shrug it off.

If his tactic here causes me to die then I want his reasoning to be thoroughly checked into.

I've made this point already, but this an incredibly shortsighted view of the standard Day 1 proceedings of any mafia game, especially if Kyle has already acknowledged that Jay was just doing his regular early game prodding business. In no game that's ever been played has a player ever been lynched because somebody baselessly said "I know what your tell is" and then everybody else just followed along blindly. If Kyle is to be lynched today, it's because of the events which were to ensue from that generative point. This is just fundamental mafia gameplay. And also to emphasize that JaggedJimmyJay should be scrutinized and held accountable for his actions is like saying a high school English class should probably read Romeo & Juliet at some point. It's going to happen regardless. Making a point of it achieves nothing.

Also, Kyle responded to my post against him by labeling it "unhelpful". I didn't care for that label, and I didn'tlike his reasoning for giving it:

because it was unhelpful

all you did was sharpen the focus on something that was already being focused on

is that value added?

"Sharpen the focus on something that was already being focused on." Yuck. I was identifying grounds for a suspicion. Of course there's value added. That's Mafia 101. Am I supposed to just turn a blind eye to my biggest suspect in the thread because somebody else already suspects them? He would go on to say a bunch of stuff about how everything I'd said had already been covered, but I see no evidence anywhere of this being true.
I think Kyle is full of bologna this game. His posts don't make any consistent sense in my view. He's also resisted giving a read on me in this game, which I feel uneasy with. This post was not supposed to be so massive, and I only elaborated on a bunch of points I've already made. I'll do some more comprehensive work now.

[nutella]

Do people actually read all the roles before games even start?

I read DrWilgy's role. :3

Marmot/Wilgy WIFOM parade, sequel to the smash hit Nanman of ROTTK?

Classic.

[Kylemii]

Is there anything to the case on epi beyond his attitude towards Sloonei and Jay

Read the reasons provided by LoRab, FZ, and nutella and share your thoughts. Their ISOs are much shorter than mine.

I don't have the built in iso links cus I play on mobile. :[

[MacDougall]

Group 1 - Give the most credence to these reads.

Speed
Sloonei
Epi
Kylemii
JJJ

Group 2 - Give some credence to these reads.

FZ
Dyslexicon
Nutella

Group 3 - Pay no mind sunshine.

LC
Lorab
Novaselinenever
Dave
Daisy
Wilgy
Marmot


Updated to upgrade Kylemii. I admit I never really had much of a read on him to begin with I was just prodding. Having sat down and read his posts I can't really see much scum motivation.

I think it's time to consider that there are quite a lot of scum in group 3.

[DrWilgy]

Do people actually read all the roles before games even start?

I read DrWilgy's role. :3

Marmot/Wilgy WIFOM parade, sequel to the smash hit Nanman of ROTTK?

Classic.

This fuckers just trying to take me down with him.

[MacDougall]

Thank you for taking the time to make such a detailed analysis of Kylemii Sloonei.

Can you please explain a potential Mafia motivation in this post?

If I may make an observation, regarding the setup:

Tevye can get BTSC with his daughters. In doing so, he can confirm them town to himself. So that's neat.

However, if he doesn't search for them, the town gains a cop in the match-maker. Match-maker can search for BTSC, which would (if Tevye doesn't submit actions) only be held by the mafia.

We trade off a BTSC-finder and a town searcher/btsc/lover thing for a cop. Does anyone think this is a good idea?

I... don't agree. Civvie btsc can be an incredibly powerful tool when both players are active, and to enact your plan would mean purposefully not using a doctor, which comes with it's own problems. the matchmakers results should already be helpful so long as that player takes their results with a grain of salt and considers contextual information. it's not worth losing two powerful resources to increase the power of one.

I find it hard to imagine that a Mafia player would even chime in on a subject that is so sensitive, especially with such a perspective... Town points for Kyle.

[MacDougall]

Wilgy and Marmot are totally cruising making jokes while a game is going on around them. Let's lynch one of them.

[DrWilgy]

Wilgy and Marmot are totally cruising making jokes while a game is going on around them. Let's lynch one of them.

Kill Marmot not me. I'll even start the wagon.

[Kylemii]

gth read on Sloonei is civ now. I don't think a mafia Sloonei would put so much effort into a case he would know is wrong, barring some truly buckwild wifom.

[DrWilgy]

gth read on Sloonei is civ now. I don't think a mafia Sloonei would put so much effort into a case he would know is wrong, barring some truly buckwild wifom.

Do you know what a mafia sloonbeard looks like?

[Kylemii]

There simply is no room for the consideration in Kyle's worldview. what bothers me about this, given the context, is that there appears to be no effort on Kyle's part to understand what the accusation is that's being brought against him. He just sees an accusation and launches into full denial of it. I'm still getting to know Kyle as a player,

that's wrong, I went back to the sc2 mafia forum to try and figure out what the might have thought was a tell. The only thing that made sense was "let's go" cus it was the only consistency.

you read the post and labelled it "incredulous"

[nutella]

Wilgy and Marmot are totally cruising making jokes while a game is going on around them. Let's lynch one of them.

I think wilgy is town. He's throwing around zany/original shit, playing the ol' fast-and-loose game, things like suggesting lynching Dizzy right after a bunch of people named dizzy as a town read. Then again, he is the king of wifom mountain, so

Marmot could be bad.

[MacDougall]

gth read on Sloonei is civ now. I don't think a mafia Sloonei would put so much effort into a case he would know is wrong, barring some truly buckwild wifom.

Do you know what a mafia sloonbeard looks like?

He is mafia so infrequently it's hard to know but when we started playing (like 6 fucking years ago) he drew scum more often than not in the first 10 or so games we played and he tended to struggle a bit more as Mafia than he does as a civ. I'd say that the best way to play Sloonei is just to treat him by the book.

[MacDougall]

I kind of hate it when random late day candidates pop up and get wagoned but fuck it let's lynch Marmot.

[MacDougall]

Case #1 - Can you unequivocally say he is playing civ? What's he done of benefit to the civ cause?
Case #2 - His vote is on Dizzy ... wtf
Case #3 - He has avoided all the major points of discussion

[Kylemii]

This was the turn in the conversation that I really didn't like, and still do not. If this is what Kyle assumed, then why did he launch so quickly into defense mode? why was it his objective to negate and dismiss a prod which he presumed to be disingenuous, rather than simply observing that it was disingenuous? This might be my least favorite post in the thread.

this implies that i should ever ignore lies being told about me and assume the liar must have good intentions. i disagree with that on principle based on the fact that this is mafia? lies and innaccurate statements should always be called out.

[Kylemii]

Or maybe this is my least favorite post. Those first two sentences imply that there might actually be a parallel. If there's a parallel, it means Kyle is scum again here, does it not?

literally no? "hey Sloonei you had a blues clues avatar in ____ mafia game where you were mafia and you have one here too so you must be mafia" is an example of what you said. Correlation doesn't imply causation.

[MacDougall]

Can we move on from Epi, Jay, Kyle, Sloonei and focus on someone else. Like Marmot?

[Sloonei]

gth read on Sloonei is civ now. I don't think a mafia Sloonei would put so much effort into a case he would know is wrong, barring some truly buckwild wifom.

Yes I would. I would have to do that in order to appear town. I don't believe this read.

[Kylemii]

Is that it? My next few posts in that thread were to make excuses for being late to the thread and to call people out for being shitty and rude to each other, and to ask people about their usual meta. I haven't done any of those things so it has to be the "let's go" right? :-?

"This is the only reason anyone could possibly have to be suspicious of me and it's bogus and any other argument you could make definitely doesn't apply, so it must be this, but look how inefficient it is."

I'll jump ahead to the post I labeled "obtuse":

I was trying to understand what I thought Jay's point of view might be, which is literally something you complained about me not doing earlier in this very long short story.

[Epignosis]

I'm going to lodge a veto request of the Epignosis lynch on the following grounds;

a) The primary case against him as been made by JJJ who is the most followable player in the game
b) I don't agree with his arguments
c) If JJJ is Mafia then losing Epignosis's tendency to keep him accountable by revelling in being contrarian feels tantamount to just losing the game

MacDougall cares about the roof.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Sloonei, I've scoured over your Kyle case and I continue to get an impression that you are lost in a tunnel. How about this:

If Kyle was a civilian, how do you think he would have handled my fake tell?

[Sloonei]

There simply is no room for the consideration in Kyle's worldview. what bothers me about this, given the context, is that there appears to be no effort on Kyle's part to understand what the accusation is that's being brought against him. He just sees an accusation and launches into full denial of it. I'm still getting to know Kyle as a player,

that's wrong, I went back to the sc2 mafia forum to try and figure out what the might have thought was a tell. The only thing that made sense was "let's go" cus it was the only consistency.

you read the post and labelled it "incredulous"

Yes I did. Because you were responding to a case that didn't exist as if it had to be false. whether or not you went back to investigate your own past game is irrelevant to me. what's "incredulous" about all of this is that you're not allowing the case to be made against you before you deny it. You're just denying it off the bat.

[Epignosis]

Neither Epig or Kyle are voting each other - which is peculiar kind of. I guess they will if things stay the same?

I'll either let my vote stay or switch ro LoRab cause idfk. And I need to sleep very soon.

I believe Kyle is a civilian.

I'm not voting for him for that reason. I believe the reciprocal is true.

False dilemmas are the mafia's playpen. And their playpen doesn't even have a fucking roof.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm going to lodge a veto request of the Epignosis lynch on the following grounds;

a) The primary case against him as been made by JJJ who is the most followable player in the game
b) I don't agree with his arguments
c) If JJJ is Mafia then losing Epignosis's tendency to keep him accountable by revelling in being contrarian feels tantamount to just losing the game

MacDougall cares about the roof.

There's a vote on LoRab. Is that a lynch you want?

[Kylemii]

I changed my mind, Sloonei your case is really bad. It's tunnel-y and it's not even internally consistent. It's build on hypotheticals ways that you think a town Kyle should react to situations that don't apply in reality because I don't fit into your cookie cutter viewpoint of what I should be like.

[Sloonei]

Sloonei, I've scoured over your Kyle case and I continue to get an impression that you are lost in a tunnel. How about this:

If Kyle was a civilian, how do you think he would have handled my fake tell?

By instigating a conversation with you about your read of him. It's what he did when I put a vote on him early in Mortal Kombat. Granted, his alignment is not currently known in that game, but his behavior there is more in line with what I'd expect from town kyle.

[Sloonei]

I changed my mind, Sloonei your case is really bad. It's tunnel-y and it's not even internally consistent. It's build on hypotheticals ways that you think a town Kyle should react to situations that don't apply in reality because I don't fit into your cookie cutter viewpoint of what I should be like.

Is my effort irrelevant now?

[MacDougall]

Everyone please reply to this.

If one of Marmot or Wilgy were to be lynched today, who would you prefer it be?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Sloonei, I've scoured over your Kyle case and I continue to get an impression that you are lost in a tunnel. How about this:

If Kyle was a civilian, how do you think he would have handled my fake tell?

By instigating a conversation with you about your read of him. It's what he did when I put a vote on him early in Mortal Kombat. Granted, his alignment is not currently known in that game, but his behavior there is more in line with what I'd expect from town kyle.

Do you think that I left the door open for a conversation?

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Everyone please reply to this.

If one of Marmot or Wilgy were to be lynched today, who would you prefer it be?

Marmot.

[Epignosis]

My FZ read leans civilian, and I am influenced by the 2015 GOC when I was faced with a crapload of errant suspicion and she was one of the few contrary voices who saw the civilian in me. There's at least some parallel here.

What in the hell does that have to do with now? It's 2018.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

My FZ read leans civilian, and I am influenced by the 2015 GOC when I was faced with a crapload of errant suspicion and she was one of the few contrary voices who saw the civilian in me. There's at least some parallel here.

What in the hell does that have to do with now? It's 2018.

And she has played maybe three games in that span.

[Sloonei]

Is that it? My next few posts in that thread were to make excuses for being late to the thread and to call people out for being shitty and rude to each other, and to ask people about their usual meta. I haven't done any of those things so it has to be the "let's go" right? :-?

"This is the only reason anyone could possibly have to be suspicious of me and it's bogus and any other argument you could make definitely doesn't apply, so it must be this, but look how inefficient it is."

I'll jump ahead to the post I labeled "obtuse":

I was trying to understand what I thought Jay's point of view might be, which is literally something you complained about me not doing earlier in this very long short story.

My complaint was that you weren't engaging with Jay about his viewpoint. This is a continuation of that.

[Kylemii]

There simply is no room for the consideration in Kyle's worldview. what bothers me about this, given the context, is that there appears to be no effort on Kyle's part to understand what the accusation is that's being brought against him. He just sees an accusation and launches into full denial of it. I'm still getting to know Kyle as a player,

that's wrong, I went back to the sc2 mafia forum to try and figure out what the might have thought was a tell. The only thing that made sense was "let's go" cus it was the only consistency.

you read the post and labelled it "incredulous"

Yes I did. Because you were responding to a case that didn't exist as if it had to be false. whether or not you went back to investigate your own past game is irrelevant to me. what's "incredulous" about all of this is that you're not allowing the case to be made against you before you deny it. You're just denying it off the bat.

No. I was responding to a case that could potentially be either true or false in Jay's mind. I had no way of knowing at the time, and jay just fucked off and left me out to dry so I reacted to both. What was I supposed to do? What else was there to talk about?

[MacDougall]

FZ is a player who I tend to not read very well generally but I am fairly confident that she wouldn't have come across like she was genuinely upset by the fact that I wasn't being "helpful" if she was Mafia. The comment would have been different, perhaps even jocular.

[speedchuck]

Solon is town
Could lynch marmot
DizY is town
Not comfortable with the way this tie is going

Hot potato marmot or consolidate people

Linki marmite

[speedchuck]

Phone posting qhy

[MacDougall]

Everyone please reply to this.

If one of Marmot or Wilgy were to be lynched today, who would you prefer it be?

Not a hard question guys. Please answer.

[MacDougall]

Solon is town
Could lynch marmot
DizY is town
Not comfortable with the way this tie is going

Hot potato marmot or consolidate people

Linki marmite

Who is Solon?

[Kylemii]

Is that it? My next few posts in that thread were to make excuses for being late to the thread and to call people out for being shitty and rude to each other, and to ask people about their usual meta. I haven't done any of those things so it has to be the "let's go" right? :-?

"This is the only reason anyone could possibly have to be suspicious of me and it's bogus and any other argument you could make definitely doesn't apply, so it must be this, but look how inefficient it is."

I'll jump ahead to the post I labeled "obtuse":

I was trying to understand what I thought Jay's point of view might be, which is literally something you complained about me not doing earlier in this very long short story.

My complaint was that you weren't engaging with Jay about his viewpoint. This is a continuation of that.

Jay. Wasn't. Online.

You want to know who was online? 4 people who saw Jay's trash and said "hmmm interesting! Jay must know something, here's 4 other reasons why we should all suspect Kyle, wow crazy"