[Game Over] Better Off Ted

[Epignosis]

It's funny, when I get mostly proven Civ in another game, people jump through hoops to believe that Long Con is Way Too Clever and is pulling a fast one on all of us. Like I'm plans-within-plans superdevious. Kind of refreshing to be accused of being a baddie with such a sloppy no-plan.

Nothing sloppy about this case on you fam.

I'm pretty certain you didn't read that correctly.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Hey gang, I'm not sure if the rest of you are seeing this coding mess at the top of the page. If so, be aware that we've noticed and will try to ascertain what's up. In the meantime continue to enjoy the game; the thread seems to be running in spite of the issue. Thanks.

[mention]Spacedaisy[/mention] we can sort it in the moderation/admin forums.

[MacDougall]

Okay so where I am at is I see three possibilities.

1. Given that the Creature wagon was indeed a civ wagon with very little push I am still looking for those who pushed against it for cred. These players would be showing TMI. Nutella, indiglo and birdwithteeth are the most questionable here, the latter two because they found their way off the main wagon with very little effort (when I observe BWT specifically, but would expect both, to me more likely to just agree to the main wagon if they are indeed civilians without info). Nutella more so because there is this sort of union between her and Dragomir but the tones are different. Dragomir gets a bit of a pass from me because he sounds more aggressive and is exhibiting more civvie doubt. I am gut and tone reading Dragomir town but Nutella has a more stiff feel in her posting.

2. Maybe we just have a lazier than usual Mafia team and rather than attempting to create some civ credit they chose to take the day off[/b] and just let the mislynch unfold and that I missed it entirely because I was blinded by my own read. I don't think LC and Epi are guilty of this, because Epignosis and Long Con were proponents of the wagon even before I kicked it off, they were not passively agreeing with it like some others. Juliets is someone who comes into question here, because she was on the wagon yet now in light of the flip is choosing to hitch herself to the nutella/Dragomir bloc... which I would do if I was in her position as Mafia. I find it questionable that Juliets has gone from being a proponent of the Creature lynch to now aligning herself with the primary objectors of it. It's a bit too quaint. DrWilgy is also a concern also is the one that put the third quick vote on that wagon and did so with a minimum of fuss, which I find strange for Wilgy who loves competing wagons. I also want to look at how Oreki and Matahari got their votes on to the wagon.

3. It is possible that we have a mix, something like the majority of the Mafia team choosing to be passive with one person angling for deepwolf status. Mathematically this is probably more likely, also supported by well as the fact that most Mafia teams don't bloc vote (they should but don't). In this scenario it makes sense that we would have something like a Nutella, DrWilgy, Juliets team, with Nutella taking the opportunity to pocket Dragomir and steer clear of the wagon to infiltrate any forming town bloc, with DrWilgy just relying on wifoming his way out and Juliets taking the safe option as she is want to do.

Lastly I am sorry Creature. I hope to see you in the next game, you play well.

[MacDougall]

Sokolth appears to have missed the vote altogether which is also quite suspect to me.

[MacDougall]

Dragomir
Epignosis
Long Con
Rej
SokothQultuq
Matahari
Oreki
indiglo
birdwithteeth11
DrWilgy
juliets
nutella

I am a little disappointed that I haven't got any really strong civ reads.

[MacDougall]

Part of the main reason why I wanted to lynch Creature is because I considered Creature a likely proponent of the decision to kill Kylemii. Since that's been disproven, it makes it more likely that Kylemii was killed specifically in order to make Creature look worse. That makes option 2 more credible.

[MacDougall]

Dragomir
Epignosis
Long Con
Rej

Matahari
Oreki
indiglo
birdwithteeth11
DrWilgy
juliets
nutella
SokothQultuq

Updated. I am seeing Mafia Sokoth here and I will explain why in the next post.

[MacDougall]

Sokoth's ISO is all about Kylemii and Creature. Examples below in spoilers of seen of the crime stuff. That he is more or less "seen at the scene of the crime" is one thing. But he also had a strong enough scum read on Creature in order to have voted for Creature on day 1. Yet when it comes to day 2 when there is a legitimate Creature lynch wagon formed by the time Sok enters the fray, he's evidently seen enough from Creature to back off ... but eventuallys backs off to nowhere and fails to register a vote.

This is a pretty strong indicator that he didn't want any part of what he knew was a mislynch.

Spoiler: show

Sounds like they think they know you, but without supporting evidence this bothers me.

You sounded opportunistic here btw.

Yeah I can see that. But its true to me. It does bother me when someone claims someone is something and does not provide supporting evidence. They are just making a case for me in this instance. I'm just calling it how I see it in this case.

Kyle - why such a strong and sudden jump on Creature?
What makes you 900000% sure enough to drop a vote?

just 90000%

Sorry, my bad... LOL But that feels a bit like your dodging answering the question. Unless your about to drop some mad knowledge on us...
Why 90000%?
I'd be interested in hearing your case for this vote and claim.

Kylemii's - Thank you for that information. Buy why not come out with that from the get go? Why did it have to be coaxed out of you? Shouldn't you open with that instead of just dropping a random vote and an obscure note?

also alphabetical order looks like a mafia tell.

Question - is this really a thing? Putting a list in alphabetical order is a Mafia Tell?

Kylemii's - Thank you for that information. Buy why not come out with that from the get go? Why did it have to be coaxed out of you? Shouldn't you open with that instead of just dropping a random vote and an obscure note?

He got a reaction out of you.

True, and I guess that makes sense. Make a post to cause people to start diving in. LOL
I will admit I did like Kyle's response. I'm still reading into Creature more now. So it worked.

I'm at work through the rest of this phase today so my activity is going to be low, but this is my take right now and where I stand.

So I have my own reservations about Creature, he looked good day one just from his reactions and I lacked enough to really point the finger anywhere else so I'm backing off on Creature and watching because I'd like to see more from them so I can get a better read. While I'm still slightly suspicious, I'll hold that one in reserve.

Rej is still pinging me with his reactions, while his explanation of his "I'm New" thing was good. I still kind of feel like its a ploy so he's also on my radar.

Dragon I'm leaning more towards the good side. He's seemed somewhat consistent to me and if his method is to be believed he's staying true to his word so far.

I kind of agree with the information that's been said about LongCon's activity. I didn't see it before until it was put into context. I'm at work through the rest of this phase so I will try and get a good read on LongCon again, but I'm leaning this way as well.

Most everyone else I'm having a hard time getting a read. Partially due to lack of activity.

The above is his first day 2 post. Now I might not be a Mafia academic but I'd call this one salad. I see no reason he has chosen to pass comment on this select group of players and not others. To be frank I think the post is just pingy as hell salad or no salad. Most notable here is the first paragraph which is just all over the place. He's suspicious, but Creature looked good, he lacked enough to point the finger so he's backing off, he wanted to see more to get a better read but he's still suspicious. Fast forward to EOD and he got way more out of Creature, he found nowhere better to put his vote and a Creature wagon was formed by then. I see very little reason why a civilian Sokoth doesn't just drop a vote on Creature here and then try to work the rest out. Surely someone struggling to keep up isn't THAT engaged.

To some degree Sokoth's ISO is pinging me so much I don't really know where to focus.

[SokothQultuq]

Sokolth appears to have missed the vote altogether which is also quite suspect to me.

You must have missed the part where I said I was at work?

[MacDougall]

Sokolth appears to have missed the vote altogether which is also quite suspect to me.

You must have missed the part where I said I was at work?

Damn that's a hell of a shift.

[DrWilgy]

I'm not finished with reading yet but looking at the thread, @birdwithteeth11 comes off quite aggressively and his behavior not really feel like town behavior, it's more comes off as a wolf for me. They way he ask players or point out thinks Kinda coming forcefully. I will read the entire thread and will provide my reads on my suspect along with birdwith.

@Creature if there's anything that I've learned in my time on this planet it's that if you sus bwt day 1 and he's not bad, you are. Wanna flip that coin buddy?

So I just found this. Wilgy is calling out Creature for doing something that Oreki did Day 1... but Wilgy doesn't throw any suspicion Oreki's way for it. I don't like that at all.

Dude. I've only read like 1/3rd the thread. Is Oreki my teammate now?

[DrWilgy]

Oh. Creature died.

Neat.

[Epignosis]

I think that's bad reasoning, Mac. If a train has five, six votes on it, hell, what's one more?

[MacDougall]

I think that's bad reasoning, Mac. If a train has five, six votes on it, hell, what's one more?

Eh you don't have to agree with my mindset, I welcome the debate but I you'll need to be more clear about what you're arguing against? I presume you are saying that there is too much room for mafia AND civs to hide their votes on the wagon but I thought I was pretty clear in identifying the specific ways in which they do it and what that means.

[Epignosis]

I think that's bad reasoning, Mac. If a train has five, six votes on it, hell, what's one more?

Eh you don't have to agree with my mindset, I welcome the debate but I you'll need to be more clear about what you're arguing against? I presume you are saying that there is too much room for mafia AND civs to hide their votes on the wagon but I thought I was pretty clear in identifying the specific ways in which they do it and what that means.

I don't suspect Sokoth. It is admittedly circumstantial, but I believe he just missed the vote. Trying to extend it to Sokoth trying to keep his hands clean of the matter seems unnecessary to me.

[Epignosis]

Consider: He voted there Day 1. If credibility was his concern, I'd think he'd be mindful to vote there again. It would not have been hard to do.

[Rej]

My town reads were correct the game through, and I am still...oof guys...

So it was clear this was a mislynch wagon but I like how people still kept discussing it through the whole day leading into nothing.

@Dragomir bruh, you don't wanna be mislynched again...it is one thing, but you also don't want to mislynch others. Others won't build up the psychology of not mislynching, but in the end you practice it, not only here, but you did the same on OJ. You don't let got of me, even when I jumped off the wagon on creature as one of the first.

From defense to offense...we don't have a townkilling by now and I rly sus Juliets now, because I am more used from her plays, she is doing more reads in generell etc, never seen someone playing so off and then going like:
"Hi Mac" - nothing else.

Ffs either MacDougall is town for 100% or he is deepwolfing and taking control of the wagons.
Also YAAAAAAAAAAAAAY 2 misslynches....Dragomir be like: "I am the most active here, leading the discussions..." tell me why is it so familair?
Oh right in our last game hosted by novas we both swiped town by forming one scumwagon against town after another and noone realized it while 1 obvious scum atleast were known to town.

I am getting heavy flashbacks here

[Rej]

Things got busier at work than I had thought so I never got back too this or my vote. So all the stuff I wrote is kind of null and void now I guess. This would have been a hard vote for me given that Creature was looking good for being bad to me, but it wasn't really enough for me to vote for them this round.

I did take a look at Long Con and I'm not really seeing it. I was intrigued by the comment and suspicions of others. So I took a look like I said I would.
Most of LC's early posts were just filler and responses to others and those of us who were stupid enough to not read the rules fully for that first vote. Most of the posts up until the one right after he voted for Sabie in the first day lynch were lacking in substance honestly. Mostly reactions, with the occasional observation maybe mean to poke at people.
But then he called out Sabie and highlighting some actual points, and I feel like this helped drive some of the votes that went that way. They felt like honest observations though to me.
The posts after that just kind of helped seal Creatures fate, but they seemed consistent to me.

I could use a bit more context on why Long Con is a good choice for the bad guy team for a future look at for a lynch, but right now I'm leaning more towards a good guy.

I commented on his thoughts on Sabie, which I said they're fake, forced and disingenuous. What do you think about that?

Also, besides town reading Sabie, what other thoughts do you have?

Town reading LC not Sabie @SokothQultuq

I actually didn't town read Sabie at all. I made observations of LC's posts. I kind of saw LC's observations but to me they seemed kind of lacking, not enough reason for me to jump on that train which is why I stayed with Creature as my vote that round that she got sacked. I didn't have really enough I felt to go in the red with LC. Not yet anyway.

I'm still suspicious of Rej. But i'm stuck in the middle on them.

I'm still re-reading a few people trying to decide how I feel.

I rly would be interested in hearing your case against me. Discuss your suspicion instead of jsut throwing it in!

[juliets]

My town reads were correct the game through, and I am still...oof guys...

So it was clear this was a mislynch wagon but I like how people still kept discussing it through the whole day leading into nothing.

@Dragomir bruh, you don't wanna be mislynched again...it is one thing, but you also don't want to mislynch others. Others won't build up the psychology of not mislynching, but in the end you practice it, not only here, but you did the same on OJ. You don't let got of me, even when I jumped off the wagon on creature as one of the first.

From defense to offense...we don't have a townkilling by now and I rly sus Juliets now, because I am more used from her plays, she is doing more reads in generell etc, never seen someone playing so off and then going like:
"Hi Mac" - nothing else.

Ffs either MacDougall is town for 100% or he is deepwolfing and taking control of the wagons.
Also YAAAAAAAAAAAAAY 2 misslynches....Dragomir be like: "I am the most active here, leading the discussions..." tell me why is it so familair?
Oh right in our last game hosted by novas we both swiped town by forming one scumwagon against town after another and noone realized it while 1 obvious scum atleast were known to town.

I am getting heavy flashbacks here

Hi Rej -

Could you explain what you mean above where I underlined? You say you are more used to me doing more reads (I think that's what you're saying) and you never have seen me more "off" but we have never, ever, ever played together before. This is the first time. Also, Mac said "Hi" to me and I just said the same back to him, it was nothing more than that. I think he said it because I said I was going to look at him. So again, it's fine if you think I am bad for other reasons but it isn't because I'm different from how you've played with me before because THIS is our FIRST game together.

[juliets]

Okay so where I am at is I see three possibilities.

1. Given that the Creature wagon was indeed a civ wagon with very little push I am still looking for those who pushed against it for cred. These players would be showing TMI. Nutella, indiglo and birdwithteeth are the most questionable here, the latter two because they found their way off the main wagon with very little effort (when I observe BWT specifically, but would expect both, to me more likely to just agree to the main wagon if they are indeed civilians without info). Nutella more so because there is this sort of union between her and Dragomir but the tones are different. Dragomir gets a bit of a pass from me because he sounds more aggressive and is exhibiting more civvie doubt. I am gut and tone reading Dragomir town but Nutella has a more stiff feel in her posting.

2. Maybe we just have a lazier than usual Mafia team and rather than attempting to create some civ credit they chose to take the day off[/b] and just let the mislynch unfold and that I missed it entirely because I was blinded by my own read. I don't think LC and Epi are guilty of this, because Epignosis and Long Con were proponents of the wagon even before I kicked it off, they were not passively agreeing with it like some others. Juliets is someone who comes into question here, because she was on the wagon yet now in light of the flip is choosing to hitch herself to the nutella/Dragomir bloc... which I would do if I was in her position as Mafia. I find it questionable that Juliets has gone from being a proponent of the Creature lynch to now aligning herself with the primary objectors of it. It's a bit too quaint. DrWilgy is also a concern also is the one that put the third quick vote on that wagon and did so with a minimum of fuss, which I find strange for Wilgy who loves competing wagons. I also want to look at how Oreki and Matahari got their votes on to the wagon.

3. It is possible that we have a mix, something like the majority of the Mafia team choosing to be passive with one person angling for deepwolf status. Mathematically this is probably more likely, also supported by well as the fact that most Mafia teams don't bloc vote (they should but don't). In this scenario it makes sense that we would have something like a Nutella, DrWilgy, Juliets team, with Nutella taking the opportunity to pocket Dragomir and steer clear of the wagon to infiltrate any forming town bloc, with DrWilgy just relying on wifoming his way out and Juliets taking the safe option as she is want to do.

Lastly I am sorry Creature. I hope to see you in the next game, you play well.

I saw Drago and nutella as town because they were arguing so hard against the lynch. I know you have a theory that the arguing against it made them mafia (or I see you have revised that above to just nutella) but I didn't buy that argument the first time around. I will read through it again when I review your ISO later today to make sure I still feel that way. Anyway, it came off to me that they were most certainly town.

I am not bad, I've just been very busy and maybe haven't thought things through well enough here but I died in the other game so will be able to devote more time to this one starting this afternoon when I get home from work.

[MacDougall]

Okay so them arguing against a civ mislynch doesn't make them Mafia, but it sure as hell doesn't make them town. That's a terrible reason and if that's your only one I'll be voting you as soon as this night ends.

[MacDougall]

I know you think deeper than that juliets. I know you know better than to civ read people just because they argued against a wagon.

[Rej]

My town reads were correct the game through, and I am still...oof guys...

So it was clear this was a mislynch wagon but I like how people still kept discussing it through the whole day leading into nothing.

@Dragomir bruh, you don't wanna be mislynched again...it is one thing, but you also don't want to mislynch others. Others won't build up the psychology of not mislynching, but in the end you practice it, not only here, but you did the same on OJ. You don't let got of me, even when I jumped off the wagon on creature as one of the first.

From defense to offense...we don't have a townkilling by now and I rly sus Juliets now, because I am more used from her plays, she is doing more reads in generell etc, never seen someone playing so off and then going like:
"Hi Mac" - nothing else.

Ffs either MacDougall is town for 100% or he is deepwolfing and taking control of the wagons.
Also YAAAAAAAAAAAAAY 2 misslynches....Dragomir be like: "I am the most active here, leading the discussions..." tell me why is it so familair?
Oh right in our last game hosted by novas we both swiped town by forming one scumwagon against town after another and noone realized it while 1 obvious scum atleast were known to town.

I am getting heavy flashbacks here

Hi Rej -

Could you explain what you mean above where I underlined? You say you are more used to me doing more reads (I think that's what you're saying) and you never have seen me more "off" but we have never, ever, ever played together before. This is the first time. Also, Mac said "Hi" to me and I just said the same back to him, it was nothing more than that. I think he said it because I said I was going to look at him. So again, it's fine if you think I am bad for other reasons but it isn't because I'm different from how you've played with me before because THIS is our FIRST game together.

Oh so you are not Juliet from OJ, my apologize xd I thought you were trolling me.

[Dragomir]

Okay so them arguing against a civ mislynch doesn't make them Mafia, but it sure as hell doesn't make them town. That's a terrible reason and if that's your only one I'll be voting you as soon as this night ends.

So what does it make us? Indie?

[Dragomir]

My town reads were correct the game through, and I am still...oof guys...

So it was clear this was a mislynch wagon but I like how people still kept discussing it through the whole day leading into nothing.

@Dragomir bruh, you don't wanna be mislynched again...it is one thing, but you also don't want to mislynch others. Others won't build up the psychology of not mislynching, but in the end you practice it, not only here, but you did the same on OJ. You don't let got of me, even when I jumped off the wagon on creature as one of the first.

From defense to offense...we don't have a townkilling by now and I rly sus Juliets now, because I am more used from her plays, she is doing more reads in generell etc, never seen someone playing so off and then going like:
"Hi Mac" - nothing else.

Ffs either MacDougall is town for 100% or he is deepwolfing and taking control of the wagons.
Also YAAAAAAAAAAAAAY 2 misslynches....Dragomir be like: "I am the most active here, leading the discussions..." tell me why is it so familair?
Oh right in our last game hosted by novas we both swiped town by forming one scumwagon against town after another and noone realized it while 1 obvious scum atleast were known to town.

I am getting heavy flashbacks here

Hi Rej -

Could you explain what you mean above where I underlined? You say you are more used to me doing more reads (I think that's what you're saying) and you never have seen me more "off" but we have never, ever, ever played together before. This is the first time. Also, Mac said "Hi" to me and I just said the same back to him, it was nothing more than that. I think he said it because I said I was going to look at him. So again, it's fine if you think I am bad for other reasons but it isn't because I'm different from how you've played with me before because THIS is our FIRST game together.

Oh so you are not Juliet from OJ, my apologize xd I thought you were trolling me.

I literally told you that.

[Dragomir]

[mention]MacDougall[/mention] what do you think about Rej?

[Dragomir]

Oh right in our last game hosted by novas we both swiped town by forming one scumwagon against town after another and noone realized it while 1 obvious scum atleast were known to town.

So we gonna ignore the fact that I as a town also lead discussions and lead town? Not to mention MORE than I do as scum?

[Rej]

@MacDougall what do you think about Rej?

He already said he townreads me, if I would be scum then I wouldn't leave early on the Wagon on Creature. And I think most vet players will tell you I am town, probably just playing bad and confused. Accept the fact that I am scumreading you bruh...

[Rej]

Oh right in our last game hosted by novas we both swiped town by forming one scumwagon against town after another and noone realized it while 1 obvious scum atleast were known to town.

So we gonna ignore the fact that I as a town also lead discussions and lead town? Not to mention MORE than I do as scum?

Dude I trust you a shit, you were about to enter sme mafia championships representing OJ, you are open for every surprise even surpassing your own scum self, like you did with the Novas game.

[Rej]

My town reads were correct the game through, and I am still...oof guys...

So it was clear this was a mislynch wagon but I like how people still kept discussing it through the whole day leading into nothing.

@Dragomir bruh, you don't wanna be mislynched again...it is one thing, but you also don't want to mislynch others. Others won't build up the psychology of not mislynching, but in the end you practice it, not only here, but you did the same on OJ. You don't let got of me, even when I jumped off the wagon on creature as one of the first.

From defense to offense...we don't have a townkilling by now and I rly sus Juliets now, because I am more used from her plays, she is doing more reads in generell etc, never seen someone playing so off and then going like:
"Hi Mac" - nothing else.

Ffs either MacDougall is town for 100% or he is deepwolfing and taking control of the wagons.
Also YAAAAAAAAAAAAAY 2 misslynches....Dragomir be like: "I am the most active here, leading the discussions..." tell me why is it so familair?
Oh right in our last game hosted by novas we both swiped town by forming one scumwagon against town after another and noone realized it while 1 obvious scum atleast were known to town.

I am getting heavy flashbacks here

Hi Rej -

Could you explain what you mean above where I underlined? You say you are more used to me doing more reads (I think that's what you're saying) and you never have seen me more "off" but we have never, ever, ever played together before. This is the first time. Also, Mac said "Hi" to me and I just said the same back to him, it was nothing more than that. I think he said it because I said I was going to look at him. So again, it's fine if you think I am bad for other reasons but it isn't because I'm different from how you've played with me before because THIS is our FIRST game together.

Oh so you are not Juliet from OJ, my apologize xd I thought you were trolling me.

I literally told you that.

sry I forgot that, but now I finally got that xd

[Dragomir]

@MacDougall what do you think about Rej?

He already said he townreads me, if I would be scum then I wouldn't leave early on the Wagon on Creature. And I think most vet players will tell you I am town, probably just playing bad and confused. Accept the fact that I am scumreading you bruh...

Why are you defending yourself here? I didn't even accuse of anything just asked Mac for his thoughts on you but you're jumping to your own defense. This is bad Rej, really bad.

[Dragomir]

Oh right in our last game hosted by novas we both swiped town by forming one scumwagon against town after another and noone realized it while 1 obvious scum atleast were known to town.

So we gonna ignore the fact that I as a town also lead discussions and lead town? Not to mention MORE than I do as scum?

Dude I trust you a shit, you were about to enter sme mafia championships representing OJ, you are open for every surprise even surpassing your own scum self, like you did with the Novas game.

I have no idea what you mean in this post. Explain it again.

[Rej]

@MacDougall what do you think about Rej?

He already said he townreads me, if I would be scum then I wouldn't leave early on the Wagon on Creature. And I think most vet players will tell you I am town, probably just playing bad and confused. Accept the fact that I am scumreading you bruh...

Why are you defending yourself here? I didn't even accuse of anything just asked Mac for his thoughts on you but you're jumping to your own defense. This is bad Rej, really bad.

I am thinking ahead and taking the option of you trying to collect opinions to form a mislynch wagon on me. That is naturally my first reaction I have about your approach.

[Rej]

Oh right in our last game hosted by novas we both swiped town by forming one scumwagon against town after another and noone realized it while 1 obvious scum atleast were known to town.

So we gonna ignore the fact that I as a town also lead discussions and lead town? Not to mention MORE than I do as scum?

Dude I trust you a shit, you were about to enter sme mafia championships representing OJ, you are open for every surprise even surpassing your own scum self, like you did with the Novas game.

I have no idea what you mean in this post. Explain it again.

I literally said you become better and better as scum player.

[Dragomir]

@MacDougall what do you think about Rej?

He already said he townreads me, if I would be scum then I wouldn't leave early on the Wagon on Creature. And I think most vet players will tell you I am town, probably just playing bad and confused. Accept the fact that I am scumreading you bruh...

Why are you defending yourself here? I didn't even accuse of anything just asked Mac for his thoughts on you but you're jumping to your own defense. This is bad Rej, really bad.

I am thinking ahead and taking the option of you trying to collect opinions to form a mislynch wagon on me. That is naturally my first reaction I have about your approach.

Yeah, no this ain't how it works buddy. This preemptive worry is not townie at all.

[Dragomir]

Oh right in our last game hosted by novas we both swiped town by forming one scumwagon against town after another and noone realized it while 1 obvious scum atleast were known to town.

So we gonna ignore the fact that I as a town also lead discussions and lead town? Not to mention MORE than I do as scum?

Dude I trust you a shit, you were about to enter sme mafia championships representing OJ, you are open for every surprise even surpassing your own scum self, like you did with the Novas game.

I have no idea what you mean in this post. Explain it again.

I literally said you become better and better as scum player.

Could have just said that but ok.

[Rej]

@MacDougall what do you think about Rej?

He already said he townreads me, if I would be scum then I wouldn't leave early on the Wagon on Creature. And I think most vet players will tell you I am town, probably just playing bad and confused. Accept the fact that I am scumreading you bruh...

Why are you defending yourself here? I didn't even accuse of anything just asked Mac for his thoughts on you but you're jumping to your own defense. This is bad Rej, really bad.

I am thinking ahead and taking the option of you trying to collect opinions to form a mislynch wagon on me. That is naturally my first reaction I have about your approach.

Yeah, no this ain't how it works buddy. This preemptive worry is not townie at all.

I just tried to think ahead of scum.

[indiglo]

@indiglo why Wilgy?

I posted my reasoning in the post directly before my vote post Iit was supposed to be all in 1 post, but, something freaked out and it posted before I could add my vote to the post):

I'm not finished with reading yet but looking at the thread, @birdwithteeth11 comes off quite aggressively and his behavior not really feel like town behavior, it's more comes off as a wolf for me. They way he ask players or point out thinks Kinda coming forcefully. I will read the entire thread and will provide my reads on my suspect along with birdwith.

@Creature if there's anything that I've learned in my time on this planet it's that if you sus bwt day 1 and he's not bad, you are. Wanna flip that coin buddy?

So I just found this. Wilgy is calling out Creature for doing something that Oreki did Day 1... but Wilgy doesn't throw any suspicion Oreki's way for it. I don't like that at all.

[indiglo]

Poo, still no consensus and I have to go. I understand it, since there are still a couple hours left, but still, poo.

I'm waffling between a Mac-Wilgy-Oreki team and an LC-Wilgy-Oreki team. I prefer leaving my vote on Wilgy, who I feel more sure about, rather than choosing between Mac and LC. However, my Wilgy vote accomplishes nothing by its lonesome... and Mac and LC both have votes already, so my vote would have a chance to accomplish something.

Meh. I'm going to take another couple minutes.

This is kind of lame. So your big idea is that the whole baddie team is voting for Creature for some reason. Are we supposed to take that seriously?

It doesn't matter to me how you take it. If I see connections between people, or things that don't feel town, I'm mentioning them. I don't expect you to like it, since your name is on the list.

[DrWilgy]

Is my name also on the list?

[indiglo]

yeah suspicious or not I think I'm going to vote Creature for similar reasons.

@juliets What were the similar reasons you mentioned here for voting Creature? I ask, because your post was directly after this post of Mata's:

I tend to trust Mac so far. Maybe not 100%, but I don’t see a reason not to. He was quiet and town in one game, and more talkative and bad in the next. That’s very little to go on, but I’m a gut based player, and I have never played with six of these people. Mac has been steady on Creature, so I may vote him.
Some of Creature’s posts, I don’t even know what he means.

Also, sorry for multi-posting, I'm catching up and posting as I go to avoid a giant Wall-of-Text post.

[nutella]

Okay so where I am at is I see three possibilities.

1. Given that the Creature wagon was indeed a civ wagon with very little push I am still looking for those who pushed against it for cred. These players would be showing TMI. Nutella, indiglo and birdwithteeth are the most questionable here, the latter two because they found their way off the main wagon with very little effort (when I observe BWT specifically, but would expect both, to me more likely to just agree to the main wagon if they are indeed civilians without info). Nutella more so because there is this sort of union between her and Dragomir but the tones are different. Dragomir gets a bit of a pass from me because he sounds more aggressive and is exhibiting more civvie doubt. I am gut and tone reading Dragomir town but Nutella has a more stiff feel in her posting.

2. Maybe we just have a lazier than usual Mafia team and rather than attempting to create some civ credit they chose to take the day off[/b] and just let the mislynch unfold and that I missed it entirely because I was blinded by my own read. I don't think LC and Epi are guilty of this, because Epignosis and Long Con were proponents of the wagon even before I kicked it off, they were not passively agreeing with it like some others. Juliets is someone who comes into question here, because she was on the wagon yet now in light of the flip is choosing to hitch herself to the nutella/Dragomir bloc... which I would do if I was in her position as Mafia. I find it questionable that Juliets has gone from being a proponent of the Creature lynch to now aligning herself with the primary objectors of it. It's a bit too quaint. DrWilgy is also a concern also is the one that put the third quick vote on that wagon and did so with a minimum of fuss, which I find strange for Wilgy who loves competing wagons. I also want to look at how Oreki and Matahari got their votes on to the wagon.

3. It is possible that we have a mix, something like the majority of the Mafia team choosing to be passive with one person angling for deepwolf status. Mathematically this is probably more likely, also supported by well as the fact that most Mafia teams don't bloc vote (they should but don't). In this scenario it makes sense that we would have something like a Nutella, DrWilgy, Juliets team, with Nutella taking the opportunity to pocket Dragomir and steer clear of the wagon to infiltrate any forming town bloc, with DrWilgy just relying on wifoming his way out and Juliets taking the safe option as she is want to do.

Lastly I am sorry Creature. I hope to see you in the next game, you play well.

I saw Drago and nutella as town because they were arguing so hard against the lynch. I know you have a theory that the arguing against it made them mafia (or I see you have revised that above to just nutella) but I didn't buy that argument the first time around. I will read through it again when I review your ISO later today to make sure I still feel that way. Anyway, it came off to me that they were most certainly town.

I am not bad, I've just been very busy and maybe haven't thought things through well enough here but I died in the other game so will be able to devote more time to this one starting this afternoon when I get home from work.

Yikes juliets bad

[indiglo]

I don't particularly trust Mac. I mostly don't trust Mac though, I don't distrust him specifically for this game. Like, not any more than usual.

To me, in a game where infodumping isn't allowed, saying "Can you just vote there because I asked" carries a bit more gravitas, because it's about the level of strength one could use to make a "I alignment-checked Creature and he's bad" statement.

So, you're saying here that Mac happens to have an alignment checker role. On Night 1, he happened to alignment check Creature, and he happened to hit the jackpot and found out Creature was mafia? See, I think that's kind of lame.

I wouldn't normally think it was lame, because I generally think it's wise to posit any and all theories. But you said mine was lame, and yours is on the same level, so I'm calling it lame too.





Linki w/nutella, I'm thinking that may be the case as well. Which makes me sad.

[nutella]

Dragomir
indiglo
Rej
MacDougall
Epignosis
birdwithteeth11
Oreki
SokothQultuq
DrWilgy
Matahari
juliets
Long Con

[indiglo]

Dragomir
nutella
Rej
Epignosis
birdwithteeth11
Sokoth
Mac
LongCon
Matahari
juliets
DrWilgy
Oreki

[nutella]

I don't think I processed anything that happened with oreki but I don't feel like going back so could you explain that read a little?

[Dragomir]

Dragomir
indiglo
Rej
MacDougall
Epignosis
birdwithteeth11
Oreki
SokothQultuq
DrWilgy
Matahari
juliets
Long Con

What makes Rej town to you?

[birdwithteeth11]

Okay so where I am at is I see three possibilities.

1. Given that the Creature wagon was indeed a civ wagon with very little push I am still looking for those who pushed against it for cred. These players would be showing TMI. Nutella, indiglo and birdwithteeth are the most questionable here, the latter two because they found their way off the main wagon with very little effort (when I observe BWT specifically, but would expect both, to me more likely to just agree to the main wagon if they are indeed civilians without info). Nutella more so because there is this sort of union between her and Dragomir but the tones are different. Dragomir gets a bit of a pass from me because he sounds more aggressive and is exhibiting more civvie doubt. I am gut and tone reading Dragomir town but Nutella has a more stiff feel in her posting.

2. Maybe we just have a lazier than usual Mafia team and rather than attempting to create some civ credit they chose to take the day off[/b] and just let the mislynch unfold and that I missed it entirely because I was blinded by my own read. I don't think LC and Epi are guilty of this, because Epignosis and Long Con were proponents of the wagon even before I kicked it off, they were not passively agreeing with it like some others. Juliets is someone who comes into question here, because she was on the wagon yet now in light of the flip is choosing to hitch herself to the nutella/Dragomir bloc... which I would do if I was in her position as Mafia. I find it questionable that Juliets has gone from being a proponent of the Creature lynch to now aligning herself with the primary objectors of it. It's a bit too quaint. DrWilgy is also a concern also is the one that put the third quick vote on that wagon and did so with a minimum of fuss, which I find strange for Wilgy who loves competing wagons. I also want to look at how Oreki and Matahari got their votes on to the wagon.

3. It is possible that we have a mix, something like the majority of the Mafia team choosing to be passive with one person angling for deepwolf status. Mathematically this is probably more likely, also supported by well as the fact that most Mafia teams don't bloc vote (they should but don't). In this scenario it makes sense that we would have something like a Nutella, DrWilgy, Juliets team, with Nutella taking the opportunity to pocket Dragomir and steer clear of the wagon to infiltrate any forming town bloc, with DrWilgy just relying on wifoming his way out and Juliets taking the safe option as she is want to do.

Lastly I am sorry Creature. I hope to see you in the next game, you play well.

I think #3 is the most likely right now. In regards to #1, I can't speak for nutella or indi, but the results of the Day 1 lynch coupled with the Creature vote started very early on Day 2 with a good 4 or 5 votes against him (don't remember the exact number) made me think he was probably civ. #2 only feels more likely to me if the majority of the mafia is being lazy. And in most games I've never felt that to be the case.

[birdwithteeth11]

Part of the main reason why I wanted to lynch Creature is because I considered Creature a likely proponent of the decision to kill Kylemii. Since that's been disproven, it makes it more likely that Kylemii was killed specifically in order to make Creature look worse. That makes option 2 more credible.

I'm confused as to how that makes option 2 more viable. I think the mix you mentioned in option 3 is even more viable due to such reasoning and the aftermath of it.

[nutella]

Dragomir
indiglo
Rej
MacDougall
Epignosis
birdwithteeth11
Oreki
SokothQultuq
DrWilgy
Matahari
juliets
Long Con

What makes Rej town to you?

Tone/genuine frustration imo -- like indi said it feels like he is on his own navigating an unfamiliar setting/doesn't have partners and I get the sense he is honestly expressing how he feels about stuff in the way only a townie can