Dogs vs. Cats [END]

[MacDougall]

I think Dragomir is the vig and Michelle knows it and Michelle roleblocked Dragomir in order to keep both of them around tbh.

[nutella]

I am pretty sure it was clearly stated at one point that the plan was just to kill whichever of the two wasn't lynched.

[MacDougall]

Oi, Michelle scum slipped. Read my post.

[nutella]

Mac we're usually on similar wavelengths why does it feel like I'm talking to a brick wall now. You're not getting it.

[nutella]

No, that's not a slip. Come on.

[MacDougall]

I am pretty sure it was clearly stated at one point that the plan was just to kill whichever of the two wasn't lynched.

Only by you.

[nutella]

I am pretty sure it was clearly stated at one point that the plan was just to kill whichever of the two wasn't lynched.

Only by you.

Okay. So?

[MacDougall]

No, that's not a slip. Come on.

HOW THE FUCK IS IT NOT?

Michelle literally used "he" to refer to the vig TWICE. The Mafia have a rolecop. The Mafia probably rolecopped Dragomir hence how they were able to be so accurate with the roleblock.

Michelle is female. Since when do females refer to gender neutral things as he?

[MacDougall]

I am pretty sure it was clearly stated at one point that the plan was just to kill whichever of the two wasn't lynched.

Only by you.

Okay. So?

The vigilante themselves never agreed to the plan unless the vigilante is you.

[nutella]

Because it's not. Jesus. Think about this for a few seconds. Read my posts.

[MacDougall]

Nutella, I just checked. You referred to them as "the vig" all game. Michelle referred to them as he. It's a total slip.

[nutella]

I am pretty sure it was clearly stated at one point that the plan was just to kill whichever of the two wasn't lynched.

Only by you.

Okay. So?

The vigilante themselves never agreed to the plan unless the vigilante is you.

I mean obviously not everybody made some clear overt statement that they understood the plan. That would be silly. But it was there.

[nutella]

Nutella, I just checked. You referred to them as "the vig" all game. Michelle referred to them as he. It's a total slip.

No.

[MacDougall]

I am pretty sure it was clearly stated at one point that the plan was just to kill whichever of the two wasn't lynched.

Only by you.

Okay. So?

The vigilante themselves never agreed to the plan unless the vigilante is you.

I mean obviously not everybody made some clear overt statement that they understood the plan. That would be silly. But it was there.

I do not think that it is reasonable to assume that the vigilante, or the mafia, or anyone would have known of, and in addition to that, automatically agreed with, a plan to shoot Fayt.

Firstly, I didn't know if it.

Secondly, what if Fayt is the vig?

Thirdly, what if the vig thought Fayt was a civ?

The point is this entire line of thinking Fayt is suspicious because they are alive is irrational. Fayt is alive specifically BECAUSE she is suspicious imo.

[nutella]

Think about it and then reread the posts from drago I quoted about the plan.

[nutella]

I am pretty sure it was clearly stated at one point that the plan was just to kill whichever of the two wasn't lynched.

Only by you.

Okay. So?

The vigilante themselves never agreed to the plan unless the vigilante is you.

I mean obviously not everybody made some clear overt statement that they understood the plan. That would be silly. But it was there.

I do not think that it is reasonable to assume that the vigilante, or the mafia, or anyone would have known of, and in addition to that, automatically agreed with, a plan to shoot Fayt.

Firstly, I didn't know if it.

Secondly, what if Fayt is the vig?

Thirdly, what if the vig thought Fayt was a civ?

The point is this entire line of thinking Fayt is suspicious because they are alive is irrational. Fayt is alive specifically BECAUSE she is suspicious imo.

To be honest those ideas didn't occur to me. I wonder why.

[MacDougall]

I don't need to think about it. I know that you are soft claiming vig. "Reading your posts" didn't accomplish that, your refusal to entertain what I am saying did. I don't like that you are doing it so I am kind of confused and flailing about it. You should be mod-killed for it imo.

[MacDougall]

I get why you are doing it given I am backing you into a corner in which you would need to entertain something you know to be wrong in order to not, but it still is outright breaking the rules.

[MacDougall]

I dunno, we move on I guess until the host makes a ruling with Nutella and Mac civ cleared. Sorry last Mafia.

So then I suppose we entertain Drago vs. Fayt then. If it is that simple we should just lynch one and then the other and endgame this.

[nutella]

I don't think I'm breaking any rules. If I have then I sincerely apologize to ddl and accept a modkill. My cases are based on public information.

[MacDougall]

I still find it strange that Michelle used gender pronouns to describe someone of an unknown, but if she is ESL that might explain it. Particularly if she is French, Spanish, Italian or another speaker of a language that has different use of gender in linguistics.

[MacDougall]

I don't think I'm breaking any rules. If I have then I sincerely apologize to ddl and accept a modkill. My cases are based on public information.

It doesn't matter anyway I'm not gonna make a big deal out of it lol. Let's move on and solve the game. It's not often you get two civ cleared people at L-6.

[MacDougall]

If it's Drago vs. Fayt we need to find a really strong reason to civ clear Michelle and Nova. Do you have either of those? I do not, I'll search for them.

[MacDougall]

So we now know that the day 1 poll was town vs. scum. We also know that Speedchuck for some whack ass reason voted for Rej over Long Con. I can only assume it was because he was not around EOD otherwise wouldn't have let Rej go like that because it's objectively a bad play. Like lolcatting a vote swap to LC at EOD is always a better play than letting a teammate die on day 1. Literally always, and Speedchuck is experienced enough to know that.

I presume that there was at least some effort from Rej's partner to question Rej's lynch on day 1 in the hopes that Speedchuck would return and force the lynch on LC. So I would imagine that Rej's partner was someone who questions his wagon but ultimately voted there for the distance cred.

Fayt, and Nova apply.

It is possible that they also just left their vote on LC in the hopes Speedchuck would come back and hammer.

I'll have a quick look at the order of the votes.

[MacDougall]

Michelle - Michelle made zero effort to ever distance from Rej. Surely she makes at least some effort day 1 to distance from him when he's taking as much flak as he was if she is his partner. It seems more likely she was just utterly fooled by him. Her behaviour profiles more as a townie with a bad read.

Fayt - On the flipside Fayt maintained a scum read on Rej the entire time, never really entertaining a town read on him, never attempting to try to plan for jumping to LC. While this could just be a scum distance that got stuck in the sense that they couldn't justify town reading him, I tend to think it's more just an accurate read.

Dragomir - Both of the aforementioned's treatment of Rej was straight and consistent. When you compare it with how Dragomir treated Rej, it's vastly different.

Agreed with concern about Rej take. Potential TMI on Dragomir.

Why? What about it strikes as TMI?

This is strangely defensive given the inverse correlation here is that Dragomir is town via Rej being mafia. If I try to put myself in Dragomir's situation I don't get so antagonistic towards people exhibiting this read. Especially since we now know that everyone pushing that train of thought was town and correct to do so.

Drago is town

Rej is cat. "I don't understand the case" is scumtell sometimes

Super weak reason against one. "I don't understand the case" is not at all alignment indicative and can be said by anyone regardless of alignment. Like how could you use that as a scum tell? I don't get it.

I don't believe he doesn't get it tbh. I think everyone gets it?

@Rej, why is Dragomir a civilian?

@Dragomir, why is Rej a civilian?

I don't know how to articulate it my thought on him.

Despite defending Rej he cannot articulate it, or is afraid to fake a read on a drowning teammate.

Does a mafia Rej on the chopping block decide that his best bet on Day 1 is to defend Dragomir and go after a very unlikely lynch of me?

It can make a little sense if they're both mafia, but even that seems dubious. Most teams probably just bus here.

Hmm, brings up a question for me. To those that suspect, do you suspect Rej as well? Same for vice versa.

This is exactly how teammates defend teammates. Invent hypotheticals, encourage people to think about logical fallacies in the hopes that it moves the dialogue elsewhere. Consider that this is in reply to townie Jay defending scum Rej, this is opportunistic from Dragomir, building on top of a townie defending his buddy (and by proxy himself).

Hmm, would scum Nutella stop pushing me or continue pressing the very likely lynch? I'm inclined to believe the latter. So right now, Nutella is in good looks.

Rej is the leading wagon, not you.

Oh right. Gonna have to rethink this then. @Nutella do you suspect Rej?

More refusal to articulate thought, given that Nutella in fact ended up on LC I think this reads like him trying to give a loud speaker to another townie he knows will put prorej content into the thread by proxy of it being anti LC).

It's also worth noting this.

Long Con and Epi are Rej's buddies. I'm basing this off of reads. I'll explain in a sec.

I think while circumstantial it's a bit rich that Dragomir tied two strong civilians to his flip.

Nova - I mean, going on day 1. Nova just antagonised and straight fucked Rej's shit up. There was nothing suspect about how did it at all. Just called him bad from the jump and stuck with it. I've got nothing against Nova there.

So in short. Fuck you [VOTE: Dragomir] aubergine lol.

[MacDougall]

[mention]novaselinenever[/mention] [mention]Fayt[/mention] [mention]Michelle[/mention] let's end this man's entire career

[MacDougall]

Oh in case it wasn't said yet, Rej and Dragomir drove the LC wagon. Everyone else jumped aboard but it was them that drove it.

[MacDougall]

The circumstantial evidence against Dragomir is everywhere you look tbh. Long Con had a town read on Fayt and a scum read on Dragomir. Dead.

Yesterday's wagon formation was;

Dom: Nut, Nova, Michelle, Drago
Drago: LC, Mac, Fayt, Dom

That's literally three confirmed civs on the Drago wagon. That's fucking pure as.

[MacDougall]

Can drago and Rej both be bad?

Heh. Heh. Heh. Speedchuck you funny motherfucker.

[MacDougall]

Low-key wanna scum read Jay for being tryhard just cause it'd be funny.

That's a turnaround.

Meh comment.

I read further and whoa Drago is SDing and it's only D0

Little poke.

Oh wait it's D1.

Drago's obstinate refusal to explain his reads is baffling. For those who've seen normal scum drago, is he always really, really obvscum or is he just lolcatting right now?

linki: self-destructing and oh hey there's a post

Hard poke, but with a get out clause. Distance-like. "This guy is scummy but can he be obvscum, is he just lolcatting"? Is what you do.

So here is why Jay is bad. First, these quick and fast reads he's throwing with cat and dog reads feel like an attempt to generate early town cred by coming in hot and strong with all that. The downside with this is that there's no expansion afterward from all that. There's a little reason given to the good Nutella read by I'm not really focused on that one. What I am focused on are the scum reads. They're thrown in there and that's about it. The Mac wolf read came and gone just like that, making it feel like there wasn't any actual thought process into it in the first place and the Turnip vote doesn't even look real. It just got placed in there.

Now my second reason against Jay is with how he's tackling me. He puts me rock bottom in his rainbow with a bright red like I'm strong read but my conversation with him didn't reflect that for me. It feels like he's still trying to decide on how to read me. That doesn't match up with my rainbow placement. The entire feel that I'm getting about him is that he's not wanting to drive. He wants to sit in the back and let someone else drive while he takes a few jabs here and there. Does that make sense?

I like the idea here. I disagree, but I like it.

That's a turnaround.

I really don't understand how my trolling was scummy. I just don't. I don't think I ever will.

Scumminess is in the eye of the beholder.

More meh.

I like this. People scum reading me. More of what I'm used to.

...??????

What's so confusing?

Only game I've seen you in you were a ubiquitous townread. Do you usually get scumread? Where? (perdon if this was already asked)

Pretty pointless question. Softball here. If this is scum speedchuck trying to bury a townie, why is he not doing a good job?

speedchuck, why Rej?

Because not Dragomir. Dragomir's current play feels scummy, but doesn't make much sense as scumplay on further reflection.

I buy Dragomir's response to pressure better than Rej's. Rej has been on edge since the first time he was prodded.

@Rej what is your absolute favorite thing ever about sprityo in this here game thread?

Gimme a break I cant ISO posts on mobile, can I?

Felt like a disproportionate reaction, hardly worth noting at the time. But it's escalated to the point that he has a vote on you, and that read doesn't seem genuine. He's banking all of his analysis on the one Persona game, which is fallacious as heck. "JJJ isn't doing things exactly like he did in P5" is not a case, it's a justification.

Because he doesn't want to lynch Dragomir. Why would he not continue to push a civilian over his teammate here? He has a perfectly fine agenda to do so as a scum. What is the scum motivation of taking the pressure off a civilian that's being lined up in order to put pressure on a teammate?

Not damning, but very not good.

[MacDougall]

Anywho I'm done now. If Dragomir is town, well we reassess. He's the best lynch today objectively imo.

Tl;dr Why Dragomir? Has MO to kill LC. Had three confirmed civs try to lynch him yesterday (probs four). Has bad looks on the day 1 rej lynch. Has bad looks with speedchuck.

Tl;dr why not Fayt? LC town read her. She didn't look like she had any real agenda on the Rej lynch and ended up voting there cleanly. Outside of my really dumb callout on day 1 she only has night action shit going against her tbh. She profiles as the person being brought forward day after day as the mislynch candidate. This game's Keldeo if you will.

[MacDougall]

Why not Nova? He buried rej with zero agenda or question.

Why not Michelle? The way she defended Rej looks way more like a bad read. Which also explains why she's still alive today. Gotta keep lynchable candidates around.

Why not Nutella? Well she's a vig isn't she lol.

[MacDougall]

Aight [mention]Dragomir[/mention] don't drag it out. You can comeowt now.

[Fayt]

Hmm. ..

Okay, I can't ignore all that evidence. I cleared him initially in this phase because he seemed genuine last phase eod and this phase. Well that and the LC kill but the LC kill was explained. That's not much to clear him with other than having a gut feeling and believing he seems genuine.

[VOTE: Dragomir] aubergine

[nutella]

@novaselinenever @Fayt @Michelle let's end this man's entire career

I been sayin' lol

[nutella]

Tell me you would have made that case on drago even if you hadn't decided to civ clear me though bc I feel real bad about my dumb loose mouth having affected the game unfairly.

[nutella]

I mean a lot of those points are already things I thought/said about drago but nobody cared until you said them

[MacDougall]

who cares

[MacDougall]

Tell me you would have made that case on drago even if you hadn't decided to civ clear me though bc I feel real bad about my dumb loose mouth having affected the game unfairly.

I probably would have got there but who the fuck knows lol

[Michelle]

It's freaking Michelle.

you are a freaking huge meowning cat.
I know how fabricated your case is.
I will answer at that.

[Michelle]

Michelle or Fayt. Hmm.

haha this is hilarious. We both helped you survive yesterday ans now you find us scum? Are we playing the same game?

You know who else helped me survive? Nova and Nutella. You know who's left in the game? Mac, Nutella, you, Fayt, Nova. You know who's confirmed town? Mac? Who the fuck am I supposed to suspect? Myself? Don't bitch about something irrelevant.

You know what? I don't remeber to ever talk to you on that tone. It's rude. If you are town is meaningless because in the game is one scum left and you have no proof of me being scum, if you are scum it wakes up the dog sleeping inside me. There is no way i'll let you today mislynch me because you discovered a new agenda.

[Michelle]

@Michelle What happened to your suspicion of Fayt?

I need some time to reread.
I came itt late and I see Drago is too vocal into ML me. I read your opinion about him being more town than scum. I see him more scum because he pushed convincingly Long Con and Epi, 2 flipped townies before. Any good wolf can make cases tbh.
Rethinking everything is a good movement rn.

[Michelle]

Alright SCAMPS.

Let's go through the actual motions here instead of the dumb ones. Let's start with GTH.

@Fayt @Dragomir @novaselinenever @nutella @Michelle

Be here in exactly 36 minutes.

3 am is not my fav hour. sorry

[MacDougall]

Alright SCAMPS.

Let's go through the actual motions here instead of the dumb ones. Let's start with GTH.

@Fayt @Dragomir @novaselinenever @nutella @Michelle

Be here in exactly 36 minutes.

3 am is not my fav hour. sorry

Forgiven

[Michelle]

I honestly cannot see where there was a plan to vig Fayt specifically documented. I can see where the plan was to lynch Fayt and vig Jay, but given Jay got lynched the only existence of a "lynch Fayt" plan is in the undertone of the aforementioned plan. Speaking as though there was a clear and decided plan for the vig to vig Fayt is bad faith imo.

And this is the only post anywhere near the EOD that references any kind of vig directive.

If the lynch is JJJ and he flips villager the vig shoudl hit the one who he feels best to flip mafia, he already did a very good job.

As an aside it's interesting that Michelle is referring to the vig as a "he" is it not? Given that Nutella and Fayt are both females are were in the game, is this not revealing that Michelle actually knows who the vig is *cough* because rolecop *cough*?

unfortunately no, idk that info, for me is tricky because in my language words have gender modifiers. Vigilante is male by default.

[Michelle]

[VOTE: Dragomir] aubergine i have to go to work.

I will be back in 8 hours and deff be here at Eod

[Michelle]

Firstly though this need at least few ideas:

So here is why Michelle is bad.

1. Her reads and "pushes" have been her just piggybacking off of others. She was just a supporting role, never a force in the decision of a wagon being created and all of her scum reads only arrived after others have suspected the said player. Thus the supporting role she has been. The only I guess original, if that, was the Fayt vote. http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 70#p556470 this was based on pure bullshit. Just pure bs. I can't count this. It's still a supporting role push cause it only came after LC taked about Fayt being a potential cat.

TMIying Fayt villager rn?
Also what supportive role means in mafia? What crime brings approving a read?

2. She tries to cover up her siding with Rej as pocketing when there was no such thing. Rej only mentioned her like twice and that was to ask for thoughts. The only thing else was that gth "ok" read he gave to her and multiple other players. You cannot tell me you'd be pocketed cause of this. Here, read. http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 85#p554985 http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 63#p555063 I don't buy it. Especially the last one, no reads of her own, just sides with Rej cause she town reads him. Shit, if that doesn't sound like 2 scum buddies trying to help each other, I don't know what does.

The only post i've read before defending Rej was Rej's post because he pinged me.
Pocketing has many levels. A ping is pockety by itself.
You don't buy it? I didn't sell anything.

3. Her progression of reads on me is asinine. I know this sounds like omgus. I don't care. The progression was scummy. So I will use it against her. She went from a hard town read on me http://www.mafiathesyndicate.com/viewto ... 21#p556021 to scum reading me. Yes, I know that reads can change but for her, there was just no progression in it. It was sudden. This also supports the supporting role theory I have on her as she's just been supporting the notion of me being scum. If half the players in this game didn't sus me last DP, she wouldn't either. I guarantee it.

Now, this is my case. Make of it what you will.

My read on you was based on tone and feeling. Now i see you are pushed flipped villagers and have a Fayt dog TMI read. Maybe my feelings are off but my logic is solid.

[Dragomir]

I think I'm going to cry.

[Dragomir]

I'm not actually gonna cry btw.

[novaselinenever]

This was an interesting read